[Miscellanous / Other] Northrend Bound: v1.84 Open Source

Level 12
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Northrend Bound
Brought to you by: Wark

The old kingdom has fallen into disarray.
It is broken and divided, but not all is lost.
The people seek a new leader to face the trials of the North.
Will you rise to the cause?
There will be many challenges and choices. Allies and enemies.
To be a tyrant or a hero, the decision is yours.



All information about the map has been moved to the map thread: Northrend Bound v1.84
Feel free to leave comments or discuss the mod here!
The open source file for v1.84 is available here.
 

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Level 4
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Hello Indirect comrade who loves FOTN...i am the owner of Orc Frontiers it probably isn't featured but you can search it. Best of luck and updates!
 
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Really nice stuff, Wark :) Love the fact you're trying to give FotN a racial emphasis (that map was awesome, I'd love to play it with dwarves!) and that you got plenty of it done already.

I'm sorry I can't provide actual feedback as I'm kinda busy atm, but I'll probably come by to check the map from time to time. All I can say for now is that you need a sexier description in your 1st post =P It is hard to raise interest without screenshots and such.
 
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I can say for now is that you need a sexier description in your 1st post =P It is hard to raise interest without screenshots and such

Thanks Naze! But, that is why I have it here! It is by no means close to completion yet.
I warn you too, this current map is just a test map for the systems. Not the actual map.
I will definitely go into greater detail when I get the real map going. That is where the true fun begins!

Edit:
I still am on the fence for the name. Founders of the East has an orient feel, of the West... maybe...
I am kind of leaning towards making the lore to be more of an alternate universe Azeroth.
For that, I need something fresh.
 
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I will definitely go into greater detail when I get the real map going.

Okay then!

Oh I wasn't serious about Founders of the [insert direction] I mentioned. But now we're at it, it has come to my mind that retaining the word Founders (or maybe North) will have the benefit of having the people relating it with FotN at a glance - they'll know what the map is about and that it may be something based on the original Founders just by the name. If that is your intention, obviously, haha.
 
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retaining the word Founders (or maybe North) will have the benefit
Now this brings us into the realm of philosophy. How exciting!
What is more relevant to FotN: the founders, or the North?
The lore in that mod was in depth, and centered around the mythical land of The North.
But, the whole gameplay was based on your Founder.
What does it mean, to FotN?
 
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Now this brings us into the realm of philosophy. How exciting!

Hahaha =P

It is absurd to surely claim they're founders of anything - we can see they're the founders of society in the phenomenal world, but we can't verify it in the noumenal world. Your map should be called "Most Likely Founders of the North as Experienced by Human Sensorial Perception".
 
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But, why go into the thought of observation when we can simply debate what they were doing there to begin with?
There were towns in that virtual world, man!
Surely they are not THE founders. More like vagabonds and wanderers coming to wage war and add on to existing society.
By this argument, this map therefore should not contain "Founders," but instead "of the North."
But, what of the North? The question remains...
 
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But, why go into the thought of observation when we can simply debate what they were doing there to begin with?
There were towns in that virtual world, man!
Surely they are not THE founders. More like vagabonds and wanderers coming to wage war and add on to existing society.
By this argument, this map therefore should not contain "Founders," but instead "of the North."
But, what of the North? The question remains...

You guys could win a Nobel prize for these arguments....anyway will test map
 
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How about Merchants of the North? I mean this a map with trade and merchant can become kings too.
 
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How about Merchants of the North?
It's a possibility, but that would imply that economics is the primary feature of the game. It may be misleading.
I think I need a more robust noun. Something that stands out and makes sense in context.

On that note, I am going to make it so that there will be 3 victory conditions:
1) Conquest. Be the last undefeated player with your towns and holdings intact!
2) Economic victory: first to 50,000 gold wins. (this plays in with mercantile systems)
3) Heroic victory: be the first to conquer all dungeons and kill all summoned bosses.

Let me think. Nouns:
Heroes, Merchants, Leaders, Kings, Rulers, Adventurers, Wanderers... anything else? I'll probably make a poll.
Also, next test map update coming out with screenshots after I finish the undead race.
 
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Let me think. Nouns:
Heroes, Merchants, Leaders, Kings, Rulers, Adventurers, Wanderers... anything else? I'll probably make a poll.
Also, next test map update coming out with screenshots after I finish the undead race.

What about 'survivors'? I mean the tileset are sunken ruins.
 
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What about 'survivors'? I mean the tileset are sunken ruins.
Survivors? That's a possibility.
However, the REAL map will be a Village Fall tileset. This is nothing but a test map I threw together.

Edit:
After some thought, I finally got an inspired name: Northrend Bound.
I want a title that reflects the focus of this map: the North, in an alternate Warcraft universe.
And with that, I present the next alpha map update: now with the Undead and diplomacy!
 
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Here are the things I noted while playing.
  • Loading time was pretty long, as well as the delay when selecting the map. You know that already though. Have you optimized the map and such? I think that can reduce loading time a bit.
  • Loading screen description described the most basic thing in the game, which is nice and useful.
  • A custom loading screen could be nice, but I suspect you intentionally didn't use one in order to not increase loading time further?
  • A whitsle noise when using the dog whistle would be fitting. Perhaps there's something in the wc3 files?
  • The snow was not fitting to the almost tropical landscape.
  • The trees are dying. I remember this not being the case in FotN. Feels like I should run out pretty soon?
  • I like the dark effect at night.
  • The first time you click "rotate" on a building, it does not work.
  • It would be more fitting to start in a city?
  • Why would there be bandits almost in teh town (south western town)
  • Also, in that same town, a villager keeps attacking a rabbit, but dealing no damage to it. Weird.
  • There are interesting creeps in the middle of the map, but also a bit unfitting, to each other and to the map theme. A hydra and a spider standing next to eachother?
  • The "weevil" bug keeps borrowing and unburrowing all the time.
  • I'm not sure if you can gain that later, but I couldn't attack the gargoyle, since it was flying.
  • Monsters have weird drops like wand of shadowsight. Not very useful, maybe?
  • The obelisks with buyable abilities is a fun addition, but some feels a bit underwhelming. Raise all dead for example may not raise many units at all. I dig the idea though-
  • There are not too many animals to hunt, so a hunting career seems pretty dull.
I saw that terrain was at "0%", but I'll share my thoughts anyway. :)
A major factor that made FotN so enjoyable, that you have missed out on, is the terrain. The terrain is pretty uneventful and uniteresting. You should create your own terrain rather than base it on a blizzard melee map. That's what I'm missing from FotN too: You can't build an as beautiful town in this setting. There you could pick a nice spot in a random location of the world, and think about placing it strategically. Here, there are more obvious spots to build in, which ruind a bit of teh game feel.
The town buildings were good looking and well fitting to the theme (except for the goblin shipyard), but the tileing was boring. Only one tile that does not completely fit a town is present (I'd suggest the village tile path). Also, a few doodad details have been placed around the towns, but there could be a lot more to make them look better.


Its a promising start to something great, but needs more work. :)
 
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I saw that terrain was at "0%", but I'll share my thoughts anyway.
Thank you Rufus.
And yes, I have not started on the real map yet. This map's function is only to test the game's systems and unit balance,
as well as try out some of the monsters that will be present in the final map.
The final map will be, obviously, in the Village Fall tileset.

The trees are dying. I remember this not being the case in FotN. Feels like I should run out pretty soon?
Worry not: this is more of a limiting factor to discourage mass lumber gathering. They regrow!

It would be more fitting to start in a city?
Definitely. I plan to do that.

I am doing as much as I can to reduce that loading time. A lot of it has to do with the Hero abilities unfortunately:
there are about 36 abilities going up to level 57 for my attribute system. I can't get a very decent work around for that.

All around, I am at about 50% complete, and am currently working on the espionage systems.
Thank you for the feedback!
 
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This update, alpha v2.1, will be the last major update until I make the real map.
I have introduced all systems possible for the test map, and tested them in multiplayer as much as I could.

Now, I need the actual map before continuing. Time to terrain!
Deadline for terraining: May 31, 2017. Will update progress on the first post as I go.
 
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Is this a solo project or do you need assistance, I'm willing to help with trigger work

Hello Jays, it's good to hear from you.
This has been solo thus far. Thank you for your offer.
Actually, I've almost finished all of the trigger work. The thing I need to work on is, in fact, the terrain itself. I've got the content, I just need the world.

There are a few things I have not done yet, mostly because I need the map first:
1) The quest system. I was going to base it off buying a powerup off a "Town Center" type structure, then add acquired quests to the "optional" quest side in the help menu.
My idea is three types of quests: NPC raid, similar to how you killed rogue rangers or such; Bounty (kill a wandering elite NPC), and fetch quests.
2) The dungeons. For the dungeons, I was going to try and mimic your style where they reset in the morning and can only be accessed with Heroes at night. I also want to have epic scripted final boss fights with different themes.
3) Regional trade. I was actually going to make a simpler system for now, where things like hides sold for more in the north or ores sold for more in the south. Having a system where prices of commodities fluctuate on supply and demand over time would be nice.

Of course, since this is a remake, I am not outright copying everything.
I wanted to base it in a different universe, with a different take on races and hero development.
Do you have any suggestions on what I could do for the missing systems, or what I should add?

If you want to talk on discord, I've got a server with my mates. I can send you the info in private.
 
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Sure I suppose but it will depend on which route you're going with it, if you're just trying to recreate the experience & add a little here & there to revise it, I'm willing to help. If you're going off course into something completely different then I'll find another crew for it, obviously people want to play the original gameplay with fixes & some added content but while retaining the original vision.
 
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map crashes my game, is this just super huge? weird
It's more like this map is a test map, there's a lot of object data,
and there may be stability issues with the copied blizzard map I am using to test the systems.
When does it crash? When loading, or during gameplay?

If it's while loading, do not "alt + tab". And if you do minimize the game,
even if it pops up with a message saying "does not respond," it will still load in.
It does take a while to load.
 
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Level 12
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A LOT of fixes have been made, terraining has been done, and I've finally released the bare bones of the actual map.

Rufus: It would be more fitting to start in a city? A major factor that made FotN so enjoyable, that you have missed out on, is the terrain
Good news! Everyone now starts in the central town.
Now to work on that terrain some more ... it's going slow and steady.
 
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Hello , fellow Fotn fan here , it's been so long since i've heard anything about this and i kinda lost hope for this map after all this time but here you are :D . I see that you are going on a slightly different type of fotn , but considering the content and all the other stuff you added until now it sure is going to be great . The weapon based skills are great indeed , it adds diversity and a class-like feeling without taking any of the freedom .While the only help i can give you is simple feedback and the perspective of another player , you should give a try on these maps that might interest you as they have similar features to your map or ideas soon to be implemented : either with the economic system , RPG elements or immersion you can try Rival Dynasties and Lords of Middle earth ; or for some interesting or heroic items/skills to get from some bosses or epic events try Crimson Expedition and Unholy Invasion , those might give you some inspiration.
 
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Thank you for the feedback, EvilRO.
I'd appreciate any ideas or criticism you can give. Everything is not finished yet, as is evident by the emptiness for the current beta map.
I myself have a lot of plans for the dungeons, events, and summoned bosses on the map.
Legendary quality loot will definitely be a thing (higher quality than crafted tier 3 gear), and specifically obtained from the boss encounters.
However, I do want to balance hero progression with army building. So, it may not be too overpowered.
 
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I noticed that "SoulReaper" that int item with lifesteal causes the game to crash , every single time i purchase it , also how about some tech trees? to get rid of the feeling of altered melee like , let's get rid of that pattern in every race with infantry archer and cavalry where every race is pretty much the same in stats , how about some troops that require more food but have the pros and cons of their race , for the dwarves having some units with great blunt and high armor but being slower than the others like 80% ms , and those types of troops should have a limit i guess depending on their strenghts or cost , about the tech trees they could give slight bonuses to one or two types of troops this way someone could specialize in either infantry cavalry or casters.
 
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let's get rid of that pattern in every race with infantry archer and cavalry where every race is pretty much the same in stats
I've actually already done this. There's quite a few balance differences between each race.
In particular:
- Humans have more diplomacy options, aren't as powerful military wise, and have no air units. However, they have strong casters, all infantry are armored, and are better defensively.
- Dwarves have more mechanical units, are more expensive, have slightly greater hp and damage than humans, and no polearm type units.
- Orcs are stronger and have more hp than other races, but at the cost of more food.
- Undead have cheaper and weaker units, but get more upgrades later and have more options to undermine allies and enemies. They also have no polearm unit, have a flying siege unit/transport, and a heavy infantry unit.
- Elves have less armor than all other races, but are much more mobile and all units are ranged.

I also made an effort to make each races' units have unique abilities.
As for the soul reaper crashing the game, I'll have to check why that's happening.

EDIT:
There was a problem with the icon when I imported it to the new map. Changes are made for the next beta version
 
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Moments like this make me happy about the W3 community, there are so many passionate people still left!

As for the story, It would be cool to keep the original one. Very few people know, but the map was based on a light novel/anime called "Spice and wolf". That's also a cool name for a map in my view. I love that you are remaking the map, really don't like the theme of it. The first one had personality, even if the story was minimal. (that's my first impression)

Anyway, downloading the map right now. How can I help as a tester? Tell me what you need to know
 
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Anyway, downloading the map right now. How can I help as a tester? Tell me what you need to know
Well robizeratul, what I need to check mostly is balance. Specifically: weapon skills for heroes, techtree requirements for any race (I don't expect anyone to try all races) and feedback on the map's general aesthetics (for what is completed thus far).

The story itself will not be based on "spice and wolf." I want a more unique story mixed with an overall story-arch that players will run into. I want to link each dungeon and boss together with some subtle lore that you will find around the map, of which will play an important role in the heroic victory condition. Clues, treasure finding and such.
 
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I played yesterday, and I played today. As someone who spent hundreds of hours playing the original, I have much to say and I will try to make good points! Hope some will be helpful. These are in random order after playing the map for a few hours.

(one question though, how do I get the other towns ? I got only the basic one)

1)Is this the maximum map size? I think the original was bigger. Even if there's a lot of loading this is the type of map where the bigger the better.

2)If you want a different theme, I think the different races is a good approach. I would disassociate from the Warcraft story so you can make something unique and original. This way you can add as many races as you want.

3)Make races unique. Each should be good at a few things and bad at others. I know this is implemented, but I think the difference should be drastic (from the description I don't think it's drastic enough). Picking a race should make you feel like playing a different type of game.

4)Make a tiered system of progression. This is something I didn't like in the original, you could do too much. I would really like a system like this, or something similar. It's also (fairly) easy to implement and add more features in the future... So for example:
Tier 1: Peasant You can gather wood,plant crops,fish, hunt etc. This will give players the a very basic tutorial, they will know how the game works and they will be forced to use every building.
Tier 2:Builders/Warriors/Mages/Thieves.(only an example). So after playing for 20-30 min(or more) you get to make a choice. What do you like most? How will you play the game? You already know the basics so you will not feel cheated.
Tier 3: Builders:Offensive/Deffensive/Economy. Warriors: Offensive/Defensive/Sneaky Mages: Offensive/Defensive/Summoning and so on. You will be able to do the other things as well, but these things will be done better.
Tier 4: Race. This is tricky and a lot of fun. Instead of giving people 1 race choice, give them multiple. So you can have alliances. You can be a lvl 1 orc, lvl 1 elf lvl 1 human. Or you could be a lvl 3 undead, Or a lvl 2 and lvl 1.

Each could add more features/upgrades/buffs to your faction. So being a lvl 1 elf could give you an attackspeed buff to everyone. You could get specialized elven units that do a specific thing. If you are an offensive warrior you could get an archer, if you are a defensive builder a tree protector and so on. If you are higher lvl you could upgrade your units and get new ones. Same for more obscure benefits, like elfs going invisible at night, humans being good at diplomacy and undead using less upkeep(cuz they are dead)

This will give you a huge replay-ability factor! Some combinations will be better than other of course, but this is mostly a game for fun, not to play competitively. So there's no issue with that.


5) Put the sea in the middle. This is also something I disliked about the original. The southern see was almost useless. By doing this drastic measure you could bring new life into the map. Put it in the middle, Add some Islands. Make the shores really good spots to be and add options to build defensive structures (maybe very little islands where you can build a tower or towers on the water). Add a few small lakes and connect them with rivers.

This would add so much strategy and replay-ability to the map. Suddenly naval and air warfare matters. If you build your town near to the water you can get bombarded with long range ships. Or an enemy could unload his troupes near you in an instant. Same for lakes. Suddenly scouting and controlling the lakes is important, you know when a player is after you. Add some NPC events and monsters/pirates and the water becomes a very risk/reward situation. Same for Islands. Sure they are small and hard to defend, but you get plenty of benefits if you can pull it off...also, it's fun to have a small base on an island :D

6)Keep the troop numbers relatively low. This might be personal, but I don't like having a lot of units in a map like this, it makes them feel cheap. I rather have 3 horsemen,2 soldiers and 2 archers than a ton of units. It makes them feel valued and you will want to keep them alive, instead of just killing them over and over. A food limit of 50 would be ideal, with each faction having units that cost 4-10 food. So when a 10 food monstrosity comes at you, you run! This will also increase the benefits of microing.

7)Hero specializations. Instead of having a BUILD option, give the main hero a book. That frees up on slot. Each upgrade that you make(from number 4. or others) should give you some passive bonuses and the option to change into specific heroes. In the original you hero became pretty much useless and everyone had the same type. Here if you go for a Builder make it easier to build/repair buildings (or other perks, like repair at no cost). If he is a warrior than give him some bonus stats. At the end of the game(and depending on the race and choices made) he could become another hero that is perfect for the play style.

8)Make specialized cities. Just like in the original just at a higher degree. Orc cities could sell weapons armor while elven cities could sell more magic stuff. You could raise your reputation (and unlock certain weapons/crops/buildings) by choosing the right specialization (that's the easy way) or you could do it the hard way by doing quests, giving tribute and so on. You could add small villages where certain races work together and so on, to spice things up from the "main" towns. By raising the reputation of one city your reputation in another. So you need to think. Options to interact with friendly cities would also be cool. You could ask for help if needed, get a loan of resources and so on. You could also have quests/events that build alliances between cities and you could also destroy them if you really wanted to. It's up to you, there are many things you can do.

9)Lower the number of resources. In the original there's just too much clicking. Instead of having a lot of pelts or fish it would be nicer to get only a few. Again, same logic as in number 6. When you finally get a pelt or some animal bones, you know it matters.

10)I don't know if it's a bug or not, but the unit actions are all over the place. I don't see any reason to change those, it's really annoying after playing W3 for years.

That's all I can think about now...It's a lot, hope some ideas are worth considering and will make this map better. Anyway now I'm trying to figure out how to play the other races :D Having a lot of fun with the map and I'm really optimistic about it and your skill as a mapmaker and dedication... even if I wrote a wall of text haha
 
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Now this is very helpful. Frankly, this game is in its baby stages, and I am setting it up to be a monstrosity in terms replayability and player options.
Now, down to explanations on development direction and answers to your questions:

one question though, how do I get the other towns ? I got only the basic one
The terrain is far from finished. I will literally build roads joining 2 of the towns, and the island town in the south can only be accessed when you can build naval units.
Naval units are purchased at shipyards, or built using a shipwright.

Is this the maximum map size? I think the original was bigger.
This map's actually bigger than the original. FotN is a 224x192 map. This one is 256x256. It's the biggest I can make it.

I would disassociate from the Warcraft story so you can make something unique and original
This map's universe will not have anything related to the Warcraft universe, other than the races.
It will also reference some things from the Guild Wars universe, especially the skill/weapon system.

Make races unique. Same for more obscure benefits, like elfs going invisible at night, humans being good at diplomacy and undead using less upkeep
This will definitely be on the to-do list later. I like your idea to give bonuses to your race selection based on your leader's level. As for race selection, I had a lot of mixed feedback on it. I kind of want to make it so that you can build up into any race techtree regardless of your starting leader's race.

Now, 1 way I am going to make races unique, is by your choice of "Hero." This will be different from your starting "leader." See, you only get - 1 - Hero. But, you have 10 Heroes to choose from. Choose 1 hero, it locks out any other "advanced" techtrees from all races.
For example: (not implemented yet)
You go human, and you pick the "Templar."
This unlocks upgrades for priests and knights. This locks out upgrades for sorcerers, arcane towers, and spell breakers.

Put the sea in the middle.
Unfortunately, development is so far ahead that this will not be possible. It's more a design choice. However! I do not plan to make the sea useless.
For one: A major trade port is in the southern sea on an island. Trade will play a large role on income. Control of the sea will be an option in your economy, and if you are uncontested, it will pay off.
There will be an inland lake network.
There will be island base options.
Battleships with long range artillery will be a threat/tactical option.

Keep the troop numbers relatively low.
Now this is something I have been playing around with, and also have gotten mixed feedback on. Some people actually want huge, large scale macro battles.
I want to get the better of both worlds. Thus, I may improve the unit ranking system. Right now, units that kill things gain ranks. Higher ranks mean more damage, armor, health regen, and spell resistance. I may change how units rank up, too, like from using "training." On that note, back to naval units, your first battleship becomes a "flagship" with extra abilities and max rank.

Currently, the food cap is 120. I may increase food costs of all units across all races. To balance the use of large armies, upkeep will not only affect gold but also lumber income and sold items. Larger armies will be detrimental to economy.
On top of that, unit counters will mean certain units are much better against others. If you are smart with your squads, you could outflank, outmaneuver, and take down a much larger force with proper scouting or espionage.
For example:
- cavalry is fast and round all, and generally counters infantry, archers and siege.
- polearm units counter cavalry hard core. Even though cavalry are generally tougher, equal numbers of pikemen vs knights would leave pikemen the victor.

Instead of having a BUILD option, give the main hero a book
This is something I can't do, unfortunately. It will take... an extremely large amount of jass coding, extra testing, and maybe another year of development.
Some things in WC3 are just hard coded. So, all leaders will have that build option.

I did make it so that certain weapons and armor require a certain amount of STR, INT, or AGI.
Now, that doesn't seem like much on the surface, until you look at how weapons function.
This plays into your statement on progression:
Each weapon has 3 tiers. Same for armor. All abilities given by weapons are affected by a certain stat.
This, in turn, opens up around 120 different character builds for your leader, all based on their equipment selection and stat allocation.
For versatility, I also added options to reset your stats and try different builds: mage, warrior, assassin, or hybrid types.

Make specialized cities.
Right now, each city is specialized as so:
Droknar (northern city) is based on mining and magic. It's the only city with a mage college, and it sells ores and such. It buys farming goods, hides, and cloth at a higher price.
Ashford (starting city) is based on farming and hunting. So, it sells related products to this. It buys ores and alchemical products at a higher price.
Cavalon (island city) is based on fishing. It buys inland fish, ores and alchemical goods at a high price, and sells specialty goods and ocean fish.
I will have smaller towns throughout the map with Orcish themes or Elven themes, but generally the neutral townsfolk will be human. This is a design choice for the lore: the North was formally a broken kingdom. This will also explain why anyone who picks "human" as their race has more diplomatic options, though are generally weaker military wise.

Lower the number of resources
I don't think this is a wise idea. I want players to have options on how they get their gold. If they want to quest with their leader and say "bullocks" to base building, this will be entirely doable. I want players to choose:
Base building and large armies? OK.
Small armies of specialized and elite troops? Sure.
Your leader as a 1 man army? Can do, but you need to work towards it.

I don't know if it's a bug or not, but the unit actions are all over the place.
Actually, I designed it that way. Reason being is so that a "QWER" system makes sense for the leader.
Again, this is because of goddamned hard coding for that build button. I can't move or do anything with that "build" button. So, this is a work around.
I can put it back, but... then everything is a mess. It's frustrating.


Thank you very much for the feedback. You gave me some things to think about, and some ideas to change ways to customize your play experience. In particular: troop quality, food costs, techtree requirements based on the "Hero" (not leader)
 
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Level 6
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I am glad this was helpful. I know that some if it will not be, just take what you need hehe.

1)I get it, it's not easy to change the map. It's a good idea to make the lake in the middle. You could edit it just a little bit and get a huge impact and more fun. Make the rivers bigger so boats can move arround the map(maybe only small,specialized boats not the huge ones). Make the southern sea bigger by cutting in more in the western side. You also need some port cities, just for consistency :D. Where you have bridges, you could add teleporters. So if a boat comes there it teleports to the other side. This way both land units and boats can move there. It's very easy to make I'm sure.

2)In order to please most people you could fix the unit population/strenght problem easily. Give units multiple ranks, but when they advance you will need food and resources, maybe even an item. So you could buy 30 horsemen and send them to different parts of the map and do a lot of damage, or buy 10 and upgrade them slowly. You will need an armor and sword to get max level.

This way you can make tiered units much stronger without breaking balance. Maybe some can even become heroes or " mini heroes ".

3)I like how the weapons and armor works. I wasn't aware that the book is hard to implement. Check out a map " heroes and empires" and choose " builder" when you start you game. There you will find a builders book with buildings in them. You could also get inspired by how upgrades work in that game. So if you want to upgrade your tower you need 4 rock and 1 wood. Put them in the towers inventory and hit upgrade. You can get these by buying or by killing monsters. I think it's a great idea. Makes structures feel more valuable and powerful, because you don't only lose money but time and effort if it's destroyed

4)I was taking about the western Island. Every skeleton there dropped some bones. It was too much I think...but I agree it's hard to find the sweet spot. This is a really minor issue though, so it doesn't matter that much.

5)The leader is really interesting concept. I like the idea most that he changes based on your play style and choices.

6)A minor idea that came to me. Could you buff/debuff units based on where they stand? So if you are on a mountain you get a "high altitude" debuff, if you are near the coast you get a " breeze" buff and so on. This could be positive/negative at the same time, based on what it affects.

now I will try to play again. I still don't know how to get the other races. Are they not implemented yet?

ANd yes, I will say again. I'm really impressed with what you are doing :D that's why I write these walls of text haha. For this I'm out of ideas. If you need something specific tested or an opinion on something just write here.
 
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I still don't know how to get the other races. Are they not implemented yet?
You select your race on the map lobby, actually. If you pick undead, you start with an undead leader. Human, starts with human. Random starts with a dwarf.

I have taken a lot of your suggestions to heart and have changed a lot of the code.
In particular, food costs are higher, and I improved the unit ranking system. I also rearranged buttons once again... but leaders don't get a complete "QWER" system.
Units now rank up through combat experience. Like with everything, I included detailed info on this in the Help menu (F9).
This means that if you put time into "training" your units, they will be more powerful and better for microing (since you want to keep elite ranks alive).
Alternatively, if you have abundant resources, you could say sod training and just mass units. Quantity over quality, the choice is yours.

Also, I made player races not fixed. I did this previously, and wanted to see how fixed races go. I think for overall balance, any player regardless of starting race should be able to use the other races if they build up to it.

You can check this out in this latest update: beta v0.3. I really should work on terrain more...
 
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Level 6
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I just played it for an hour. Well, there's not much to say, things are going in the right direction but there's a lot more to do! This is my last post, will do another one maybe in a few weeks when something big changes.

1) Told you, look at heroes and empires map. Or you could just add another unit, like a backpack. There you could put the lvl up and build button. You could also remove the gather resources button ( or make it dependent on items like in this map: very similar so you can get some inspiration Medieval Villagers 1.08d ). I don't know how hard it is to link stats to a " backpack" but the map Gladiators Requiem (just go to the new page) has this feature. I don't how it can be done, but many others solved the "not enough space for buttons" problem.

2)When making the terrain try to make it more efficient. It is good if it looks pretty but it's not a requierment. There are some islands and lands where there's just nothing, wasted space. If not some bosses than you could add something there ( thinking of the shipwreck). Of course I realize there's a lot to be done. so this is like more a philosophy/advice than any criticism...

3)Make buildings smaller. The undead buildings where huge! Really hard to move arround them...Anyway, also a minor complaint.

4) I like how the map looks, a lot more " natural " than the last one. Any thoughts on making dungeons "external" like many of them where in Fotn? I don't know what to say about this, but it worked well in the original.

5)A minor note: agility is stupidly overpowered. you can get 30-40 maybe more chance to evade an attack.


I don't know what else to say. I will try out and give my opinion on something specific if needed. I will come back in a few weeks when things change and maybe write another comment. Can't wait to see what you can pull of !
 
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look at heroes and empires map. Or you could just add another unit, like a backpack. There you could put the lvl up and build button. You could also remove the gather resources button
I have looked at the Heroes and Empires map.
The way they set up skills, levels and structures is all by using spell books, triggers and a multiboard to keep track of skill levels.
There are some issues with doing it this way, since I need that multiboard for showing times (which will be linked to events), player status and reputation.
I do like the idea of Heroes and Empires, and it is a different map type.

I do have the "gather" ability as a weapon based skill. It is removed when you drop the pickaxe weapon.
For backpacks, that's actually what the "Pack Horse" unit is for: item management.
Its sole purpose is "right click" to auto-pickup items. You can train them yourself at your Inn, or buy them at a Tavern in any given town.

I would like to have that backpack feature as in Medieval Villagers, but I have no idea how it is implemented. It seems to use a hero as a dummy unit which is invisible and just follows the hero around. Hm. I could put the auto-loot feature from the Pack Horse onto a dummy unit maybe...

agility is stupidly overpowered
Yes, yes it is :D
But, have you seen a full-out Strength hero in action? It is also pretty damn overpowered with Mithril (t3 strength) armor equipped.
Intel based heroes with a staff also will obliterate Agility based heroes since that evasion does nothing against spell damage.
In short, all leader builds will be OP if you level them up and upgrade their gear, and therefore balanced in comparison to an army's effective strength.

As for outlaying islands being empty space, I will be giving them one... huge... advantage: Trade Ships.
Trade Ships will periodically stop at inhabited islands, giving islanders a place to sell goods or otherwise purchase a fishing boat if they are stranded.

Make buildings smaller
This is something I won't be doing. I may reduce the undead's ziggurat size to a 2x2 structure, but otherwise space for large bases is meant to be a luxury. You'll have to do some city planning and pick locations strategically. Of course, I check each possible base location to see if it can fit a full base. These locations can be "pinged" in an upcoming tutorial feature.

EDIT:
I added a kick-ass backpack system. It'll be released for testing along with major terrain updates in July.
 
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Level 2
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I like what you have done to the terrain until now , the right down quarter looks very well made and blends well with the map , its a pretty good start.

I found a little visual bug or so , the damage and armor upgrades from the blacksmith work on the dwarves and raise their armor and damage , but it shows still tier 0 , it doesn't really bother or ruin anything i just wanted to point that out.

About the map size and base building , the thing is while having a larger map some building sizes are much bigger than in the old Fotn , what was great about the old Fotn is that the base spots had strategic value , were rather small or medium compared to the ones i see in your map. A small or big base shouldnt reward or punish you just by not allowing you to raise all your buildings , that's just stupid . I know i give many refferences to the old Fotn now but the great thing it had about base building was that it allowed you to make most of your buildings while leaving a little space for customisation , it was about hmm where should i place those walls and towers not if i can place my barracks inside my base or other crucial stuff . The last thing about bases is that if they are too big or require to much space other players will simply collide and enter in conflict too soon for no good reason and not only that but your map will overall suffer , the more space bases take the less space you have on the rest of the map to make great environments (which are not needed but it will feel like an empty map without a soul if most of it is to be filled by players and buildings that will not be that used) , spots for quests ,events ,bosses , lore etc. So i suggest to make some structures smaller , as they are needlesly large at the moment , like making a 6x6 or 5x5 into 5x6 or a 4x5 at least , just a size smaller .

About the sea , its taking as much space as it is needed now , leave the size like that . An advice that i can give is to make 1 or 2 big islands that come from the bottom of the map , this way you will give the illusion of bigger islands while taking less space , giving freedom to make something else with that bonus space you just got. You could also make an estuary (you kinda did i guess with the mid river), you know to connect 1 large river to the center or slightly below the center of the map with the sea, which could be an important economical point for players to battle for and take control of it and the resources it has , a special kind of sweet-water fish? or better lets make it a sulfur deposit . or the trading route itself. If you wish you could make another 1 or so but smaller so you could have variety and give people choices to make.

The north is a broken kingdom and this is the key point of this map right? Why dont we try to draw that lore a little and shape it better right?
The main kingdoms/factions have been thrown into chaos , there have been some events that caused them to become unstable :
1. The orc tribes have been reduced to a bunch of thieves and pillagers after the last winter has halved their numbers , the incursions of the orcs had become necessary for the survival of the orcs. Can they be reasoned with? ( you can link the cause of the winter and other events with the Winter/Lunar fox , a spirit boss with frosty abilities , or you can make it an event , you decide)
2. Calamity has struck upon the resilient dwarves of the mountains as the gold disease/plague launched them into a civil war.
3. Once the rulers of the pristine forests of these lands have been hunted down to extinction by the greed of other races and the advancement of Alchemy.
4.Humans - the mising link of the puzzle. Will they bring order to the north or ...


What do you think about a trading system where every minute or two a trading caravan with some gold 100-300 and a resource specific to the city it came from spawns and goes on the route the city to give income?
Making some villages (some race specific some not)that can be conquered or managed or checkpoints here and there could give the game some sense of worth and fulfillment , also some advantages as controlling that is not just a point in the trading system and a scouting zone but could be worth some natural resources.

I thought about that and you probably already had something planned for this , but about the factions the orcs,dwarves,humans,elves,undead. When you add them later , you should upgrade the diplomacy system as it will later prove rather rusty , just talking at the beggining seems fine, but how should just talking bring you to the status of adored or saviour of said faction? it doesn't make sense . How about ranking that diplomacy from -1000 to 1000 in quarters of 250. The way to go beyond tolerated at 250 or well-known at 500 should be by becoming active in the faction's problems and aiding them directly from 750 (worthy ally) to 1000(hero/saviour) by receving special quests that are faction related and have great effect on the whole world/map and the other factions , by that i mean the respective faction grows in strenght and may even reign supreme.
It would be nice if depending on your relationships factions react differently (more than the bonus of random "gifts" at the moment ) for example if you worked your way up to 250 points you could get acces to some unique faction only items such as a banner or a signet with an aura? from 500 you could also hire some special troops from the faction. As of going negative if you are -250 you can't ally that faction or trade with it , from -500 to more you will get raided/attacked by your enemy faction with small numbers, the numbers of the attackers growing with -750 and -1000 being the moment you become a Nemesis and an actual threat to the faction by being close to annihilating it or reducing it to ruin.

Adding events/quests/adventures similar to guild wars 2 , when every once in a while for example a town is attacked by either bandits and if you are nearby you will have to choose if you will participate , be neutral or even side with the bandits to loot whatever you can (if you kill at least a bandit in the mission or deal some damage you are considered to have helped/participated). Escorting a caravan from one point to another safely while facing the various encounters and troubles on the road. Defending a strategic point against a sieging faction for a minute or two. and more but we will get into that later.
This is everything that i could type at the moment ,this is kind of a sample as there is more complex stuff to add but i want to know what you think about that. Would you like to play a game sometime?
 
Level 12
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I do like the idea of trade routes going inland from sea, and I am definitely going to widen rivers for such.

What do you think about a trading system where every minute or two a trading caravan with some gold 100-300 and a resource specific to the city it came from spawns and goes on the route the city to give income?
I fully intend to spawn packhorses in every town that hold a specific good in their inventory (possibly to sell?) and travel between towns.

Now, this brings it to why there is that reputation system, what it is, and what the "old kingdom" is.
The "townsfolk" are meant to be denizens of the shattered kingdom, and that reputation system is your "standing" with them. They are looking for a new leader.
Alignment is also a morality meter (think dungeons and dragons: good, neutral, evil, chaotic, lawful).
I want players to have a choice to harass the neutral faction and be a tyrant, or to be a righteous leader.
Right now, it's as follows:
- use any espionage technique from the spy or thief: -10 reputation
- use the item "Timmy's Leg": -20 reputation and nearby guards attack you
- murder a "townsfolk": -50 reputation
- talk to a "townsfolk": +5 reputation
- offer tribute to "townsfolk": +250 reputation

I plan to add a lot more options to this. Specifically: what you can do to help out local areas, control specific towns (gain control of guard towers and guards), and definitely quest related things as you mentioned.

Now, if you have -500 reputation and under (hated), all towns become hostile to you (you murdered a bunch of their dudes). Players killing "hated" players gain reputation.
If you have -250 reputation (despised) and below, you get no trade discounts from the "silver tongue" achievement.
Above +300 reputation (admired), villagers start giving you useful items when you talk to them, and you can use more diplomacy options when you are human. If you are defeated, the conquering player loses reputation.
Above +700 reputation, if they are conquered, the conquering player loses a lot more reputation.

It's simple right now, but there are benefits and drawbacks to killing townsfolk:
- Obvious drawback, towns attack you when you try to sell goods and are "hated". No discounts when "despised."
- The benefits, however: banditry and quick gold. Townsfolk drop unique items and gold. I also plan to make a "bandit" techtree to support this later. Take note: banditry is doable now, but I highly recommend getting stuff to help you go invisible to sell goods in town.

And the big question: what happened to the old kingdom? Well, I have something big planned for that. The map itself will tell the story, and I don't want to spoil it ;P
This latest update has NPCs that hint about what happened in the kingdom. Much more will come.

Adding events/quests/adventures similar to guild wars 2
Dynamic events and quests will be a thing. I want this map to be alive, and this will also play into the alignment/reputation system.

About the map size and base building
This latest update addresses those issues. I've finished a bunch more terrain, and personally tested each base location to make sure you can build an entire base there with dwarves, elves, humans, orcs and undead.
I've also added a backpack system, and improved other systems that were bugged or inefficient (hunting comes to mind...)
Remember m8: you can select your race on the map lobby before you click "Start Game"
 
Level 2
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Personally the ranking system seems rather easy to me and still at the beggining , maybe giving it 1 more rank up to 400 or 500? and also giving hp to the unit 25-75/100hp.
How about the tech trees? For humans is there going to be a templar or religious order that gives acces to a few tanky heal oriented troops? Or a pirate tech tree which focuses on ranged gunpowder units that ocasionally throw bombs and swashbucklers with some crit and evasion chance?
Maybe its just me but the silver tongue kinda doesnt work, it says talk to 40 people or so , i talked to more and seem not to receive it , this may be the same for other traits im not sure as i may or may not have done the requirements (cuz i never received the trait :( ) so could you take a short look on that?
Is there going to be similar hero skills similar to the old Fotn? Such as the ones in Werewolf Transylvania where depending on the way you chose to play you will unlock 1 or a few skills that may prove useful later , however it will be hard to unlock all of them or will take time.
After the update i played it once noticed that as a human i could only pick the human race :? is it a bug or is it intended. Also i can't play it anymore after that first time , loading gets stuck in the middle then w3 not responding but it may be just me.
 
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Level 12
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755
A rank-up system that gives hp to individual units is impossible. I tried it, and there's something hard-coded with the +hp abilities for items.
How about the tech trees? For humans is there going to be a templar or religious order that gives acces to a few tanky heal oriented troops? Or a pirate tech tree
Branching techtrees could be a thing, I like that idea. I'll have to figure something out.

the silver tongue kinda doesnt work, it says talk to 40 people or so
It works still, yes. However, those 40 villagers do not include town guards. I may change that.

Is there going to be similar hero skills similar to the old Fotn?
Nope, that's what the weapon skill system's all about.
I made achievements be like boosts to whatever economic skill or trade you focus on, rather than something that unlocks gimmicky skills.
You hunt a lot? Bonus hides!
You fish a lot? Greater chance to catch fish!
That sort of thing. It takes a long time to unlock one, which encourages players to focus on a trade to get a boost.

loading gets stuck in the middle then w3 not responding
I have not tested anything with load saves. It's a saved game you're having problems with, right? And, was it working before?
 
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I've taken a lot of suggestions to heart and have advanced the map's terrain further.
(This update also serves as a forum bump.)

The backpack system's improved, base locations are more than large enough to hold a full racial town,
and there's plans for game modes with more diplomatic options.
I'm really going to have to finish a tutorial for all this... hmm

Next update will be the map's release out of beta, coming sometime between the end of July and the middle of August.
 
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Level 2
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Tried for first time the map in multiplayer with a bot , the problem is you can't change the races from random so everyone was dwarves, after the beta is done , I guess you will make the dungeons have some repeatability? or some monsters inside respawn after the night is over. I thought that it would be great if you put difficulty levels on dungeons, like normal dungeon and after you finish it you can pick Heroic difficulty , making it 1.5x harder or something like that , because I made lvl 50 on hero and soloed the dungeon quite easily (I know I'm strange), or make the difficulty/dungeon scale with the number of players ?inside? or simply a requirement of 2-3 players. Depends on what you have in mind.
One guy out of nostalgia asked if there is gonna be the quiz from FOTN , but i was wondering if later you have in mind to add a mini game not necessarily a quiz. Everyone could help with some suggestions to make it simple but fun.
Minor thing: Glad that animals respawn , but it's a little strange they spawn the same animal in the same place every time don't you think? I don't know how hard it is and i hope it doesn't bother you ,but could you make some of those spawns a little bit randomized? (To make it rather similar to Werewolf Transylvania where animals spawn "randomly" and wander or give a similar feeling) For example 15% for bear , 25% Wolf ,30% Deer and 30% rabbit.
Possible Bugs: Undead heroes dont revive instantly ,but they should ,right? at the hero altar.If not im sry.
Was playing undead when i noticed that but the first hero and also the alchemist (i was playing that when i noticed ,others seemed to work fine, i'll tell you if i notice anything else) but the agility wasnt giving any evasion or it didnt work vs the "neutral" town. I had quite a lot of agi around 70 to test it well , and i wasnt unlucky or anything , so I'm not sure if i somehow bugged it once or thats how it is from the start.
 
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Level 12
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I guess you will make the dungeons have some repeatability?
I thought that it would be great if you put difficulty levels on dungeons.
I most definitely plan to not only make dungeons reset at night, but also make them spawn higher level monsters based on the hero's level.
The difficulty will increase based on the first hero to enter that dungeon at night.

One guy out of nostalgia asked if there is gonna be the quiz from FOTN
I did not like the quiz thing in FotN because I felt it made things unfair for new players, and that periodic pop-up text was annoying. Instead, I will be doing something else for quick gains... it involves an arena somewhere on the map. There will also be, ahem. "Road Signs" of equal opportunity, and maybe a couple bridge trolls.

Could you make some of those spawns a little bit randomized?
Right now I am using a workable, basic system for animal respawns. My initial idea is that certain animals are available in certain areas. I may make it so rabbit and wolves spawn in the south, where bears, deer and wolves spawn in the north.

Possible Bugs: Undead heroes dont revive instantly
The agility wasnt giving any evasion.
Yea, I forgot to give the undead altar the ability to instantly revive things. That's a bug. I'll also retest Agility. As it is now, it gives 0.5% evasion per point in Agility.

Edit: Agility is working as intended, even against neutral guards. A lvl 50 Apothecary with all point in Agility has about a 27% chance to evade.


(The map was based on an anime called Spice and Wolf - this is the anime's map)
The game development's at too late a stage unfortunately to change the terrain and layout.
This game's going to have a different story to it, and I promise it will be engaging.
 
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