New team leader for Warcraft 3 Reforged?

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Do we finally have a face (and spokesperson?) for the Warcraft 3 Reforged developers team? Some interesting tweets suggests that Holly Longsdale is the one in charge of the Warcraft 3 team. Our affiliates at Back2Warcraft has some of the latest:

 
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Oh hey! I didn't see this until today.

Maybe the WoW community's "leaks" that Warcraft 3 is going to get a second "more true to the original" remaster might be true if these executives bothered to think about it this much.

In my opinion, making a 3rd graphics toggle in Reforged is going to make any attempt at custom modding even harder so I hope what I heard from the WoW people on YouTube was a hoax. A lot of stuff on YouTube is a hoax, so maybe that's how it is.

But I'm not really sure how these people could make Reforged any better, because they are beholden to the shareholders. It's like when I applied to Blizzard's "Lead Developer of Reforged" position to see if I could help with Warcraft 3. Obviously they totally ignored me, but when I daydreamed about what I would have done if I were there, I was filled with the ever-living sense of existential dread and the realization that I cannot possibly imagine making Reforged better because of how much everyone and everything to do with it is in a certain kind of disarray and social disagreement. Any step in any direction is a step backwards from a different standpoint. We seem to be uniquely poised for everything to get worse.

So, I hope these guys take their time with Patch 1.33 because as far as I can tell, when we get to the nitty gritty details of how the engine works in my limited experience Patch 1.33 is a buggy mess compared to Patch 1.32. And I don't really think they can fix it, because there's probably not a financial incentive to do that.

please don't harass her if an update goes wrong, it'll just make us look childish once MS rolls in next year

This is really good advice. Because actually, with Patch 1.33 or even if they cancelled it, things are uniquely poised to get worse. It will get worse for Warcraft III modding and related hobbies before it gets better, if it ever does get better. It's not time to be angry anymore. It's time to fix anything we can fix... before the ship sinks.
 
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Oh hey! I didn't see this until today.

Maybe the WoW community's "leaks" that Warcraft 3 is going to get a second "more true to the original" remaster might be true if these executives bothered to think about it this much.

In my opinion, making a 3rd graphics toggle in Reforged is going to make any attempt at custom modding even harder so I hope what I heard from the WoW people on YouTube was a hoax. A lot of stuff on YouTube is a hoax, so maybe that's how it is.

But I'm not really sure how these people could make Reforged any better, because they are beholden to the shareholders. It's like when I applied to Blizzard's "Lead Developer of Reforged" position to see if I could help with Warcraft 3. Obviously they totally ignored me, but when I daydreamed about what I would have done if I were there, I was filled with the ever-living sense of existential dread and the realization that I cannot possibly imagine making Reforged better because of how much everyone and everything to do with it is in a certain kind of disarray and social disagreement. Any step in any direction is a step backwards from a different standpoint. We seem to be uniquely poised for everything to get worse.

So, I hope these guys take their time with Patch 1.33 because as far as I can tell, when we get to the nitty gritty details of how the engine works in my limited experience Patch 1.33 is a buggy mess compared to Patch 1.32. And I don't really think they can fix it, because there's probably not a financial incentive to do that.



This is really good advice. Because actually, with Patch 1.33 or even if they cancelled it, things are uniquely poised to get worse. It will get worse for Warcraft III modding and related hobbies before it gets better, if it ever does get better. It's not time to be angry anymore. It's time to fix anything we can fix... before the ship sinks.

Even with the new team and what not, I do not believe that they will dedicate much time into it, my reason being that development cost is expensive, how many people do you guys think they have on the project now? from sources we know they had like 60 people or something before on the classic team, that's A LOT of money but it's alright for the development of the game (yet they were really slow to do things)...

How many do you guys think they have now? we are expecting them to do as many changes as before if not more, so if they think the same way they must have at least close to the same as before, a low estimate would be 100k a month, a AAA game could be costing 1.5 million a month according to google, imagine the figures for a game that basically gives no revenue.



So there are two options to consider here:

1)This is just some sort of PR to try to get rid of the refund policy and start offering the game on deals/close the whole issue before MS takes over. This means that not much more months of development are left and probably the assigned amount per month might be like what, considering it could be outsourced... 100k? 200k tops? I doubt much more than that (we'll have to see after 1.34 or whatever other patch they plan to release that's not just bug fixes since this one was mostly things that were already done before or kinda done)


2)Microsoft already has communication with them internally and one of the things they decided was to dedicate resources into it, in which case they are into this for the long term, and also in which case... it's in our best interest to keep them on our good side.



Even if the first case is true, at some point Microsoft might want to revisit Warcraft 3, regardless if they redo the game from the ground up like the definitive edition games (although they would break custom map support, but I would be fine if the current client would still be playable for older maps (like how aoe 2 hd is still playable) and we had a new one with modern features as the definitive edition or whatever they decided to call it. (I believe many of the issues the game has in development come from the fact that it's legacy code so redoing it might save them long term headaches, including being able to redo an UI that looks like the classic one but with a modern framework, add new features such as multithreading, multi key hotkeys and so many other things).



In this secondary option, if we act maturely right now, whenever that happens regardless if it's continuously or if there is a break and then resumes under Microsoft, they will communicate (or not) with the community if we don't act like lunatics, we already waited 2 years for reforged, we don't lose anything waiting a year or two more till things settle down there.


Right now the updates we are getting I am assuming they are just a plus and in between, that way I temper down my expectations.
 
we are expecting them to do as many changes as before if not more
I am not expecting that. Who said we are expecting that? I am expecting the game will get worse and degrade. Why wouldn't it get worse and degrade?

any form of an update that does not end with things getting worse is a blessing for me at this point
Have you tested Patch 1.33 PTR? In my experience, this is the kind of patch where I can say to my friend on discord, "Hey, if I played that custom map we played live yesterday, but now I play it on PTR, how many minutes do you think it'll be before the game crashes?" and I make that kind of sick joke, then when I actually played the map the game actually did crash on the 1.33 PTR about 20 minutes in. And I have no idea why. When this goes live, we're all going to miss 1.32.
 
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I am not expecting that. Who said we are expecting that? I am expecting the game will get worse and degrade. Why wouldn't it get worse and degrade?


Have you tested Patch 1.33 PTR? In my experience, this is the kind of patch where I can say to my friend on discord, "Hey, if I played that custom map we played live yesterday, but now I play it on PTR, how many minutes do you think it'll be before the game crashes?" and I make that kind of sick joke, then when I actually played the map the game actually did crash on the 1.33 PTR about 20 minutes in. And I have no idea why. When this goes live, we're all going to miss 1.32.

I said it as figure of speech, not literally, I meant that if before with 60 people they barely got anything done in months, it'd be illogical to assume that any meaningful changes would happen with any team significantly smaller, and I doubt Blizzard is ignorant on that... hence why the rest of the comment.


And yes, at this point I do think that 1.33 will release more broken than 1.32 was during its last 2-3 patches, I assume now that they have a PTR up there's a deadline to push that to live, we shall see during the wc3 anniversary what pops up.
 
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from sources we know they had like 60 people or something before on the classic team, that's A LOT of money but it's alright for the development of the game (yet they were really slow to do things)...
the core team actually working on Reforged was pretty small. not the whole classic team worked on it.

IIRC (judging by the credits) there were about 7-10 devs actually working on the code side of things, split between backend, UI, engine, editor, etc.; models were outsourced, doesn't count. as far as software development teams go, this is average. Blizzard could easily afford to keep a team of that size (or at least half) working for years without so much as a dent in their financial situation.

a low estimate would be 100k a month, a AAA game could be costing 1.5 million
you're waaaaaay lowballing this here
a single software developer costs at least $60k/mo in the US. an actually decent one is upwards of $100k./mo
and they're not known for outsourcing their development so i wouldnt count on finding any savings there.


scratch all that, I had a massive brain fart mixing up yearly salaries with monthly salaries. assuming an $100k/y salary, that'd work to about $8.5k/mo, so yeah, $100k/mo for the whole project seems reasonable

also, development speed rarely correlates linearly (or at all) with team size unless there's a lot of opportunities to multitask or parallelize. so don't expect that throwing more dev = less time to dev
 
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It seems like a hint of something, but since it's Blizzard you never know. It will be a matter of waiting because now they suddenly seem to care about warcraft 3 Reforged after more than two years. This is like the 10.0 release date, waiting and seeing if they do something worth the effort or just go back to business as usual.
 
I am not expecting that. Who said we are expecting that? I am expecting the game will get worse and degrade. Why wouldn't it get worse and degrade?


Have you tested Patch 1.33 PTR? In my experience, this is the kind of patch where I can say to my friend on discord, "Hey, if I played that custom map we played live yesterday, but now I play it on PTR, how many minutes do you think it'll be before the game crashes?" and I make that kind of sick joke, then when I actually played the map the game actually did crash on the 1.33 PTR about 20 minutes in. And I have no idea why. When this goes live, we're all going to miss 1.32.
I have yet to test the PTR and given PTR's buggy nature, anything is to be expected IMO (even though crashes are game-breaking). The whole point is that I don't want to be hyper-negative since it's just like suddenly starting again.
 
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I have yet to test the PTR and given PTR's buggy nature, anything is to be expected IMO (even though crashes are game-breaking). The whole point is that I don't want to be hyper-negative since it's just like suddenly starting again.
past blizzard behaviour has given us all the reasons to be hyper-negative IMO. its their job to earn goodwill, not ours to give it away. anyone working as a team lead for the wc3 team should recognize the fact that the whole project was a dumpster fire and adjust accordingly. and if they don't acknowledge that, i'd say that's an immediate red flags suggesting that nothing has changed for the better and no lessons have been learned

i really cant blame anyone for being snarky, pessimistic, negative or even aggressive

the last thing anyone who still plays reforged wants is to have it be broken yet again
 
blizzard behaviour has given us all the reasons to be hyper-negative IMO
But what is 'negative' ? I was saying things will get worse, and instead of angry we should all try to "plug holes in the ship... before it sinks."

I don't really see that as being negative at all. I almost see it as positive, in my own way. I'm not really sure how to see it any other way, anymore.

Having tried to rewrite a hobby project replica of War3 on the weekends, the problem is made all the more clear. This is an eccentric piece of technology with an extraordinary number of undocumented edge cases. To say that anyone new will simply "fix it" is an absurdist/reductionist philosophy.
 
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if we act maturely right now, whenever that happens regardless if it's continuously or if there is a break and then resumes under Microsoft, they will communicate (or not) with the community if we don't act like lunatics, we already waited 2 years for reforged, we don't lose anything waiting a year or two more till things settle down there.

Act maturely? As in keeping our mouths shut, and moving our heads pretending to be happy and hopeful, sure not problem. shrugs

But seriously, unless there was some memory holed event on Hive or Blizz forums, like some code monkey get sacrificed on fire, or people sending messages to private/personnel social media accounts as not Blizzard sponsored ones, people didn't acted like lunatics during these days, the ones who payed $30 were in their rights to vent, and the others who got the game as kids, still got the right to being pissed by getting 30GB of models, and some Chrome menu that lagged when opened.

If something demonizing complaining is why we're here, not only with respect on Blizz but other companies, that bubble of alternate reality of "everything is positive and everyone else a hater" they want to sell needs to be broken when they don't follow their end of the bargain. In an ideal world people would be able to control their Pre-Orderklepsy, and having a strong economical punch, by not buying something that isn't on specs, but isn't an ideal world, so the only tool is bitching harder online and sending scores to the 0,6 floor.

Getting that negative score in metacritic, sure made more waves in the offices than any respectful letter with the list of changes, bugs and improvements that Hive suggested.
 
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past blizzard behaviour has given us all the reasons to be hyper-negative IMO. its their job to earn goodwill, not ours to give it away. anyone working as a team lead for the wc3 team should recognize the fact that the whole project was a dumpster fire and adjust accordingly. and if they don't acknowledge that, i'd say that's an immediate red flags suggesting that nothing has changed for the better and no lessons have been learned

i really cant blame anyone for being snarky, pessimistic, negative or even aggressive

the last thing anyone who still plays reforged wants is to have it be broken yet again
The thing is sometimes the hyper-negativity is aimed at wrong directions and end up doing more damage than actually encourage fixing.

As always, to each their own. I am providing my personal stance on the case.

For some reason, this feels like deja vu.
 
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The thing is sometimes the hyper-negativity is aimed at wrong directions and end up doing more damage than actually encourage fixing.

As always, to each their own. I am providing my personal stance on the case.

For some reason, this feels like deja vu.
idk i dont buy the whole "let's be reasonable and patient" thing with blizzard anymore

for sure, let's not go on twitter or blizzard forums or wherever and just ragespam them with slurs, that's just being a shitty person. but other than that i think the general snark, sarcasm and pessimism are well-deserved. and pretty fun too

either way i dont think that deliberating about what is and isnt acceptable 'displeasure' will dissuade anyone from actually going out and doing those things anyway. at least as far as i know the devs dont hang out on hive, lemme keep my safe vent space

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oh and personally, every reforged patch so far made it progressively harder for me to play the game on my end
it used to be that wc3 worked perfectly on linux, then the whole webui thing happened it became barely playable, and now on the ptr it just doesn't load anymore at all

this is in the age of steam deck too, where you can run nearly any windows game on linux with few or no tweaks at all. i've played a crapton of (windows) games on my system including a bunch of triple-a titles perfectly fine, but the one to give me trouble has to be reforged. i find that pretty ironic in the big picture
 
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Getting that negative score in metacritic, sure made more waves in the offices than any respectful letter
I'm curious: what leads you to believe this made any waves in the office? What is the source of your data?


Could she be the one to return balance to the force?
I don't think so. Not unless she can rank higher than me on the new melee leaderboard. Because that's totally what matters.


For some reason, this feels like deja vu.
Of course it is. We didn't get any better; we still have the same problems. We are still gathered together on a modding website for a game that does not generate any corporate revenue directly as a result of players modding, owned by a company that now wants to primarily make mobile games. Nothing that we will do will make the money to fix the problem, so whatever your problems are... they probably won't get fixed. And all our negativity can be easily mislead by even a few bad actors into making us focus on stuff that isn't even real nor a part of anything that would ever even possibly get "fixed."


perfectly on linux
was it ever really perfect? If you want to see a game that runs perfectly on linux, try playing Warsmash. The game itself is not perfect, but the windows/linux crossplay via Java and LibGDX is pretty much 1:1

(It even runs on my android phone if I compile it to an APK app. It turns out, LibGDX was a library for making mobile games all along. So I guess I beat Blizzard to the punch with Warcraft mobile, I just didnt tell anyone.)
 
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was it ever really perfect?
yes, pretty much every version up to 1.31. back when i was into modding wc3 i worked exclusively on linux, and arguably linux made it even easier to work with because of all the extra tooling. only the world editor sucked but only because of the weird ancient ui they have on there

it used to be worse before dxvk appeared (think 10 years ago) and it had to run under the OpenGL renderer, but even then it was playable. and after dxvk came into the scene, it became indistinguishable from native. even the weird shit like the preload exploit worked no problemo

i still have the older versions installed to play with a friend and they work like a charm
If you want to see a game that runs perfectly on linux, try playing Warsmash. The game itself is not perfect, but the windows/linux crossplay via Java and LibGDX is pretty much 1:1
nice plug, too bad java is a pain in the ass to get working on linux sometimes, especially when you have to juggle a bunch of different versions of it installed at the same time.
java is only cross-platform on paper, in practice a lot of desktop java apps are written windows-first and just flat out dont work on linux because they use some weird windows-specific api, are buggy as hell, or look like ass if they have a UI. not saying this is the case for Warsmash, but attributing crossplatform support to Java is a bit shaky

not to mention that today its much easier to get a cross-platform game working without ever having to rely on any sort of VM like java or clr or mono or whatever

Didn't say all of them. Darklycan51 suggested the older ones and I laughed at it. Or do you have something else in mind?
my comment was a snarky reference to the "not all men" excuse often thrown around in attempt to counter feminist talking points

in my experience the wc3 community is pretty much all weirdos and not the good kind
 
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low metacritic score
I'm curious: what leads you to believe this made any waves in the office? What is the source of your data?
Even Lemon Sky Studios noticed although they must've been ready with art rework months if not a year ready in advance.
Also Warcraft used to work well on Linux: "wine war3.exe"
 
I believe this woman knows how to deal in buisness, knows how to accomplish her goals, she gave me a feeling she knows how to take care about her job place.
I think she knows how to handle upper managment and i beleive that she is rdy to pass or listen community feedback

Somehow,i believe she is enough experienced and competent for this lead role.
She looks to me serious and dedicated.

That is my general feelings - and i got fate this time somehow.

I just hope they dont fix the game and vanishe forever...

(Praying they announce a purifying huge patch for all those reinventions where they deleted original designs AKA Buzzcut Paladin model and hundreds of others including buildings,doodads,rocks etc, code those stuff and move it to campaign, or free skins. Next year some art changes announcement hopefully...)

I will quote an owner of Purist Reforged Crusaders discord

I will purifie this purged game and purge it with purity !
 
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Praying they announce a purifying huge patch for all those reinventions where they deleted original designs AKA Buzzcut Paladin model and hundreds of others including buildings,doodads,rocks etc, code those stuff and move it to campaign, or free skins. Next year some art changes announcement hopefully...
 
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While i hate blizzard and a few other developers of the 90s and early 00s now for one reason or another.

Pissing and moaning does nothing. Post detailed ptr bug info. Screenshots if available and anything else relevant and push it through channels that CAN have the ear of the classic team.

I pushed dozens of broke ass campaign fixes through @Kam before the game got swept under the rug and im trying to fix what relevant shit i can to ensure Hard mode isnt severaly broken , overtuned, or bugged.

thats all I can do you all with more technical knowhow on how to game and its code works under the hood need to push stuff through channels that can and most importantly WILL relay the message.

We dont know if 1.33 is the end of the road and if it is im going to try to leave the game in the best possible shape. Because the only other alternative is 1.31.1 or earlier and 1.31.1 was pretty fuck up.
 
thats all I can do you all with more technical knowhow on how to game and its code works under the hood need to push stuff through channels that can and most importantly WILL relay the message.
isn't Kam the only channel though? why not just tell Kam to fix everything? Even the leader of Blizzard Qwik says on twitter that the best way to deal with these things is to submit them through the official channel -- which isn't Kam.

The official channel is, in my experience, something that would probably rarely work. That's probably why a good leader would want you to use it -- it makes you go away.

Talking to Kam is what works. Kam is basically our savior. I reported crash cases in this game engine to the general discussion forums in 2016 that still aren't fixed. But, things that I reported to Kam in 2019 are fixed.

Although, to Blizzard's credit, they did delete the old general discussion forum from prior to Reforged in 2018-2019 or so, so it's not as if I could easily link you a post about the bug I have in mind. I'd guess we could probably find it on the Wayback Machine if we tried really hard, though.

thats all I can do you all with more technical knowhow on how to game and its code works under the hood need to push stuff through channels that can and most importantly WILL relay the message.
You make this sound so easy... So far the only bug that got an official reply on the PTR discussion forums that I've seen was the one I posted about the issue that breaks all the fancy HD custom mods:

And to be honest, like, this is probably not the bug that Blizzard should focus on the most because it's one of the least likely that they would be able to fix. Even though I think some of the most prominent Reforged mods (ReReforged, Chronicles of the Second War, etc) may be hit hard by this bug and have wealthy leadership behind them who knows how to raise a stink about it. But, despite that, the underlying licensed software "PopcornFX" that Blizzard bought to build Reforged is something Blizzard does not even control. That library is apparently written in such a way that it is not backwards compatible to old version(s), unlike Warcraft III that tries to be backwards compatible with old maps and old assets when new patches come out. These are ideologies that are just fundamentally clashing with each other. It's not really a matter of having technical knowledge; there are a lot of people with the knowledge, but they are not allowed to fix it.

The biggest problem with Warcraft 3 is the society governance issue that the only people allowed to update it are the ones chosen by a financially motivated corporation. It doesn't matter how much you care and it doesn't matter how much technical knowledge you have -- there are things you are not allowed to do, and therefore not allowed to fix.
 
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Well you already hit nail on head anyway most of 1.33 is stuff done well over a year ago so fixing stuff from people that no longet work there is beyond the scope and investment that will be allowed into this product.

We are in dire straights.

If we dont at a Minimume see custom campaign launching support redadded that will sum up blizzard I think to everyone. Then again my opinion and distaste for Blizzard is unlikely to change even if by some miracle 1.33 doesnt launch as currently is.
 
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isn't Kam the only channel though? why not just tell Kam to fix everything? Even the leader of Blizzard Qwik says on twitter that the best way to deal with these things is to submit them through the official channel -- which isn't Kam.

The official channel is, in my experience, something that would probably rarely work. That's probably why a good leader would want you to use it -- it makes you go away.

Talking to Kam is what works. Kam is basically our savior. I reported crash cases in this game engine to the general discussion forums in 2016 that still aren't fixed. But, things that I reported to Kam in 2019 are fixed.

Although, to Blizzard's credit, they did delete the old general discussion forum from prior to Reforged in 2018-2019 or so, so it's not as if I could easily link you a post about the bug I have in mind. I'd guess we could probably find it on the Wayback Machine if we tried really hard, though.


You make this sound so easy... So far the only bug that got an official reply on the PTR discussion forums that I've seen was the one I posted about the issue that breaks all the fancy HD custom mods:

And to be honest, like, this is probably not the bug that Blizzard should focus on the most because it's one of the least likely that they would be able to fix. Even though I think some of the most prominent Reforged mods (ReReforged, Chronicles of the Second War, etc) may be hit hard by this bug and have wealthy leadership behind them who knows how to raise a stink about it. But, despite that, the underlying licensed software "PopcornFX" that Blizzard bought to build Reforged is something Blizzard does not even control. That library is apparently written in such a way that it is not backwards compatible to old version(s), unlike Warcraft III that tries to be backwards compatible with old maps and old assets when new patches come out. These are ideologies that are just fundamentally clashing with each other. It's not really a matter of having technical knowledge; there are a lot of people with the knowledge, but they are not allowed to fix it.

The biggest problem with Warcraft 3 is the society governance issue that the only people allowed to update it are the ones chosen by a financially motivated corporation. It doesn't matter how much you care and it doesn't matter how much technical knowledge you have -- there are things you are not allowed to do, and therefore not allowed to fix.
Agree, reporting to community manager is what brings alot more chances bug can be fixed.

But this game has not just bugs only, its broken on many levels.

I beleive there should be 3 community managers, 1 specialzed for editor only bugs and changes, 1 to report game bugs to be fixed , and 1 for visual lets say

And ppl would do it on voluntary level + staying passioned about it.
But the morale question would be risen by others and not by volunteers: Why multibilionaire company would hire ppl for free, and why they cant just make game work right.

1 man cant do it alone, this game has heavy amount of content and heavy amount of things to be fixed.

Why every single game is getting support as it should be and look modern and only wc3 is bad?

Why old designs are being deleted and they give us new designs that has nothing to do with old game. Can we just get reforged being faitfull like mortar team unit model or buildings like human altar model? The true high poly HD faitfull representation of original?

What about game still using mosaic system typical for 2d games, transitioned to work on 3d game 2003?

What about cutting the tile image to 32 pieces and destroying art structure....

2022 year...Shame

You destroyed my wc3 life
 
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Agree, reporting to community manager is what brings alot more chances bug can be fixed.

But this game has not just bugs only, its broken on many levels.

I beleive there should be 3 community managers, 1 specialzed for editor only bugs and changes, 1 to report game bugs to be fixed , and 1 for visual lets say

And ppl would do it on voluntary level + staying passioned about it.
But the morale question would be risen by others and not by volunteers: Why multibilionaire company would hire ppl for free, and why they cant just make game work right.

1 man cant do it alone, this game has heavy amount of content and heavy amount of things to be fixed.

Why every single game is getting support as it should be and look modern and only wc3 is bad?

Why old designs are being deleted and they give us new designs that has nothing to do with old game. Can we just get reforged being faitfull like mortar team unit model or buildings like human altar model? The true high poly HD faitfull representation of original?

What about game still using mosaic system typical for 2d games, transitioned to work on 3d game 2003?

What about cutting the tile image to 32 pieces and destroying art structure....

2022 year...Shame

You destroyed my wc3 life
Kant we are past the point of model asthetics. At this point we are just trying to get a working feature complete product.

Throw the wishlist out window and pray for the above.

We can do as we have always done but only with a functional base game.
 
Kant we are past the point of model asthetics. At this point we are just trying to get a working feature complete product.

Throw the wishlist out window and pray for the above.

We can do as we have always done but only with a functional base game.
You are correct. Ok i will not ask purist art giga huge patch.

Still using 2 dimensional mosaic tile system in 2022 3d game...

Sorry. I got a realistic request : Bring back old features to new-classic and Reforged where there used to be Tileset Info under map - this is all inside map creation lobby whater its offline,online,lan,campaign,custom campaign,ladder games.

It was a global function for all maps....
 
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