• 🏆 Texturing Contest #33 is OPEN! Contestants must re-texture a SD unit model found in-game (Warcraft 3 Classic), recreating the unit into a peaceful NPC version. 🔗Click here to enter!
  • It's time for the first HD Modeling Contest of 2024. Join the theme discussion for Hive's HD Modeling Contest #6! Click here to post your idea!

[General] Maximum suggested import file size

Status
Not open for further replies.
Level 21
Joined
Mar 29, 2020
Messages
1,237
Hey there,

I've read some stuff on the site about trying to keep your map file small and not going overboard in terms of imports. I was wondering how much is too much given today's version of the game and computing today in general. The maps I'm working on are altered melee, so should be compact enough to run smoothly online.

thanks!
 
Level 12
Joined
Jan 30, 2020
Messages
875
Well it all depends.
In spite of the modern networks, not everyone has access to Gigabyte fiber connections.

But of course, we luckily don't have to suffer with old dial-up ones. You'll have make balanced choices.
For textures and icons, especially with Reforged, I would advise a compromise resolution that works really well in terms of visual quality and size : 128x128 pixels.

Also I would advise to use a good compression for BLP and not 8 mipmaps when it is useless (icons don't need more than 2 if I am not wrong)
Stay away from DDS unless your map is small enough to afford taking a bit more space. (note that DDS offers a bit more performance in the way Graphic cards manages them).

Don't use too many high poly models, or only if you use very few of them.

As for audio files, remember you can now use mp3 instead of WAV (nor should you import them as FLAC)

Overall some maps should not care about this if they are meant to be single player (especially RPGs) as the limit is 256Mb.

But if you could keep your map to only a few Mb, it would probably help everyone loading it fast.

Choose wisely ^^
 

Uncle

Warcraft Moderator
Level 64
Joined
Aug 10, 2018
Messages
6,534
.dds is the file type blizzard uses for Reforge icons. The older format (.blps) were smaller in size. We're talking about a difference of like 5 to 20 kb, so it's not a big deal.

It's not too difficult to get a pc that can run a 20 year old game, nor is it too hard to manage a 50mb download. I wouldn't cater to the minority of people that can't handle these extremely basic requirements.
 
Level 12
Joined
Jan 30, 2020
Messages
875
Well for the difference between BLP and DDS, it can become pretty noticeable when you use more JPEG compression in BLP. But with 100% quality, they are somewhat identical in size, and then DDS becomes much better. But thats why I recommend BLP : compression control.

Now I think a 50Mb map is bad for multiplayer.
Let me explain : my own map is only 5Mb with all its custom textures, icons and models, and even then, it takes about 10s to load when I test it (,not only because of preloading).

I can't imagine having people wait an entire extra minute (thats the internet speed I get here : 800Kb/s downloads), before being able to start playing my map.
Trust me I can feel the difference since I went to live among grass and trees :)

It's somewhat the same kind of problem as optimization in an environment with increased processing power : after what amount of extra power do you need to stop bothering about optimizing tour code ?

Note that this question is only relevant in a context of productivity.
 

Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
Level 63
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
27,195
Also I would advise to use a good compression for BLP and not 8 mipmaps when it is useless (icons don't need more than 2 if I am not wrong)
BLP either has all mipmaps, or no mipmaps. Anything in-between is malformed/corrupt.

I recommend 80% compression as that is what classic graphics used. Mipmaps are mostly needed as they will be used when people reduce texture quality. A lot of people using Reforged graphics have to reduce texture quality to play custom maps due to how much GPU memory it can use (6 GB easily for some RPGs).
As for audio files, remember you can now use mp3 instead of WAV (nor should you import them as FLAC)
FLAC sits in the middle as it results in smaller file sizes than WAV but larger than MP3 due to being lossless.
damage detection system?
.dds is the file type blizzard uses for Reforge icons.
DDS files are Direct Draw Surface files. A very old file format that due to its optimized nature has recently become the standard for storing buffer data for real time graphics. The data itself is uncompressed meaning the files load faster and more simply with the job of compression being left to the archive that holds the file.
Well for the difference between BLP and DDS, it can become pretty noticeable when you use more JPEG compression in BLP. But with 100% quality, they are somewhat identical in size, and then DDS becomes much better. But thats why I recommend BLP : compression control.
Most of the problems with BLP JPEG compression come from incorrect colour management and spaces. JPEG can be used for textures but the way Blizzard used it was highly flawed, possibly due to inexperience and technical limitations.
note that DDS offers a bit more performance in the way Graphic cards manages them
DDS textures technically load faster because they do not need to undergo inverse fast Fourier transform like JPEG blocks do. Instead file data can be copied directly into GPU buffers, ready to use. Since the file data is shrunk with a real time friendly compression algorithm it also saves on PCIe bandwidth moving the texture to the GPU (discrete GPUs only) as well as memory bandwidth of the GPU itself when using the buffer due to each sampled texel using less data.

It is important to be aware that DDS textures can be compressed by the MPQ compression where as JPEG BLP files will not since JPEG compression is already compressed with similar algorithms. Even still DDS usually compresses worse since the compression used is not optimized for storing DDS files.

Google developed a method to store DDS files with lossy compression allowing a compromise with all positive aspects. Sadly this seems to have fallen out of favour since the modern motto is to throw larger SSDs at the problem given how ludicrously fast modern SSDs are.
 
Level 12
Joined
Jan 30, 2020
Messages
875
Indeed @Dr Super Good, thanks for this, really extremely informative and corrects most false ideas.

I also didn't know about mipmaps in BLP, what's the "fake mipmaps" entries in BLP Lab then ?
 

Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
Level 63
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
27,195
I also didn't know about mipmaps in BLP, what's the "fake mipmaps" entries in BLP Lab then ?
BLP Labs was made using a hugely wrong BLP specification. Since the author has long disappeared and it is closed source, no one could fix it.

As far as I am aware BLP Labs is incapable of generating mipmap-less BLP files because the specification used at the time did not correctly describe the Has Mipmaps field. It is unaware of this field and as such it cannot turn mipmaps off. This leaves it up to the user to configure it such that it generates a full set of mipmaps images otherwise the resulting BLP will technically be malformed. How WC3 handles such a malformed BLP varies between versions, but one possible outcome is that it will fail to load.

Additional mipmap images stored within the BLP can be considered padding/redundant data as they are outside of what will be used for mipmaps.
 
Level 12
Joined
Jan 30, 2020
Messages
875
Again, very valuable knowledge !

It seems I was wrong in quite a few choices, I'll definitely have to reconsider my entire approach about this.
Are there safe alternatives to BLP Lab that use the proper specification?

As for textures I keep with little compression, I will now seriously consider switching to DDS, according to everything you taught me.

Thanks again for sharing.
 
Level 12
Joined
Jan 30, 2020
Messages
875
How is it unreliable ?

If none of the tools can do the job, maybe it is indeed time for a complete switch to DDS after all ^^
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top