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Melee Mapping Contest #4 - Poll

Discussion in 'Poll Depository' started by mafe, Apr 26, 2019.

?

Cast your vote up to 5 entries: (READ THE RULES below before voting)

Poll closed May 11, 2019.
  1. Lordaeron Plaza by XanderD

    21.4%
  2. Hillsbrad Creek by Mr.Henci

    50.0%
  3. Overgrown Center by DuckDuckGoose

    7.1%
  4. The Consortium by Keito

    25.0%
  5. Vile Reef by JaleVeliki

    39.3%
  6. Stairs of Destiny by Ragnaros17

    14.3%
  7. King and Country by Meerel

    35.7%
  8. Forgotten Halls by mmtt

    14.3%
  9. Veilswamp by Khaldaiel

    3.6%
  10. Bandit's City by Rockstar356

    21.4%
  11. The Time Gates by Twilight

    14.3%
  12. Terrace Fields by Nudl9

    21.4%
  13. Underground Oasis by Blood Raven

    25.0%
  14. Venture Co. Shipyards by sentrywiz

    3.6%
  15. Westfall Adventure by FranzVader_CZ

    17.9%
  16. Guardians by Arrr

    14.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. -Manuel-

    -Manuel-

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    Well, my playing/developing skill for melee maps are poor, but for me the most good looking and the map that which i would play it's the Underground Oasis.

    His atmosphere its unique, remind me a bit to Un'goro crater.

    Well done.
     
  2. Khaldaiel

    Khaldaiel

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    I kind of feel a lot of hate and anger in the whole argument... And also a lot of disdain...

    - First of all, there is an originality note in the map current scoring system. Trying out things that people are not used to, is usually what people call 'originality'. Defending always the same build/maps because they are optimal is NOT a quality. It's call stalling... it becomes boring. That's why I don't see why we should not try to add these features that are 'unbalanced' or 'not fit for melee'. Being able to renew itself is a great mark of a living game... and let's be honest, I like war3, but it has been kind of dying until the last couple of years when blizzard looked into refreshing it again (with balance patches for example).

    - Secondly, 'unbalanced', 'optimality','melee' depends on the current meta/patch/mappool, and the game has evolved in the last 15 years, and it will evolve again, as it was promised with Warcraft3 reforged, which is a good part of this contest's context. Same thing, 'not fit for melee' depends on how we play melee. I don't see why we should play melee the same way we always did... Not wanting the game to change is weird : it has already... and it is still changing. It is what makes it alive.

    - And last, this is a contest open to everyone... including pro melee player. If they are not here in that big of a number, it's probably because they don't want to create maps and change the melee they know as much as "noob like us" want to.
    A game is not popular because pro player are playing it. A game is popular because a mass of "noob players" do like the game and because they are finding what the pro player do to be very cool... which makes the latter able to live out of their training. If pro player are doing boring repetitive things, less experimented players will leave the game, and pro player will leave as well because they won't be able to make a living of it... So... just refusing everything that pro don't do is ... shortsighted. The game is not only made by the pros and for the pros. "Noobs" have their word to say about it and that's why I don't see why @Nudl9 you find yourself offended by the fact that non-pro mapmakers are doing non-pro map and rating them with their "non-pro" point of view. In fact, I think that's the whole point of this contest. pro mapmaker doing pro maps rated by pros : only blizzard staff can do that. The only reason the juges are pro is to make sure we don't just all make excessively weird maps... But between excessively weird maps and lost_temple3.0 , there is a big gap that we (I think) are trying to fix.
     
  3. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    I'm not offended at all, because i'm not the one making melee maps with boats lol.
    All i've done is stated the irrefutable fact that boats are trash and that people shouldn't use them in their map.
    If you're offended by what i have to say i advise reading my critisms about boats because theres a large truthbomb right there.
    I said it during the the start of the contest as well, so it's not like i didn't warn people earlier.
    But i have no qualms saying that boat maps are trash.

    Maybe because i spoke too loudly.
    Boats are trash, people used them and the truth hurts.
    If you don't like what i have to say, again read my original post.

    ...........

    Anyway i wouldn't mind discussing non-boat topics, because i'm tired of continuing to beat on a dead horse.
    Yes, but you shouldn't take the uniqueness too literally. Is the use of outland tileset original? eh not really, it's a tileset players generally dislike. Using new creep types? Well we use a lot ogres and trolls for a reason. Players sort of know the math and how strong these units are, which is why they're used over and over again across all maps. So if you want to be a hipster and throw new units or tilesets into the mix you have to thread carefully. Because experimenting = more likely to fail

    Except people are making wierd maps and one of the judges is incompetent and will probably give points for wierd gimmick maps. So i will throw critisism where is see fit.

    Introducing boats and different merc. camps will ruin the competetive integrity of the game. Pro players want consistency. If you start introducing non-standard creeps they won't know how strong these creep camps are. Again i can't stress enough why people should read mafe's guide, he is one of the judges after all.

    These aren't things you can change. It's right there in the rules for the contest. If you don't follow Blizzards Melee Map Standards, your map is not eligible for BNET ladder. Your point about change is well.. lots of players will stop playing the game if you change too much too fast. Players dropped WC3 with 1.30 because they were upset, a lot of players dropped DOTA2 with the introduction of skill trees and i could go on about how poor decision making by developers caused a drop in players. A good game doesn't need changes and WC3 is one of those that have been played consistently for many years. So no changes aren't inherently good or even something people want. Super Smash Bros. Melee is a game that was released the same year as ROC and people still play it, even though there hasn't been a single patch since release.

    Pros doing boring metastuff every game? Sounds like any competetive game.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  4. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    And the quote of the year goes to:
    Glad humanity experimented so as not to still live in caves and stuff.
     
  5. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Uhh yeah it's pretty obvious that if you try to experiment, most of your attempts will fail.
    Until you find something new that works, which is why you experiment.

    So if you make an experimental map, well guess what it's probably going to fail.
    Just look at the current map poll and you'll see that the truth lies in the pudding.
     
  6. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    since you quoted mafe tutorial twice:

    "Why each player should have an expansion that is clearly closer to him than to the enemy, so that humans can reliably expand.

    The reasons here is one matchup: human vs undead. As of 1.28 (and the patchnotes of 1.29 wont make much of a change), this matchup is normally unwinnable for humans in a 1base vs 1base situation, assuming players of about equal skill. "

    thats why I couldnt digest the expanding system of Terrace field, and is somehow similar on my map Frostfloe Deep where from 4 expandings, 3 are near to the proper players and 1 is in competition.

    the people of discord pointed me that not all the players could expand confortably and equally talking, 3 expand safe, 1 expand more exposed, also they dont like to guess wich mine belongs to wich user, is like the map should be in such form that , that goldmine is to that player.

    In my map I put the more weak creep in the more far away expo to compensate the distance.
    In terrace field the creeps where Level 30, wich I think is hard to creep it alone and with high chance of creep- jacking
    (probably the idea is creep in coperation, I wanted that in my 4v4 and they didnt like that at all, they wanted solo creeping)

    Cigaro complained of my level 26 creep with a revenant level 6, you have the level 10 dragon in a level 30 creep!!
    also the people of Discord complained about my level 17-18 hard creeps in expanding goldmines for a 4v4 map, so a level 30 in a 2v2, no thanks)
    another thing they didnt like is the straight foward pathing from enemy base to enemy base,

    I would also like some AOW options in the gob lab , gob shop, merc camp for NE players , Orange liked to AOW the gob lab in Terenas Stand map.
    (about the merc camp, you can build but I wouldnt risk build to near the creeps, If I loose the ancient of war while building it, thats it)


    I can be wrong or missing something (because there are tons of things that I dont know, and I am no pro), or maybe you tested the map and worked perfectly as you wanted.

    but I considered that tutorial ,Discord feedback from the 3rd melee contest, and the expanding goldmine system as a key point, and also pm with some others users about maps before voting.

    still I would have voted Terrace Field map, I like the map, since is very solid in many points, I like the marketplace, tavern positions. But well only could vote 5 maps and I had to exclude others.

    All this is subjetive but I put effort before voting.
     
  7. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Maybe in 1v1, but not in 2v2.
    I don't remember the exact meta, but i think it's something like: UD+NE > fastexpand NE then feed UD tech T3.
    There are some exceptions like Avalance where you want to play HU and double gold mine, im not sure if Blizzard HU double mining on that map in LV, but that was a pretty fun aspect of that map.

    We've both made different type of maps, so different rules apply.

    I made my map in close relation with Sexytime and Gusch (2v2 expert), two players who play 2v2 frequently and sit on a comfortable 80% and i think 75% - winrate respectively.
    Since i didn't know the first thing about 2v2 maps i asked about 2v2 meta and for some good reference maps for inspiration.
    I took inspiration from avalance and synergy, since those are maps where players actually work together and were considered very fun.
    There is also a starved market for maps with close, but not too close main bases, so thats something i took into consideration as well.
    What i came up with was the layout of a centralised expansion that both players would work towards and defend.
    If you watch some gameplay videos you'll see that most fights are centered around expansion and thats where the fun lies, lots of back and forth fighting.
    Should the game run longer players will take advantage of the fountain or the hard expansions.

    Well ok so theres two things.
    1# Your map is smaller, the run distance to the enemy base is shorter and so the overall game length will be lower on average.
    Thats why you can't use the same level of difficulty on camps that i can. Personally i would have lowered it to 20 so that you could expand earlier. As double mines are pretty fun (see Avalance non-LV).
    2# The placement of your doublemine camp makes you want to run there with militia, but revenant 6 has chain lightning which wrecks them.

    A red level 30 camp might seem hard, but i've playtested pretty rigorously with feedback from several levels of players:
    So i used those people a lot for testing.
    The feedback i got was that a 26 camp was a little too easy.
    Since the game kind of naturally progress towards you having large armies by the time you want a second expansion.
    Anyway during playtesting it was crept fairly often so it's never been a problem during any of the games.
    So it feels pretty natural to take down as the game progresses.
     
  8. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    such level of info, I would have never guess it, is like have a russian book and need a translator to understand it.

    now I feel that compite against you, is like a battleship against an aircraft carrier in WWII.
    The battleship(me) is just a sitting duck and has no chance.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  9. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    It's not that complicated.
    Anyone can do it.
    As long as you actively try to seek out information, you can learn quickly.
    I've never done melee maps before this contest and so i started out with mafe's guide.
    Then i looked at some of the maps in the ladder pool, 1v1's and 2v2's - most popular tilesets, creeps, items.
    You can draw a lot of information from making observations.
    For example there are reoccuring trends with a particular camps reappearing (x2 trapper+ogre3), shop camps tend to be 16-18 with charged 3 drop.
    In general you want to look at stuff like base distance to trees and other such details.
    Though take this tip with a grain of salt because some the new maps suck: LV maps (almost all of them), Northeren Isles, Plunder Isle, Tirisfal Glades. Some actual good maps have been changed for the worse as well such as Terenas Stand and Murlocs Oasis.

    What you should also do is just ask people.
    Go on reddit, discords (this list is invalueable) or just ask streamers - ask around.
    The more specific the questions the better.
    For example you could have asked about the creep level on the goldmines if you weren't sure.

    Also testing.
    Test your map against computers or other players, even if you're shit at melee, you'll always find something to improve or errors that your glossed over.
    I think getting other players to test your map is the hardest part.
    Like i even struggle with getting one random player for a 1v1 and even then they drop good feedback at the end.
    So yeah i don't know if theres a way to get tester reliably.
    I guess i'm pretty lucky to have made contacts with some good players.

    Learning melee and playing it is of course also a good way to learn to make melee maps, something i started with after the contest started. There are things you simply won't understand until you actually play the game.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  10. mafe

    mafe

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    I dont have the time to get involved in this discussion currently.

    But since my guide is being quoted: I intended it to explicitly be a guide for 1v1 maps. Some of this still applies to 2v2, but not necesssarily all of it.
     
  11. JaleVeliki

    JaleVeliki

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    Vile Reef has no frigates or battleships, only transport ships are purchasable. They can be used to scout a lot of the map if not for transport. They can be used in many ways none of the maps with boats have done so far, especially melee. Units wont die in boats because there isn't a place where deep water is surrounded by 300 range, so the units will 99% survive. Zeppelin units will also die if above deep water. You can defend your boat(s) with anti air. There isnt a whole lot of deep water. There is also a boat-less version for those who deem boats to be overpowered and want to play 1v1 / 2v2 / FFA on it 'properly', but from the Russian tournaments that Vile Reef was played on, boats weren't all that powerful after all and the matches were dictated by the layout.

    That's because nobody experimented to see how boats can be utilized in other ways than just reaching an island (some nice ideas on Thawing Snow) and this is the type of thing Blizzard wants before Reforged. Boats will likely NOT remain the same. Also, what makes you think Blizz will automatically throw top contest maps into ladder or that we decide anything?

    The game is in a constant stage of evolution, especially now that balance changes aren't out of the question as before. Don't live in 2002. It's time to explore. Touch unused wc3 potential for melee.

    This entire discussion is pointless, you are not proving anything to anyone of us here, except lakes of salt.
     
  12. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Well excuse me for actually discussing about the maps and the poll.
    If you don't like dicussing then don't participate.

    The problem with transport ships is that they have 1500 hp. If you have one in combat and load units it's a safe haven for wounded units and it's hard to deal with. Like dodging flamestrikes, blizzard - these spells become almost obsolete because of the boats massive hp. Then again players still won't ships because of clunkiness. The way it loads units is unintuitive, because they won't meet each other halfway, but instead one will stand still. Zeppelins share the same problem, but this is less relevant since it's flying and won't get obstructed by pathing. Also like i said earlier orcs with Ensnare surround will kill all of your units since they have no place to land. Because boats have large collision, awful pathfinding and bad turnspeed it's really easy to do it. Ensnared ships can't unload units. If your surround with a 12+ food army everything dies and it's a game over. So very Orc favoured. I have boats in my map Warcraft Royale, which is supposed to replicate some of the fighting aspect from melee. It has happend there on several occasions. So i'm talking from experience here. I've done several things in that map to "fix" boats, but you can't really fix something that is inherently flawed.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  13. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    Test your map against computers or other players, even if you're shit at melee, you'll always find something to improve or errors that your glossed over.

    that I did, and in the twich video, I was surprised that some things worked better that I would imagine.
    an orc player hijacked with the tauren hero the enemy orc blademaster in a green near base, I would never try that, and it worked.
    and in the game-play those who rush Tier 2 like troll mass win against a clumsy that is unwisely going to Tier 3
    and Tier 2 rush can be counter, and then the tier 3 can overpower against the tier 2, if the tier 2 fails to defeat the enemy early.
    I would never imagine all that by the beta test I did wich was more focus in detect agro and test AOW creeping.
    In my map I only had in mind 2 ways of play, coperative expandings, and solo expandings, but in the twich video much more complex strategies came aboard, like rush tier 3 and not expand, never considered that.
    I was so glad when the user that was rushin tier 3 said it was a good time killing.
    and even red tiles arent good ones, they praised my gray fog because it makes the red less red and less shynny. the mix red-green seems to be very good, but since I wasnt shure, I prefer to use it in low amount in case it fails.

    I think getting other players to test your map is the hardest part.

    yup I didnt want to bother other people with all this,(since many where very busy), well I bothered 1-2 users with my map and did some fixing as example originally you couldnt get L2 with 2 creeps, that I fixed,.

    by the way, you didnt vote in the poll, you did?

    there is a map or maps from another users that you liked in this contest??
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  14. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Maybe, he's more of a miser than Keito :D
     
  15. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    I didn't vote because i'm too lazy to open up or test maps.
    So it would be unfair of me to vote just based on map previews.

    Though I'd probably favor Hillbrads Creek.
    I think it's a bit standard, the other maps are more interesting, but they lack polish so... Henci's map.

    King and Country
    comes to mind. I like the layout, visuals. I haven't played it, but it looks like fights can occur anywhere on the map. It's just the polish stuff should have been fixed like creep aggro. Not too happy about the rock tiles on the hill expansions, it really restricts where you can build in a way that isn't good. There should only have been rock tiles near the ramp to prevent cannon tower spam.

    Vile Reef: Good layout, but you know my stance on ships. The rain adds too much visual clutter i think.

    Underground Oasis: It's obvious this map was never playtested, air blockers near the archways screw up pathing for ground units. This isn't immediately obvious for new mapmakers. You can force the ground units through, but it really screws with pathingfinding if you click the other side. So a simple playtest would have fixed it. I just find it a bit lazy and a bit wierd too given the effort with the terrain and concept - which is pretty solid. When hi2chaco was testing it he was questioning wether you wanted to do this purpose rofl.

    edit: on closer inspect there are more things that drag it down, aggro, waygates, mana fountains..

    The rest of the maps falls into a non-specific category of problems with tilesets: too much red, too much orange, too much blue, too dark, broken drops, too heavy fog, too large maps, creep aggro, wierd creeps, tiles being eyesore, floating doodads, militia rush. I'm pretty quick to dismiss maps on that basis.

    Also i want to like Guardians, but man that map has so many problems. Which i'm not gonna adress them because people have already done so.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  16. W3Sour

    W3Sour

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    I like Guardians, Hills Creek, Consortium, Terrace Field. All have problems though, no map is without flaws here.

    Nice to see Synergy being used as a reference point
     
  17. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    We should just let XanderD judge, he's doing all the work for Hi2chaco lmao.
    He doesn't what to do without anyone telling him whats good or bad with a map.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  18. Heinvers

    Heinvers

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    Status?
     
  19. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    I was going to ask the same, but didnt want to put preasure.

    @mafe

    so everything ok?, how are you and the other judges doing?, do you have an ETA (estimated time of arrive) of the results?
     
  20. JaleVeliki

    JaleVeliki

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    are you guys planning a trip? :D
    chill pill! results/updates will come when ready...
     
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