Map Section issues {A message to all map "reviewers".}

Level 8
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
315
Ladies, Gentlemen,

I support Zombie's message. It looks like most people calling them "map reviewer" with quite arrogance are definitely not testing the map more than 5 minutes - when they test it: most of time, with such "review", it seems they just read the description.

And, once again, I'm definitely bored to read 10 people proposing a map maker to use BBCodes in 10 messages without one saying "You should improve the unit XYZ because the spell ABC is not blabla.

No, I read only "Poor description RULES VIOLATION" written with an aggressive red, ended with "VOTE FOR REJECTION".

In France, we call the guys using MSN messenger with tons of smileys, words like "omg XD lol huhu" the "kikoolols". [Kikoo comes from "Coucou", a french word to say "hi", and lol, of course, is lol. Kikoolols are most of time poor kids not able to talk but only to spam smileys, emotiwords, exclamation mark etc.]

To all people calling themselves reviewers: stop to be "kikoolols". Write criticism. Once again, why the hell are you judging a map:
1-Without being moderator
2-Without testing the map seriously
3-Without giving advices to improve the map (and not that damned BBCodes, poor god!)
4-Without simply trying to help the author instead of burning him with nuke bombs?

Have a nice day,



First thing I was told was to use BBcodes and also that I needed to prove I was the real author for my map I recently submitted (map author was my B.net account name, which differs from forum name, which I told them). Haven't heard back since. I just see my map, along with dozens of others, as "pending". They're good at telling use what to do about the description, but not what to do for the map. Sure people won't DL it if they don't know how it works or plays, but I doubt its reputation will stand if it sucks. Maybe we already have enough good maps for WC3 and everyone should stop mapping!
:goblin_boom:
 
Level 8
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
315
It'd be nice to have some mandatory guidelines that don't revolve around the description of a map being critiqued instead of the map itself... maybe not bother with the description until the map has proven worthy of being accepted in the first place? I mean, the community is a handy source for WC3 as it is, but I rarely look forward to submitting a map (another topic, will not go there).
 
Level 31
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
3,156
It'd be nice to have some mandatory guidelines that don't revolve around the description of a map being critiqued instead of the map itself... maybe not bother with the description until the map has proven worthy of being accepted in the first place? I mean, the community is a handy source for WC3 as it is, but I rarely look forward to submitting a map (another topic, will not go there).

Not bother with the description is encouraging the user itself to break the submission rules.

I swear some users scroll through the map list and just simply drop "Bad Description blargh" at every map. Why?

they are just plain lazy to explain WHY
 
Level 14
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
1,027
As far as suggested moderation guidelines go, Crabby_Spider submitted this:

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/1729496-post14.html

He was never responded to. As for trash map uploading, as there are a number of them, it's possible to require a minimum number of changes to the map first. Changing an unit or two and calling the game custom doesn't really cut it; since you guys want to ensure you don't become like epicwar.

//\\oo//\\

Edit:
Based on ap0c's comment, I get the impression that the map section is unmoderated because of 2 things:
1) too few moderators
2) Ap0c is waiting for a decision in the mod thread, hence his lack of moderation. He doesn't know what the hell to do yet.

Out of curiosity, you mods/admin wouldn't be close to a solution(s) yet would you?
 
Last edited:
Level 22
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
3,292
As far as suggested moderation guidelines go, Crabby_Spider submitted this:

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/1729496-post14.html

He was never responded to. As for trash map uploading, as there are a number of them, it's possible to require a minimum number of changes to the map first. Changing an unit or two and calling the game custom doesn't really cut it; since you guys want to ensure you don't become like epicwar.

//\\oo//\\

Edit:
Based on ap0c's comment, I get the impression that the map section is unmoderated because of 2 things:
1) too few moderators
2) Ap0c is waiting for a decision in the mod thread, hence his lack of moderation. He doesn't know what the hell to do yet.

Out of curiosity, you mods/admin wouldn't be close to a solution(s) yet would you?

In the maps section there are only 2, of which one has been offline for a while now.
 
He was never responded to. As for trash map uploading, as there are a number of them, it's possible to require a minimum number of changes to the map first. Changing an unit or two and calling the game custom doesn't really cut it; since you guys want to ensure you don't become like epicwar.

Minimum changes is still WAY too lenient
The map should be totally original:
-Altered Melee: Terrain should be completely new - units obviously can stay the same, but the terrain cannot be edited from any other Blizz/Non-Blizz made map.
-Other: Map should be completely original in design and application (of course maps of the same genre can have similarities, but one map cannot be edited from another).
-Altered Blizz Custom Map (for things like Warchasers) - up to the discretion of the map moderator

Basically unless it can't stand to be completely original, it should be to be accepted
 
Level 28
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
1,532
1) too few moderators
2) Ap0c is waiting for a decision in the mod thread, hence his lack of moderation. He doesn't know what the hell to do yet.

Out of curiosity, you mods/admin wouldn't be close to a solution(s) yet would you?

Man, its same as was in 2008, when I was map moderator. We are only three at first place, then two guys left, and I left some period only one. Alone, like ap0capypse is now! Which means I really do not know what staff really think about cause same things happenings over and over. I do not know why they don't simply hire many moderators, rather than two, three, so one or two will left, and still one available moderator will do his job, but he alone is useless. he tests 10 maps today, but people upload 20. Plus old pending ones.
 
Level 22
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
3,292
Man, its same as was in 2008, when I was map moderator. We are only three at first place, then two guys left, and I left some period only one. Alone, like ap0capypse is now! Which means I really do not know what staff really think about cause same things happenings over and over. I do not know why they don't simply hire many moderators, rather than two, three, so one or two will left, and still one available moderator will do his job, but he alone is useless. he tests 10 maps today, but people upload 20. Plus old pending ones.

Because as said a few pages back, there aren't people (many / if any) that staff trust with such positions...
 
Level 14
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
1,027
In the maps section there are only 2, of which one has been offline for a while now.

2 is still too few... especially if you can't gaurentee they're always going to be on. 4-5 would be better, especially considering the volume of maps.

Minimum changes is still WAY too lenient
The map should be totally original:
-Altered Melee: Terrain should be completely new - units obviously can stay the same, but the terrain cannot be edited from any other Blizz/Non-Blizz made map.
-Other: Map should be completely original in design and application (of course maps of the same genre can have similarities, but one map cannot be edited from another).
-Altered Blizz Custom Map (for things like Warchasers) - up to the discretion of the map moderator

Basically unless it can't stand to be completely original, it should be to be accepted

~Melee maps should have an entirely new terrain. Altered melee maps shouldn't have that requirement. This map is an altered melee using a blizzard terrain. Should it be rejected solely because of terrain?

~You kind of contradicted yourself here, a genre implies non-originality. Very few maps are a new genre in and of themselves. Maps should NOT simply be edits however. Now of course, where do we distinguish between an edit to an existing map and a different map which has many similarities but 1-2 obvious alterations. The map I'm currently working on is designed to compete with CastleBuilder games and includes many similarities with some key differences. Admitingly, my map is obviously different but what about maps where that isn't the case?

~Leaving things to the discretion of the mods only asks for more problems. Ratings are discressional, moderation shouldn't be. They need a stated list to go by when determining approval/rejection. Ap0c could be for something Cweener isn't. Inconsitences could be resolved by admin, but what if they don't agree? Then you'd go to ralle. The whole reason we have admin/mods is because ralle can't do resolve everything all by himself.

For those of you who'd argue that this scenario would never happen, you must design the system so that it can't. You must 'idiot-proof' it, finding every possible way to break it and then ensure it can't be broken in that manner.

//\\oo//\\
 
Level 8
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
315
Not bother with the description is encouraging the user itself to break the submission rules.
I meant, if the general description is there, the modder shouldn't really bother with telling the submitter to describe each race and the objectives in explicit detail. I mean, that's a bit much. (those were just examples) If the description is THAT important in the submission rules, maybe there needs to be some changes directly in the rules.
 
People just flame about descriptions to flame.
Even if that wasn't considered important in the rules, people would still complain about it. Look at the people who do that, most of them never say anything positive, or anything on maps that could be approved - they just go find something with a bad description and start saying things like fail to satisfy their own egos, they enjoy being douche bags.

It's not a problem with the rules, it's a problem with the people.
 
Level 30
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
6,276
People just flame about descriptions to flame.
Even if that wasn't considered important in the rules, people would still complain about it. Look at the people who do that, most of them never say anything positive, or anything on maps that could be approved - they just go find something with a bad description and start saying things like fail to satisfy their own egos, they enjoy being douche bags.

It's not a problem with the rules, it's a problem with the people.

Which is why the hive needs a more regulated mod/approve/review system.

the map doesent come on (to public view) after a quick technical review by somone who wants to do this. next step is reviewing.

A user posts a rating or a review, preferably with a 30 minute time lag between when they dl the map and when they rate, to ensure testing, or atleast to be too much pain for trollers.

people who have done that can rate the map, or write a review, and that goes on the public score.

next, in an order of seniority, or public weight, a map Reviewer (can also be a moderator) will go in, test the map, and post an official review, they can also sponsor a user review if they think that it has enough detail/objectivisim.

that seems like he most effective way of segregating all scores.

and that way, people can know what to look for, playtesting, or ruletesting.
 
Level 27
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
4,788
Which is why the hive needs a more regulated mod/approve/review system.

the map doesent come on (to public view) after a quick technical review by somone who wants to do this. next step is reviewing.

A user posts a rating or a review, preferably with a 30 minute time lag between when they dl the map and when they rate, to ensure testing, or atleast to be too much pain for trollers.

people who have done that can rate the map, or write a review, and that goes on the public score.

next, in an order of seniority, or public weight, a map Reviewer (can also be a moderator) will go in, test the map, and post an official review, they can also sponsor a user review if they think that it has enough detail/objectivisim.

that seems like he most effective way of segregating all scores.

and that way, people can know what to look for, playtesting, or ruletesting.

As I have stated many times before, this system will not be implemented on this thw.
It's been planned for thw 2.0 (that's been decided for almost half a year now).

It's pretty useless trying to discuss this matter any further.

Hakeem said:
Someone in chat linked a pic--Was it in chat? Maybe it was on dA... Anyway, it was a picture of Snape and Malfoy's father doing a team rocket parody as death eaters. This recalled a few memories from my having read the first four books. Notably applicable was the Defense Against the Dark Arts position at Hogwarts. You see, in each of the four books, there is a new DADA teacher. The position is believed to be cursed. I didn't read the last three books, so I have no idea if/how the curse was removed.


Gentlemen.

I believe we have a cursed staff position on our hands.
The truth (quoted from another thread).
 
Level 14
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
1,027
As I have stated many times before, this system will not be implemented on this thw.
It's been planned for thw 2.0 (that's been decided for almost half a year now).

It's pretty useless trying to discuss this matter any further.

Oh, so a decision has been made. The only question remaining is what's the current time-frame for implementing it? (I realise that it is subject to change and isn't done until it's done...)

You guys are ensuring deleted maps are actually deleted on this new system, right?

//\\o0//\\
 
Level 27
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
4,788
They've been talking about THW 2.0 for a while now, I believe it was supposed to be integrated when the Sc2 resource section was added, obviously this hasn't come to pass yet
I don't think that was the deadline.
I think the deadline was in 'about a year, if not more' (that was half a year ago), as the site's being completely rebuilt from scratch (no more vB or other hosting sites)..
That concludes Boris' first question as well.

Boris said:
You guys are ensuring deleted maps are actually deleted on this new system, right?
I wouldn't know what Ralle is planning to do with deleted maps, but he doesn't seem to like it when a resource gets deleted, so I just don't do it.
On thw 2.0... maybe, but I cannot answer that :/
 
I don't think that was the deadline.
I think the deadline was in 'about a year, if not more' (that was half a year ago), as the site's being completely rebuilt from scratch (no more vB or other hosting sites)..
That concludes Boris' first question as well.

Hmmm maybe it was vice-versa and Ralle said he'd add sc2 when the site is redesigned and people bugged him enough to go ahead and make a sc2 resource section now
 

Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
Level 59
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
26,664
I am a bit concerned about the admin activity. There is a distinctive lack of them providing information into this sort of site dicussion thread allowing far too much speculation and inaccuracies to be distributed.

Hopefully this is temporary, as it is exam time.
 
Level 35
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
4,044
I am a bit concerned about the admin activity. There is a distinctive lack of them providing information into this sort of site dicussion thread allowing far too much speculation and inaccuracies to be distributed.

Hopefully this is temporary, as it is exam time.

Pissed about people occupying your seat then going afk, eh?

Not really the point of this thread, but I myself lost pace of what exactly we're discussing here tbh.
 
Level 14
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
1,027
Not really the point of this thread, but I myself lost pace of what exactly we're discussing here tbh.

It was supposed to address the 'map reviewers' favorite activity: trolling/flameing/spamming useless comments. Since only one or two of them ever bothered to respond, it was mostly a failed attempt.

Now we're posting useless posts about possible solutions, which at the soonest might be implemented in 1/2 a year. Possibly sooner if everyone decides to harrass ralle simeltaneously.

So to sum it all up, we're going to continue making threads like this over the next 6+ months since the map section is practically unmoderated and there's nothing we can do about it.

//\\oo//\\
 
Level 20
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
2,999
Pissed about people occupying your seat then going afk, eh?

Fair doos. I would be. =/
I must say considering the amount of admins, they do seem to take very little interest in threads like this, and don't anyone flame/bullshit with me they have lives and/or it's a big site. I've been an admin and part of several sites/projects/w/e.
It doesn't take long to click on a thread like such, read a few posts and comment a line or two. (what 10mins? if that)
And if you don't have time to do that, frankly you shouldn't be performing that duty.

And there presence in the chatroom isn't exactly null.
I'm not saying there bad people or bad admins, but some more 'thread presence' would be nice.
Kinda' like English policemen, good at deskwork, but fail to get out and deal with the community, so they never know what they truly want/need, just sit looking and facts and figures, making guesses on what to spend money on.
 
Fair doos. I would be. =/
I must say considering the amount of admins, they do seem to take very little interest in threads like this, and don't anyone flame/bullshit with me they have lives and/or it's a big site. I've been an admin and part of several sites/projects/w/e.
It doesn't take long to click on a thread like such, read a few posts and comment a line or two. (what 10mins? if that)
And if you don't have time to do that, frankly you shouldn't be performing that duty.

And there presence in the chatroom isn't exactly null.
I'm not saying there bad people or bad admins, but some more 'thread presence' would be nice.
Kinda' like English policemen, good at deskwork, but fail to get out and deal with the community, so they never know what they truly want/need, just sit looking and facts and figures, making guesses on what to spend money on.

Like we've said, these threads are made several times a year so most of the staff just don't bother responding to them any more, since they all end up going the same direction anyway
 
Level 35
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
4,044
Like we've said, these threads are made several times a year so most of the staff just don't bother responding to them any more, since they all end up going the same direction anyway

I can see why that is. I simply wanted to deliver a message to the community to change their act and it ended up in bickering and people pointing fingers again. Not that I proposed anything, really.

Then again, the staff's job should be to look into such issues, so users don't have to voice an opinion, since if that happens it's already bad. Not only doesn't it produce anything of value, it also shows how out of control things really are.
 
Like we've said, these threads are made several times a year so most of the staff just don't bother responding to them any more, since they all end up going the same direction anyway

Well note that map moderators don't just stop moderating map resources of the same type because they've done it before, or that chat moderators just ban someone permanently and never un-ban them so they don't have to deal with them anymore (for smaller things). It's pretty much your job as staff to respond to these sorts of things even if they've been addressed before.

Of course you could always sticky an old thread or put a like "Q and A" type thread up of questions already resolved so you have something to tell people to look to, but when the moderation seems absent from threads specifically meant to garner their attention, it doesn't exactly reflect well on the staff.
 
We only had like 3 anyway, all we really have that are accounted for atm is Ap0

Hmmmm how is the spell section doing on moderators? You could try giving some of them double duty to make up for the lack of map mods, they require a lot of the same skills (of course maps are more all around more demanding but you get the point). But if the spell section is having the same issues then that's not really worth it
 
Map section is in worst place here if you ask me, icon, model, skin... can be tested easily, try to test looking good AOS map or campaign you will need a lot of time, should I tell you that every 3th or 4th map don't have singleplayer mode, grrr I need to bother friends once per week to test few maps for some short time so I will be able to at least give some review!

And after all maps require a hell good description and ofc credit list, people who created models... deserve at least their name there!

There is 2 many bad or poor quality maps that only take time for testing them, they got rejected because author name is "Unknown" or map category (as well as type) "None"!
They don't have map preview or loading screen what is really easy to create now it's soon 2011 after all -.-
Some dudes import useless files into them running fun even more!
I even saw JPG files above 3 MB imported for no reason!

Why is size important, well 2 many times I downloaded cinematic maps that take up to 50 MB space only because author imported mp3 files (192 or above bitrate) that took half space -.-

Maybe sound funny, but 50 MB downloading with 1MB dl speed isn't really epic thing to do!


So point is, after all this shitz and things happening here, when I even create and post review (yes I know, I don't have soul, I just say bad things about map and miss good ones, well who the hell need good things, when there are 2 many bad ones to fix/improve and so on), uploders usually ignore it or start to troll and cry!


Bah I saw everything, even maps where I was bad guy and hero quest was to slay me -.-

So when we put all these thing together this look so FU right :sad:

Just ask yourself when staff promoted map to DC last time?
 
Exactly, 12 pages x 20 equal to 240 unchecked (more or less) maps!
If ap0 spare only 5 min to dl, open map in WE or even worse wc3, check triggers, gameplay and so on, write review and do moderation that will take around 1200 min and that equal to 20 hours of work!

As you know each map need at least half hour to be checked by us reviewers, it will take 2 much free time = main reason why this scare moderators :D

Solution?

Few moderators at first place and larger number of reviewers must be found!
 
Level 7
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
168
I'm not really "in" this community, but I have submitted my map, Custom Hero Arena Revolutions (if you care, you can search for it). I read the rules for posting a map, which took about 5 minutes. Compared to the hundreds of hours put into editing, 5 minutes was not a big deal for me. I made sure to include everything required into my initial post, which I spent a good 15 minutes writing up. One of my first responses was still that I should fancy up my post; but that I had correctly followed the posting rules.

With investing 20 minutes into reading the posting rules and making a post that went along with them; I already had a good basis, with no one screaming about grammar. I spent another 10 minutes after that, looking up BB codes and making my post and and colorful and well organized.

30 minutes invested in a good map write-up that allowed players to get a basic understanding of the map before they downloaded it. 1 thing I had that many people may not, was a bot running it on all servers, so, as a multiplayer only map, made it much easier for anyone interested to test it.

With 30 minutes invested in doing a proper write-up on my map that I spent hundreds of hours of work on; I was getting a good deal of "quality" reviews. People offered suggestions and constructive criticism, which I accepted and asked questions about; and we had civil conversations about.

The map was approved within 2 days.

What does this boil down to?
If someone is not willing to invest 30 minutes into doing a decent write-up on their map and follow the rules, or at least come close to the rules for posting... What does that say about their map?
Being understaffed, you want as many high-quality maps as possivble to get the stamp of approval. If someone cannot come up with more than a half-assed post for their map, why should the reviewer invest 5X that time reviewing it? Skip to the maps that, at least, by appearance have a lot of effort put into them.

you're at the bar. there is a hot girl sitting at the corner, eyeing you. there is what looks like the cross between an ogre and pear sitting at a table, also eyeing you. the hot girl could have a penis; and the ogre might rock your world and cure cancer and have 8 million dollars. however, you are gonna take your shot with the hot girl first.
 
Level 22
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
3,292
Glorn2 said:
If someone is not willing to invest 30 minutes into doing a decent write-up on their map and follow the rules, or at least come close to the rules for posting... What does that say about their map?
Being understaffed, you want as many high-quality maps as possivble to get the stamp of approval. If someone cannot come up with more than a half-assed post for their map, why should the reviewer invest 5X that time reviewing it? Skip to the maps that, at least, by appearance have a lot of effort put into them.


I infact agree with him.
 
Level 14
Joined
Oct 16, 2010
Messages
944
The simple temporary solution here (for the current topic, not the one this thread is actually about) is to get 1 or 2 more map moderators.

But to be honest, I don't know who would want the job. I haven't been here long, but from what i've seen you have like 6 new maps uploaded every day (as opposed to like 1 new skin every 3 days that takes a quarter of the time to test). Although it isn't the moderators job to actually review the map, only test it and make sure it works and follows the rules, that still means they have to download 6 maps a day, open them up in WE, check to make sure everything works, make sure the description is alright, make sure the author name and everything is alright, make sure there are proper credits, and then give them the approval.

On top of that consider this, if maps are rejected for one reason or another then the moderators have to periodically check htem to see if there are any changes right? So before you know it you're gonna have 6 new maps a day + like 200 pending maps that still need fixes.

Just ask yourself when staff promoted map to DC last time?

The DC section of this site is a joke. I DL all of them just to see what those mappers were doing 'right' and half the maps I downloaded were complete crap and the rest were just 'meh'. There was only 1 that could even be considered as being a contestant for a DC. But I do agree with you, I don't know if I have yet played a single map that was good enough in all aspects of the game to be given a DC.
 
Level 7
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
168
Why not just make the current system of "map reviewing" be the official system?

- As is, a dozen people with the self-proclaimed title of "Map Reviewer" will do a half-page break down of your map, and how it score in their opinion.
- A mod pops in and sees "Ohh hay, 6 people gave this a good rating; and those 6 people do a lot of map reviewing." *Clicks approve*


If the site is too lazy to do the legwork, why don't you guys start a thread for people to sign up to be "official" map reviewers, and then vote on 20 or so who the community believes will do the job in a non-half-assed-kinda-way. You can then submit these names to someone big and important.

After this, you simply submit a map for review, where a few of those 20 people can look at it and give their opinion. Maps must score at least a 4 outta 5 to be passed up to a mod who will then make the final decision whether or not the map gets the "okay."

Considering all of you right here have the power to nominate amongst yourselves the people who are best suited for the jobs... It would be a good idea to get started on that.
 
Level 27
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
4,788
Why not just make the current system of "map reviewing" be the official system?

- As is, a dozen people with the self-proclaimed title of "Map Reviewer" will do a half-page break down of your map, and how it score in their opinion.
- A mod pops in and sees "Ohh hay, 6 people gave this a good rating; and those 6 people do a lot of map reviewing." *Clicks approve*


If the site is too lazy to do the legwork, why don't you guys start a thread for people to sign up to be "official" map reviewers, and then vote on 20 or so who the community believes will do the job in a non-half-assed-kinda-way. You can then submit these names to someone big and important.

After this, you simply submit a map for review, where a few of those 20 people can look at it and give their opinion. Maps must score at least a 4 outta 5 to be passed up to a mod who will then make the final decision whether or not the map gets the "okay."

Considering all of you right here have the power to nominate amongst yourselves the people who are best suited for the jobs... It would be a good idea to get started on that.
That's what I do already (it doesn't even have to be a review of half a page).
If I see a trusted member of this site thinks a map is ready for approval, I approve it without further notice.

There are several problems though: we don't have 20 people who constantly post reviews in the maps section (we have a few, and others who post a review every now and then, but certainly not that frequently).

Also, if a map is reported for stealing, then I have to go download several maps (yesterday I even had to download 8 maps to be sure), compare them carefully etc.
This is my duty, and it's actually one of the things I like most because I do not want to see any stolen map on the hive.
I also need to read entire threads a day, searching for both good and useless comments so I can take appropriate actions.

And well... it's exam period.
Contrary to popular belief, I also have a social life (I'll be gone this evening and tomorrow as well), so that doesn't make it any better.


Either way, this night (I'll be on after midnight, probably) I'll browse through the maps section, searching for maps that do not meet the minimum criteria.
It's still a pain to do alone though :/
 
Top