Melee Mapping Contest #3 - 4 vs 4

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Day ago i made list of rules for melee maps, because there was a lot of confusion on what you can do. And after received feedback i improved my list and made clear difference between what is disallowed and what is just not good idea.

If you have any suggestions for additions or improvements let me know and i can update list.

List of rules for melee maps (breaking some of this rules won't set your map to custom).
- No Object editor
- No Trigger editor
- No Sound editor
- No AI editor
- No Object editor
- No Import Manager
- No change to Gameplay Constants
- No change to Game Interface
- No campaign units, Special units or Heroes placed on map
- No blight placed with terrain editor
- Map properties - options - "Hide minimap in preview screens" and "Masked areas are partially visible" not allowed and "Use terrain fog" not recommended.
- No changes to loading screen
- No "Fixed starting locations" and no changes in general to players (only amount of them)
- Changes to Scenario properties - "Forces", "Techtree", "Abilities" and "Upgrades" not allowed. "Ally priorities" are allowed
- No placed player units (buildings or heroes) only starting locations
- Each player needs 1 gold mine next to starting location (1 gold mine not 2)
- There should be trees nearby starting locations of players
- Some space around starting locations for buildings so players can build stuff
- Place orange camps on player starting locations (they will be removed automatically if is player slot is not empty)
- Fill out "Map Description"

Stuff that is allowed, but someone might ask:
- Modifying tilesets is allowed
- Random Groups are allowed
- Item Tables allowed
- Regions allowed (for way points Edit: it turned out that they are called Way Gates)
- Changes to gold amount in gold mines is alowed (if they are done properly no some random numbers, for example: red camps can have little more gold than orange)

Stuff that is allowed but makes it hard for you be taken seriously:
- Neutral passive player can use only Neutral passive units and Hostile passive player can use only Hostile passive units
- No items placed on map only from killing Neutral Hostile
- Neutral passive can't drop items on death
- At least 1 more gold mine per player for expansions (recommended more) and they must be guarded by orange camp (red camps can be used next to gold mines but not for
main and natural expansion.
- if you put loot items on banshees, if the banshee does possession, the loot is lost so not good idea
- No gaps between trees, small units can hide or even walk and pass a forest.

Stuff that can make your map better if you do it, but not required:
- At least 1 or 2 tavern should be on map (you can put more)
- There should be critters on map (for undead they like critters)
- Dont place patching blockers outside of map they have no effect outside of map

Stuff not worth doing or made useless by previous rules:
- Campaign editor obviously
- Cameras are uselles in melee maps

There you go, Enjoy
 
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I've done so, but I hadn't seen anyone mention anything about this. OK. Then I scrap the idea. Thanks.

Then what about passive buildings?

I'm just trying to make sure that I don't violate any rules.

Thanks again.

-ask all you need. I always recomend the tutorials, reviews, see others maps,look gameplays in youtube., because is the best way to learn, even learn the mistakes of others.


I am just trying to cover some base rulles so every one will be on same page, if someone reads my and your post they will have pretty good idea of what to do.

You Can change gold amount in mines? I have never nocited that, how offten it is used in blizzard maps?

We should write Basic rules anyway so there wont be pages of questions and confused people unsure of what they can do.

1) the list is very good indeed, but it can`t cover everything that means balance, is just imposible. thats why there are tutorials that are long wall of text explaining things
and even the tutorial wont cover all, there is something called self experience wich is gained by making mistakes (I screw it in an olympic way with bases with 3 ways and no proper walling option) or reading others mistakes.
In the frontpage there are links to those tutorials.

@mmtt

Download Swamped Temple from Anomines, wich is now a Blizzard map (I just download it from this site), first expanding 12500, the second and contested 14000.

goldmines can have from 10000 to 16000. those are somehow safe numbers.
2500 is few and 50000 is a lot.

What? Why not? A matter of fact level 6 aren't even that powerful. A Mask of Death and a Crown of Kings are nice to possess but level 6 is still something normal to have.

Also, if we put a Marketplace(s) and someone kills a monster that drops ANY level item, the Marketplace will start announcing same level of items for sale.

It's always been easier to actually buy the item from the Marketplace, once someone had killed a certain creep camp, rather than risking to take a large army to defeat the large creep camp, and in the meanwhile the enemy attacks my base (not saying I'm a coward or something but sometimes this is a strategy for the moment).

*******

EDIT: Or did you mean that the items must drop respectively to the creep level?

If that's so, then it's more than obvious that need to be followed :D

my mistake for not writting properly. when I said a creep level 8 (usually talking creep is the hole creep, unit is a unit that belongs to the creep, there is a concept called creeping route, or AOW creeping, ), I was saying a green creep wich the sum of all levels is 8, so a green creep looting a permanent or charged level 6 is bad for balance, with that loot you can kill an enemy fast.
I mean the first creep you kill with the hero and two units.
The formula I wrote is pretty much the safe option (also it is in the tutorial)

Everything you posted it just guidelines, not rules though. A melee map can break all those guidelines and still be a melee map. It will probably be a bad melee map, but still a melee map. I was suggesting the literal requirements. The "must haves", not the"good to haves".

yes of course were just balance guide not "rules that change the melee category"
but I was talking/ debating/ quoting mmtt wich a few statments from him where statements werent rules but guides for balance (also I responded when I saw that goldmine gold can´t be changed):

- At least 1 more gold mine per player for expansions (recommended more) and they must be guarded by orange camp (red camps can be used next to gold mines but not for main and natural expansion. (there are maps with no expansion options and 30.000 gold, not recommended)
- There should be critters on map (for undead they like critters) (thats for the rod of necromancy creeping, high recommended but not a rule)
- At least 1 tavern must be on map (I recomend at least 2 or more) (all ROC maps didnt have tavern in the first place, still high recommended, not a rule)
- Place orange camps on player starting locations (they will be removed automatically if is player slot is not empty) (or red)
(I think I saw a map with unguarded goldmines players in islands or goldmines not defended walled by wood reached with saw machines, but not recommended at all).


my overall apology if I created confusion

 
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mafe

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I think this is getting somewhat out of control. This thread should be to discuss the contests itself. I understand that the question of "what is a melee map?" is of course important in the process, but I think it should be fairly clear by now.
So while I think that this discussion has its point, but is not the main topic, maybe we could at least put it in spoilers.
 
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I think this is getting somewhat out of control. This thread should be to discuss the contests itself. I understand that the question of "what is a melee map?" is of course important in the process, but I think it should be fairly clear by now.
So while I think that this discussion has its point, but is not the main topic, maybe we could at least put it in spoilers.

Yes i think we have that covered at this point. But a lot of people didn't started yet, or are at beginning of work and there is not that much to talk about jet. But so far those few posted WIPs look pretty good. I think i did my map little too quickly, when i started doing it i didnt realize how much time i have, i really should read month too not only day.
 
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I think people lack common sense to what melee means. Maybe, they only played the campaign mode?

I have this feeling too. Like what we are evem talking about here. Anybody who played at least one melee in their lives knows what melee means.

It all snowbaled out of few questions just because there are no specific rules also It was maybe unclear for some people if it Has to be strict melee or melee like.

"if it Has to be strict melee or melee like"

theres not such thing as "strict melee or melee like"

there is unbalanced melee (unbalanced, and no-playable for competitions, or it can be played for fun, with friends and all ok for fun)

and there is competitive melee (balanced, aiming for fair competion, 4 races balanced).

now if take your map and add tons of triggers, player units, already builded base, add custom units, is an altered melee.There is an altered melee category here with tons of things.

the first 2 melee contest were 1vs1 competitive melee contest.
Now the third melee contest is a competitive 4v4 and since the objetive is that from 20 maps, 1 or 2 maybe, with luck and if Elune wish it, maybe a Hiveworkshop map can reach Blizzard Ladder before Reforged launch, Balance is the key


Most of the users in the "melee comunity" played melee or designed a 1vs1 melee map.

If someone never did a melee map before (not even a 1vs1 in 96x64 in 2-5 days) or played melee, start with a 4v4 is like a huge challange.
Still if a newby user reads the tutorials, search and study others melee maps, the reviews, the mistakes, see youtube plays and reviews.
It can get all the knoledge he/she will need in no time. Actually melee theory is not that hard, still is easy to make mistakes.

 
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sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

As a fellow modder I'd say that even though I find melee maps boring to play,
making them is entirely different story. That's why I personally asked if we can do variations.

And I assume other people are bored playing the same old "balanced" melee maps and would
rather spice it up.

@Ragnaros17 - I had no idea this was secretly a "make Blizzard proud" map. Which is great,
but it would take someone who has overplayed melee to the extent he/she understands all
the quirks that make melee fun. And not all of us are that focused on perfection,
I personally I'm doing it for fun and my map will in no way be balanced like a melee map
"should?". But it will be a fun 4v4 melee map. Isn't that good enough?

Here are my WIPS
 

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Level 27
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As a fellow modder I'd say that even though I find melee maps boring to play,
making them is entirely different story. That's why I personally asked if we can do variations.

"And I assume other people are bored playing the same old "balanced" melee maps and would
rather spice it up."

@Ragnaros17 - I had no idea this was secretly a "make Blizzard proud" map. Which is great,
but it would take someone who has overplayed melee to the extent he/she understands all
the quirks that make melee fun. And not all of us are that focused on perfection,
I personally I'm doing it for fun and my map will in no way be balanced like a melee map
"should?". But it will be a fun 4v4 melee map. Isn't that good enough?

Here are my WIPS

And I assume other people are bored playing the same old "balanced" melee maps and would
rather spice it up.

Actually the "old melee maps " where very very unbalanced. Competitive melee theory started when users started to play the game for serius contest. Actually few maps are used for contest (and tons of fun unbalanced maps had been made), since players can veto a map. NE can veto a map if doesn´t have AOW creeping routes, Undead can veto if doesn´t have critters for the rod of necromancy creeping, and tons of others stuff.

I had no idea this was secretly a "make Blizzard proud"

It was no secretly, there was a pre-contest discusion in the arena forum that start like in the 7 november before launch.
There the rules were discussed, and the category 4v4 was voted,


Next Melee Mapping Contest: Pre-Contest discussion
3rd Melee contest poll question

"And not all of us are that focused on perfection,"

If you see my maps, you will see I was more focused in terraining than in balance.
Still to get approved, I had to consider balance, soner or later balance forms part of a mapper.

even if an user doesn´t aim for perfection for Blizzard or ladder play, put effort to try to win a badge may be another good reason...
(reach Blizzard is probably the dream that any melee mapper that did 1-2 melee maps or more).

I personally I'm doing it for fun and my map will in no way be balanced like a melee map"

Is a pity that you are putting a lot of effort but your balance score may be low if you don´t consider balance.


"Balance Is the map balanced for both teams? Are the positions and distance between points of interest fair? Does the map allow the 4 races to be balanced? Consider balance when implementing the pathing, resources, creep camps, and item drops. 50/100"

Balance has 50 points in this contest, thats why I am sugesting balance balance and balance. (in the last 2 melee contest, balance also has 50 points).

But it will be a fun 4v4 melee map. Isn't that good enough?

Thats will depend in the score you are aiming to gain. If you don´t consider balance, not even basic guides, your score may be very low and your map may be far behind from the others maps. You will be happy in putting a lot of effort just to get a low result? I just trying to convince you that your map will worth more if you consider certain guides for balance.
(I tell you this because I hit low score in the last contest, and I considered balance, and studied it a lot, screw it some basic points like base layout, the first expanding, goblin shops and teleport staffs, the feeling of being fall behind is not very nice.)

"Here are my WIPS"

If you want a sugestion, is more easy to put neutral buildings and starting positions first and terrain later.
Put the neutrals first and terrain later is good trick to not make mistakes in simetry or space.
By looking red player base I am wondering if 8 players can fit??

Do what makes you happy, but is a common thing here that experience users want to help those who doesn´t have that much experience (share the knoledge, make the melee comunity of the Hiveworkshop more strong). If you ask feedback probably some people will try to give you hints to improve your balance.

good luck

 
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Level 9
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After reading more texts and watching some videos and tinkering more thoroughly, I ended up nuking my map :( And I don't have the nerve or spare time to start over.

You can cross my name off. But it was an eye-opening experience. And thank you for your feeback.

The only thing that got me into this contest was this qoute: "Does the map bring something new or creative to the table?" But any new thing I had in my mind was useless.

The rules were so strict, and after investigating the "balancing" aspect further, I get it now why. It has to be this way. And I totally agree with it. Good luck all the contestants.

Hope to see one of these maps in Reforged :)
 
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After reading more texts and watching some videos and tinkering more thoroughly, I ended up nuking my map :( And I don't have the nerve or spare time to start over.

You can cross my name off. But it was an eye-opening experience. And thank you for your feeback.

The only thing that got me into this contest was this qoute: "Does the map bring something new or creative to the table?" But any new thing I had in my mind was useless.

The rules were so strict, and after investigating the "balancing" aspect further, I get it now why. It has to be this way. And I totally agree with it. Good luck all the contestants.

Hope to see one of these maps in Reforged :)

A sugestion, is to soon to drop (usually people drops 1-3 days after contest is going to end), there still 1 month time. Think about it.

Balance is not that hard once you have read about it (in the 2nd melee contest was that I read to know balance, until then I just mapped for fun and terraining). But is true that is better to read balance before mapping blindly.

Balance in 4v4 is more easy, since teams must be balanced, you probably read 1vs1 balance wich is as you said very strict.

You don´t need to start over, By mirrowing terrain and wood you can maybe fix somethings and then copy paste.

About creativity. The creativity is half enviroment, half balance.
As example Ascrelle is doing a boat map, I have very small map (because I want very reduced walking distances above all)

Zeppelings and Zappers, and waygates have a lot of potential.

@Loner-Magixxar thats a sad new to hear. Are you sure abuot it? You map looks promising from the minimap screens that you have posted previouslly. Perhaps if you send me a map file, I can give you enought feedback for improving your map. Consider it, there is still a time, the contest is far from over and you might change your opinion by then.

you can do a pastebin, put it here, and as @Mr.Henci said we can give you feedback to improve.

Another sugestion: mapping saturates (a lot) take 1 day or 2 of pause helps a lot.
 
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mafe

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Great news: The wc3 gym discord will do a 4v4 event, inviting people to play 4v4s specificially because of our contest! If you have a playable WIP, you can meet there today at 9 pm CET ( about 5 hours from this post) and hopefully have some people playtest it.
Even if you dont have time, you can just drop your map in the discord there (ask cepheid to pin it in the channel) , so that some players can try it out and ideally give you some feedback.
I will be there definitely.

Link to wc3 gym: Discord - Free voice and text chat for gamers
 
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Great news: The wc3 gym discord will do a 4v4 event, inviting people to play 4v4s specificially because of our contest! If you have a playable WIP, you can meet there today at 9 pm CET ( about 5 hours from this post) and hopefully have some people playtest it.
Even if you dont have time, you can just drop your map in the discord there (ask cepheid to pin it in the channel) , so that some players can try it out and ideally give you some feedback.
I will be there definitely.

Link to wc3 gym: Discord - Free voice and text chat for gamers

they will acept wips with all terrain flat (and incomplete), but with the neutrals buildings, wood , creeps and loot ready to play test??

I think I can do it, my wip is pretty much in that state. Just some wood here and there and it can be played.
 
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mafe

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they will acept wips with all terrain flat (and incomplete), but with the neutrals buildings, wood , creeps and loot ready to play test??

I think I can do it, my wip is pretty much in that state. Just some wood here and there and it can be played.
Sure they will. It is very different community from here, they care about gameplay first and foremost usually. I played one test game there: Half of my map had only trees as doodads and just 2-3 different tiles. One guy said "nice athmosphere" nevertheless, and except for that comment they only talked about which creeps they thought were good or bad.
 
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Sure they will. It is very different cumminity from here, they care about gameplay first and foremost usually. I played one test game there: Half of my map had only trees as doodads and just 2-3 different tiles. One guy said "nice athmosphere" nevertheless, and except for that comment they only talked about which creeps they thought were good or bad.
I will try to put my map there, i made there account and now i just need to figure out how it works.
 
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I have a problem with my map :(... It looks playable to me (all the creeps, objects, units, terrains are here)... but there is a huge problem I don't know how to solve... the teams do not start at the correct starting positions... there should be one team on the left-hand side and one on the right-hand side... but everytime I make a test, every team start with three players on one side and the other player on the other side:mad:... Is there a quick way to fix this so that the map could be tested tonight ??o_O

Anyway, I've added the map file to this message...

EDIT :
ok, I have a playable map I think, thank you for the tip @mmtt , it seems to work well :)
I've joined the updated map to the message. I won't be able to join unfortunately, but if someone want to try and has some feedback, it will be a pleasure to hear it !
 

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Level 5
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I have a problem with my map :(... It looks playable to me (all the creeps, objects, units, terrains are here)... but there is a huge problem I don't know how to solve... the teams do not start at the correct starting positions... there should be one team on the left-hand side and one on the right-hand side... but everytime I make a test, every team start with three players on one side and the other player on the other side:mad:... Is there a quick way to fix this so that the map could be tested tonight ??o_O

Anyway, I've added the map file to this message...
"Scenario - Ally Priorities" you can do it there
 
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Thank you for your warm comments.
OK I give it another go. But I need to take a small break for now.

Thanks again

There is plenty of time.

Mapping really saturates, specially long and large maps.

I have a problem with my map :(... It looks playable to me (all the creeps, objects, units, terrains are here)... but there is a huge problem I don't know how to solve... the teams do not start at the correct starting positions... there should be one team on the left-hand side and one on the right-hand side... but everytime I make a test, every team start with three players on one side and the other player on the other side:mad:... Is there a quick way to fix this so that the map could be tested tonight ??o_O

Anyway, I've added the map file to this message...

you go to wc3, custom game when you select, there is advanced option that says teams together or something like that, The option is inside the game (near to start with a random hero).
There is nothing to fix, players must set that option.
upload_2018-12-14_15-41-16.png



Sure they will. It is very different community from here, they care about gameplay first and foremost usually. I played one test game there: Half of my map had only trees as doodads and just 2-3 different tiles. One guy said "nice athmosphere" nevertheless, and except for that comment they only talked about which creeps they thought were good or bad.


@mafe, can you throw us a cable, once we joined Discord (that is like a maze), were we should post,?? a screen will help...

the gym got it, thannks!!


https://www.hiveworkshop.com/attachments/8-frostfloe-deep-hw-wip-w3x.311673/
 
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sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz





And I assume other people are bored playing the same old "balanced" melee maps and would
rather spice it up.

Actually the "old melee maps " where very very unbalanced. Competitive melee theory started when users started to play the game for serius contest. Actually few maps are used for contest (and tons of fun unbalanced maps had been made), since players can veto a map. NE can veto a map if doesn´t have AOW creeping routes, Undead can veto if doesn´t have critters for the rod of necromancy creeping, and tons of others stuff.

I had no idea this was secretly a "make Blizzard proud"

It was no secretly, there was a pre-contest discusion in the arena forum that start like in the 7 november before launch.
There the rules were discussed, and the category 4v4 was voted,


Next Melee Mapping Contest: Pre-Contest discussion
3rd Melee contest poll question

"And not all of us are that focused on perfection,"

If you see my maps, you will see I was more focused in terraining than in balance.
Still to get approved, I had to consider balance, soner or later balance forms part of a mapper.

even if an user doesn´t aim for perfection for Blizzard or ladder play, put effort to try to win a badge may be another good reason...
(reach Blizzard is probably the dream that any melee mapper that did 1-2 melee maps or more).

I personally I'm doing it for fun and my map will in no way be balanced like a melee map"

Is a pity that you are putting a lot of effort but your balance score may be low if you don´t consider balance.


"Balance Is the map balanced for both teams? Are the positions and distance between points of interest fair? Does the map allow the 4 races to be balanced? Consider balance when implementing the pathing, resources, creep camps, and item drops. 50/100"

Balance has 50 points in this contest, thats why I am sugesting balance balance and balance. (in the last 2 melee contest, balance also has 50 points).

But it will be a fun 4v4 melee map. Isn't that good enough?

Thats will depend in the score you are aiming to gain. If you don´t consider balance, not even basic guides, your score may be very low and your map may be far behind from the others maps. You will be happy in putting a lot of effort just to get a low result? I just trying to convince you that your map will worth more if you consider certain guides for balance.
(I tell you this because I hit low score in the last contest, and I considered balance, and studied it a lot, screw it some basic points like base layout, the first expanding, goblin shops and teleport staffs, the feeling of being fall behind is not very nice.)

"Here are my WIPS"

If you want a sugestion, is more easy to put neutral buildings and starting positions first and terrain later.
Put the neutrals first and terrain later is good trick to not make mistakes in simetry or space.
By looking red player base I am wondering if 8 players can fit??

Do what makes you happy, but is a common thing here that experience users want to help those who doesn´t have that much experience (share the knoledge, make the melee comunity of the Hiveworkshop more strong). If you ask feedback probably some people will try to give you hints to improve your balance.

good luck


Of course your map being featured by Blizzard is every mapper's dream.
Probably. Idk, it depends on you and why you wanna make maps.
I personally like being famous for my work, but don't feel like making changes that others suggest.
Feedback is one thing, but changing on a whim of others stinks like poo to me as a mapper.

I'm not disregarding your opinion on balance.

Of course I'm aiming for balance. Making unfair maps and posting them is just bad taste IMO.
I have a couple under my belt, everyone has that's the point of learning.

Anyway my idea for this contest was to make a melee map, but make it in a different way...
Instead of players expanding and conquering neutral camps by a constant progression of risk - reward,
why not bring it to them? So with that logic in mind:

1. Neutral buildings are highly valuable. Therefor, access to them will come at a cost.
That's the choice I wanna leave the player with playing my map. You'd either focus on
expansion or gaining fast XP for their heroes.

2. The start game will feel like a 2v2 rather than 4v4. I will separate 4 players on each side of the map
and in the middle will be the underground maze of neutral creeps, camps and shops. The maze will
also have creep camps directly in pathways. Many of them stealthed. So exploring and gaining XP
for your hero, which is a must for any melee map, will be much faster for many players early on.
That will push the early game towards the late game, easy XP and possible item drops.

Maze won't be easy to conquer though, progressively becoming tougher.

3. Getting access to flying units will be a huge advantage. In a 4v4, this can flip the tables.
So the center of the dungeon will feature the best camps, like the marketplace or the merc camps.
Hiring dragons. While at the sides players will still have gold mine camps to conquer with orange
level mobs defending them. And most mobs will have a chance to drop items.


So there you go. That's my plan. You can dissect it if you want, I'm still sticking to the idea.
And don't worry about the size, that's just my WIP. I plan to increase it if it doesn't fit
 
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Of course your map being featured by Blizzard is every mapper's dream.
Probably. Idk, it depends on you and why you wanna make maps.
I personally like being famous for my work, but don't feel like making changes that others suggest.
Feedback is one thing, but changing on a whim of others stinks like poo to me as a mapper.

I'm not disregarding your opinion on balance.

Of course I'm aiming for balance. Making unfair maps and posting them is just bad taste IMO.
I have a couple under my belt, everyone has that's the point of learning.

Anyway my idea for this contest was to make a melee map, but make it in a different way...
Instead of players expanding and conquering neutral camps by a constant progression of risk - reward,
why not bring it to them? So with that logic in mind:

1. Neutral buildings are highly valuable. Therefor, access to them will come at a cost.
That's the choice I wanna leave the player with playing my map. You'd either focus on
expansion or gaining fast XP for their heroes.

2. The start game will feel like a 2v2 rather than 4v4. I will separate 4 players on each side of the map
and in the middle will be the underground maze of neutral creeps, camps and shops. The maze will
also have creep camps directly in pathways. Many of them stealthed. So exploring and gaining XP
for your hero, which is a must for any melee map, will be much faster for many players early on.
That will push the early game towards the late game, easy XP and possible item drops.

Maze won't be easy to conquer though, progressively becoming tougher.

3. Getting access to flying units will be a huge advantage. In a 4v4, this can flip the tables.
So the center of the dungeon will feature the best camps, like the marketplace or the merc camps.
Hiring dragons. While at the sides players will still have gold mine camps to conquer with orange
level mobs defending them. And most mobs will have a chance to drop items.


So there you go. That's my plan. You can dissect it if you want, I'm still sticking to the idea.
And don't worry about the size, that's just my WIP. I plan to increase it if it doesn't fit

I like your idea of the maze, try to make it big with wide paths.



Thank you for your warm comments.
OK I give it another go. But I need to take a small break for now.

Thanks again

After seeing the play of my map I have to fix a lot of things:grin:
 
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The streamer from yesterday, @BaronVOnSG, is still interested in our maps. If you have a playable version, feel free to contact him on discord, and maybe he will able to gather some people for a test match.

The discord link is not valid anymore... But I would like to contact him and give him a direct link to download the map as @Ragnaros17 did on top of page 7. Any idea of how to do that ? (directly via Twitch chat ??)

Once again, I upload the map here if the streamer happen to look at this thread ^^'

Scar of Northrend | HIVE
 
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mafe

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Level 27
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The discord link is not valid anymore... But I would like to contact him and give him a direct link to download the map as @Ragnaros17 did on top of page 7. Any idea of how to do that ? (directly via Twitch chat ??)

Once again, I upload the map here if the streamer happen to look at this thread ^^'

I created the pastebin, then the link of the file, copy rute, and I post it in the discord chat gym channel, they downloaded the map and hosted.
 
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XanderD
I noticed that you have turned on "Brush List", the thing that makes editor lag when you rename units or change icons.
You should consider turning it of if you dont use it, for better performance (Window - Brush List). Nice wip bdw.
 

sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

I like your idea of the maze, try to make it big with wide paths.

Thanks :) will try to widen the paths.

Btw, I've made some alterations. Once I have a solid prototype I will upload it for testing if you want.
 

sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

Untitled.jpg

Here is my second WIP. Continued where I left off, added another player on the map.

Added multiple pathways around the river part of the map.

Added a high ground, unaccessible without flying transport units, which you buy from the central bridged area.

FUTURE WORK
Gonna continue, need to add 2 more players to the map on the left side.
 

mafe

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It may be a little late into the contest, but from the playtesting this weekend, I can only I recommend that you keep the following things into consideration:
-Make paths wide enough so that 4 armies can move around together without obstructing each other due to choke points or narrow paths, at least for majority of the map.
-Make bases sufficiently large so that buildings can be placed without nearly walling yourself in. In 4v4, players will often tp to their allies bases to help defend them, and they should be able to land in places where they wont be trapped for most of the fight.
-You might think differently, but earlygame aggression is a legitimate strategy. If you cant rush the enemy team with a few units before their expansions or t2 techs are half completed, it just takes away options and decisions from players, and therefore imho makes the game less fun in the long run.
 

sentrywiz

S

sentrywiz

It may be a little late into the contest, but from the playtesting this weekend, I can only I recommend that you keep the following things into consideration:
-Make paths wide enough so that 4 armies can move around together without obstructing each other due to choke points or narrow paths, at least for majority of the map.
-Make bases sufficiently large so that buildings can be placed without nearly walling yourself in. In 4v4, players will often tp to their allies bases to help defend them, and they should be able to land in places where they wont be trapped for most of the fight.
-You might think differently, but earlygame aggression is a legitimate strategy. If you cant rush the enemy team with a few units before their expansions or t2 techs are half completed, it just takes away options and decisions from players, and therefore imho makes the game less fun in the long run.

Thanks for your feedback. I will try to keep what you said in mind. However there are couple of problems by design:

- The map, even though 4v4 I've decided to make it hard for teams to help each other out in the early game. If you see the WIP above, you will see a river separating two. On each side there will be two opposing players (so it becomes a 2v2 or 1v1 in the early game). The other 4 players will have their own map just like the one above, but will be separated by the maze. Its hard to describe sorry

- Because I've put many creep camps on pathways, rushing early on with a small army will be suicide. Many of the creeps have shadowmeld, so you can't even see them until you ran into them (or its daytime). Therefor, in my map players should take advantage of the many creep camps to farm early XP for their heroes instead of going for early win. Not that you can't rush, but you'd take some losses on the way.

- The pathways are your biggest problem. While the area surrounding the maze is very open and has no possibility of choke points, the river pathways are very choke friendly and allow players to ambush armies with an array of towers, units or hero spells from high ground. Especially the expansions that will be accessible from the river will be very powerful defense choke points.

- Last thing is that no matter what, this map has a central theme other than defeat all players. It will be a sort of "mini-raid" where you buy flying units and assault very powerful creeps to access the best shops in the map. Like Dragon Roosts, Marketplace etc. And to get there, you have to buy a flying transport ship from the center bridge area. And maybe even defend that, because you don't want the enemy team up there with you on high grounds.


Map is still in early build, so I may take more of your advice than I say now, this is just what I think right now.
 
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Hello there, I'm adding here a link to the beta version of my map. There is a lot of details I won't write right here, and the downloadable version of the map is there too.
Scar of Northrend - Beta version | HIVE

-Make paths wide enough so that 4 armies can move around together without obstructing each other due to choke points or narrow paths, at least for majority of the map.

Yeah, I know that my map triggered most of this considerations about space for amies and bases .... and I have been working on it, making it more playable I think !! But... Even if I agree with the fact that being able to move around and have free space to manoeuver is important... Flat open ground only won't do it either, will it ? Because with big armies, the engagement impacts 50% of the fight... having stuffs to move around and being able to chose where you fight is also important, isn't it ?? Flat open battleground favor melee armies in general... Isn't variety the most important thing about battleground in general ? So that it's possible to find chokes, open battleground and all that...
 
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