New skill system is boring at low-mid levels. Solution - flat milestone bonuses!

[ALEXz407]

Release of a new version of the map was the real New Year's gift from Zwiebelchen.
Many players with high leveled chars immediately began testing new skill combinations and write feedbacks. However...

The Problem

Players compare high level changes. Many of them already have top items. In this way difference between for example "Might 20 lvl" and "Might 25 lvl" is very noticeable. But what about low-mid levels where player have low stats? Let's look at a graph:

You can see that the player with 15 base damage (roughly d1 items) will receive +1 damage from Might only with 7 points invested in this skill, or talking about levels - with 13 level character minimum. I want to ask - is it fun?
Spirit also gives almost nothing on low levels. There are only a few enemies, requiring resistances. And you get an extra stat point only with d2 level items and at least 10 points in this skill, because numbers rounded down.
If you want be a good tank or improve your survivabilty as a caster you can choose Constitution as a first skill. Well, get 1 HP as a squire, or 0 HP as Magician (because mages must suffer! . Also it grants 1% evasion every 2 skill levels - nice addition, but it is almost nothing with low HP pool.
Perception gives linear increase in crit chance and crit damage. Equally useful at 1 level and 50. Also it boosts both damage/healing output. Skill for stacking number one.
Reflexes is the most profitable skill for stacking. It grants linear stat growth and at high values effectiveness will grow exponentially. Skill for stacking number two.
As we can see the new skill system repeats mistakes of the old skill system: it is best to stack 2 skills. In addition really useful at low-mid levels only two of the five skills. The situation changes at high level with green-blue items, but still build 25/25 is best.

Summarizing all written: This map lacks now: 1. fun from skill selection at low-mid levels. 2. reasons for combination more than 2 skills.
1. This is bad, because this kind of fun guaranteed (1 skill point every level), achievable (you can see experience bar) and customizable (you can select 1 skill from 4-5 available for better fitting your role). I can say this part of game is important, because it demonstates your progress. Other features are too randomized (loot from mobs) / grindy (abilities/crafts for gold) / not soloable (bosses).
2. I don't want to say that 25/25/0/0/0 builds is bad, but it would be great to see other combinations like 25/11/8/6/0 or 8/8/8/8/18 which will be more versatile.

Solution

So we need to accelerate feel of the progress on low-mid levels, and increase the significance of all skills. But we also must keep in mind that at high character levels skills should be highly correlated with equipped items.

The solution lies on the surface - combine flat and percentage growth at skills. Flat growth must diminish with skill level, so percent growth will be more valuable at high levels.
For greater significance flat values are combined in milestones. Each milestone has same increase in stats, but you need to invest more into skill to reach next milestone. The idea is illustrated in the attachment:


As you can see milestones are placed at skill levels: 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, 21, 25.
In total there are 10 milestones for each skill: 6 available with base class and additional 4 can be obtained with advanced class.
Each milestone provides bonus which is noticeably boosts character role at low levels:

Might - +1 Attack Power and +1 Spell Power
Flat increment will give noticeable damage upgrade at low levels.

Reflexes - +1 Armor Point
Armor is always needed for tanks, also this bonus will help new damage dealers survive mobs attack when soloing in starting location.

Spirit - +10 Mana Points
MP are always needed for casters. This skill will compensate lack of mana if you use HP/Stats oriented items.

Constitution - +20 Health Points
Key feature for begginers tanks. Also this can help damage dealers with low HP items survive AoE/Aggro pulls.

Perceprion - -2% Aggro generation
Critical chance and damage are fairly universal stats, therefore another universal bonus connected to them. It also limits criticals for tanks, making place for more stable aggro generating skills.

You can compare damage increase from Might with milestones (total increase = orange + selected bars):

As you can see - even small amount of points into this skill will give you guaranteed damage boost. But better boost you will receive with damage oriented items and high skill values.

Also, if it's possible, small change in formulas from "Round Down" to "Round Up" will increase the attractivness of skills with percentage boosts (stats from Spirit, damage from Might, evasion from Constitution).

I hope that these changes will increase the diversity of builds and will make game process more rewarding at low-mid levels. Which will attract more new players.

Thank you for reading to the end .

 

[kevs926]

i dont care on #1

but i agree with #2

for #2, a non-linear skill bonus is one way to address it. I dont like 25/25/ to be optimal builds. Also the skills should have much more impact. Meaning, increase their values, but decrease values from other sources (aka items)

 

[Ihazdialup]

Well the the way this was already countered against for low levels is that now our characters build drastically faster on each level up than before, and that should havebeen extended to the base classes as well

 

[Xonok]

Okay, apparently there's one more person besides me that considers combining flat and scaling bonuses an option.

 

[Jumbo]

flat bonus is a good idea, and I also agree with it (unless Zweib has a better idea). However, adding armor points through a stat is very wrong and armor should be kept solely for items. Keep in mind that armor values equals real damage. Therefore a tank will be able to reach very high armor numbers from a combination of items and this stat.

 

[ALEXz407]

Also the skills should have much more impact. Meaning, increase their values, but decrease values from other sources (aka items)

If skills will have a big impact, we again have a situation where 25/25 builds are best. It also reduces the fun of getting new items.
So i tried to balance flat bonuses with this rules:
1. Noticeable dmg up at low levels (almost 1/1 with start weapons) and low dmg up at high (1/3 or 1/4 with top weapons).
2. Tanking accessory equal armor up (perhaps stronger at low levels).
3. Two items equal HP/MP pools bonus (now it looks like x2.5-x3 bonus at high level, but current items isn't top tier) with bigger impact on low levels.
4. Aggro reduction that overcompensates crit bonus damage at medium levels and equal to damage bonus at high levels.

Well the the way this was already countered against for low levels is that now our characters build drastically faster on each level up than before, and that should havebeen extended to the base classes as well

Yes, it raises base stats faster now. And it works well with linear increasing secondary stats like: AP, SP, ASPD and Armor Penetration.
However, such secondary stats like Crit chance, Crit multipliers, Spell haste and Evasion now depreciate faster, because their values have inverse relation with base stats.

I can not say whether it is good or bad. In any case, it does not provide such flexibility as flat bonuses from skills.

New base HP/MP stats looks really good. Not sure about damage increase, but it comes with lowering base ASPD so i think it's good too.

Okay, apparently there's one more person besides me that considers combining flat and scaling bonuses an option.

Let me insert a link on your vision of flat bonuses.
The first way with ratings + diminishing (didn't play in LoL, but I think it's like in World of Warcraft) sounds good, but it is more difficult to understand and require secondary stats rework.
The second way is what I suggest too. Milestones add sharpness to this system, because player often meets with the choice "add 1 point to this skill for big advantage in secondary stats now, or invest it into main skill with big advantage later."

flat bonus is a good idea, and I also agree with it (unless Zweib has a better idea). However, adding armor points through a stat is very wrong and armor should be kept solely for items. Keep in mind that armor values equals real damage. Therefore a tank will be able to reach very high armor numbers from a combination of items and this stat.

Well, Zwiebelchen wrote that he wanted to "make spirit also affect armor stats of items". So i don't see a problem with adding armor points with skills. I'm just afraid what bonus will be in percents, what greatly affect high level tanks and adds nothing to low levels.
Talking about numbers. Flat bonus "10 armor" at 25 skill level isn't too high. It's equal to armor of tanking accessory from foothills. My crusader has 79 armor points in foothills items. Additional 10 armor will help with spawns on Brood/Garg, but agains Gazrow hits for 250+ damage it doesn't help a lot. Do not forget that d4 will be much stronger area, so bonus will be even less noticeable.
At low levels it will greatly help with solo killing mobs at wilderness, but don't make tanks too sturdy for damage in d1 (+3/+4 armor doesn't help much vs boss with 30 dmg and trash with 20 dmg). Also do not forget about Armor Penetration at mobs that raises minimum damage to tank.

 

[Shamu]

Using bars in your graphs is a lot more confusing than lines would have been imo.

Crit% and Critdmg% are not the same for lvl 1 and lvl 50. The more crit you have, the stronger Critdmg% gets, and the more Critdmg you have, the stronger Crit% gets. this skill scales with items and talents.

As long as there are only stat gains on skills, there will always be an optimal build. If it isn't 25/25, then some other build will be optimal, and all others won't be.

If its not a universal 25/25 optimal build, then at least every class/role combination will have one, and they will probably overlap with one another. I don't see why 25/25 should be bad, and another fixed optimal build that is spread across more skills would be better. They both allow for the same amount of versatility.

A way to change this would be to introduce hardcaps on stats and being able to reach these. If one class can reach 100% crit somewhere during d4 progress, then the perception skill would lose part of its value. As long as this is not possible for all classes, but only one or two, there would be classes that have to skill according to their itemization, rather than faceroll a haste/crit build. If this cap is reached relatively late, then the skill reset costs are a very effective goldsink for high end content.

While crit is the most obvious hardcap, others could still be introduced, like having critdmg cap at 200%, haste at whatever% and so on. As long as the hardcaps are communicated, and not just some obscure values that can't be found anywhere, skill distribution would depend heavily on itemization. And yes, I played a lot of world of warcraft. Try coming up with your very own BiS ICC gear (when there were a lot more different stats than now), and you'll see how important hardcaps and softcaps are in their stat system, and how they force you to think about what you're doing.

Having auras that grant stats would then also mean that you would need multiple item sets to handle stat buffs effectively.

I would like to mention that the crit cap was a stupid example, and that crit isn't necessarily a stat that should be capped, unless you are at the highest tier that will ever be made. Hastecap and Critdmgcap seem like a better idea.

This doesn't make the low and mid levels any more interesting though, so it only solves half of the problem. then again, when I play a character that isn't at the levelcap, I don't expect him to be 100% balanced and I don't expect gear and skills to be mindblowing. Levelling up is always somewhat of a chore that has to be done before reaching the "real" content, since anything that you gain while levelling up will be heavily outclassed by maxlvl gear.


tl;dr: Hardcaps and Softcaps are great, mkay? And endgame content > leveling content

 

[ALEXz407]

Using bars in your graphs is a lot more confusing than lines would have been imo.

I used bars to show difference between damage increase at each skill level. The trend line is noticeable still.

Crit% and Critdmg% are not the same for lvl 1 and lvl 50. The more crit you have, the stronger Critdmg% gets, and the more Critdmg you have, the stronger Crit% gets. this skill scales with items and talents.

You are right. But I wanted to say that 1 point in Perception will grant you flat 1% crit chance and 2% crit damage both at level 1 and level 50. For comparison, Might will not grant you anything at low damage/skill level so it's useless on low levels.

As long as there are only stat gains on skills, there will always be an optimal build. If it isn't 25/25, then some other build will be optimal, and all others won't be.

If its not a universal 25/25 optimal build, then at least every class/role combination will have one, and they will probably overlap with one another. I don't see why 25/25 should be bad, and another fixed optimal build that is spread across more skills would be better. They both allow for the same amount of versatility.

I agree.

A way to change this would be to introduce hardcaps on stats and being able to reach these. If one class can reach 100% crit somewhere during d4 progress, then the perception skill would lose part of its value. As long as this is not possible for all classes, but only one or two, there would be classes that have to skill according to their itemization, rather than faceroll a haste/crit build. If this cap is reached relatively late, then the skill reset costs are a very effective goldsink for high end content.

While crit is the most obvious hardcap, others could still be introduced, like having critdmg cap at 200%, haste at whatever% and so on. As long as the hardcaps are communicated, and not just some obscure values that can't be found anywhere, skill distribution would depend heavily on itemization. And yes, I played a lot of world of warcraft. Try coming up with your very own BiS ICC gear (when there were a lot more different stats than now), and you'll see how important hardcaps and softcaps are in their stat system, and how they force you to think about what you're doing.

Having auras that grant stats would then also mean that you would need multiple item sets to handle stat buffs effectively.

I would like to mention that the crit cap was a stupid example, and that crit isn't necessarily a stat that should be capped, unless you are at the highest tier that will ever be made. Hastecap and Critdmgcap seem like a better idea.

Great idea. I spent some time to figure out what stats can be capped, here is a list:
Flat values, doesn't capping: Hitpoints, HP regen, Manapoints, MP regen, Armor, Armor penetration, Attackpower, Spellpower, STR, AGI, INT, Run speed.
Percent values, linear increase, can be capped at any value: Crit melee/ranged damage, Crit spell damage.
Percent values, linear increase, useless over 100%: Crit chance.
Percent values, linear increase, eliminates game mechanic at 100%: Evasion, Resistances.
Percent values, exponential increase, infinite power at 100%: Attack speed, Spell haste. The chart below illustrates what it means.


Warning about reaching stat cap can be placed at stats window. Something like that:
Normal: Critical Strike 35%
Capped: Critical Strike 70%+15%
And warning at the top of window right above Spellpower (if there is at least one capped stat): Red stats are overcapped and grants you nothing!

Also, they can be grouped:
>>> Cap warning will appear here <<<
Damage
- Critical Chance xx%+xx%
Melee & Ranged
- Armor Penetration xxx
- Attack Haste xx%+xx%
- Critical Damage xxx%+xx%
Magic
- Spellpower xxx
- Spell Haste xx%+xx%
- Critical Damage xxx%+xx%

Defense
- Evasion xx%+xx%
Resistances
- Fire xx%+xx%
- Water xx%+xx%
- Lightning xx%+xx%
- Magic xx%+xx%
- Shadow xx%+xx%
- Poison xx%+xx%
This will make stats window more systematic, but will increase its width and height.

Now about cap values.

Crit chance cap: 70%
70% crit chance makes crit cap achievable. Also high crit gain will benefit STR&INT characters more for AGI collection.
Formula: 5% + (AGI / [Base AGI] - 1) x 25%
Skill: Perception (+1%)
Talents: 5% - Druid | 10% - Bishop, Sorcerer, Assassin, Berserker | 15% - Monk, Sorcerer, Necromancer, Hunter, Crusader
Selfbuffs: -
Buffs: -
Auras: 3% (maybe increase to 5%?) - Pack Leader (Hunter)

Crit melee/ranged damage cap: 225% (75%)
Crit damage is highly scaled with STR. This is done to make AGI characters attack faster&weaker, when STR chars can crush enemies with devastating crits. It also makes rangers not so overpowered.
Formula: 150% + (STR / [Base STR] - 1) x 40%
Skill: Perception (+1%)
Talents: +50% (maybe nerf to 30%?) - Assassin | +30% (maybe nerf to 20%?) - Bard
Selfbuffs: -
Buffs: -
Auras: -

Crit spell damage cap: 225% (75%)
Magic crit damage scales similar to melee/ranged.
Formula: 150% + (INT / [Base INT] - 1) x 40%
Skill: Perception (+1%)
Talents: -
Selfbuffs: -
Buffs: -
Auras: -

Attack haste cap: 70%
70% attack haste means 333% increase in white melee/ranged damage. However, this cap easily reachable only for thieves. Other characters will stay near to 25%-50% where attack speed gives 135%-200% boost (that can be easily upgraded to 200%-333% boost with Bishop's buff).
Formula: (AGI / [Base AGI] - 1) x 25%
Skill: Reflexes (+1%)
Talents: +5% - Monk, Hunter, Assassin, Bard
Selfbuffs: +10% - Berserker | +150%?? - Ranger
Buffs: +15% Symbol of Fury (Cleric) | +25% - Symbol of Fury (Bishop)
Auras: -

Spell haste cap: 70%
Similar to attack haste 70% of spell haste give you 333% increase in damage and mana consumption if you can use skills without delays.
Formula: (AGI / [Base AGI] - 1) x 25%
Skill: Reflexes (+1%)
Talents: +10% - Bishop, Sorcerer, Necromancer, Druid
Selfbuffs: +50%?? - Ranger
Buffs: +5% - Song of Peace (Bard)
Auras: -

Evasion cap: 75%
Difficult achievable and very usefull stat. That is Why it grow mainly with items. At cap only 25% melee/ranged attacks will hit tank.
Formula: 5 + (AGI / [Base AGI] - 1) x 5%
Skill: Constitution (+0.5%)
Talents: +10% - Berserker
Selfbuffs: +up to 20% - Monk
Buffs: -
Auras: +3% - Confidence (Cleric) | 7% - Pack Leader (Hunter)

Resistances cap: 75%
Spell resistance is situational defense stat. That is Why it can easily be stacked to max 75% with items/buffs/skills even without main stat formula. Capped at 75% so magic attacks will do 25% damage to characters.
Formula: -
Skill: Spirit (+1%)
Talents: +5% - Hunter
Selfbuffs: -
Buffs: +10% All - Fire Shield (Necromancer) | +10% FWL - Song of Elemenets (Bard)
Auras: 15% All - Confidence (Cleric) | 25% All - Confidence (Bishop)

I used the following priorities when writing formulas and skill bonuses (talents/buffs/auras are without modifications):
For damage dealers and healers: STR/AGI/INT on item > Secondary stat on item = Skill > Talent = Buff/Aura
For tanks: Secondary stat on item > Skill > STR/AGI/INT on item = Talent = Buff/Aura

And you can see that now there are softcaps. For example:
- Attack haste softcap for Monk 55% (+15% from Divine Fury)
- Evasion softcap 65% (+3% from Confidence and +7% from Pack Leader)
- All Resistances softcap 40% (+10% from Fire Shield and +25% from Confidence)
- Attack haste softcap for Berserker with Bishop 35% (+10% from Berserker's Rage and +25% from Divine Fury)
- e.t.c.

This doesn't make the low and mid levels any more interesting though, so it only solves half of the problem. then again, when I play a character that isn't at the levelcap, I don't expect him to be 100% balanced and I don't expect gear and skills to be mindblowing. Levelling up is always somewhat of a chore that has to be done before reaching the "real" content, since anything that you gain while levelling up will be heavily outclassed by maxlvl gear.

Creating an ideal build is really endgame fun. During leveling most fun (imo) are: choosing skills and feeling how you character become stronger with your choice, real increasing in stats with new gear, interesting quests and boss battles.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I'm currently thinking about removing the skill system completely and instead move the talent tree from the bag to the main hero instead.

I feel like the skill system is just an unneccesary element that more or less always leads into mono-statting, no matter how you change it.
There's no real decisionmaking involved, except for which stats you up. Everyone will more or less always end up with 25/25/0/0/0 ... so I could also just make it 1/1/0/0/0 in the first place.

That's why World of Warcraft changed talent trees completely to work more like one-shot decisions that affect your skills, always presenting you with choices of three of which you can always select only one.

I'm currently thinking about possible new ways to make the base classes more interesting on level up aside from skills. Maybe kind of a copy of the talent system, just for base classes with 3 general trees?


Afaik, WC3 allows for 6 skills in the levelable skill menu. This means I could easily have the 3 talent lines for advanced classes AND 3 talent lines for the base classes in one menu. The advanced lines get "unlocked" once you reach level 30 in the same way as they get unlocked now. The three base lines are always there and you get one point every 4 levels. The advanced lines have the requirement of all "base points" spent in order to be selectable.

 

[Ihazdialup]

If done right I would be good, though I think my own idea would be you have the advanced trees in the backpack still and are practically kept the same, but have the base talents on the character that you get every 2 levels or something and make the base trees bigger.

That my own personal thought, but that could end up being very OP...

 

[BoxOfFaith]

True diversity I don't think will ever exist within the game. Its unlikely that different people will end up loading assassins built in a different way. A meta build will always pop up, and it will always be widely used. I think worrying about these issues will just lead in a big circle of dissatisfaction.

I think the best target to aim for is ensuring that every class can fill a role relative to one another. Making sure all the DPS classes are relatively equal, or each have their own unique perks. So even if everyones Assassin is more or less the same, hopefully theres little incentive to take multiple assassins in a team, as if someone is already on one, hopefully a different class could fill a second DPS role in a better way. Much like a Hunter could be considered more valuable for the gargoyle fight due to its ability to range.

However customization through items could be a thing depending on the situation. If you have an undergeared tank, then more tanky gear on your Assassin could be more valuable than full on DPS gear for example.

On topic of this thread, I think its unnecessarily convoluted. I think you're aiming way too hard for perfection, something that games like WoW honestly stop caring about and they just ensure that nothing is broken, and continue to focus on pleasing their high level players. The low level gaias game isn't broken, its definitely still very playable. Could it be better? Probably, but as long as its playable and not broken, I don't have much issue with anything.

 

[kevs926]

i'm currently thinking about removing the skill system completely and instead move the talent tree from the bag to the main hero instead.

I feel like the skill system is just an unneccesary element that more or less always leads into mono-statting, no matter how you change it.
There's no real decisionmaking involved, except for which stats you up. Everyone will more or less always end up with 25/25/0/0/0 ... So i could also just make it 1/1/0/0/0 in the first place.

That's why world of warcraft changed talent trees completely to work more like one-shot decisions that affect your skills, always presenting you with choices of three of which you can always select only one.

I'm currently thinking about possible new ways to make the base classes more interesting on level up aside from skills. Maybe kind of a copy of the talent system, just for base classes with 3 general trees?


Afaik, wc3 allows for 6 skills in the levelable skill menu. This means i could easily have the 3 talent lines for advanced classes and 3 talent lines for the base classes in one menu. The advanced lines get "unlocked" once you reach level 30 in the same way as they get unlocked now. The three base lines are always there and you get one point every 4 levels. The advanced lines have the requirement of all "base points" spent in order to be selectable.

+1000

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The question for me is: would removing the skill system in general have a negative impact on the map, as in: would players actually care about the loss of "stuff to do when you level up"?

Obviously, if there never were a skill system in the first place, people wouldn't care, but now it would feel like I'm taking away the candy I just gave.


I think I'll experiment with some base talent lines on paper for now. Maybe, if I can come up with something interesting, I'll add that.

 

[ALEXz407]

The question for me is: would removing the skill system in general have a negative impact on the map, as in: would players actually care about the loss of "stuff to do when you level up"?

Obviously, if there never were a skill system in the first place, people wouldn't care, but now it would feel like I'm taking away the candy I just gave.


I think I'll experiment with some base talent lines on paper for now. Maybe, if I can come up with something interesting, I'll add that.

If new talents lines will be balanced as available now, nothing really will change, because biggest impact on character power obtained from last skills in talent line. So it will look like: choose 1 talent line from base class, choose 1 talent line from advanced class, spend remained points in stat increasing talents.

It would be epic If you can implement talents system like currently used in WoW. Each time you choose one from three talents that have approximately equal influence on character's power.

However, this is a whole bunch of work:
5*5*3 (75) talents for base classes.
6*5*3*2 (180) talents for advanced classes.
Even if we replace some talent lines with flat (base class) and percent (advanced class) stat gains, we still have at least 30 jass coded talents for base classes and 90/120 jass coded talents for advanced classes.
And who knows if it is possible to replace the standard abilities system.

What do you think?

P.S. Another possible combination of talents: 45 jass coded talents for base classes and 60 for advanced.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

@Alex: the "select one of three" instead of "up one by one" is actually possible through engineering upgrades. I used that method to apply the talents to the bag. And it's not like I'd need to recode all the talents, because they are already there. It just changes the way you acquire them (and adds some minor object data ... nothing huge).

In fact, it would make stuff easier, as then I can go with mutual exclusive talents, so I don't have to care about making said talents work in combination (like for example the "have 2 spirits" talents, which gave me a real headache to code).

I guess that's the next goal for me after removing the skill system in general. It would be easy to extend it to lower levels in the process aswell.

I think the "select 1 of 3 every 5 levels" would be the optimal thing (I'd exclude the first 10 levels to make it match the game's learning curve).

That means you get one of three talents at level:
10 (tier 1 base choice)
15 (tier 2 base choice)
20 (tier 3 base choice)
25 (tier 0 advanced choices)
30 (tier 1 advanced choices)*
35 (tier 2 advanced choices)*
40 (tier 3 advanced choices)*
45 (tier 4 advanced choices)*
50 (tier 5 advanced choices)*

*those already exist

This means I'd need to code 3*3*5+3*10=75 new talents. Sounds a lot, but isn't, if you consider that we already have 3*5*10=150 talents. And let's be honest: base class talents will probably be pretty simple adjustments of certain ability or stat values.


I like that. This is what is going to happen next.

The only problem would be the save/load compatibility. But yeah, I think I can handle that through -comp imports.

---------------------------

On top of that, I finally did the maths about a possible enchanting system ... and the results look good. In fact, an enchanting system that would allow upgrading each item would have a weaker impact on the save/load length than the current skill system (26^5 > 2^24*). The only problem would be the bloat in object data (two item objects instead of one) ... but I think the game can easily handle that.
There would not be choices here; the item would basicly only upgrade up from the initial state to the upgraded state.
Obviously, the material cost for such upgrades depend on the item level and quality grade.
I'd also add a new stackable material type to the game that is enchanting dust, which you can only get from disenchanting magic items.

*24 because there's a total of 24 equipment slots that can hold items

 

[kevs926]

I feel like the skill system is just an unneccesary element that more or less always leads into mono-statting, no matter how you change it.
There's no real decisionmaking involved, except for which stats you up. Everyone will more or less always end up with 25/25/0/0/0 ... so I could also just make it 1/1/0/0/0 in the first place.

That's why World of Warcraft changed talent trees completely to work more like one-shot decisions that affect your skills, always presenting you with choices of three of which you can always select only one.

I'm currently thinking about possible new ways to make the base classes more interesting on level up aside from skills. Maybe kind of a copy of the talent system, just for base classes with 3 general trees?

first of all, it won't always lead to mono-statting.

Decreasing bonuses and more levels per skill
Make it so the optimal build is the more spread out skills, rather than maxxing one stat only. They would only mono-stat if they really want a pure tank, pure dps, but will come with more sacrifices. The values per level is highest at level 1, and decreases for each level, making it lowest at level 51. 51 levels sounds ridiculous, but just incase someone wants glass cannons or super tanks they got it. Although the values at level 51 should be really small, for people to even think about building like this.

Different Values for each class
Due to the restriction you made that all heroes will have the same 5 skills (with same values per level also) to choose from, the values cant be increased/decreased to the extent that will make a certain character too imbalanced. You must adjust the value accordingly

Useful and Unique
This one is achieved by 1.2a(9) version somehow. You managed to make skills useful for any class and different from each other. Some values are just too weak. Although Luck, Speed, Power (correct my term usage, i forget them) all boost skill effectivity, it doesnt boost all skills, thats why they are on separate categories and we have to decide which one we go for. For example: Crits only affect dmg dealing skills (altho it affects heal now, but you really should revert it back). Haste doesnt affect instant cast skills like bladefury, crippling curse. Power affects all spells but isnt as effective as haste and crits.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

This is a quick sketch I made at work, about possible talents for base classes:

Squire:
10: HP +15% / Armor of equiped Shield +50% / Ev +3%
15: 15% more threat / phys abil damage +7% / -15% crit damage from enemies
20: Hateful stun +1 Sec / Movement speed +10% / Parry blocks 15% more damage

Cleric:
10: HP +15% / MP +15% / -15% threat
15: +10% damage of spells / All Resistances +10% / +15% healing received
20: Judgement -2 Mana cost / +5% crit / +10% healing done

Magician:
10: HP +15% / MP +15% / +20% spell crit damage
15: +10% Fire damage / +10% Water and lightning damage / +10% Magic and shadow damage
20: All Resistances +10% / Spell crits 25% less threat / Haste +5%

Ranger:
10: Attackpower and spellpower of weapon +30% / Pet stat score +20% / HP +15%
15: Aspd +10% / MP +15% / physical damage +7%
20: Aspd +10% / elemental damage +15% / Pet stat score +20%

Thief:
10: Aspd +10% / ability damage +15% / physical crit damage +25%
15: HP +15% / physical damage +7% / Attackpower of main weapon +30%
20: Embrittling acid duration +10 sec / Backstab stun duration +1 sec / Sleep duration +10 sec

Talents for advanced classes will have the same effect as they have now, but also get changed so that you have the "1 of 3" choice every 5 levels instead of "up the line" progression. Some values get adjusted to match the power of the talent choices of each tier.

 

[Shamu]

This is a quick sketch I made at work, about possible talents for base classes:



Talents for advanced classes will have the same effect as they have now, but also get changed so that you have the "1 of 3" choice every 5 levels instead of "up the line" progression. Some values get adjusted to match the power of the talent choices of each tier.

That looks pretty nice actually, but I do see a problem. As a crusader tank, you will want to be tanky and you will want to keep the aggro. Having 15% more threat and -15% crit dmg from enemies is something you will really have to think about, which is good. So if you have no problems with holding aggro, you'd want to take less damage, right? But what if the group setup changes? All it takes is one overgeared or overleveled dps to make you regret not taking the increased aggro. The current cost for resetting talents is too high to allow for a reasonable variation. Would the cost for resetting base class talents be seperate from the advanced classes? Or you could allow for much simpler resetting by removing costs and making it possible without an npc (for base classes only). This would also make it more forgiving and give reason to experiment for new players. I really feel like this should be something that you can change freely, since the aggro boni/mali seem very strong.

EDIT: and also, while I don't know what bosses will come with d4, the base talents look like the optimal choice will shift depending on the mechanics and nature of a given encounter. But I don't want to go on about free base respec forever.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

There will be no such thing as a seperate base talent and advanced talent reset if this change comes. They will both basicly be part of the same system.

Respeccing cost is not really a problem, since that can be changed easily. It won't be free, though, as I want people to think about their choices strategically. A certain minimum amount of penalty is neccesary to give the required impact.

 

[PachaXD]

changing to a talent trees system seems like the best option for me, it wont only increase the weight of the decisions we take while leveling, it will also make those decicions really affect the way our character works. If we talk about diversity of builds, that WONT happen, like never... always one build will be top one, will provide the best combination of bonuses for a purpose, the only real divversity of builds are simple choices like: i want to build my serk as a tank, or as a dps, my bish as a healer or a dps, my monk as dps or as a tank. In any game, even if we talk about wow, theres a conbinations of skills that will be optimal for a certain thing (mean it pve and pvp at WoW´s example mostly) we just cant avoid that from happening.

 

[ALEXz407]

@Zwiebelchen: This is great news!
I hope with WoW-like talents it will be possible to:
- Balance classes
- Make choices really interesting (if talent tree will be build properly)
- Give a guaranteed reward and as a result - desire to level up
- Effectively increase the number of skills with skill changing talents (i.e. single target taunt to small AoE taunt)

I think the "select 1 of 3 every 5 levels" would be the optimal thing (I'd exclude the first 10 levels to make it match the game's learning curve).

Around level 5 players start trying to kill bosses for quests (crab may already be killed). Talents at this level will be a great help for small parties.

Speaking about the proper construction of the skill tree.

As I see it

Each of the three talents must increase same aspect of gameplay. I can highlight the following aspects:
- Damage (skill damage up, cooldown reduction, skill combinations, AoE effects)
- Stats (flat/percentage increase in base stats: STR/AGI/INT, crit, spellpower, damage, haste)
- Control (stun/debuff duration, additional debuffs on skills)
- Versatility (MP pool, buffs/auras effectiveness, additional buff/aura effects on skills, heal power)
- Survivability (HP pool, evasion, armor, damage reduction, resistances, new/upgraded defensive effects on skills)
- Avoidance (run speed, death strikes protection, aggro reduction, receiving heal)
Control & versatility, survivability & avoidance, damage & stats can be combined. Thus we obtain a more balanced and at the same time unique builds.

Some thoughts about the talents for base classes, maybe you can find some of them useful?

Cleric
5 (Vers): +30 MP & +10% MP | Heal power up to SPx6 | Heal base cast time reduced to 2 sec & manacost to 8
10 (Surv/Avoid): +30 HP & +10% HP | evasion +7% | run speed +15%
15 (Stats): +2 SP & +7% SP | +5% spell haste | +5% crit chance & +15% spell crit damage
20 (Dmg): Souls Strike power up to SPx4 and manacost to 10 | Soul Strike on debuffed with Crippling Curse targets hit for SPx0.33 AoE in 150 radius | Each Crippling Curse tick adds 1 SP & 1% SP for 5 seconds, stacks up to 5 times

Magician
5 (Dmg): +15% Fire & +10% Shadow damage | +15% Magic & +10% Lightning damage | +1 SP & +5% SP & +10% Water damage
10 (Vers): +30 MP & +10% MP | Frost cage emits aura that reduce enemy run speed by 30% in 200 AoE around caged target | Dispel cost reduced to 0 but cast time increased to 1 sec
15 (Stats): +5% spell haste | +5% crit chance & +15% spell crit damage | +2 SP & +7% SP
20 (Vers/Cont): Frost cage duration x2 if target soaked | Meteor strike dazes enemies -75% run speed for 5 sec | Fire Shield can be applied to one target as bard's song (active while target in range)

Squire
5 (Surv): +40 HP & +15% HP | +2 Armor & +7% Armor | Evasion +5%
10 (Cont): Hateful Strike also stun 2 closest targets | Hateful Strike stun duration increased to 3 sec (2 sec on bosses) | Gaping Wounds reduce target spell haste by 10%
15 (Dmg): Taunt inflicts damage APx0.5 | Shield Slam damage now scaled with APx2 | Revenge cooldown reduced to 40 sec, but it cost 30 mana
20 (Vers): +40 MP & +15% MP | Each block or parry grants 300 AoE buff +10% attack speed & +5% spell haste for 5 sec (10 sec cd) | Heroic Presence doesn't increase aggro, but turns into aura +5% crit chance & +1 armor & +5% armor

Thief
5 (Stats/Dmg): +5% crit chance & +15% physical crit damage | +10% attack speed | abilities damage +15%
10 (Surv/Avoid): +30 HP & +10% HP | -20% Aggro | +15% Run speed
15 (Cont): 8 sec (4 sec on bosses) stun duration if Backstab used from Stealth | +10 sec Dazing Trap sleep duration | +10 sec Embrittling Acid duration
20 (Dmg): Backstab applies bleeding DoT APx0.5 damage per sec for 7 sec while Sweeping Blades active | Blurred Motions buffs +15% attack speed for 5 sec | Embrittling Acid ticks for APx0.1 poison damage every second

Ranger
5 (Stats/Dmg): +20% aggro & +20% armor to Servant of Nature | -20% aggro & +20% damage to Servant of Nature | +15% attack speed & 15% damage converted to HP to Servant of Nature
10 (Dmg): Flaming Arrow DoT damage doubled | Claw Strike does not create additional aggro but damage increased to PAPx3 | Ensnared targets ticks for SPx0.5 Lightning damage in 200 AoE every 2 seconds.
15 (Stats): +5% crit chance +15% physical crit damage | +10% attack speed | +20% Pet stat score
20 (Surv): +30 HP & +10% HP | +15% evasion | +20% all resistances

Also think about adding stat caps and increasing secondary stat formulas for STR/AGI/INT. This can really help with top content balancing and will up stat gain from low-mid level items (that was nerfed with last patch rebalance in base stat increasing per level).

On top of that, I finally did the maths about a possible enchanting system ...

Another great news!

What about make this feature endgame oriented? So I can take my Gaelas' Cap and upgrade it to Gaelas' Cap for 50 lvl? This allows you to use all the old stuff again.
Also, it will be easier to make the loot for the heroic versions of dungeons - just put upgraded versions into bosses and heroic loot into chests like at Ogres.

Enchanting price can scale with item level, so low tier item will require more enchant materials, so you can not just farm in low level instance what you need solo with 50 lvl and easily upgrade it to 50 lvl version.

And why add new material for enchanting? The game already has a mana crystals. Now they are needed for talent respec, some recipes and storage upgrade. With the elimination of skills, talent reset would be better make with gold price. So enchanting will be new MC sink thing. And MC drop rate can be changed to make them rare.
Perhaps enchanting introduction will require MC wipe to prevent players instantly upgrade all items to top.

 

[Shamu]

Also, it will be easier to make the loot for the heroic versions of dungeons - just put upgraded versions into bosses and heroic loot into chests like at Ogres.

If I understand you correctly, this would be really boring. Upgrading normal mode items only to have the upgraded items that you already have drop from heroic mode seems kind of lazy and pointless.

EDIT: also, I think Zwieb mentioned that upgrading would be endgame oriented (or implied it, at least). But giving every item in the game an upgraded version would give you way too many lvl 50 items. Having upgrading being exclusive to d4 items would be enough, or maybe exclusive to d4 and a few (few) other items, and the legendaries. This would also mean that items can't be upgraded instanly after the release, because you don't have them yet.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

@Alex: Thanks for the suggestions; I did take some notes on it and I like some of the ideas and will incorporate them into the new base class talents.
And there's always the option to just give a vendor a material that can be bought via MC that is required for enchanting. Disenchanting materials add a purpose to dropped gear other than vendoring - which is always a good thing.

@Shamu: I'm undecided yet. I like the idea of repurposing pre-level 50 gear for visual fluff... but then again I could also just add more items instead that use those skins. The idea about making every single item upgradable (with a noticable, but not overly huge increase in stats) has it's appeals, as it allows me to add a nice item and gold/MC sink to the crafting system.

 

[Shamu]

@Shamu: I'm undecided yet. I like the idea of repurposing pre-level 50 gear for visual fluff... but then again I could also just add more items instead that use those skins. The idea about making every single item upgradable (with a noticable, but not overly huge increase in stats) has it's appeals, as it allows me to add a nice item and gold/MC sink to the crafting system.

wouldn't this lead to many items that have the same stats, or almost the same stats, because they are all on the same tier, since they are all upgraded? That kind of sounds like a weird skin change rather than an item choice. But I don't really know every item in the game, so I might be wrong there. Or would there be several tiers of upgraded items?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Yeah that is right, I want to try to avoid having "too much of the same" ... hence why every item will be upgradable for a minor stat boost (on the same level).

So we are talking about being able to upgrade Gaelas Cap to Gaelas Cap +1 instead of making it a level 50 item.
A possible alternative would be to be able to upgrade the quality tier of the item by one.
So a level 10 Gaelas Cap would become a level 10 Gaelas Cap


I'm currently going over the scripts for the new talent system. It gives me kind of a headache, as I need to learn LUA to create all the required object data efficiently. Using engineering upgrades to change hero skills is a pain in the ass, especially when there are 210 talents in the game (4*3*5 base class talents + 5*3*10 advanced class talents). That means I need 210 abilities to emulate a proper UI (of which 150 already exist, but are inside levelable abilities, so all this data needs to be extracted before).
And I definitely won't copy and paste all the descriptions manually...

 

[ALEXz407]

Yeah that is right, I want to try to avoid having "too much of the same" ... hence why every item will be upgradable for a minor stat boost (on the same level).

So we are talking about being able to upgrade Gaelas Cap to Gaelas Cap +1 instead of making it a level 50 item.
A possible alternative would be to be able to upgrade the quality tier of the item by one.
So a level 10 Gaelas Cap would become a level 10 Gaelas Cap

It seems that this system will encourage additional runs at dungeons for enchanting materials farming. Sounds good if this is done correctly.
I think you need to add different materials for each leveling zone: d1, d2, d3&ogres, hills, d4. Otherwise, we will get a situation where farming d1 for mats will be new evolution of grinding.

I can agree what upgrading all items to almost equal stats at level 50 can be boring (I personally like diversity in outfitting what this solution will bring).

But unique items like bard's instruments, necromancer's skulls and items with procs should be upgraded to level 50. Is it possible to use two-step upgrades for them? First upgrade with actual level enchant materials and second with endgame enchant materials.
Something like Searing Gloves (pre d3) => Enchanted Searing Gloves (d3+) => Molten Gloves (endgame)
Or Spiritual Flute (d3) => Enchanted Spiritual Flute (d3+) => Enlightening Flute (endgame)

This will add more interest into crafting. Some cool items are only craftable, but with bad luck and without grinding you will get them only when bonuses already weak compared to items from vendors/mobs. Honestly, I've never seen crafted The Basilisk's Talon. It is awesome, but not worth the effort (exception - very high luck with ingredients drop).

I'm currently going over the scripts for the new talent system. It gives me kind of a headache, as I need to learn LUA to create all the required object data efficiently. Using engineering upgrades to change hero skills is a pain in the ass, especially when there are 210 talents in the game (4*3*5 base class talents + 5*3*10 advanced class talents). That means I need 210 abilities to emulate a proper UI (of which 150 already exist, but are inside levelable abilities, so all this data needs to be extracted before).
And I definitely won't copy and paste all the descriptions manually...

As an option - you can make alpha build with removed skills + added talents only for base classes + without -save function + with free talents respec. So you can get feedback faster. However, it is still around 1/3 of work, but it will be creating new functions, not refactoring old .

I made some sketches of advanced class talents (using around 80%-90% from current backpack talents). Maybe it will give you some inspiration?

Bishop

5:
- +30 MP & +10% MP
- Heal power up to SPx6
- Heal base cast time reduced to 2 sec & manacost to 8

10:
- +30 HP & +10% HP
- evasion +7%
- run speed +15%

15:
- +2 SP & +7% SP
- +5% spell haste
- +5% crit chance & +15% spell crit damage

20:
- Souls Strike power up to SPx4 and manacost to 10
- Soul Strike on debuffed with Crippling Curse targets hit for SPx0.33 AoE in 150 radius
- Each Crippling Curse tick adds 1 SP & 1% SP for 5 seconds, stacks up to 5 times

25:
- Attack speed bonus of 'Symbol of Fury' increased by 10%.
- Resistance bonus granted by 'Confidence' increased by 10%.
*- 'Burst of Light' cooldown reduced to 30 sec but healing amount also reduced to SPx2.5

30:
?- Chance to score a critical hit with spells on targets debuffed by 10% (15%?).
- Spell Haste increased by 10%.
?- 5% (8%?) increased spell power.

35:
- 'Weakened Soul' spell damage malus on 'Soul Strike' removed.
- Critical hits generate 50% less threat.
- All magic and shadow damage dealt heals allies in range by 3% of the damage dealt.

40:
*- +30 MP & +10% MP
- 'Crippling Curse' replenishes 2 Mana per tick.
*- 'Heal' mana cost reduced by 2 MP and 'Flash of Light' by 3 MP.

45:
- 50% chance to reset all cooldowns when scoring a critical hit with spells [effect can only occur once every 30 seconds].
- Cooldown of 'Criplling Curse' reduced by 50%.
- Cooldown of 'Mend' reduced ny 30%.

50: -

Monk

5:
- +30 MP & +10% MP
- Heal power up to SPx6
- Heal base cast time reduced to 2 sec & manacost to 8

10:
- +30 HP & +10% HP
- evasion +7%
- run speed +15%

15:
- +2 SP & +7% SP
- +5% spell haste
- +5% crit chance & +15% spell crit damage

20:
- Souls Strike power up to SPx4 and manacost to 10
- Soul Strike on debuffed with Crippling Curse targets hit for SPx0.33 AoE in 150 radius
- Each Crippling Curse tick adds 1 SP & 1% SP for 5 seconds, stacks up to 5 times

25:
?- Armor increased by 10% (15%?)
- Evasion also affects attacks from behind
?- Increases threat generated by 10% (20%?) when 'Steel Body' is active

30:
*- 'Symbol of Fury' buffs one target like bard's song
- 'Body and Mind' chance to trigger increased by 3%
- Increases duration of 'Divine Fist' by 2 seconds

35:
- Chance to score a critical hit increased by 15%
?- Increases attack speed by 5% (10%?)
- Attacks against targets debuffed with 'Crippling Curse' ignore armor

40:
?- 5% (10%?) chance on attack to debuff the target with 'Crippling Curse'
- 'Stone Skin' Cooldown reduced by 50%
- Evasion also affects physical damage caused by abilities [does not protect from debuffs or special effects].

45:
- 'Divine Fist' finishing attack deals splash damage in small radius.
- 'Steel Body' spell restrictions removed
- Immunity to critical hits

50: -

Sorcerer

5:
- +15% Fire & +10% Shadow damage
- +15% Magic & +10% Lightning damage
- +1 SP & +5% SP & +10% Water damage

10:
- +30 MP & +10% MP
- Frost cage emits aura that reduce enemy run speed by 30% in 200 AoE around caged target
- Dispel cost reduced to 0 but cast time increased to 1 sec

15:
- +5% spell haste
- +5% crit chance & +15% spell crit damage
- +2 SP & +7% SP

20:
- Frost cage duration x2 if target soaked
- Meteor strike dazes enemies -75% run speed for 5 sec
- Fire Shield can be applied to one target as bard's song

25:
?- 'Fireball' area of effect increased by 20% (50%?)
- Chance to score a critical hit with fire and water spells increased by 10%
- Increases chance to score a critical hit with lightning or magic spells by 15%.

30:
*- +30 MP & +10% MP
?- Replenishes 1 (2?) Mana when scoring a critical hit with spells.
- 'Fire Shield' also increases armor of the target by 20%.

35:
*- +25% spell crit damage & critical hits with spells generate 50% less threat
- Increases spell haste by 10%.
?- Spell power increased by 5% (8%?)

40:
- 'Water Ball' reduces the spell haste of 'soaked' targets by 10%
- Cooldown of 'Frost Cage' reduced by 30%
*- 'Water Elemental' replaced with 'Frost Elemental'. Frost Elemental has frost aura with 200 AoE -20% run speed & SPx0.1 aggro per sec, and attacks in melee with very slow attack for SPx1 water damage.
DPS should be lower than Water Elemental's for around 40%. Aggro enough to keep mobs grouped around, but easily break with single target spell or early AoE. Armor = SPx0.5, max HP = Sorcerer's max HPx1.5, Run speed = Normal.

45:
*- 'Meteor Strike' summons multiple boulders, spreading the area of effect over a wide area. Cooldown reduced to 60 sec and cost inreased to 30 MP
- When scoring a critical hit with 'Lightning Charge', the lightning will strike one additional target nearby
*- Duration of 'Summon Water/Frost Elemental' increased by 40 seconds.

50: -

Necromancer

5:
- +15% Fire & +10% Shadow damage
- +15% Magic & +10% Lightning damage
- +1 SP & +5% SP & +10% Water damage

10:
- +30 MP & +10% MP
- Frost cage emits aura that reduce enemy run speed by 30% in 200 AoE around caged target
- Dispel cost reduced to 0 but cast time increased to 1 sec

15:
- +5% spell haste
- +5% crit chance & +15% spell crit damage
- +2 SP & +7% SP

20:
- Frost cage duration x2 if target soaked
- Meteor strike dazes enemies -75% run speed for 5 sec
- Fire Shield can be applied to one target as bard's song

25:
- Skeletons and Skeleton Mages can be summoned without a corpse nearby.
?- 'Fire Shield' also increases all resistances of the target by 10% (20%?)
*- +40 HP & +15% HP

30:
?- Increases spell power by 5% (8%?).
- Increases spell haste by 10%
- Increases chance to score a critical hit with fire and shadow spells by 15%

35:
- Increases armor reduction of 'Detonating Bones' by 20%
- Increases the duration of 'Frost Cage' by 10 seconds
- Whenever a skeleton minion dies, there is a 50% chance the skeleton will be reanimated with full Mana and 35% of maximum life.

40:
- Skeletons and Skeleton Mage minions have a 15% improved chance to score a critical hit.
- Reduces casting time of 'Fireball' by 0.5 seconds
*- 'Curse of the Vampire' damage increased to SPx5

45:
- Allows Skeletons to use the 'Bash' ability.
- Enchants the weapons of all skeleton minions with fire, adding 15% of damage dealt as fire damage to their attacks
- 'Curse of the Vampire' also recovers Mana to all allies around (3% of damage dealt)

50: -

Crusader

5:
- +40 HP & +15% HP
- +2 Armor & +7% Armor
- Evasion +5%

10:
- Hateful Strike also stun 2 closest targets
- Hateful Strike stun duration increased to 2 sec
- Gaping Wounds reduce target spell haste by 10%

15:
- Taunt inflicts damage APx0.5
- Shield Slam damage now scaled with APx2
- Revenge cooldown reduced to 40 sec, but it cost 30 mana

20:
- Critical attacks with two-handed weapon stuns target for 1 sec [effect can occur once every 10 seconds]
- Each parry grants 300 AoE buff +10% attack speed & +5% spell haste for 5 sec (10 sec cd)
- Heroic Presence doesn't increase aggro, but turns into aura +5% crit chance & +1 armor & +5% armor

25:
- Increases the time a taunted enemy will ignore other targets by 2 seconds.
?- All threat generated on enemies that are not attacking the Crusader is increased by 25% (50%?).
*- +40 HP & +15% HP

30:
*- Attack Power increased by 30% and parry chance by 15% when wielding Two-handed weapon.
With a two-handed weapon crusader loses one item slot (armor, stats and 20% all frontal damage diminishing) therefore bonus should be significant.
?- Cooldown of 'Crucify' and 'Shield Slam' is reduced by 10% (20%?).
*- Crusader runs to target (300% run speed) when 'Shield Slam' used. Damage increased by Armor x0.25 and additionaly by Armor x0.25 per 100 range (max 500 range counted). If traveled distance becomes greater than 1000 skill fails.

35:
?- 'Parry' chance to reduce damage increased by 5% (15%?).
- When 'Heroic Presence' is active, all physical damage taken by the Crusader is reduced by 10% [applied before armor rules]
- When the hitpoints of the Crusader are below 25% of the current maximum, all damage taken is reduced by 50% [applied after armor and resistance rules]

40:
- 15% increased chance to score a critical hit.
?- Attacks against enemies casting a spell deals 15% (30%?) more damage [applied after armor and resistance rules].
*- 'Gaping Wounds' duration increased by 6 seconds. Instant damage increased to APx1 and DoT to APx3.

45:
- All magic damage dealt by the Crusader generates 30% more threat.
- 25% reduced cooldown of 'Hateful Strike', 'Gaping Wounds' and 'Revenge'.
- 5% chance to reset all cooldowns when attacking enemies with the standard attack [effect can only occur once every 30 seconds].

50: -

Berserker

5:
- +40 HP & +15% HP
- +2 Armor & +7% Armor
- Evasion +5%

10:
- Hateful Strike also stun 2 closest targets
- Hateful Strike stun duration increased to 2 sec
- Gaping Wounds reduce target spell haste by 10%

15:
- Taunt inflicts damage APx0.5
- Shield Slam damage now scaled with APx2
- Revenge cooldown reduced to 40 sec, but it cost 30 mana

20:
- Critical attacks with two-handed weapon stuns target for 1 sec [effect can occur once every 10 seconds]
- Each parry grants 300 AoE buff +10% attack speed & +5% spell haste for 5 sec (10 sec cd)
- Heroic Presence doesn't increase aggro, but turns into aura +5% crit chance & +1 armor & +5% armor

25:
*- 'Taunt' converted into 400 AoE notarget aggro
- All healing recieved increased by 20%.
- 10% increased Evasion.

30:
?- Successful melee attacks have a 10% (20%?) chance to interrupt enemy spellcasting.
- Every tick of 'Gaping Wounds' replenishes 1 Mana.
- 'Demoralizing Shout' Attack Power reduction increased by 5%.

35:
- 10% increased attack power.
- Attack Speed increased by 5%.
- 'Berserker's Rage' damage received malus removed.

40:
- Increases chance to score a critical hit by 10%.
- 50% chance to debuff the current target with 'Gaping Wounds' when scoring a critical hit.
- Two-handed weapons may hit one additional target.

45:
*- 'Berserker's Rage' can stack up to 15 times.
?- 25% (50%?) reduced Cooldown on 'Heaven's Edge' and 'Lightning Blade'.
?- 15% (20%?) increased Attack Power with one handed weapons.

50: -

Assassin

5:
- +5% crit chance & +15% physical crit damage
- +10% attack speed
- abilities damage +15%

10:
- +30 HP & +10% HP
- -20% Aggro
- +15% Run speed

15:
- 8 sec (4 sec on bosses) stun duration if Backstab used from Stealth
- +10 sec Dazing Trap sleep duration
- +10 sec Embrittling Acid duration

20:
- Backstab applies bleeding DoT APx0.5 damage per sec for 7 sec while Sweeping Blades active
- Blurred Motions buffs +15% attack speed for 5 sec
- Embrittling Acid ticks for APx0.1 poison damage every second

25:
- Increases chance to score a critical hit by 10%.
- Increases attack power by 5%.
- Increases attack speed by 5%.

30:
- Removes movement speed penalty when stealthed.
- 'Backstab' also interrupts the target.
- 'Embrittling Acid' also reduces all resistances of the target by 10%.

35:
?- Critical damage factor increased by 50% (40%?).
- Increases damage dealt when attacking targets from behind by 10%.
*- abilities damage +15%

40:
- Increases duration of 'Sweeping Blades' by 10 seconds.
- Cooldown of 'Backstab' and 'Bladefury' reduced by 25%.
*- Assassin instantly teleports behind the target in 500 range when 'Backstab' or 'Bladefury' used. [if teleport isn't possible, abilities used normally and counted as attacks from behind]

45:
- 3% chance to reset all cooldowns when dealing damage with standard attacks [effect can only occur once every 30 seconds].
- Attacks from behind the target will ignore armor.
- When receiving an otherwise deadly blow, the assassin will avoid all incoming damage for 2 seconds [effect can only occur once every 30 seconds].

50: -

Bard

5:
- +5% crit chance & +15% physical crit damage
- +10% attack speed
- abilities damage +15%

10:
- +30 HP & +10% HP
- -20% Aggro
- +15% Run speed

15:
- 8 sec (4 sec on bosses) stun duration if Backstab used from Stealth
- +10 sec Dazing Trap sleep duration
- +10 sec Embrittling Acid duration

20:
- Backstab applies bleeding DoT APx0.5 damage per sec for 7 sec while Sweeping Blades active
- Blurred Motions buffs +15% attack speed for 5 sec
- Embrittling Acid ticks for APx0.1 poison damage every second

25:
- 'Song of Peace' also increases spell haste of the target by 5%.
?- 'Song of Elements' also increases resistances against fire, water and lightning damage by 10% (20%?).
- 'Song of Vigor' strength bonus increased by 30%.

30:
?- Attack speed increased by 5% (10%?).
- Critical damage factor increased by 30%.
*- abilities damage +15%

35:
*- +40 MP & +15% MP
- 'Inspire' Cooldown reduced by 25%.
- Increases armor reduction of 'Embrittling Acid' by 15%.

40:
*- 'Sweeping Blades' becomes toggleable, but decreases AP by 30% when active
?- Cooldown of 'Backstab' and 'Sweeping Blades' reduced by 25% (33%?).
- 25% chance on attack to deal 30% of attack power as lightning damage.

45:
- When a unit is being killed, there is a 35% chance to get a second roll on the droptable.
- Allows for one additional song to be active on the same target.
- When the bard is not the current main target of an attacked enemy, there is a 5% chance to enter stealth mode [effect can only occur once every 30 seconds].

50: -

Hunter

5:
- Servant of Nature summons Bear with +40% aggro & +20% armor. When bear summoned, ranger receives 'Fortitude of the Forest' buff that increases ranger's Armor by LVLx0.2 points.
- Servant of Nature summons Wolf with +20% run speed & +20% damage. When wolf summoned, ranger receives 'Fury of the Wilds' buff that increases ranger's STR by LVLx0.2 points.
- Servant of Nature summons Hawk with -40% aggro & +20% attack speed. When hawk summoned, ranger receives 'Clarity of the Plains' buff that increases ranger's INT by LVLx0.2 points.
Base Servant of Nature stats can be nerfed a bit to fit better with bonuses. Without talent selected Servant of Nature summons Dog.

10:
- Flaming Arrow DoT damage doubled
- Claw Strike does not create additional aggro but damage increased to PAPx3
- Ensnared targets ticks for SPx0.5 Lightning damage in 200 AoE every 2 seconds.

15:
- +5% crit chance +15% physical crit damage
- +10% attack speed
- +20% Pet stat score

20:
- +30 HP & +10% HP
- +15% evasion
- +20% all resistances

25:
- All threat generated by damage is reduced by 20%.
- Servant of Nature becomes immune to critical hits.
- Increases attack speed of the Servant of Nature by 10%.

30:
- Attacks ignore enemy evasion.
- Each point of Agility also adds 0.5 to armor penetration.
- Increases chance to score a critical hit by 15%.

35:
*- Increases Hunter's and Pet's attack speed by 5%.
- Cooldown of 'Claw Strike' and 'Beast Fury' reduced by 25%
- 'Claw Strike' deals damage in a small area of effect.

40:
*- Increases duration of 'Flaming Arrow' by 6 seconds and reduces cooldown by 2 seconds.
- Cooldown of 'Multishot' and 'Magic Arrow' reduced by 25%.
*- Autoattacks have 20% chance to hit target again with ghostly arrow for APx0.5 magic damage

45:
- 5% chance to reset all cooldowns when dealing damage with standard attacks [effect can only occur once every 30 seconds].
- Critical strikes will poison the target, reducing spell haste, movement and attack speed by 10% for 6 seconds.
*- Cooldowns reduced: 'Ensnare' to 10 seconds, 'Feline Reflexes' to 20 seconds and 'Barbed Arrow' to 45 seconds

50: -

Druid

5:
- Servant of Nature summons Bear with +40% aggro & +20% armor. When bear summoned, ranger receives 'Fortitude of the Forest' buff that increases ranger's Armor by LVLx0.2 points.
- Servant of Nature summons Wolf with +20% run speed & +20% damage. When wolf summoned, ranger receives 'Fury of the Wilds' buff that increases ranger's STR by LVLx0.2 points.
- Servant of Nature summons Hawk with -40% aggro & +20% attack speed. When hawk summoned, ranger receives 'Clarity of the Plains' buff that increases ranger's INT by LVLx0.2 points.
Base Servant of Nature stats can be nerfed a bit to fit better with bonuses. Without talent selected Servant of Nature summons Dog.

10:
- Flaming Arrow DoT damage doubled
- Claw Strike does not create additional aggro but damage increased to PAPx3
- Ensnared targets ticks for SPx0.5 Lightning damage in 200 AoE every 2 seconds.

15:
- +5% crit chance +15% physical crit damage
- +10% attack speed
- +20% Pet stat score

20:
- +30 HP & +10% HP
- +15% evasion
- +20% all resistances

25:
*- +40 MP & +15% MP
- Maximum Mana of spirits increased by 15%
- Increases spell haste of spirits by 30%.

30:
- Increases spell haste by 10%.
- Increases spell power by 10%.
?- Increases chance to score a critical hit by 5% (15%?).

35:
- Increases range of 'Remedy' by 50%.
- Cooldown of 'Nature's Blessing' reduced by 25%.
- Increases duration of 'Feline Reflexes' by 5 seconds.

40:
?- Increases armor penetration by 25% (50%?).
- Each point of intelligence also adds 0.2 poison damage to the standard attack.
?- Cooldown of 'Barbed Arrow' and 'Flaming Arrow' reduced by 25% (50%?).

45:
- When using healing spells on other targets, the caster is also healed by 50% of the healed amount.
- Allows to summon both Efreet and Servant of Nature at the same time.
- Allows to summon both Efreet and Dryad at the same time.

50: -

Keywords for 25-45 talents: '?' - suggested change in values, '*' - new/heavily modified talent.

 

[ALEXz407]

Just a picture with skill icons organized in suggested Squire talent tree.

Perhaps I have too much free time. >_>

 

[kevs926]

so this means at the first 9 levels i have 8 extra skill points i cant use

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Wow, you really have way too much time... these pictures are great.

But yeah, that's basicly how it will look like. Except that talents start at 10, not at 5. So 9 tiers total.

@kevs: obviously, you only get 1 point every 5 levels.

 

[ALEXz407]

But yeah, that's basicly how it will look like. Except that talents start at 10, not at 5. So 9 tiers total.

Let these pictures to motivate you to make talents system for base classes .

 

[doubtful]

But yeah, that's basicly how it will look like. Except that talents start at 10, not at 5. So 9 tiers total.

@kevs: obviously, you only get 1 point every 5 levels.

How exactle will this work?
There isnt skill tree anymore? There are the skills and we get to choose which skills we want on each level? Can we choose lets say all 3 skills that level 5 offers us?

 

[GasQueen]

If I understood correctly, there will be no more stats. Instead, we will get to choose 1 out of 3 "talents" for our class every 5 levels, starting from level 10.

What I'm not certain of is, howewer, which talent line will appear at level 25? Will it still be a talent for the base class? Or are we going to have to advance our class for the talent point to appear first?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

If I understood correctly, there will be no more stats. Instead, we will get to choose 1 out of 3 "talents" for our class every 5 levels, starting from level 10.

Correct.

What I'm not certain of is, howewer, which talent line will appear at level 25? Will it still be a talent for the base class? Or are we going to have to advance our class for the talent point to appear first?

It will be a (unique) base class talent.

The code base for the new system is done now.
Only the object data is left now. And of course the base class talents. But as those are pretty basic, I don't think this will take long. Except for the "ultimates" at level 25, which usually have an effect on skills that might have a bigger impact on the playstyle.

In the meantime, I received almost all of the remaining skins from Daenar7 (almost all of the missing endgame item skins). Only 2 more need to be done for the complete set.

 

[PachaXD]

The code base for the new system is done now.
Only the object data is left now. And of course the base class talents. But as those are pretty basic, I don't think this will take long. Except for the "ultimates" at level 25, which usually have an effect on skills that might have a bigger impact on the playstyle.

Great news for a new great way of gameplay! really looking forward for this thanks ones more Zwieb, this talents systems seems just like the best way to keep this great game improving.