Music / Sound Effects - (A new category to put under Maps & Resources)

[BlackEnvyX]

It's no secret that myself and many other users on here are dedicated, hardworking musicians. It's also no secret that we love Warcraft III. So something that I feel would be an absolutely wonderful addition to the site would be a section where users who make their own music and / or sound effects could post them to be used on people's maps.

Several years ago this wasn't as feasible due to the limited size of maps allowed on B.net (meaning essentially music and SFX were limited to single player maps unless heavily compressed). But with the increased map size, increased B.net download speed, (and an upcoming increase in map size allowed and download speed again when Reforged comes out), this means it's now a viable option, and would provide an extra layer of depth to the Hive's resources.

Obviously strict guidelines would be in place (only original compositions / sound effects, no copyrighted materials allowed), but I feel like this would be a wonderful addition to the site.

What do you all think?

 

[deepstrasz]

Something like this has been brought up a long time ago, especially related to unit soundsets. Well, for now, I guess we'll have to stick to threads in the Sound/Music forum

 

[BlackEnvyX]

Something like this has been brought up a long time ago, especially related to unit soundsets. Well, for now, I guess we'll have to stick to threads in the Sound/Music forum

I hope that maybe it could be given an additional look now that Warcraft III as a whole is more prepared for it.

 

[Veritas 117]

I have often thought this would be a nice addition. I have always wanted to browse sound effects to use the same way I browse models and other resources. Good idea!

 

[BlackEnvyX]

I have often thought this would be a nice addition. I have always wanted to browse sound effects to use the same way I browse models and other resources. Good idea!

It would be so nice to have a base resource of sound effects, songs and such to use in Warcraft III maps. The same old music does get a fair bit annoying after a while, and it'll be nice to not have to compress songs to such an insane degree anymore like before.

 

[deepstrasz]

I'm not seeing how such a resource forum would help out with the music bit/format issues and how people are not already able to use what music they want in their maps not to bore you with the game's original.

 

[BlackEnvyX]

I'm not seeing how such a resource forum would help out with the music bit/format issues and how people are not already able to use what music they want in their maps not to bore you with the game's original.

The only issues I had beforehand were with the limited map size (which Blizzard has now patched, and will increase again when Reforged drops), otherwise I haven't had any issues importing music. It's incredibly easy to convert music to any bit rate now even for those who don't have advanced DAW interfaces like you and I do. It's more or less about giving people an extra reason to come to the Hive, and cementing the Hive as a place that has "all" the resources to help with the creation of a Warcraft III map.

 

[Daffa]

I can see this being useful, but there's more to consider than just "creating" the section itself
Let's see... we can start with section-specific rules, followed with moderation mechanics for this section and then appointing people on duty.

I'm all for having new section though.

@Ralle might want to consider this addition.

 

[Map Designer]

will only be useful with request subforum

 

[BlackEnvyX]

will only be useful with request subforum

What would the request subforum have to do with this? There's tons of music that people on the Hive have already made that would be very easy to post.

 

[Daffa]

will only be useful with request subforum

We already have Request sub forum. This is about making an outlet for all the non-request materials self-owned by sound and music makers to be uploaded formally here. From my view, it would allow us to give more to the user and provide more options.

 

[Map Designer]

What would the request subforum have to do with this? There's tons of music that people on the Hive have already made that would be very easy to post.

a subforum where you request sound specific for your model/ability/etc.

 

[BlackEnvyX]

We already have Request sub forum. This is about making an outlet for all the non-request materials self-owned by sound and music makers to be uploaded formally here. From my view, it would allow us to give more to the user and provide more options.

Exactly.

a subforum where you request sound specific for your model/ability/etc.

Not as professional or user friendly as making it an actual resource section

 

[Map Designer]

Not as professional or user friendly as making it an actual resource section

the sound request section would be a sub-forum of the sound resource section you speak of. How is that going to be 'unprofessional' or 'user-unfriendly'? if you could please elaborate. Thanks!


Edit: the reason why I thought a sound request subforum will greatly enable the sound resources is that most resources (Campaigns, Cinamatics, Maps, Models, Weapons, spells) Have no sounds specified for them. they either have a silent narrator, or use some un-fitting blizzard pre-made sounds. thus, there will be plenty of resources in this regard.

 

[BlackEnvyX]

the sound request section would be a sub-forum of the sound resource section you speak of. How is that going to be 'unprofessional' or 'user-unfriendly'? if you could please elaborate. Thanks!


Edit: the reason why I thought a sound request subforum will greatly enable the sound resources is that most resources (Campaigns, Cinamatics, Maps, Models, Weapons, spells) Have no sounds specified for them. they either have a silent narrator, or use some un-fitting blizzard pre-made sounds. thus, there will be plenty of resources in this regard.

So if there would be tons of resources in that regard, why not just make it a Resource Submission like other resources?
It would be unprofessional because it would be a collection of resources made in a way that is completely different than the way other resources are submitted.

 

[Map Designer]

So if there would be tons of resources in that regard, why not just make it a Resource Submission like other resources?
It would be unprofessional because it would be a collection of resources made in a way that is completely different than the way other resources are submitted.

I dont think any one said there should be no section like others. All I said was that this very section will have a subforum (which means it must be there already) lol.

Edit: nvm I guess someone said. it wast me anyway

 

[BlackEnvyX]

I dont think any one said there should be no section like others. All I said was that this very section will have a subforum (which means it must be there already) lol.

Edit: nvm I guess someone said. it wast me anyway

ahh you were saying it'll be a resource section like the other, just with an additional sub section

 

[Trill]

This is a fantastic idea. I went looking for voice sets recently and found a few thread with expired pastebin links... And its not handy. You can search the Music forum, but come on. You can't see music/voices in peoples' resources, you can't rate the resource properly, search is not as good as in resource section, etc.
Plus, most importantly, lack of proper resource section deters people from making those things themselves. Or the thought just doesn't occur to them!
I'm sure people would make a lot more voice sets and music and stuff if they had a constant reminder - I'd even say a challenge - looking at them when they are browsing resources.

I can see this being useful, but there's more to consider than just "creating" the section itself
Let's see... we can start with section-specific rules, followed with moderation mechanics for this section and then appointing people on duty.

I'm all for having new section though.

@Ralle might want to consider this addition.

Okay, how about this: Sound sets must be at least 75% user's own recordings, and at the same time not be recordings of someone else's work.
Edits of Blizzard sounds are allowed if they are high enough quality and useful (and please, please, please, get rid of that "substandard" nonsense, it makes search a hassle and serves no purpose but stroking the ego of some people).
Effects are allowed as long as the tool in question allows non-profit blah-blah-blah, but user's own work must be heard under all the effects and be the main theme (for lack of better word) of the recording (i.e. so people don't just take a sound of cat burp, shower it with billion effects so you can barely hear the cat, and call it "Super magic elven dragon spell.wav" - unless it ends up sounding really good).
User should probably mention tools used in the description, both for legal and educational purposes.

Voice sets have a minimum of 2 What, 3 Yes, and 2 YesAttack responses, Ready and Warcry are strongly recommended to have to.
Users are required to submit the generic voice set that fits his submitted files (e.g. that minimum is based on Hydrolisk soundset, so user would have to specify its inteded to replace Creep/Hydrolisk sounds)
Exceptions can be made if user is specifically aiming to replace something tiny, like Zombie or Wolf soundset.
Probably a good thought to require the user to write the lines of voice set in the description, so anyone can quickly see if the voice set fits them.

Obviously sound must fit in Warcraft III style, not be overly loud, no overly long lines for voice sets, size as low as possible, etc etc etc.

Oh, and it should be linkable with models/skins/icons/spells, in case someone is making a sound set for a specific model or spell or map.

 

[deepstrasz]

Sound sets must be at least 75% user's own recordings, and at the same time not be recordings of someone else's work.

That's funny. I'd love an essay on it.

Voice sets have a minimum of 2 What, 3 Yes, and 2 YesAttack responses, Ready and Warcry are strongly recommended to have to.

Sure but first, BlizzEnt has to make custom sound sets a thing.

Obviously sound must fit in Warcraft III style, not be overly loud, no overly long lines for voice sets, size as low as possible, etc etc etc.

Well, it depends on what people are working on... Some do creative (non-Warcraft) stuff even though within the World Editor.

 

[Trill]

Sure but first, BlizzEnt has to make custom sound sets a thing.

So far it would be intended to replace existing ones. Hydrolisk, Runner, Malfurion would be common picks, I guess.

Well, it depends on what people are working on... Some do creative stuff even though within the World Editor.

Well, such things would be judged on case-by-case basis. Rules would be for general stuff. I mean, isn't it the same way with models/skins?

 

[deepstrasz]

I mean, isn't it the same way with models/skins?

Well, yeah, we have models that really don't look Warcraft III at all but hey, that's actually throwing the horse glasses away.

Hydrolisk

Evolution complete!

Spoiler

 

[Rui]

So something that I feel would be an absolutely wonderful addition to the site would be a section where users who make their own music and / or sound effects could post them to be used on people's maps.

Before the Hive embarks on that, it should be aware of the possible consequences. See what's happened to Newgrounds not so long ago.

TL;DR: Big companies actively sniff audio using Google's audio analysis algorithms for copyrighted material, submit takedown notices to Google automatically (even though automatically is illegal), and even file lawsuits.

Even if the section is heavily policed, I doubt the Hive can hire moderators that know every commercialized soundwave on the planet. Coincidences happen, and sometimes you end up reinventing the wheel. E.g. I always found it funny how Dulce Ponte's "Canção do Mar" sounds similar to "Protoss 1". (There is actually a version of "Canção do Mar" in which the instruments are the same, so it sounds even closer.)

 

[The_Silent]

One of the arguments against it in the past was the difficulty of curbing copyright infringements.

I fear this is even more relevant today as of europes newish copyright laws. User shared copyrighted music might even get TheHiveWorkshop taken down if it gets out of hand.

 

[Rui]

One of the arguments against it in the past was the difficulty of curbing copyright infringements.

Indeed, but at the time I don't think anyone mentioned that big companies were using bots all over the Web to sniff for them.

 

[The_Silent]

We would probably need one too, to be proactive about it.

 

[deepstrasz]

it funny how Dulce Ponte's "Canção do Mar" sounds similar to "Protoss 1".

Not at all. It's such a long stretch that it doesn't even matter.

Before the Hive embarks on that, it should be aware of the possible consequences. See what's happened to Newgrounds not so long ago.

Also, this is drama. We're not selling. If something is illegal we'll just take it down.

 

[Rui]

If something is illegal we'll just take it down.

That's just the problem: 1) you don't know every music and song, therefore you can't know if it's copyrighted or not, and whether the resource you're moderating is infringing — and “illegal” in that regard —; 2) even if you did, the bot can disagree with you, as I suspect it would in the example I provided, and as is hinted in ADR3-N's article; 3) it'll file takedown requests long before you find out.
Nevertheless, @The_Silent's suggestion could work well.

 

[deepstrasz]

1) you don't know every music and song, therefore you can't know if it's copyrighted or not, and whether the resource you're moderating is infringing — and “illegal” in that regard —; 2) even if you did, the bot can disagree with you, as I suspect it would in the example I provided, and as is hinted in ADR3-N's article; 3) it'll file takedown requests long before you find out.

We shall ask for screenshots and stuff like that as we do in music contests. I mean, what the heck, that could have happened with those if those bots actually infiltrate as you say the do.
Who cares about reports? The companies should verify what their bots are doing. If not, they are the ones who should risk legal issues.

 

[Ralle]

My answer has always been yes, but later. Still is today. I am in the process of rewriting the whole site to work on the next version of our forum system. When I am done with that and it works nicely, I will consider a music/soundset section .

 

[Ralle]

We could also just make the sound section so you have to be logged in.

 

[deepstrasz]

We could also just make the sound section so you have to be logged in.

Don't we need an account to upload resources anyway?

 

[Ralle]

Sure but I mean when downloading. This would exclude bots from automatically checking. There would need to be a person or smarter bot

 

[deepstrasz]

Sure but I mean when downloading. This would exclude bots from automatically checking. There would need to be a person or smarter bot

Ah! Indeed then! Also, an anti-bot checker code That would really make users lose their minds.

 

[Wrda]

The copyright laws most of the time is pretty much garbage...Imagine, if i'm going to do an orchestration of a part from the Rite of Spring by Stravinsky, use it in my map, and upload it here, is that going to be copyright infrigement? That would be completely retarded. A good artist doesn't imitate, he steals and manipulates the music in his way. The copyright laws in these kind of stuff just show how ignorant and close-minded people are.

You need to ask permission from the owner of the song

From who? Dead Stravinsky? Do I also need permission to make a t-shirt with drawing of Sonic characters for myself to use?
Sounds like Ligeti when a piece of his work was used for a movie soundstrack, he just made a giant drama instead of being grateful for becoming known and watching his music being played.

 

[Daffa]

I have a map here with a copyrighted song used in it, and so far, no issues with it. Most of the time, they shouldn't be bothering but we're taking safety precautions here. Locking bot would be necessary to avoid mess they bring out with mp3 and wav files for sound section though.

 

[deepstrasz]

A good artist doesn't imitate, he steals and manipulates the music in his way.

A good thief maybe. A good artist creates a style from what was learned and listened to.

 

[Wrda]

A good artist creates a style from what was learned and listened to.

That's precisely what steal means in art. And it was a quote from Stravinsky himself, a bit modified by me for clearness purposes.
https://lifehacker.com/an-artist-explains-what-great-artists-steal-really-me-1818808264

 

[loktar]

Would be really cool to have a repo of effects, voices and music ready to use!

Effects are allowed as long as the tool in question allows non-profit blah-blah-blah, but user's own work must be heard under all the effects and be the main theme (for lack of better word) of the recording (i.e. so people don't just take a sound of cat burp, shower it with billion effects so you can barely hear the cat, and call it "Super magic elven dragon spell.wav" - unless it ends up sounding really good).
User should probably mention tools used in the description, both for legal and educational purposes.

I don't think anything but the end result should be under any scrutiny. It's impossible to know what software was used to create a sound file, so it can't be enforced in any meaningful way. Also if someone creates a cool sound effect with no recording at all, just some creative audio editing, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.
And I don't think any artist is ever under any legal obligation to share which tools they use to create something. There's no rule for this in any of the other reource sections, so this shouldn't be any different.

So yeah, I don't think it would require too many specific rules not already covered in other sections.

 

[Trill]

I don't think anything but the end result should be under any scrutiny. It's impossible to know what software was used to create a sound file, so it can't be enforced in any meaningful way. Also if someone creates a cool sound effect with no recording at all, just some creative audio editing, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed.

I just thought that would emulate the "no just filters for icons/skins / no simple geoset edits for models" rules that Hive got.

 

[loktar]

Hmm, I think for sounds that would be more like taking an existing WC3 sound and making some simple changes to it, like maybe applying some audio filters or effects.