Is Terran balanced?

[MGCǂSpectre]

What the guy shows on TL positioning mutas in battle is good. However, in a real environment you dont just have thors, so the talk who counters the other how much is needless when in fact you use marines and medivacs apart from thors. Zerg uses banelings to firstly take out your MMM, then when thors remain they finish them with Mutas. My sucky opponents though failed when they didnt attack with mutas at the same time haha.

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

i just played a game againts 3 terrans and i was on mutas. The thors were crushed by my mutas. But then the marines came. they killed off all my mutas one terran was on mass marine medivac and he countered me easily.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

What the TL posts about positioning mutas is also valid for mutas vs marines.

 

[PurplePoot]

Of course Thors counter Mutalisks! Thors do bonus versus light units, and Mutalisks are light units.

This is rather shallow and doesn't reflect reality in many cases.

For example, Banelings are not light and Hellions only do most of their damage against Light. Hellions are Light and Banelings do bonus damage against Light. By your argument, Banelings counter Hellions. However, the reverse is true.

I am a Zerg player and i voted No. I am in Platinum 1v1 and Gold 2v2 with mare. Trust me. Terrans are OP. If i play against a good player, no rush will work, on ANY map. My ZvZ and ZvP are better than ZvT, and i never could beat a pro player. I encountered 5 players from Diamond league, 2 of them being Terran, 1 Zerg and 2 Protoss. I could never beat the Terran. I could barely beat the Zerg and 1-1 Protoss. Terrans seriously need a nerf.

This post is an excellent example of why people are full of shit.

#1: Not being able to rush and win 100% of the time is a sign of balance, not imbalance.

#2: Your anecdote proves nothing. The Terran players could easily have been better than the Protoss or Zerg players (Diamond has a huge skill distribution), or they could have been lucky.

#3: Even if you were totally right and ZvT was impossible for the Zerg to win or whatever, then that would say nothing about TvP and thus Terran as a whole.

What the TL posts about positioning mutas is also valid for mutas vs marines.

How so? It addresses how to negate Thor splash damage. Marines don't have splash.

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

What the TL posts about positioning mutas is also valid for mutas vs marines.

actually if i do that i will get terrible terrible damage to my mutas.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Mariens still deal lots of damage to mutalisks, however marines have low enough health that mutalisks are moderatly effective against them. It all comes down to numbers. You must remember that marines are 1 pop, have stim usually and can be built over 4 per mutalisk (gas is worth more than minerals at times).

All in all its better to attack marines with things like broodlords or ultralisks than mutalisks. Like wise with thors you generally do not want to use ultralisks to get rid of them.

Ofcourse nothing prevents you from doing so if they are poorly positioned or low in numbers. Even mass marines could take down a couple of templars by themselves if that is the onlything in the way between victory.

 

[JimBob]

It actually all comes down to positioning. How you position your troops is usually what will determine whether you win or not.

I've won numerous games with marines a lone. If you spam marines just know that it's not necessarily about building a giant crowd of marines and attacking the enemy. It's about strategy! It's about using the surroundings to your advantage! It's about creating diversions! It's about breaking the marines up into many small groups and sending them all over the place while constantly harassing the enemy base while drawing their main army away! It's about multiple ambushes and raids working simultaneously! It's about surprising your opponent every 10s of the game! It's about keeping those marines coming and getting them into position! It's about issuing multiple commands at once! It's about multy-tasking! It's about overwhelming your enemy with confusion!

It's about taking your enemy by surprise and sometimes the best way to do that is to show them something they've never seen before. To find the most unique and unbelievable strategy's and use it against them. They will never know what hit them. By the time they come to determining what the crap is wrong with you is the time they find themselves completely blown away by what just happened!

Ulysses S. Grant said it best, “The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving on.”

What I said above all comes down to how and where you position your troops and how fast you can do it. It takes a tremendous amount of skill and experience to make it work. Very few have ever mastered this, but it can be done. I am one of the few and this strategy has rarely failed me. I've probably used it about 60 times so far in SC2 battle net and won about 59 of them. I may have lost one or two, but I don't remember and those loses were because I had failed to position some of my troops fast enough.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

How so? It addresses how to negate Thor splash damage. Marines don't have splash.

At first when I read his thread I thought he was showing that in close attack you will hit more targets than if you attack from larger range, as the glavies multi-targets you know. Well, it's clear that you have to separate your units to avoid splash. However, the same could be done about marines, to use this separation to avoid less hits from the same glavies. Basically this can be applied to anything, separating your units like that in TvT/ZvT if you're zerg to avoid a sudden sieged tank hitting all your units.

 

[PurplePoot]

No it can't, because

#1: It's too hard to separate ground units that well.

#2: Thors have way smaller splash than any of the other units you listed.

--

If your enemy loses TvZ to mass marines then they're, uh, retarded.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

In the previous TL thread about zerg being weak and terran imba, there was one good suggestion to make movement formation, so that they dont make a meat ball but keep some order. The more separated they are, the less losses even if other units have bigger splash. But it's true ground cant keep that formation.

 

[mrzwach]

sometimes the best way to do that is to show them something they've never seen before.

All fine and good, but in a competitive environment, which SC2 has at higher levels, there is very little original/unique strategy that is actually effective.

At first when I read his thread I thought he was showing that in close attack you will hit more targets than if you attack from larger range, as the glavies multi-targets you know. Well, it's clear that you have to separate your units to avoid splash. However, the same could be done about marines, to use this separation to avoid less hits from the same glavies. Basically this can be applied to anything, separating your units like that in TvT/ZvT if you're zerg to avoid a sudden sieged tank hitting all your units.

The glaive has significantly more bouncing range than a Thor's splash (0.5 for Thor versus 3.0 for the mutalisk). Furthermore, the reason why it works so well with mutas is because mutas are fast moving and airborne, making repositioning very easy.

 

[lightning brigade]

Oh great, we don't need to spread the crying here.

TvZ is broken (this has nothing to do with Terran and everything to do with Zerg), but only really at the pro levels (doesn't really affect ladder; people just bitch about it because it's better than admitting they got outplayed). TvP is fine.

This is simply not true. In fact, statistics suggest that Terran is the hardest race to play at the lower levels, and at the higher levels the races are even. Protoss is also the most played race by a very large margin.

This is also not true. Terran is actually the most low-tier focused race--their most commonly units are all tier 1 or 2, whereas many of the units that absolutely smash them (High Templar, Ultralisks, Brood Lords, etc) are tier 3. Terran actually only has one tier 3 unit (Battlecruisers), and while they are decent against Protoss (they suck against Zerg, mind you) they are generally too expensive to get in the numbers required to win with them.

And I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about with regards to melee.

The system forces a 50% win ratio, due to this, the more games they win, they will then be put up against higher level players, at that point, they will either win and get a lot of points, or lose and add to that ratio. The thing is, the lowbie terrans often fight experienced terrans. And that's when they lose, but because the more you win, the more chance you have of facing an experienced toss or terran, the more wins a race has as a whole, and the more noobs in that same race, the less wins they'll have at the inevitable 50% mark. Get it? Got it? Good.

 

[PurplePoot]

The system forces a 50% win ratio, due to this, the more games they win, they will then be put up against higher level players, at that point, they will either win and get a lot of points, or lose and add to that ratio. The thing is, the lowbie terrans often fight experienced terrans. And that's when they lose, but because the more you win, the more chance you have of facing an experienced toss or terran, the more wins a race has as a whole, and the more noobs in that same race, the less wins they'll have at the inevitable 50% mark. Get it? Got it? Good.

By this argument we should see too many Terrans at the top and not enough at the bottom. However, we see too many at the bottom.

 

[kola]

hmm... lightning brigade is right. its made to have a 50% win ration.
Also, i checked your link purplepoot, i know there is a lot of noobs terran but its because the first Race new players are trying is the terrans. here is top 100 players.. I counted them, 45 terrans, 32 protoss, 21 zergs, 2 random.

 

[PurplePoot]

And if you check the top 500, 1000, and 2000, the list is Protoss by a huge margin. If you check the top 10, it's fairly varied, and in Korea it's heavily biased towards Zerg (4 zerg when only ~20% of players are Zerg).

You're picking a sample size to support your argument regardless of the fact that every other sample size does not.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

All fine and good, but in a competitive environment, which SC2 has at higher levels, there is very little original/unique strategy that is actually effective.

You are also not someone who plays seriously, hah I cant say im playing seriously but I mean, you dont play to become good and yet you're starting to understand things. There is hope for humanity afterall, after so many no-comment posts i read by others. This has to be rewarded :>

 

[TwistedImage]

The only Terran units I have problems with are marines and siege tanks.

Siege tanks are simply pure and utter bullshit. They are way too cheap for their power - as zerg, there isn't really a good counter before ultralisks, and by the time I get those I'll be torn apart. Stalkers can kill them if they have blink, albeit suffering ridiculous losses. Unsure about terrans. Talking about tanks en masse with units at the front, FYI.

Marines simply deal a tad too high DPS. They just need a really small nerf to their attack speed, and they're good.

 

[StormWarriors2]

The only Terran units I have problems with are marines and siege tanks.

Siege tanks are simply pure and utter bullshit. They are way too cheap for their power - as zerg, there isn't really a good counter before ultralisks, and by the time I get those I'll be torn apart. Stalkers can kill them if they have blink, albeit suffering ridiculous losses. Unsure about terrans. Talking about tanks en masse with units at the front, FYI.

Marines simply deal a tad too high DPS. They just need a really small nerf to their attack speed, and they're good.

Ok Wtf? 125 Gas and Minerals is cheap? What The F^@!
Siegetanks get ripped apart by ultralisks. And Hydralisks. What are you smoking?

 

[TwistedImage]

Hydralisks?

Bahahahaha.

A siege tank deals 50 damage, am I right? It also has a mean splash radius. Assuming the Terran is not completely retarded and has vision of the hydralisks before they are within 6 range, roughly one third of the hydralisks will be dead before even firing once, given proper tank placement. Hydralisks have freakin' 80 health. Now put some marauders in front of the tanks. Well, shit. Hydralisks have to pass marauders to even get at the tanks.

Say we are using 200 supply armies. That's 100 hydralisks. It would be 66 tanks if I'm right, but anyone with a brain knows that siege tanks suck alone. Say 50 siege tanks - that's 150 supply taken. You can now add 25 marauders.

All the hydralisks will be dead before the last marauder falls, given micro skills above low bronze on the terran's part.

Ultralisks, sure. But again, they are tier 3. Zerg will be destroyed by tanks before getting them.

EDIT: 125/125 is not cheap, but considering the ridiculous amount of firepower packed in a tank, yeah, it is cheap.

 

[PurplePoot]

Siege Tanks and Marines are two of the safest, most consistent units in the game. Sort of like Mutalisks, if you will.

Marines need their high DPS since they absolutely cannot absorb damage. Infestors or banelings rip them to shreds like nobody's business, and even units which you might think they are strong against (such as Mutalisks) aren't too bad off due to the Marines' extremely low life.

Siege Tanks, however, have no "cute" counters (as Zerg that is) and basically you just need lots of stuff to deal with them (same as in Brood War). Their major weakness is being caught out of position, especially if they are on creep (and thus your units move at roughly the speed of light), or to flanks (which can be devastating because their life is pathetic). If they're lazy on their Marine or Thor count then mass Mutalisks can clean up (remember, you need about 3 Mutalisks per Thor).

Neither needs a nerf, and Zerg (as well as Protoss and Terran) can address both of them just fine.

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

Marines need their high DPS since they absolutely cannot absorb damage. Infestors or banelings rip them to shreds like nobody's business, and even units which you might think they are strong against (such as Mutalisks) aren't too bad off due to the Marines' extremely low life.

Its normal for marines do die from their hard counters ...

 

[PurplePoot]

Thanks, tips. My point was that there are clear and easy ways to deal with marines that Twisted doesn't seem to realize exist.

 

[TwistedImage]

Banelings don't even reach a huge ball of marines if they have stimpacks, FYI. Unless you have 2:1 of banelings, which kind of defeats their purpose as one baneling costs 50/25.

Yeah, marines are easy to kill, but they still deal a tad too much DPS. An attack speed nerf of ~.03 should probably do.

Also, you really don't need to adress me as if I'm retarded. >_>

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

you do not att with banelings only
first you get a ball of zergligns then a ball of banelings. Or some roaches and banelings.
attack with zergling/roach, then while they tank send the baneling. Also you can try burrowing them or overlord baneling bomb dropping*.

*Overlord baneling bomb dropping is when you have 10 overlords, some of them loaded with banelings, you go above his army and drop a baneling on top of it. Its very epic.

 

[TwistedImage]

Also, you really don't need to adress me as if I'm retarded. >_>

I restate my position.

Terran has micro, banelings are useless. 'Tis a fact.

Not arguing that they get torn apart by ultralisks or infestors, though.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

*Overlord baneling bomb dropping is when you have 10 overlords, some of them loaded with banelings, you go above his army and drop a baneling on top of it. Its very epic.

LOL. And enjoy losing 10 overlords in return, just need a few vikings or even thors that survive banlings. Also exploding too many banelings at 1 point that's stupid.

 

[TwistedImage]

LOL. And enjoy losing 10 overlords in return, just need a few vikings or even thors that survive banlings.

We are talking about marines.

Also I didn't spot that, but yeah, what the fuck?

Sacrifice 1000 minerals plus some more resources' worth of banelings to kill a few marines, with a massive chance to fail entirely? No thank you.

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

you will not lose all overlords, because your overlords would of dropped the banelings after you lost 2-3. and you can counter after he loses his army. ofc i prefer to nydus him when he attacks and he is forced to retreat. by the time his army reaches his base i would of devastated it and i can run back into the nydus.

 

[Zona09]

For OP, it is not overpowered against most players, but if you let them go free and build up their stuffs, you have higher chances of loosing.

 

[Itachi009]

a good terran player will never mass marines without some support (mediacs, tanks...), which makes banelings quite useless unless you borrow them and the enemy got no detector

 

[StormWarriors2]

a good terran player will never mass marines without some support (mediacs, tanks...), which makes banelings quite useless unless you borrow them and the enemy got no detector

Agreed. Terran GOOD terran players are hard to come by. As they are rare and if you find them they usually pwn your ass. like me..... But i have that little part of mercy in me that saves people alot. I need to find a way to get rid of it. Because i take pitty too much on people. And let them live. That's costed me 3 games.

 

[Itachi009]

Agreed. Terran GOOD terran players are hard to come by. As they are rare and if you find them they usually pwn your ass. like me..... But i have that little part of mercy in me that saves people alot. I need to find a way to get rid of it. Because i take pitty too much on people. And let them live. That's costed me 3 games.

thanks... but they are not rare^^ from the best 10 players of the world, 8 are terrans

 

[TwistedImage]

That's like saying good musicians aren't rare because ten out of ten of the most popular musicians in the world are musicians.

 

[Mooglefrooglian]

Hydralisks have no real hard counter beyond siege tanks. Since when do hellions counter them?

 

[Itachi009]

That's like saying good musicians aren't rare because ten out of ten of the most popular musicians in the world are musicians.

nonsense...

 

[TwistedImage]

Banelings, Sir Moogle. Banelings. And colossi.

Whoever claims hellions counter hydralisks is pretty dumb!

Beyond that, bio terrans with medivacs are mean to hydralisks - though I guess that doesn't count as a hard counter. Same goes for all the massive air units.

S'yeah, hydralisks have one hard counter per race; in total, two counters for zerg and protoss, three for terran.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Whoever claims hellions counter hydralisks is pretty dumb!

Like everyone who knows what happens? Hellions are good for lings, hellions get raped by hydras because Hydras have 10x more attack speed and while hellions multi-damage, hydras will destroy many before they even approach, range.

 

[TwistedImage]

Hellions are good against melee.

That is all.

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

Banelings don't even reach a huge ball of marines if they have stimpacks, FYI. Unless you have 2:1 of banelings, which kind of defeats their purpose as one baneling costs 50/25.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzc31EgPlGk&feature=player_embedded
nothing more to say.

 

[PurplePoot]

Not to mention banelings have ridiculous AoE and will kill marines even if they are around 3 range away.

 

[TheNightBringer]

Pros and Cons of all races

I do believe that all races are balanced in this way:
TERRAN
DEFENDING: The best ones
EXPANDING: Fast
ATTACKING: On early games, kinda weak and, in late game devastating attacks.

PROTOSS:
DEFENDING: Regular, thought in late game their defense is heavy
EXPANDING: The slowest of all cause of the resource cost and time.
ATTACKING: Mortal attacks, which would take a huge time to build (not mentioning resource costs).

ZERG:
DEFENDING: They suck at defending, even at late game
EXPANDING: Faster that all races
ATTACKING: Mortal, quick and numerous, most players are doomed at early and mid-game, but this advantage decreases withing late game.

 

[PurplePoot]

Erm, I'd say Protoss has an easier time expanding than Terran does. Might be just me, but Terran really lacks the mobility and warpgates to defend expansions as easily.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

I'd just say I hate protoss on Scrap Station, I dont like playing that map even if it's my 2nd favorite as a look. I cant stop their natural the way this pile near the ramp makes it only 1 entrance to their 2 bases.

 

[TwistedImage]

I do believe that all races are balanced in this way:
TERRAN
DEFENDING: The best ones
EXPANDING: Fast
ATTACKING: On early games, kinda weak and, in late game devastating attacks.

PROTOSS:
DEFENDING: Regular, thought in late game their defense is heavy
EXPANDING: The slowest of all cause of the resource cost and time.
ATTACKING: Mortal attacks, which would take a huge time to build (not mentioning resource costs).

ZERG:
DEFENDING: They suck at defending, even at late game
EXPANDING: Faster that all races
ATTACKING: Mortal, quick and numerous, most players are doomed at early and mid-game, but this advantage decreases withing late game.

Zerg have epic lategame defence. Know why? Larvae. A good zerg player will have lots of spare larvae after getting his 200 supply army. Say 3-4 bases, that's 57-76 larvae. Although zerg do all in all have weaker lategame armies, they can effectively get a full new army out within 70 seconds of the last one dying.

Also, terrans have devastating attacks throughout the game, barring early-early. Marines/marauders with stimpacks are pretty mean. Mid-game, siege tanks are still bloody ridiculous.

Lastly, protoss armies don't take that long to get - lots of warpgates and stargates/robofacs, and it's actually pretty damn fast. Won't argue that it's expensive, tho.

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

zergs can have a powerful late army. broodlords + corruptor. we were losing 3v3 so i went 3 base and got 16 broodslords and 23 corruptors. i devastated their 3 bases alone.

 

[TwistedImage]

Your enemies were terrible.