LTW - Evolution v2.43

[AnonymousPro]

Let me test this map with public, hopefully it could last.
I would want to know why both 1.66 version and 2.20 are here.
Is 2.20 an updated version of that, or are the improved version with totally different systems.
I guess v2.x has AI and v1.x doesn't?

 

[Robbepop]

v2.x and v1.x are totally different.
they both got a complete different map code and a completely different tower setup.

v1.x versions have the well-known old-school tower setup with missile, siege and elemental towers.

In the v2.x version I have implemented a totally different and new (more strategical) tower setup without elemental towers as basic towers.

Besides that the v2.x versions have got a cool mode choosing module and computer oponents which can be activated.^^

Robbepop

 

[bogidr]

Robbepop your map is awesome i played it with friends the idea is very good balance is good i didn't think that computers are so hard and put comp insane then i got crushed 5/5
for your map + rep.

 

[AnonymousPro]

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21/wc3scrnshot122212070551.jpg/I tested it. In my game the following colors didn't get any spawn.
Gray, Brown and dark green.

 

[Robbepop]

hiho,

@AnonymousPro: that's very interesting as I have tested this map hundred of times (really ...) and this bug never happened to me once.
Have you occupied all slots by computers or have you left these three slots free?

Robbepop

 

[InfernalTater]

I tested it a few times full house of insane comps, had no problems, encountered no bugs. The comps seemed like they were cheating early on XD but I ended up killing them anyway. Comps can't fight attackers, because they place their towers randomly. You might want to have them put walls as their first row.

 

[AnonymousPro]

hiho,

@AnonymousPro: that's very interesting as I have tested this map hundred of times (really ...) and this bug never happened to me once.
Have you occupied all slots by computers or have you left these three slots free?

Robbepop

As you see from screenshot, I left some slots empty
3 human 6 bots, and empty 3 open slots.
I ticked all the mode except transfer lives.

 

[Robbepop]

yeah I now understand the bug your wanted to report and I must admit that I also experienced this. however, I can't exactly say if it is really a bug or just a wrong setting of the bots.^^

I also have to admit that the bots were only tested on the default game modes and not on stream income, hard game or something like that.

Robbepop

edit: are there still fatal errors or have I fixed them?

 

[Robbepop]

has anybody already won against multiple insane AIs?^^
if yes, please tell me how you achieved that.

 

[InfernalTater]

has anybody already won against multiple insane AIs?^^
if yes, please tell me how you achieved that.

I have. Not any specific strategy, I just make decisions as I play. They're hard as shit though, and they have like 10x my income in the first minute, but I eventually catch up.

 

[Bel_Orc]

Too freaking hard!

 

[Robbepop]

good !!

 

[InfernalTater]

Robbepop, do you not check your 1.66 anymore? I commented a while back informing you that the anti-block system is no longer working. That's a serious issue and needs to be fixed, because people are starting to notice it and just wall off their whole lane with no need for a maze; only attacker and air defense. This sort of thing really ruins the game, and has to be fixed.

 

[Robbepop]

hiho,

dafuq. 0.o
actually I haven't really changed anything there for a while.
this is confusing me.
are you sure that you are playing the official v1.66 ltw-evolution version which you can download here at the hive?

Robbepop

 

[InfernalTater]

Yes, of course, that's where I download my LTW's.

 

[Robbepop]

sounds strange to me that this bug wasn't detected more early since this version v1.66 is really old nowadays.

 

[InfernalTater]

sounds strange to me that this bug wasn't detected more early since this version v1.66 is really old nowadays.

I think it had to do with the patch a few months ago. Seems like every time there's a patch, it messes up the way some maps work and I always have to redesign my trigger systems.

 

[Robbepop]

well, sometimes it is a bit hard to manage so many different maps and having so long pause durations sometimes between working on the same map.

 

[Robbepop]

I just released a new version because the old one had some ugly glitches and the elemental towers didn't quite fit in well. I hope that you also like the terrain changes. =)

Robbepop

 

[Zeatlan agralem]

This version was bad, i prefer 1.66 it's very original version, but now ... It's just strange version...

 

[Robbepop]

You should give it a chance at least. Try some of the new towers intotruced in this version and you will notice all the cool strategical aspects coming with them. I also reintroduced the elemental towers with stages in this version so that the overall game shouldn't feel so strange anymore.

Robbepop

 

[InfernalTater]

This is part of why I suggested you change the name somehow. The classic LTW is really fun, and this is fun, too, but it's kind of like biting into a chocolate chip cookie and finding out it's actually a slice of meat. They're both really good, but they're so vastly different that it causes many people to not enjoy it.

Maybe... "Column Tower Wars"

 

[Robbepop]

so I should rename my map only because it got another elemental tower setup which makes it a completely different game? hm, ... I really don't know if I can support this thinking. even v1.66 is extremely different from the first line tower wars versions on bnet many years ago and people still call it line tower wars while it is even more different to these old-school ltw's than this v2.x version is different from the v1.6x versions. the problem is that people in general don't like to try new things and most won't even like new things even if they are better because people aren't used to them.

another name wouldn't help but would hurt the popularity of this map. "column tower wars? never heard, never played!"

in fact this newest version of the line tower wars serie especially carves out the meaning of the chosen name "LTW EVOLUTION" it is not only a static version with a constant flow and never changing mechanics, it is undergoing a major evolution with every new version and since this map is already several years old you might guess that evolution is a mighty thing but it takes time. ;-)

Robbepop

 

[InfernalTater]

so I should rename my map only because it got another elemental tower setup which makes it a completely different game? hm, ... I really don't know if I can support this thinking. even v1.66 is extremely different from the first line tower wars versions on bnet many years ago and people still call it line tower wars while it is even more different to these old-school ltw's than this v2.x version is different from the v1.6x versions. the problem is that people in general don't like to try new things and most won't even like new things even if they are better because people aren't used to them.

another name wouldn't help but would hurt the popularity of this map. "column tower wars? never heard, never played!"

Robbepop

1.66 is more of an update of the original Line Tower Wars. Rebalancing, added content, but it still contains pretty much everything the old one had. If you were to totally get rid of the terrain and stick people on some random map's terrain, they would still be able to recognize the towers and say "hey, this is Line Tower Wars!"

2.30 is a totally different game, though. The only thing in common is what units you send and the terrain style. The elemental branches are gone, the basic towers branching out to different types as they upgrade is gone; it's a completely different game. There's nothing wrong with that, I like both maps, but this really is a totally different game. If you were to give it a totally different terrain, the towers are significantly different enough that most people would never make the connection between this and Line Tower Wars.

I don't see why "never heard, never played" is an issue. Most people like to try new games, especially when it comes to TD and Tower War sorts of maps. Nobody likes playing the same TD over and over again. So I really don't think a new name would hurt the popularity at all; people would simply try the map, play it, and decide if they like it or not, and play it again if they do. I should know, Tower War maps are what I tend to play the most, and I am constantly searching to find new ones to play. A lot of my friends who also like tower war games are always looking for new ones to play. Giving it a new name wouldn't be a bad thing; people would probably even be more likely to join because "Hey, a new tower war! I've been wanting to play one, and I'm bored of the old ones! Hey, it's called 'Column Tower Wars'! It's probably got something in common with Line Tower Wars, and that was a fun map!" That way you can still attract the same audience, only without being limited by their expectations of the previous map.

Kind of like full games. Diablo 3 wasn't quite as terrible as most people like to think. It's not perfect, either, it certainly needs work, but the biggest reason people hated Diablo 3 was because it wasn't anything like Diablo 2. If they had given it a completely different name so that people didn't come into it expecting it to be a certain way, then it probably would have been received more positively.

The problem right now is that they come into it expecting a completely different game and are often disappointed. As I said before, it's like biting into a cookie to find out it's actually a piece of meat. It might be a really good piece of meat, but if you're expecting a cookie, it's going to seem disgusting and very disappointing. Giving it a new name would get rid of people's expectations and allow them to instead judge the game for what it is, not what it isn't.

 

[Robbepop]

Hiho,

I get what you want to tell me and I really can understand you that this version is really very different from the old ones. However, I am also sure that many many people would ask me why I haven't called this game line tower wars if I did not as it is also too similar to not call it LTW - it is a thing in between.

I also thought about making a completely new game out of it where players have no line-base but a circular-base and have to defend the central point instead of the end of their line. This layout would also lead to new and much more strategic mazes while it would make a rename easily possible without any problems. =)

The downside of this idea is that it would take much time in order to release a working version of this game and to recreate an AI for it ...

Robbepop

 

[Robbepop]

release a new version with many changes and improvements on board - look at the changelog for more information. =)

 

[Nestharus]

just a question, but how strong is the AI in this map? Would it offer me a challenge, or is it kinda noob?

 

[MortAr]

just a question, but how strong is the AI in this map? Would it offer me a challenge, or is it kinda noob?

i bet 100 rep you can't beat the insane

 

[Robbepop]

I'd say that the A.I. is good for dudes to learn to play LTW (there are many people who lose against easy difficulty.^^) But it is definitely NOT perfect ...

Robbepop

 

[InfernalTater]

just a question, but how strong is the AI in this map? Would it offer me a challenge, or is it kinda noob?

I haven't met anyone better than me at LTW yet, and I can assure you that the Insane bots are quite difficult. I do beat them, but only by exploiting their weakness (by not sending any air or attackers until they've built and upgraded their maximum amount of towers so that they have no defense against them).

Btw, Robbepop, I know you thought you improved AI AA, but they still don't make any AA towers if you don't send any air before they finish their towers. That is how I kill them every time. You should put into their script to make at least a couple of anti-air towers no matter what is sent to them, even if left unupgraded, so that they can focus on upgrading them later when somebody sends air.

The same should be done with walls; they should automatically make some walls in the front.

 

[Robbepop]

hiho,

The scripts for the A.I. aren't fit to do updates like these. I think I have to recode the whole thing in order to make better computer oponents. However, these computer oponents are just meant to train for beginners in this game not for pros.^^ Nevertheless, it would be cool if the A.I. would be even more powerful.

I have released a new version. Have fun and merry christmas!
The best features of the new version is the new dynamical gold/wood exchange system which makes endgame much less painful.
Another main feature is the new camera command which let's you freely set the camera distance.

Robbepop

 

[Sharphawkx]

Hey there! I've been following your map for some time now and I must say, it holds true to the very original tower defense maps with an insane twist of you sending creeps. It's really cool and grants lots of fun but, one thing you really should add is teams. Something in the lines of 3v3v3v3 or 6v6 or even 2v2v2v2v2v2!! It would be really cool and then after all the enemies have been destroyed the survivors would fight eachother to see who's the Supreme LTW Player!!

 

[Robbepop]

hiho,

thank you very much for your input!

at the moment I am working on a critical fatal error which occures because of some memory leaks in this LTW map. the major problem ist, that I am aware of issues with memory leaks and that I went through the whole map script several times in order to eliminate even the slightest leak. However, LTW has a gameplay extremely unsimiliar to the normal warcraft III one and thus I am thinking (as a result of many many tests) that these memory leaks are not fixable by a mapper like me unless I am willing to change major parts of the gameplay itself - e.g. I could send only one unit instead of three all the time.

I found out that the high amount of unit spawns and unit deaths is the trigger for these memory leaks as there is always a minimal memory leak for every unit you create which is not so bad if your map does not spawn tousand of tousand of units which is the case for LTW ...

So I was building a customized unit recycling system featured with runtime unit type change and was hoping to fix the problem with this extensive system. However, it turned out that the memory leaks were still there and even worse than before. I am totally clueless about this fact ...

To your points about the team modes:
I was also thinking about introducing new game modes which the host can initially choose and which highly influence the gameplay. Such as team mode or even a timed deathmatch would be possible where all players can play until the end of the game which would be an awesome feature especially for new players.

Robbepop

 

[InfernalTater]

hiho,

thank you very much for your input!

at the moment I am working on a critical fatal error which occures because of some memory leaks in this LTW map. the major problem ist, that I am aware of issues with memory leaks and that I went through the whole map script several times in order to eliminate even the slightest leak. However, LTW has a gameplay extremely unsimiliar to the normal warcraft III one and thus I am thinking (as a result of many many tests) that these memory leaks are not fixable by a mapper like me unless I am willing to change major parts of the gameplay itself - e.g. I could send only one unit instead of three all the time.

I found out that the high amount of unit spawns and unit deaths is the trigger for these memory leaks as there is always a minimal memory leak for every unit you create which is not so bad if your map does not spawn tousand of tousand of units which is the case for LTW ...

So I was building a customized unit recycling system featured with runtime unit type change and was hoping to fix the problem with this extensive system. However, it turned out that the memory leaks were still there and even worse than before. I am totally clueless about this fact ...

To your points about the team modes:
I was also thinking about introducing new game modes which the host can initially choose and which highly influence the gameplay. Such as team mode or even a timed deathmatch would be possible where all players can play until the end of the game which would be an awesome feature especially for new players.

Robbepop

That sounds like fun!

Also, for the unit training system, I've got an idea. What if you created invisible unpathed buildings which could automatically train units behind the scenes with their destinations being at the end of the lane? This way your triggers would only have to order these buildings to train the units, rather than create units and pick those units to give orders; instead you could have these buildings already be registered into an array and ordered to train the units. This would hopefully eliminate the leaks. For it to still maintain the style of LTW, three random buildings in different parts of the beginning of the lane would be ordered to train the units. Instead of "pick unit" for the buildings, you could instead have them all registered into an array, and then pick random numbers from the array in order to determine which buildings will send the units.

It would take a lot of work, but I think that's the only way you'll be able to have 12 players massing 3 units per click without generating an enormous amount of leaks.

 

[Robbepop]

hiho,

the leaks are not about groups and enumerations of unit groups, they are just plainly about units themselves. as I said: every created (and removed) unit leaks a minor memory leak which is permanent - you can't do anything against that ... and this leak is the major problem of this map as there are far too many units in a normal game.

no unit group leak, no special effect leak, no location leak, no non-nullified locals leak etc. ...

Robbepop

 

[Kazeon]

oh my, oh my, I'm having so much fun right now.. Enjoy my rating

 

[Robbepop]

updated this map with version 2.33 and many bug fixes as well as balancings!

edit: updated again a smaller version v2.34 - however this isn't a hotfix version but adds a few cool features and balances some elemental towers.

edit: are fatal errors still happening in version v2.34 (and above)?

 

[Robbepop]

updated the map with v2.35 which features a new elemental tower: War Elemental.

edit: uploaded a hotfix version v2.36 to address an exploit introduced in v2.35.

edit: uploaded a new version v2.37 with many cool new changes and features.

edit: uploaded a new version v2.39 - this is mainly a bug fix version and as far as I can tell a stable release which I am going to upload to ENT as the next auto-hosted version of Line Tower Wars.

 

[Robbepop]

Hiho,

it is me once again in a while.

I am here to propose to make Guilds of Hyppos RPG, Monster Master RPG as well as the newer versions of Line Tower Wars - Evolution open source so that everybody can look into them in detail, edit them and enjoy their own updated versions of these games.

How do you like this idea?

Since I do no longer really have time to maintain my projects I think this is the right decision which can suite everybody. =)

Regards,
Robbepop

 

[IGrobin]

I played your map and found the map inside to prevent the player from the road setting. My own map is also in urgent need of this setting, but I will not do, I hope you can help me, can send a trigger to me? I am a Chinese player! I hope you can reply

 

[Robbepop]

Hello IGrobin,

I am really sorry but I entirely did not understand your question at all.
What is a "road setting"?
What is your "own map?"
What "map inside"?
How can I help you? ^.^

Please provide more information about the details so that I can help you.

Regards,
Robbepop

 

[IGrobin]

thank you for your reply. I have raised my question in the chaosrealm. You can find my thoughts here.

http://chaosrealm.info/topic/30294819/1/#new

 

[Robbepop]

Ah now I understood.
So you need a block-detection system for your map?
The block-detection system in my LTW works very well and is fast but it is also specialized for _Line_ Tower Wars and won't work very well on other setups.
So with my little algorithm you can just detect a tower blockage on a Line or Road if you want to name it that.

The algorithm works as follows:
- Whenever a tower X is about to be built it searches for all neighbouring towers and descends recursively with this and put all those towers into a set S. (This works similar to the connected components analysis with 8-ary neighbourship.)
- The next step is to go through all towers in set S and check if their coordinates cover the left-most and the right-most coordinate of the line.
- If the left- and right-most coordinates are both covered it means the way is blocked, the tower build process is getting stopped and the player receives back its building costs.
- Otherwise, they way won't be blocked by the newly built tower.

This algorithm is pretty easy to implement but depends on some predefined constants or variables in your map that you have to provide yourself.
For example it requires the tower costs of all towers (or your players will be very upset once they block the path) and you need to provide the left-most and right-most coordinates of all player's lines (roads). Also you somehow have to detect on which line the tower was actually built.

Regards,
Robbepop