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Melee map suggestions for tournaments and ladders (Spring 2020)

Discussion in 'Warcraft Discussion' started by mafe, Apr 26, 2020.

  1. JaleVeliki

    JaleVeliki

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    Great lists so far, some cool new and old maps in one place, awesome idea.

    These seem safe, polished, and interesting:

    - Logging Camp
    - Thawing Snow
    - Brightwater Oasis
    - Silverwing Clearing
    - Hillsbrad Creek - of course, already on ladder 2v2, but nice for 1v1 as well
    - Rivulet

    --------

    - Greenwood pass - is nice and pretty, but maybe needs unbuildable terrain on bridges, less dead ends, and some wider/more paths?
    - Sen'Jin Hideout - I would make corners more interesting and usable or creeping more interesting
    - MoonSpark - very aggressive and rushy, but pretty and interesting map
    - Northfall Isles - seems alright

    ...And many more new maps I can find to improve...

    - Northwatch Hold - will be better when both spawn sides are more equal for both players, AOW/Tree creeping is enabled, creep routes are worked on and the map terrain is made fair for both players. For now, I think it doesn't go into the same category as the other polished maps that are mentioned.

    - - - - - - - - -

    Ruins of Azshara is updated to now have two clear versions:
    1) LV version
    2) with Mana Fountains for enthusiasts

    Royal Gardens I wouldn't put on this Spring list for now, as it needs more testing and work to be even more balanced, but the version that is on Hive is okay to test I guess :)
     
  2. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    Agree with you about Northwach hold, and also agree with Meerel post.
    I also think minimap reading is not equal at the moment.
    but is a nice enviroment theme and the map has potential, it can be improved a lot IMO wich is good.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  3. mafe

    mafe

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    In an ideal world yes, but my impression is that pros most of the time dont spend time on testing new maps unless they are played in a tournament.
    I'll check again, but I dont think there was much else other than what I posted here. If I find something, I'll use discord/the thread of the respective map..
    I guess that's true, but it's also a map with a unique idea which is otherwise also quite good otherwise. I wanted to mention 1-2 more experimental, but still playable, maps among the runners-up. Just to avoid any misunderstanding, being among the runners-up means that I don't want these maps to be on the list, and not all of them are equal.
     
  4. mafe

    mafe

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    Ok, it's time for the list. Basically, I'm trying to summarize which maps have found the most approval overall. It's impossible to please everyone, but this isnt really necessary anyway, given that even some maps in the current competitive mappool are far from uncontroversial.

    I think the clearest choice is Ruins of Azshara. Almost everyone who posted here was including it. While the fountains might put off some people (they also are frowned upon by many pros), there is now a version without fountains available, so if necessary, tournament organizers can pick the version which suits them the most.

    Beyond that, it didnt seem to be that clear to me. There were several maps that were chosen multiple times: Thawing Snow, Senjins Hideout, Brightwater Oasis, Rivulet and Logging Camp, Moonspark.

    To be objective, I tried to calculate an "approval score" for the maps in two different ways. The general idea was to compare the number of picks the map actually received with the number of picks it "could" potentially receive.

    First, I counted all the picks from the people who I know as melee mapmakers. The reason to consider this group of people was the assumption that they knew "every" map, i.e. if they didnt pick a map, it wasnt for a lack of awareness about the map, but because they genuinely didnt consider it good enough. However, as far as I could tell, noone picked one of their own maps. So to account for this, the "potential" votes for a map do not include the person(s) who created this map. The score was as follows:

    Ruins of Azshara: 7/7 = 100%
    Thawing Snow: 4/6 = 67%
    Senjins Hideout: 4/6 = 67%
    Brightwater Oasis: 3/7 = 43%
    Rivulet: 4/8 = 50%
    Logging Camp: 1/7 = 14%
    Moonspark: 2/8 = 25%.

    Alternatively, I considered all of the feedback that was available to me: In addition to the picks from the mapmakers, this included the feedback from the pro players (as posted in my posts earlier) and the reviews of the judges from the melee mapping contest that I consider trustworthy and skilled people in the wc3 melee scene (Keito, Hightac, Remo). To consider the "potential" votes a map could receive from pros, I assumed that the maps that were not played in the New Horizons cup were unkown to pros, so they couldnt realistically be expect to pick them. In the same manner, a map only received a "potential" vote from a contest review if it was part of that contest. And it only received an actual vote from a contest review, if Keito/Hightac/Remo had it in the top5 of their reviews. Long story short, here are the scores:

    Ruins of Azshara: 9/15 = 60%
    Thawing Snow: 7/14 = 50%
    Senjins Hideout: 4/12 = 33%
    Brightwater Oasis: 5/15 = 33%
    Rivulet: 5/9 = 56%
    Logging Camp: 5/15 = 33%
    Moonspark: 2/9 = 22%

    Was does all of this mean? Well, indeed Ruins of Azshara is confirmed as the clear first choice. Going purely by this score, the next two maps that stand out are Thawing Snow and Rivulet. After that, the differences are relatively small, and while Snejins Hideout and Brightwater Oasis have the slightly higher scores than Logging camp, the latter was quite well received by the players at the new Horizons Cup.

    I know I said we should aim for a list of 5 maps, but in the light of this, I suggest to settle for the following list, containing 6 maps:
    Ruins of Azshara LV
    Thawing Snow
    Rivulet
    Sen'jin's Hideout
    Brightwater Oasis
    Logging Camp

    I hope that I made no miscounts and that the idea behind the scores is understandable. Should there be a significant amount of feedback arriving in the future, it is of course possible to make changes to this list. But for now, do you agree that this is list is a fair representation of the over opinions and feedback, or do you think that I overlooked something?
     
  5. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    What ever the maths are, it seems a bit sad that you @mafe and @Knecht are getting 2 maps in the list, while many mappers are basically excluded from the list, from potentially being used in tournaments and get feedback, see replays, to improve their maps and melee carreer.

    By removing Thawing snow and Brigthwater Oasis, you two still have 1 map, Logging camp and Seijing Hideout.

    and there could be room for as example: 1 map of @Arrr and 1 map of @Meerel, or even just 1 map made by boths. Rumble in the jungle (Avoj 2.0) I think those two mappers deserve to be included even if they dont win by being popular in the top 5 of nobody.

    I was hopping for a more comunal friendly list, being discussed, that will benefit the mayor amount of mappers rather than just a cold numbers method.

    thats the only thing I think it can be improved IMO, the top 6 of maps, the maps are very good, regarding the maps.
    but please dont offend of my comment, ,,I dont wish to cause problems.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  6. Deserted

    Deserted

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    I would like to partially agree with @WolfFarkas: list should be more inclusive.
    But I have to point out that it should include not a variety of mapmakers, but a variaty of their ideas.
    It's not the same thing.

    Edit: Death Road. Would it even be approved right now? With all those pathing issues and BLIGHT as decoration?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  7. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    1- boths objetives can be achieved.

    I desagree of the focus in maps and not in active map makers willing to work their carreer. Is like I care the eggs and but I dont care to feed the chiken that put the eggs.

    a map with no map mapper active it will remain unbalanced if it has unbalance issues.
    if this X map mapmaker currently is active, he cares for his career doing balanced melee, he wants to update maps, it would be nice to help it with high level feedback (plays)

    but instead temple field was chosen to be played and feedbacked, Cristal Kingdom nostalgia but has 3 mayor issues that need fix since 2011,or irresistible mind has been recomended here, but those mappers are inactive, since 1-2-3 years. and we cant hack hiveworkshop accounts to update those maps.


    2- they are easy to fix, but in the current state, nop.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  8. mafe

    mafe

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    Well, I can understand you point, but I just think it would not benefit the general idea of this topic.

    As you can see from my opening post and the title, the purpose of this thread was not to find the best mapmakers or give the mapmakers some public recognition. Instead, the purpose was to help to make new nonstandard given a chance in ladders/tournaments. As such I stand by the point that the list should include the best maps, irrespective of who created them.

    To out it bluntly: Noone outside our small circle cares who created a map. For tournaments, all that matters is how good the map is.

    You can look at some of the recent tournaments with special mappools. Several of them had multiple maps created by the same person:
    Ugri Challenge 2on2 (Disclaimer: I helped to find the mappool, but I suggested maybe 15-20 maps for this tournament)
    Warcraft3.info League - Season 1
    Hi2Chaco League Season 3 - Liquipedia Warcraft Wiki (Mappool decided by public poll with rather small participation)
    New Horizons Cup 1

    I believe that chances for nonstandard (1v1) maps to be included in tournaments are small enough already. Therefore my opinion is that we should make anything else a secondary objective to this greater goal.

    Yes, I'm aware that it is "easy" for me to talk this way because one of my maps (+2 where I also contributed something directly) is on the list. I'm sorry for all of the dedicated mapmakers whose maps didnt make the list.

    I have no idea yet if the list will be success, or be completely ignored. But just because a map isnt on the list doesnt automatically mean that it is ineligible for tournaments. Everyone who organizes a tournament is free to pick the maps he likes, and you are free to suggest other maps to them anyway.


    One more thing: I wanted to players to give openminded feedback, in particular to include any map that they thought was good no matter where the ap comes from. When I contacted the players, I did so with the following message:

    "Hey XXX,

    I'm part of the mapmaking community. Remo recently encouraged us to create a list of good new melee maps, with the goal that some of them will be used in future tournaments or ladders such as w3champions.

    For this, we would like to have the feedback of pro wc3 players. Since you played in Tak3rs New Horizons tournament, do you think that any of the maps played there, or any other new maps that you know, have what it takes to be used for competitive wc3? It would be great if you could tell us if you want to see new maps in the future, and if yes, which maps in particular you can recommend. You can send any feedback to me directly or even better, join us in our mapmakers discord and leave it there."

    Only after a specific map was mentioned by a player himself first, I started to ask about specific feedback for these. If players came up with old maps, then it is not because I made I made any "choices". Ultimately, the players will decide about the success of a map, that's why I think if we want maps to be successful, we should try to think from their perspective.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  9. Meerel

    Meerel

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    Certainly have something to say about the choosen maps that should be considered. I dont want them to be replaced or anything. the voting was fair and i think mafe put some work into it which should be
    appreciated.

    I looked at all the maps in the editor and played on them vs AI since i dont know many people to play against. I was 55% orc Player back in the days and played esl cups with Clan Demonknights [DK]. thats not particular good but still to give you guys some perspectiv. I know alot of you mappers dont even play Warcraft so i like to mention it.
    Playing vs AI still gives me everything i need to know. I look for readability of the terrain, creep composition and route, item drops, size of the map, size of open space. A really important aspect for me will always be how i feel while playing on those maps. Do i feel comfortable, lonely, lost? i think that should be considered, it makes players decide if they want to play again or not.
    Lordaeron Summer Tileset is the most used because it gives that comfortable feeling no matter how the layout might be.

    I really hope you guys put some equal effort into putting your list together. Looking at some pics on Hive is not what i expect here.

    Since some maps were allready used in the new horizon cup the votes are obviously a bit biased towards those. i dont know who decided what was used on horizon but in some cases that was certainly the wrong choice sorry.
    Same with adding Concealed Hill to Ladder which is absolutly a bad map for orc. i dont understand how that was totally dismissed or never considered.
    We always search for the most standard map giving every race what they want but somehow no one noticed or cared when there was finally an opportunity to get some on ladder. anyways...

    Wolffarkas mentioned including maps from every mapmaker which i have to disagree, its not about giving everyone a spot, its about quality work. Just like women quotas, if there is a better more qualified men to do the job why should the woman get it? doesnt make sense to me.

    anyways i will give some more feedback below:

    Ruins of Azshara LV
    - Well yea solid standard map, nice creep layout and items, nice expansion and shop positions, well done textures in combination with dark water which makes it very readable for the player. It could use a better combination of narrow chokes and open space, its kinda allways the same combination. Doesnt mean its bad, just the characteristic of the map.

    Thawing Snow
    - Difficult to say really, i certainly like the idea and the execution but i think its higly abusable for Undead. You have save creepcamps behind your base which are not harasable for orc, after creeping those you buy a boat and creep the bears underneath, ship across, creep the bears and push with lvl 3 dk directly into the base which would certainly be insanely imbalanced. I think human could do that aswell with milita creeping.
    But thats not the only thing, i dislike the trees infront of the expansion, it just feels so clunky building there and for the attacker aswell. It surpasses the standard size for a 1v1 map (96x96) by alot (105x116) which i felt while playing it. This might lead to stale creepfests where both players creep their side of the map and thats it.
    The Shop creepspot should be redesigned giving the creeps more space. its too narrow and feels off. A Trollpriest should never carry the main item since he can easily be killed with blademaster. And its a LVL 3 charged item, which drops the strongest items in the game. The expansion should drop a lvl 3 perma item, lvl 2 seems too low.
    Overall the Texturing and readability is nice. i always knew where i was while playing.

    Sen'jin's Hideout
    - i would like to take my suggested changes back (too many creeps top right corner). I consider this better than Azshara. It has some really nice creeplayout and creep composition, even tho some are really strong but players can figure that out. nice texturing and readability. lvl 2 charged item at the expansion is smart.

    Brightwater Oasis
    - oh well, dont be offended mafe but the texturing and doodad work really is questionable to put it mildly . overall the creeps are too strong at low lvls, i had a hard time finding a save creeproute without loosing half my units hp or more. the expansion is really far away, rdm neutral buildings will put players off, no question. i mean its a nice idea but not for standard ladder. The mapsize, creepdistance, area spacing, rush distance etc. are fine. overall i had the feeling that the map wasnt really finished.

    Logging Camp
    - not sure why so many people seem to like it. i just point out some things i noticed.
    the map feels gigantic, even tho its 'just' 104x104. i really felt lost, it gave me an uncomfortable feeling. its littered with orange creepspots for some reason. 16 orange creepspots are just too many sorry. Adding more creeps to a map just so areas wouldn't feel empty without them is not a good way making a map.

    the texturing is solid but uninspiring, everything looks the same. Areas should always vary in texturing or colors used to give players some direction. the creepspots are insanly far appart, i dont understand when the treebridge feature should ever be used. no race plays catas in any strat and they wont build them just to kick those trees over.

    The border design is insulting actually.

    Overall i think it shouldnt be considered at all and it only got here because it was somehow used in the new horizon cup. its not standard, its not high quality.
     
  10. Granite_Golem

    Granite_Golem

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    I vote for these maps.

    1v1
    Thawing Snow
    Sen'jin Hideout
    Brigthwater Oasis

    2v2
    Hellfire Plateau
    Vile Reef
    Circle of Fallen Heroes (Webpage on EpicWar)

    4v4
    Corrupted Forest
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
  11. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    It seems it's yours @mafe but it's not on HiveWo?
     
  12. mafe

    mafe

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  13. Granite_Golem

    Granite_Golem

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    I have wrote with Mafe. As he wishes, I now have removed the link to the alternative version of the map.
     
  14. Nightmare2077

    Nightmare2077

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    Hi guys,

    I'm happy to inform everyone that I've saved a bit of money for sponsoring another cup – a small one, however. It will take place tommorow, June 1.
    Here it is on challonge (anyone can sign up!) and on Liquidpedia.

    Recalling my experience from Hive Workshop Cup, I realised that I don't have the wherewithal to organise a large event yet. So all of the preparations for this one were rather austere. That's why all five maps in the map pool are from Hive cup melee mapping contest, in the form in which they appeared in October 2019. I'd love to have hosted a new selection of maps, but as I said, sadly this require way more effort than I could spare right now.

    adamcg, Anomines, JaleVeliki, Wayshan and mafe look out for your maps!!