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Melee Mapping Contest #4 - Poll

Discussion in 'Poll Depository' started by mafe, Apr 26, 2019.

?

Cast your vote up to 5 entries: (READ THE RULES below before voting)

Poll closed May 11, 2019.
  1. Lordaeron Plaza by XanderD

    21.4%
  2. Hillsbrad Creek by Mr.Henci

    50.0%
  3. Overgrown Center by DuckDuckGoose

    7.1%
  4. The Consortium by Keito

    25.0%
  5. Vile Reef by JaleVeliki

    39.3%
  6. Stairs of Destiny by Ragnaros17

    14.3%
  7. King and Country by Meerel

    35.7%
  8. Forgotten Halls by mmtt

    14.3%
  9. Veilswamp by Khaldaiel

    3.6%
  10. Bandit's City by Rockstar356

    21.4%
  11. The Time Gates by Twilight

    14.3%
  12. Terrace Fields by Nudl9

    21.4%
  13. Underground Oasis by Blood Raven

    25.0%
  14. Venture Co. Shipyards by sentrywiz

    3.6%
  15. Westfall Adventure by FranzVader_CZ

    17.9%
  16. Guardians by Arrr

    14.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mafe

    mafe

    Map Reviewer

    Joined:
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    I'm planning to have another streamed session of playtesting this weekend, probably either Friday or Sunday, though I cannot promise anything yet.
    If it happens, we would play some or all (depending on time) of the maps which we did not get to play the last time.
    If someone does not want his/her map to played this way, please send me a message.
     
  2. Khaldaiel

    Khaldaiel

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2018
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    Ok, I FINALLY finished my rating and voting process ^^' It just took me 4 hours :/ ... Therefore, I have a lot to say and I will try to post "constructive" comments about everything I've seen.
    Be aware that :
    - I am not a pro-player so the comments might be of very little interest
    - I am not unbiased and my map is full of all the mistakes I point out in these commentaries
    - I am human, therefore my notation varies in time because I get tired of seeing maps again and again

    If you are still interested, You can read the spoilers below :

    First thing first, I've looked at all the maps in the editors. It took me at least 15 minutes for each map. And I did not make a test for time consumming reasons !

    Second thing, every map has a decent look, and there is no plain/very ugly/empty of doodads map. Therefore my aesthetics points vary only between 20 and 34.

    Third point, most of the well balanced map have a terrible originality score, and most of the very original maps have a lower balance notation. The first point is normal, as making maps like the official ones is more likely to be balanced and less likely to be original, as its uniqueness will lie in small details. The second point is kind of logic too, but it makes me kind of sad as I feel like most of the balanced errors I found these maps could have been avoided with a little bit more... I don't know... experience ?

    Last comment.... why so much unbuidable tiles ?! Don't you like proxy shops ?


    I've voted for Hillsbrad Creek, Terrace Fields, The Consortium, Underground oasis and Vile Reef.
    As I said, I'm sure I haven't rated the first map as hard as the last ones, so don't take every point seriously, just consider the global notation. I would say that if you there is less than 5 points of difference between two maps, they are likely of the same level.

    [​IMG]

    Special comment about Forgotten Halls that I liked very much for its uniqueness and I'm sure that a little rework in the creeping department could make of it a very good melee map.


    I am using a notation system of my own design in which I look for mistakes on different topics. There is 4 different topics :
    -Layout [25 points] (pathing, spawning positions, neutral building choice and positionning)
    -Creeping [25 points] (item drops, creep camp composition, difficulty to creep for each race)
    - Aesthetics [35 points] ( doodads placement, tiles usage, readability of the minimap, recognizability of the different parts of the map)
    - Creativity [15 points] ( specificity of the map, new things brought to the table)

    In every one of these topics, I have listed some mistakes I don't want to see. Each mistake has an importance rated from 1 (this mistake is very minor) to 10 (this mistake makes the map nearly unplayable) and on every map I review, I rate the occurence of the mistake from 0 (thismistake wasn't made) to 10 (this mistake is everywhere !). Then I multiply the importance of the mistake by the occurence rating, which gives a penalty (between 0 and 100)... Then, when I've looked at all the maps, I give the maximum possible points on a topic to the map having the fewest penalty points, and a very bad notation to the map having the most penalty...

    I find to this system 2 pros and 2 cons.
    - It forces me to ask myself all the questions for everymap
    - It allows me to compare different mistakes of the same topic and different map with varying mistake type
    - It takes a lot of time to build and do the notation
    - I can't guarantee that the mistake importance I chose and the rating I give do correspond to the real level of the map as my ratings varies with time and the importance vary between people

    Example of mistakes :
    - The path sizes are too small (importance of 8, topic layout)
    - The creep camps can only be accessed from one side, making it hard to retreat after a creepjack (importance of 6, topic layout)
    - There is no high level item to gain (importance of 5, topic creeping)
    - The mercenaries are the same than the usual lordaeron summer ( importance of 4, topic originality)


    As the first map I reviewed, this one probably has the most inaccurate rating and comments. Sorry. But as comments go, I can say that :
    • Layout (18/25)
    - I'm not sure if all the spawning configurations are equivalent, as the proximity to the red camp won't be a factor in the beginning of the game, whereas the proximity to the mercenary camp can be very usefull.
    • Creeping (18/25)
    - I feel like there is not that much creeps on the map
    - I find it kind of hard for UD to creep as there is only few critters, not much item sniping to be done with the invulnerability/magic immunity
    - goblin shop creeps don't sleep... they will attack even at night... I consider it a problem...
    • Aesthetics (20/35)
    - I advocate for a more liberal use of a varied tileset. But aesthetics is always an affair of taste.
    • Originality (1/15)
    - lordaeron theme, lordaeron creeps, lordaeron mercenary camps, classical squared shape

    As I said previously, I like this map. I like the small distance between bases in one team, I like the new creeps, the hidden base in the middle... But I think there is room for upgrade in the execution of the idea. Specificaly regarding item drops.
    • Layout (18/25)
    - 50 k gold in the central mine is too much... even 20k is a nearly eternal mine in a melee game... 24k is 40 minutes of mining ! I find it kind of absurd on a mine you can fortify so easily....
    - There is not that much buildable tile on the map... No buildings near the mercenary camps, near the labs, the dragon nest, etc... What about the poor nightelves with their AOW positionning ?
    -more laboratories are necessary for the access to the central mine
    • Creeping (3/25)
    - Not that much easy camps on the map
    - Lots of late game camps
    - Lots of AOE and debuffs by the creeps, making it hard to creep for orcs/human especially
    - The distance to the closest camps makes it nearly impossible to militia creep
    - The few buildable tiles and the distance between camp makes it nearly impossible to AOW creep
    - The goldmines do not attack if you build to close to them, which is a very big problem
    - Green camps drops are too weak, orange camps drops are sometimes too strong, red camps drops are insane (tome of power is to be expelled from melee). Look at Terenas Stand. It has some very rewarding early creep camp but it is considered balanced...
    - Nice idea the 1st level buyable item has an item drop... but you must restrict the list... imagine dropping a sacrificial skull... sells for 25 and can be useless to the whole team !
    - Level 6 charged items are bullshit... Level 5 are borderline imba. I don't think they have a place in such a small map.
    • Aesthetics (25/35)
    - Interesting waterfall usage
    - Maybe a more generous use of doodads and tileset could be done
    • Originality (12/15)
    - like the unusual neutral buildings
    - like the unusual tileset
    - like the creeps, even if I wonder why some of them are here (the draenai ?)
    - like the idea of new item drops... needs to be remade though... I think...


    • Layout (14/25)
    -hmmm... 3v3 map on 2v2 contest.... why not... but it makes the spawning configuration of the team not equals (what if the unused starting position is in the middle ?)
    - like the gold distribution in the different mines
    - I feel like there might be a lack of trees
    - The between-bases 10.5k expansions on each sides are dead-ens, which makes them very hard to attack.
    • Creeping (13/25)
    - Fountain camp sleeps, but goblin shop camp does not... that's a problem
    - Aggro distance of the goldmine creeps varies within the camp itself... which is weird
    - not a lot of creeps at all
    - Some camp composition make them too easy to kill for their supposed difficulty (I have doubts about the goblin laboratory camp for example)
    - in general, the item drops are a tad too weak for the camps difficulties
    • Aesthetics (32/35)
    - I find this map to be one of the most beautiful ones
    • Originality (9/15)
    - unsual creeps, tiles, neutral buildings
    - unusual team positionning for 2v2 is good !

    As the map is very good, I'll focus on details
    • Layout (22/25)
    - please less mercenary camp ! That's not mercenaries, that's an invason ! Maybe you could also try putting some other mercenaries (the ones you found the less OP, but that are still different than the usual boring ones !)
    - There is a lot of protected creeps and points of interests... that's kind of a problem.... points of interests should be more contested !
    - Several base walling options with less than the 4 usual buildings (for human i mean)
    • Creeping (22/25)
    - Green Creep camp gives to few of a reward ! level 2 tome (without xp) for a level 9 camp is kind of extreme !
    - No intermediary orange camp (level 10-13) and no level 2 items at all ! What do you have against gloves of haste and sentry wards ?! :D
    • Aesthetics (34/35)
    - I feel like it's the most beautiful map of all the pool! GG !
    • Originality (2/15)
    - "unusual" looking layout
    - please... new item drops, new creeps, no tiles, new doodads, new mercenaries !

    • Layout (20/25)
    - Paths feel a little too narrow
    - Many creep camps are hard to flee if you engage the creeps (lab, red mines, murlocs)
    • Creeping (15/25)
    - some orange camp reward too much (shop), other too little (expansions, labs).
    - the rifts and the very few anti-air creeps make this map a paradise for mass-air fast creeping...
    - no AOW creep ! (except the first easy orange camp)
    - lot of frost armor, frost arrow and regen making the camps hard to creep for small orcs armies...
    - no poison (except red camps), no dispel, looks too good for human i think
    - I know its a 2v2 contest, but what a reward on the starting positions !!!!!
    • Aesthetics (32/35)
    - very good looking map
    - archways and pathblocking doodads are to be avoided : it makes the map harder to read for the palyers... even if I agree than the pathblockers are to be used where they are used to avoid bugs/hero stuck.
    • Originality (1/15)
    - classic layout, classical tiles, classic creeps, classic mercenaries... it really fits in the map pool :/

    • Layout (15/25)
    - problem with the starting positions in one team... The map feels like the players should spawn with the gold mines in between them... but you can spawn with the tavern between you... making it horrible to expand !
    - It is easier to wall on this map, which is a good point as it encourages diversity in strategies.
    • Creeping (15/25)
    - Lots of protected creeps between the players
    - minor potion drops are a good idea... but why just health and mana ? don't you like invulnerability ? maybe a regenerating potion or an antimagic potion could have been added too ! Just two options feels weird, especially when everyone prefer mana potions to health potion !
    - same question for the big mana/ big HP potion. Big invulnerability potions are a factor in the game. I don't feel like they are that broken. They are sometimes sooooo needed...
    - The level 18 goldmine camp drops a permanent 5 (which is a bit too rewarding) and is not fair for the poor mercenary camps dropping perma4 + tome. I don't feel a big difference in difficulty between them... one of them has double AOE and the other 'just' divine shield and lightning shield...
    - the orange wizards defending nothing is far harder than the natural creeps for the same xp count.... except than one gives access to a gold mine !
    - the mercenary and natural or far too easy for my taste. And again, no poison and no dispel (even no spells) on the goldmine makes it supereasy to creep... with militia ! (and AOW, but a bit less)
    - the neutral horses have 100 hp... they are bad corpses for UD because they are harder to kill, they should not replace the other critters (they take place of mundane critters for other spawning positions)... if you use them, put them more in the middle, where everyone can use them without 'early damage'
    -no item sniping at all, very few dispel, very protected positions in the bases... well, orc and ud are sad, elf and hu are reigning supreme.
    • Aesthetics (27/35)
    - there is a human and an elven part of the map, that's a cute little touch that avoids repetition !

    • Originality (5/15)
    - Yes different mercenaries and some different items... that's a good point ! But tiles and creeps are the usual ones :/

    • Layout (11/25)
    - very narrow paths
    - very protected and secluded camps, and so much goblin shops ! One per player is kind of sad I feel... no play around shopcontrol !
    • Creeping (15/25)
    - level 8 or so creep camp dropping 2 level 1 tomes is problematic. Remember Terenas Stand ! level 3 camp drops a level 1 permanent and level 6 a level 2 permanent. That's kind of extreme I know, but level 8 for two tomes is ridiculous I think.
    - one orange camp rewards too much (spiders), the others too little (laboratories ! wolves and troll near the base !)
    - no permanent one = no early camp ?
    - Item sniping is too easy as the trolls have the tendancy to be fragile
    • Aesthetics (20/35)
    - map tiles are a bit too uniform for my taste and doodad usage is too light i feel.
    - avoid the archways, they hid ground units.

    • Originality (4/15)
    - I like the idea/lore behind the map. There are some unusual creeps too. That's a start

    • Layout (18/25)
    - The double expansions are weird. But you've done it in a way that's not that overpowered which is hard to do. First of all, the two mines have the gold of one real mines. Second, you can't double mine. I guess it' slightly NE favored as you can move a tree from one tiny mine to the other, but I really like this treatement of the double mine.
    - I'm worried for the wood capacity of the map... Trees are fines !
    - Impossible to put a building near the labs/mercenary camps, but wisps have their trees... still NE favored :/

    • Creeping (15/25)
    - Some orange/green camps have a weak composition (no spell, uniform attack/Armor type )
    - Drops in general are a little to weak for their camps...
    - No dispel, no AOE, and militia range to creep half of the map (I exagerate a bit), but i feels like you like human as well ;D
    - nearly no AOW creep (as they are so much unbuildable tiles and so few trees)... keepers are sad btw.
    - Very strong main creep in most of the camps... hard to do item hunt... bad for orc and ud :/

    • Aesthetics (20/35)
    - hard to see the red camps over the red tiles :/
    - a little bit to extreme with the doodads
    - borders of the map are funny to see, but of not much use... I'm not even sure if I should count them in the aesthetic notation... They might make the air unit management a pain to watch ... also doodads should be on the map, not out of it...
    • Originality (6/15)
    - New tiles , new creeps ! I love it. Old mercenaries though.

    • Layout (23/25)
    - Possible to wall the base without barrack or altar. Good ! New options :)

    • Creeping (22/25)
    - A speed potion. I like it !
    - Finally, green camps giving adequate rewards !
    - Some orange camps (murlocs) looks lightly rewarded.
    - One of the most balanced droptable I've found so far !
    - The orange dragonkin with frost nova, the fountains creeps and the top red camp are looking hard for their level.
    - Sleeping creeps at the fountains make me sad...
    - not equivalent positionning within a team... on top island you can AOW creep the orange dragonkin, in the bottom you cannot

    • Aesthetics (27/35)
    - Tiles are a bit too uniform. Doodads are a bit too rare for my taste.
    - The minimap is harder to read because of all the waterfalls ^^' but it's kind of ok still. I'm giving hard comments as the map is really good overall.
    • Originality (5/15)
    - Unusual creeps. Fountain. That's already something. Not that usual tiles. Old mercenaries again... new items !
    - Not that usual of a layout either. Good.
    - Question, why health and not mana fountain ? Is really one more broken than the other ?

    • Layout (12/25)
    - Weird surrounds are possible around the taverns... the doodads are too close !
    - Ton of gold in the original mines...
    - Central waygates can be fortified which is a problem
    - Walling off the base is extremely difficult
    - Biggest problem. The map is naturally splitted. No creeps are contested. Everyone can live on its own. I recommand a three part map next time ;)

    • Creeping (10/25)
    - Green camps do not reward enough
    - Orange camps are sometimes too much generous (spiders for example)
    - The murloc camp has a weak composition making it very easy to creep for all the xp it gives... But the item drop is adequate with the difficulty I guess... I feel like removing some of theses murlocs can be a good idea. Without changing anything else.
    - Sadly, the polar and normal fulborg are not equivalent... Making some eastern camp more difficult with frost armor shamans.
    - Mercenary camp drops are way to weak
    - The corner expansions gives far too high of a reward... even if it has manaburn. The camp is so easy you could creep it without a hero and get level 2 + 3 items !!
    - Manafoutain creeps are sleeping... I find it borderline imba.
    - Some very strong item hunt possibilities with fragile creeps having good items... orcs and ud are happy.
    - No big charged level 3 ? Sad. No permanent above level 5... Also kind of sad...
    - Far too much level 2 charged... they can be abused pretty bad in the early game.
    - No critters !? Ud crying.
    - Orcs are laughing : very few spells on the camps, medium armored creeps on all the manafountains, no dispel against the summons...
    - Most of the camps are 'boring' as they just attack you.... spells are fine if they are not overwhelming !

    • Aesthetics (32/35)
    - If theses are just time gates, why is the map mirrored and instead of translated ???
    - Very beautiful doodads and little region, good tiles usage AND ON A NON SYMETRIC MAP !
    - This map is one of the only one where a simple screen can (without minimap) tell you really easily where you are on the map... Top and Bottom look different as well !
    - It's sad though, but the waygates are making the minimap hard to read.
    • Originality (11/15)
    - Like the idea, Like how you've done the a

    • Layout (23/25)
    - Sadly, the map feels a bit empty... But I did not penalise it and it helps not making mistakes so I guess it's all right.
    - finally some space to maneuver around !
    - bases feel too small... the trees are sooo close. It makes it also kind of hard to wall off the base.
    • Creeping (24/25)
    - See the note. That's what I wanna see !
    - Some camps are a bit too strong though. Expansion having slow/innerfire/rage !
    - No very high rewards but who cares... We have the auras and the big potions !
    • Aesthetics (28/35)
    - Map tiles are a bit too uniform
    - You can go harder on the doodads I feel
    • Originality (6/15)
    - Different creeps. That's good. Different tiles and doodads too.
    - Same mercenaries, same items
    - Cool but not revolutionnary. I might have been a little hard on you, but you still got the vote, that's all that matters !

    • Layout (23/25)
    - you can build a farm at the mercanry camps, but no bigger buildings and no wisps... that's really human favored my friend ! ^^'
    • Creeping (20/25)
    - green camps do not reward enough... it's a bit light and very slight... but still...
    - some orange camps reward a tad too much (spiders ?, labs), other a tad too little (expansion !, hydra central camp)
    - red camps do drop very weird items, especially on the starting positions.... but I am not supposed to take them into account anyway;
    - level 5 charged are kind of imba. Level 5 perma is kind of weak on the red fountain camps.
    - The shop camp does not sleep :/ that's a problem. I think. is it ?
    • Aesthetics (32/35)
    - avoid archways they hamper vision.
    • Originality (7/15)
    - original shape, original tiles, original creeps... but still lordaeron mercenaries :/

    • Layout (23/25)
    - No trees at the mercenary camps = no wisp can stay here... problematic.
    - Paths are a tad to small
    - some creep camps are oneway access only... Hard to flee a creepjack.
    - Some very protected camps are reserved to a team. That's to be avoided.
    • Creeping (20/25)
    - he hydra green camp is too strong and gives a small rewards. Not everyone can tank poison with AOW :/
    - slightly to few of a reward for the oranges and red camps, in general.
    - Redcamps with no air attack ? ok they have 2 ensnare, but still !
    - lots of AOE damage in these creep camps
    - no item sniping possible :/
    - some very strong debuffs on a few camps...
    - In general, it's hard to creep for every race... so that's kind of balanced !
    • Aesthetics (26/35)
    - perfectly squared islands are to be avoided. When water and land have the same height, use the brush of the terraining tool to force the island to looks a bit rounder. you should really do this on every point where the land touch the water at same height.
    - Some parts of the map are looking too uniform for me...

    • Originality (7/15)
    - original shape, original tiles, original creeps... but still lordaeron mercenaries :/

    • Layout (20/25)
    - Shop positionning is very weird (exchange it with lab ?)
    - possible to wall off with altar+farms only. good !
    - No way to wall off or defend the expansion !? accessible from all sides... I'm not sure if I like it... too secluded can be problematic but too open is a problem too :/
    • Creeping (15/25)
    - droptable for green camps is hard to follow. For same difficulty, sometimes it's a level 2 item, sometimes it's tomes
    - much better drops for orange camps. Except the troll/golems
    - dropping a random level 5 item of any class is super imba. scroll of GG or scroll of lesser restoration... Cristal ball or potion of divinity ?)
    - same for random level 4 item of any class.
    - some damn good AOW creeping in the corners.
    - lot of possible abuse with the shop creep camp, the cliff and spell/long range units/air units.
    • Aesthetics (28/35)
    - perfectly squared islands are to be avoided. When water and land have the same height, use the brush of the terraining tool to force the island to looks a bit rounder. you should really do this on every point where the land touch the water at same height.
    - Some parts of the map are looking too uniform for me...

    • Originality (1/15)
    - usual tiles, usual creeps, usual items, lordaeron mercenaries... It fits in the map pool :/

    Ok... that's the better part. I really like what you tried to do here. And I don't want you to feel discouraged by what I am going to say. You made some very critical error for melee that you have to avoid. But the good new is that you don't have to scratch your idea in the same time ! The boat idea is not that imbalanced. The creeping is. The layout is too. That's different ! It was a pleasure to review this map, and I think it's a good exercise to point out what you feel is really problematic about a map, as a reviewer. I am trying to be constructive in the advises I give, and I hope it will help you for the next melee contest !
    • Layout (8/25)
    - Random neutral buildings can be very imbalanced. Avoid it at all cost.
    - Direct access to the border of the map (even from the starting positions) is bad. It breaks immersion, or so I was told. Even a short line of trees is good. But directly touching the limit is bad. If you need more space after creating the map, play with the 'borders and camera limits in the 'scenario' menu.
    - possible to wall off with altar+farms only. good !
    - No way to wall off or defend the expansion !? accessible from all sides... I'm not sure if I like it... too secluded can be problematic but too open is a problem too :/
    - paths are too narrow, even for boat to maneuver in.
    • Creeping (0/25)
    - Non systematical drops is a danger. Getting 0-5 items is frustrating. There is already enough rng in the item drop !
    - some drops are clearly not equal. Wardrums are not equivalent to level 3/2 items.
    - beware the campaign items. Some of them are a good idea (greater invis is not too bad), others are really strong (invocation diamond, iron maiden, bash axe)
    - Ok... shredders, towers, boats, neutral units. Some of them are more advisable than others. Towers are very low level units. Ennemy towers give 25 xp. The core of creeping is to get experience. If you gain no xp, there is no interest in creeping. If you want tower creeps, use them rarely with weak towers. They don't give a lot of xp, and cannon towers are therefore not somethng you want to kill. If you want some unusual towers, use the elven towers (except the rock tower, they are just super awesome glorified guard towers)
    - Shredders do an awful lot of damage to be simple level 4 creeps. I think that's a bad idea. Putting them is pair is certainly lethal for fragile heroes and units (like for example mountain giants).
    - Player units can be used as creep, I feel... But not all of them. Player units have tendancy to scale more than creeps. Tier1 and Tier2 units can be good camp units, tier 3 are far too strong for the xp they give.
    - I'm not even sure if sapper explode when they are creeps... anyway, that's also a bad idea.
    - And the central creep camp is noted as level 0... For the strongest camp on the map that's a problem. I'm also not sure if it gives xp... as the editor claims that all these boats are level 0 creeps ...
    - Item dropping on deep water are destroyed. Try to put the creeps over shallow water.
    - Use amphibian creeps or naga units ! They will be far more rewarding than boats that are also mechanical units and therefore insensible to most spells.


    • Aesthetics (20/35)
    - The doodads are varied and not symetric. It implies a lot of work. I think it might need some more though :/
    - ground tiles are a bit too uniform
    • Originality (15/15)
    - new items, new creeps, new mercenaries, new tiles ... BOATS ! I think it could have been more balanced though, even with the boats idea.

    Edit : the second 'Vile Reef' review was for Westfal Adventures, I changed the name of the spoiler.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  3. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    upload_2019-5-2_19-38-31.png

    vile reef is repeated.
     
  4. FranzVader_CZ

    FranzVader_CZ

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    It seems that second one is my Westfall Adventure.
     
  5. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Something like that. It enables mana hungry heroes like Panda, MK and it's pretty OP for UD i believe.
     
  6. foje tit

    foje tit

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    i have experience that

    my Aesopian Waterway turned parkoured from Sunken Ruins tileset to Barrens it was after I load a custom map of mine
     
  7. XanderD

    XanderD

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    Too late for me to say "no".
     
  8. mafe

    mafe

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    hi2chaco looking the map currently on his stream: Twitch
    There also a VOD from a few days ago: Twitch (Actually maybe not, but the title says so)
     
  9. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Clip 1
    Clip 2
    ... i'm so mad.
    I realise it's bad in nature to complain about the judges at this time, but i called it out as soon as the contest was announced.
    Having a judge (Hi2chaco) that doesn't make maps or actively play ladder (with no winrate to show for) is a fucking joke.

    MODERATOR: Post edited. Please conduct yourself in a civilized manner.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2019
  10. mafe

    mafe

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  11. I remember you calling that early on.
    But on the other hand, if he wanted to judge, and was accepted...
    not much we can or could have done ... except not participate.

    He also skipped my map and other maps. I guess he ran out of time...
    Or patience. Or cheetos.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2019
  12. Sxar

    Sxar

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    I will download and play them all this weekend. Also I will participate in the next contest too <3 :)
     
  13. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    gather 4 players to play + caster + observers require good timing, so I would expect if they couldnt do it because they had others things to do,
    like other contest, the final of some cup, whatever, I give thanks for those twich videos, they are a good time filling till the results.
     
  14. mafe

    mafe

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    Once this contest if over (i.e. the results are published), I think we can and should have a discussion about what went wrong or right during the contest. For now I'll just ask everyone to please be respectful.

    And just to be clear: The contest and judges will remain the way they are.
     
  15. Meerel

    Meerel

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    Stairs of Destiny:

    Layout:
    Difficult to say, i think the mainbases are well placed, the double goldmine aswell. The left top corner and bottom right corner are a little bit too cramped for 4 good creepcamps. i dont see much possibility to haras without engaging in a full fight. I dont really understand the middle, the different squares look really similar and pathing is weird because they are all separated with walls. i would easily get lost while playing.
    Playable size could be smaller. i think it shouldnt go over 110.

    Creeps:
    Creeps look fine in total. i have a problem with the double expo creep tho, its a lvl 29 creep with lvl 4 drop. should be a lvl 6 if we follow standard drops, but that would be really strong. maybe just make it a lower lvl creepcamp. as i said in the layout the top left, bottom right have too many creeps in one area, the overall creepmodells are little bit mixed, would like to see only black citadel here.

    Aesthetics:
    Well the reason why i gave it a really bad score is obviously based on the aesthetics. for me it could be a perfectly balanced map, if i cant read the map because the texturing is just confusing, its not a map worth playing. and thats unfortunatly the case here.
    i know the tileset is not easy to use but i think it should always be based on the red/orange earth tile as the main tile, all the other ones should only be used to make this particular one not look boring.
    Maybe take a look at the campaigne maps from the humans in Frozen Throne. I think blizzard really does a tremendous job on all the texturing.
    its hard to really pinpoint the problem, i think good texturing comes with experience.

    anyways, i wouldnt use the lordaeron summer merc camp, it doesnt fit the theme. the hightmap should be smoothed out alot.

    The Time Gates: 4

    Layout:

    i have to say the portals are a nice idea but i think the mapsize is too big to make them work. i see this map dissolve into a creepingfest without any interaction between any player. lets try the same idea on a smaller map without the barrier inbetween or design each half so each team can play together from the getgo like terrace fields, that would help alot.
    also its suffers from narrow path syndrom like other participants.

    Creeps:
    i think the green camps are fine, the medium orange camp is missing, the stronger orange camps drop low lvl items. try to stay close to blizzard standard droping system. there are tutorials on hive.
    i feel like some creeps will attack me when pathing by.

    Aesthetics:
    Aesthetics are solid, the texturing job is good. i like the ashenvale side alot more :D

    Consortium: 4

    Layout:

    the layout is kinda underwhelming, its really just open areas with some doodad blocker inbetween.

    Creeps:
    creeps are fine, item drops are fine. could use some more lvl range in the orange camps aswell as a red spot. the distance between creepspots is kinda big.

    Aesthetics:
    its ok. i dont like the tilesset combination, the dalaran doodads dont fit, the fire pit is over the top.

    Underground Oasis: 5

    Layout:

    this map is gigantic. i like the starting positions and natural expansion and the overall flow is kinda nice. if it would be smaller and little bit more streamlined...

    Creeps:
    the natural creepcamp is too strong, the goblinshop item drop is too low. the hydracamp in the middle split so the item lvl is too low. otherwise its fine overall. maybe the distance is sometimes a bit too long between the camps.

    Aesthetics:
    Again, same with Stairs of Destiny, i know you put alot of work into those shadow doodads but its just not feasible for a competitiv 2v2 ladder map. make it smaller, remove the shadows and work a little on texturing and overall doodad design and it would be a really good map. i like the the bottom right and top left corner. the rocks, bubbles and water fit well together.

    Vile Reef: 2

    Layout:

    Again amazing layout from you, really good use of the goblin shipyard in combination with the natural expansion. could be a little bit smaller.

    Creeps:
    the creeps are totally fine except this one green camp with the hydra. it splits into 2 lvl 3 hydras, so the item drop is too low.

    Aesthetics:
    theme is well executed overall. nothing special but solid. dont like the lordaeron merc camp. the texturing is ok, i wouldnt use so many grass textures in combination. heavy rain should be changed into light rain or turned off.

    Westfall Adv.: 3,5

    Layout:

    i think the layout is ok overall, i like the hills in the corners. the mainbases are kinda far apart, only 1 extra goldmine per player is not enough. some areas are too open and dont provide much value.

    Creeps:
    creeps are really far apart at the mainbases, should be alot closer and have a orange camp around lvl 10-13 closeby. creepplacement is really tight, maybe split them up a little more.

    Aesthetics:
    texturing job is mediocre at best, the creepcamp design is sometimes really good sometimes really boring. the hightmap should be smoothed out alot.
    it still provides a standard blizzard village theme so its ok overall.

    Veilswamp: 4

    Layout:

    Difficult to say, i can see you had alot of fun designing the map. besides that its too big with many huge open areas, the creep distance is also really huge and then really close in the middle.
    i dont think the starting locations are balanced unless its always left side vs right side.

    Creeps:
    i dont understand the resurrection items, besides that the middle has 3 huge creepcamps side by side. the rest is ok.

    Aesthetics:
    same with Stairs or Underground, the green water is just too much. the terrain should be smoothed out

    Shipyard: 6

    this map is obviously not balanced. im not going into details right now, that would be just way too much.
    i appreciate the effort creating the map tho.
     
  16. Ragnaros17

    Ragnaros17

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    good timing thanks!!

    reply


    -i think the mainbases are well placed, the double goldmine aswell.

    thanks
    -The left top corner and bottom right corner are a little bit too cramped for 4 good creepcamps.
    got the point, it may happen
    -i dont see much possibility to haras without engaging in a full fight
    I am not shure if I follow, actually I was suprised by the very early haras of the twich video, where a tauren hero wanted to haras and hijack the blademaster in a green camp. in terms of early pvp it has a lot of options.
    -I dont really understand the middle, the different squares look really similar
    yeah those black - red tilesets , because following the preset tiles of black citadel.
    - Playable size could be smaller. i think it shouldnt go over 110.
    Actually the map size is 7x5 big squares, 7 horizontal, 5 vertical, is a rectangular map, and is more smaller than you think considering that I have like 6 pixel editor on each edge as decoration and avoid land units to see the camara limits, so is very small.
    -Creeps look fine in total.
    thanks
    - i have a problem with the double expo creep tho, its a lvl 29 creep with lvl 4 drop.
    a correction, is a Level 26 creep, is a 6-6-6-4-4 = 18 + 8 = 26.
    - should be a lvl 6 if we follow standard drops,
    a level 5 actually, but in maps with a marketplace, there is some no-written rule of not use level 5 items and above.
    because marketpalce sells items droped by random, if one sells a level 6 and the other a level 3, there is clearly a random imbalance,
    with L4 items, the imbalance is far much safe. also consider that creep is ment to be creeped in coperation, is in the middle of the players and in coperation is very easy to take it down since there are not strong units, 2 level sucubbi 6 with no skills, 2 dark trolls L4 with no skills, and the revenant L6 with chain ligthining but nothing else. Creep in coperation is very easy. if you see the twich video, both teams could creep that in coperation as I planned.
    -bottom right have too many creeps in one area, the overall creepmodells are little bit mixed,
    in big maps like 4v4 or 5v5 that just happens, maps got all clustered. Probably the clustering is an effect that map playable area of this map is actually small.
    if i cant read the map because the texturing is just confusing, its not a map worth playing.
    - I think there are worst bugs, but I understand your idea. I used the brown tile to make some sort of path toward the golmines and stuff. I can imagine that is not easy to follow from the minimap, wich also happens in big maps, minimaps in big maps are all clusters (I have a 5v5 ashenvale and with the minimap I cant tell nothing even if I put a lot of effort to use brown paths and green laterals).
    i know the tileset is not easy to use
    - yup, hard tileset.
    -it should always be based on the red/orange earth tile as the main tile,
    I have a rule for everything, never use something so much, a map all red and all orange, people may hate it, if I add some green tiles or black or green water, it has like some discovery- adventure feeling, I like maps that offers different enviroments in one map, and not all the map the same, all forest, all city, I like water, nature, manmade tiles, diversity so I can fill many tastes. But now we are talking about tastes and is a subjetive matter, there are people that just hates fellwood, or ice maps. My case I dont like cities and the houses.

    in terms of balance I used unbuildable tiles to avoid tower exploits in cliff. And a comment I heard from the youtube user Orange, he likes cliff variation to have variation in scouting. While cliff is nice, is very dangerous, because WC3 is not Starcraft 2, cliff exploits bugs are easy to do.
    I wanted to have some cliff variation in the center, tavern area and green water parts to have some 3D play.
    -Maybe take a look at the campaigne maps from the humans in Frozen Throne. I think blizzard really does a tremendous job on all the texturing.
    interesting sugestion,
    -its hard to really pinpoint the problem, i think good texturing comes with experience.
    my first black citadel map, so I have to agree with your statement.
    anyways, i wouldnt use the lordaeron summer merc camp, it doesnt fit the theme
    - I have to correct you, Lordaeron summer camp is not about theme, is about balance, is the best balanced merc. camp, it has the healer troll needed for balance to orcs.
    the outland merc. camp may unbalance because , early draenei with imolation and early frost arrows of the void walker, I am not going to take risks with a strange merc.camp.

    I think my map not thaat bad (I have done worst, really).

    thanks for your time.

     
    Last edited: May 5, 2019
  17. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    -neutral hostile camp units should start with full mana since heroes enter the realm with full mana.
    -scouting has to be done through the middle because there are mine guardians on the sides which attack workers sent early on. Even so, one has to be careful not to go too near the green camps protecting the entrance to the middle zone.
    -the terrain is rather flat but since it's a cityscape based map...
    -not quite easy to clear the nearest expansions with militia because of 2xSlow and 1xBoulder.
    -for better pathing maybe only the trees on the west and east sides near the tavern should be left.
    -creative points: few camps (or lower strength) make PvP engaging earlier; plain symmetry, I guess.
    -doodads almost right in your starting base block building space. Some players even have unbuildable tiles with that.
    -taverns are too near starting bases; generally they should not be too close even to expansions because reviving heroes and protecting or attacking the closest base becomes easier, sometimes even a game changer.
    -neutral hostile groups should have the lowest camp range except for those guarding mines.
    -it's true the satyr mine guards are quite strong (2xMana Burn+Animate Dead+Raise Dead+Curse) and that the mine doesn't have that much gold but I guess the loot might be rewarding enough (a tome+Inferno Stone+Runed Braces for example).
    -allied players are too near each other plus the tavern in the vicinity make for more defensive games especially if towers are built in between the bases or in key places by two players at a time. Also, this map cannot be played 1v1 unless triggers are used for enemy players not to start near each other.
    -Disease Cloud (plague treants) only affects living races; undead players will not be affected.
    -maybe place the tavern instead of the fountain, the dragon roost instead of the laboratory and have a mana fountain instead of each tavern. Or place the fountain instead of the roost and have laboratories instead of the taverns but placed a bit to the south and surrounded by doodads/trees.
    -the highground mine (center north) has too much gold and it's not hard to protect with some towers especially if both players in a group invest in that defense. However, there is enough room to land with artillery if towers aren't getting in the way. Of course, this would not be a problem for Steam Tanks.
    -creative points: less used tileset; fountain of mana; somewhat properly protected dragon roost (tenth level dragons will be useful in turning the tides of war in such maps where allies are near each other); mine reachable only by zeppelin.
    -militia is pretty viable for a mini 2v1 rush.
    -expansions are pretty easy to defend with towers since there's only one way leading to them and the main building isn't exposed.
    -you could have used more tree variation in the all green zone too towards the transition line (map middle diagonal).
    -the problem with trees near taverns is that night elves will have the advantage of gathering resources while waiting for their heroes to be revived instantly. The other races either have to invest some resources to build a Farm/Burrow nearby or leave a worker there which occupies 1 food slot and does nothing productive.
    -creative points: symmetry with varied map halves tiles; various seasons trees.
    -it was saved with latest melee patch or something as it doesn't show melee status ingame.
    -mercenary camp guards might commit aggression towards scouting units as they are quite in the way. Surrounding them with a doodad/tree U also moving them a bit backward would help.
    -creative points: symmetry with somewhat credible terrain.
    -for realism it's neat to have multiple types of trees, however for melee it's a bit confusing. But if it's the same tree with various skins like summer, fall and/or winter then it's OK. Generally speaking, Canopy Trees have weird/smaller pathing zones.
    -militia don't reach the enemy. Some players might not be happy about that. For me, that means less to no cheap rush tactics (imagine attacking with militia and then starting building towers there).
    -the red merc camp is quite controversial with Purge+Slow and then a strong unit capable of not only casting Bloodlust but also using it with good effect.
    -you could make the little gardens between the elven homes have some flower/look like gardens or something. Now they are like those long patches of grassland seen around British universities. Alright, some of them, in some parts of the map have gardens.
    -all expansions are easy to defend with towers as there is only one way in and the main building is not exposed.
    -the north and south players have narrower paths leading to their base and they can defend better than the other two players in the west and east.
    -since the corners of the map aren't used, and will probably not be seen, they could harbour a mine or a camp for later use/play.
    -Riderless Horses have 100 HP and could be used by Dark Rangers or Banshess for scouting as they also have Fast movement speed. Pack Horses too.
    -creative points: terrain aspect.
    -ingame the map doesn't have the melee circle around the player number. Maybe, it was saved with latest melee patch or something instead of default melee.
    -build space is kind of cluttered unless you get outside the tree range and expose your constructions.
    -paths are too narrow and labyrinth like. Note that this is a 2v2 map not a 1v1 one. A player could easily get caught between two enemies.
    -two tomes on one lower camp might be too much. Generally, lower strength camps shouldn't drop more than one item.
    -you can hire laboratory units behind the back of the guards and even Reveal during daytime.
    -creative points: atypical terrain layout.
    -some parts of the terrain are too steep for melee, units going up and down making clicking annoying if they have movement speed bonus.
    -maybe the twin mines should be better protected by neutral hostiles. Would be crazy for an undead player to get too mines at a time for an early boost.
    -creative points: less used tileset; campaign-like vibe terrain.
    -a bit more gold for a better protected mine?
    -if you could make those waterfalls more transparent to fit in with the water.
    -creative points: terrain.
    -I like it how you compensated for mostly Chaos Attack Type Outland units with those from other tilesets.
    -no red camps in 2v2? Oh well, quick match then.
    -creative points: not too often used tileset and good tileset mix; obviously the already mentioned creep mix.
    -it's recommended to have proper unbuildable tiles around Way Gates so towers won't be built there.
    -the blue Way Gate on the eastern side does not lead you to the blue one on the other side but to the red one. Actually, you better check all the gates since more have wrong destinations. The teal one in the east leads to the purple on the west and this (latter) one leads to itself.
    -the terrain layout is a bit confusing as it's not quite symmetrical but tries to be in what creep camps are concerned.
    -some camps like the spiders nearest to starting locations may attack scouting units. Make sure near main paths are under a sort of U shaped doodad/tree formation and tucked in.
    -creative points: tileset mix; way gates.
    -some shadows are weird/too large like coming from nothing or something that cannot be seen.
    -the vision is too dark. For campaigns, this would be fine. Not sure how well this will play in ladder.
    -creeps should start with full mana as heroes and units come out with full mana.
    -clicking behind an archway makes the unit circle around instead of going under/through the arch.
    -militia expire quite early, around the map's center.
    -the waterfalls are too dense being in strange contrast with the water.
    -some doodads are floating in midair, those near ramps and cliffs like rocks.
    -creative points: terrain, way gates, fountains.
    -the filename doesn't have the player number in brackets.
    -taverns shouldn't be too close to bases to avoid fast reviving and defense/attack.
    -from the looks of the minimap starting positions, the players down south have an extra gold mine between/closer to them. They also can reach the middle faster without needing to destroy a gate.
    -Furion, Misha and Medivh clones. Just don't let the Dark Ranger and Banshees take control of them (except Furion, he's a hero). Faerie Fire can be cast on them for vision.
    -too many runes of rebirth. Looks like every camp has one.
    -the Satyr Soulstealer (mercenary) is very controversial especially if night elves with Demon Hunters hire them.
    -avoid placing neutral buildings near mines as they interfere with constructing a main building.
    -it's forced to have that dimensional gate there so near a mercenary camp and those demons in between the two buildings.
    -runes of the watcher should be used lightly since they are invulnerable, invisible and last forever. There should be less spots on the map for them.
    -creative points: runes of rebirth; gates; fountain; runes of the watcher.
    -the filename hasn't got the player number in brackets before the map title.
    -neutral hostile units should start with full mana like heroes and player units are trained with.
    -well, neutral buildings and units which players can have create confusion.
    -trees are too far from the main building in starting bases.
    -there are spaces between trees. One problem is less trees, another might be small units getting through and spying or attacking workers. Also, this way, it's easier for Flame Strike, Force of Nature, Earthquake and artillery units, maybe even ancients to get through toward the enemy.
    -there's only one way leading to the main bases. You can lock yourself in with towers.
    -some ramps are glitched.
    -there are too many units like ships, towers in the way. On top of that you need a ship to get to the enemy or cut through multiple tree lines. So, this map has nulled early game. It has more a campaign feel. Because there are neutral hostile ships around, you are pretty much forced to train air units.
    -even so, because shipyards are also guarded by towers, water should basically be avoided till mid-game.
    -generally, neutral hostile units shouldn't be those which the player can hire/train. Maybe, naga or campaign units instead.
    -you cannot construct main buildings at the mines in the center. There isn't enough room without cutting some trees.
    -what's with the random items on the ground like Phat Lewt and Blood Keys?
    -ah, it looks like you can even buy warships but to get to them it'll take too much time. Also, these ships don't require food slots. They are not yet approved in regular melee. So, I don't know why you went so far when the contest was pretty clear on what you were required to do.
    -the water four leaf clover on the minimap reminds of a BlizzEnt map.
    -creative points: ships, islands, atypical neutral hostile units and buildings.
    -the layout reminds of a BlizzEnt map.
    -ships don't have that much other than to protect units and create annoying in-out tactics for ranged units to benefit from. Units coming out of their destruction don't die or anything if they're not on deep water and even then, the ship has to be at least 300 range from shallow water for the units to sink. They can be used to shorten some paths but that's pretty much optional at this point since the layout is quite permissive. They would have had more use if you could've at least circle around the map to attack enemies from behind or something. Well, you could do that to expansions but in a manner that is frustrating for the attacked.
    -so many merchants, Blademasters shopping galore.
    -who left the steps to the murlocs and revenant, a defeated or running demon because revenant don't have feet and murlocs... well...
    -creative points: ships.
    -avoid sharp/peak-like terrain parts; they create issues with units going up and down them that make battling and selection annoying. They also look unnatural.
    -neutral hostile units should start with full mana as heroes and trained/hired units.
    -creative points: terrain.
    -ingame it does not have the melee icon where the player number is. Probably, it was saved with latest melee patch instead of default melee or something.
    -a 6 player map is not technically 2v2. Besides, Warcraft III doesn't know how to adequately place enemy and allied players together so if you play this 2v2, chances are that an enemy will start nearby. You can fix that with triggers but that would kill the melee status, sadly.
    -neutral camps should start with full mana as your units do after being trained. If they don't have full mana, it's only easier for Blademasters to solo these camps.
    -expansions are too near the starting bases. Human players will be so happy (militia), even undead (ghouls), heck night elves too (ancients). These mines should be properly protected.
    -good thinking, creeps with mana burn near Fountains of Mana.
    -I like this map, you could even convert it to 2v2 or add such a version to its thread, of course not for the contest, sadly. The north and south mines could be neutral and the expansions on their sides could be some neutral buildings or just neutral camps. Something like that.
    -creative points: terrain, fountains of mana.

    After some thought I decided to choose in no particular order: Westfall Adventure, Terrace Fields, King and Country, The Consortium and Hillsbrad Creek.
     
  18. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Editing things in the object editor was against the 2v2 map submission rules.
    A lot of things would have been better if we could modify and break the blizzard melee standards really.
    It was the only critique that i recieved from multiple play tests so i've known about, but was unable to fix it because rules.

    But since they have taken the entries at the start of the contest i figured i could fix it now and override the melee map standards.
    The new waterfall model is perfect because it has the same hue and moves slower.
    And it also means i can lower the minimum doodad height for wheat and spam more of them.
    Which is better for immersion.


    New
    [​IMG]

    Old:
    [​IMG]
     
  19. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Yeah, better indeed.
     
  20. Arrr

    Arrr

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    @deepstrasz
    a clarification, since it's not the first time it's been brought up -
    The teams should always spawn top vs bottom, with one player per team occupying the middle position.
    You can check ally priorities under scenario.


    Regarding the starting mana on creeps, it is debatable. Creeps starting with full mana such as purge/dispel ones can slow down creeping reliant on summons for example.
    As for my map, apart from the more common purge ones I already mentioned, I made some stupid creep decisions, and have a chain lightning creep and a lv5summoning one. These starting with full mana would make them even more punishing to creep at a certain early mid timing, when they'd be able to cast their spells twice or more.
     
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