Is Sylvanas Evil?

[Doomcore]

Full disclaimer, I never said we'd fight the Void Lords, I think we'll fight a fully or semi-fully powered up Old God, (I know War of the Ancients says that if an Old God were to fully step onto Azeroth even Sargeras would be forced to kneel but Blizzard has had a tendancy in Legion to say "FOCK YOU!" to WotA.) I think the lore of the Void Lords will be explored further, at least to some extent and start us on a journey to prepare for the fight against the Void Lords, but do I think we'll actually fight a Void Lord? No.

I agree with what you said. But I noticed void lords do not still reveal themselves, so we can move out of their grasps for now. We'll deal with them maybe in some years to pass. That would look like the fifth old god, it is been predicted by Velen that Azeroth is already dead by some point of time, that means that old god seeped a lot of essence of the sleeping world soul. Pointing to me that Sargeras is the last titan, that is why Amanthul decides to imprison him than kill him on 7.3 ending.

Me too, only Malygos and Neltharion could kill Galakrond and they're not exactly present sadly. (Why did they kill of my favourite character? (Malygos))

Sad to hear about that. I think Galakrond is a super awesome dragon like Grond. Though we still have Alexztra... I can't spell her so difficult to spell name lol. to be only hope because that bronze dragon Nozdormu will be insane soon. I wish we see a good Neltharion one day or just time-revived complete aspects just to aid us in our battle.

I love your speculation but here's a fact, Ny'alotha HAS to be on the other half of Azeroth, it's impossible for it not to be located there, Ny'alotha is a city from the times of the Black Empire and it is located under water. That means that it has to have been located under water prior to the Sundering, otherwise the people of Elun'dris (or Zin-Azshari as it was later named) would have run into it.

Maybe Nya'lotha is just a fractional part of un-discovered Black Empire regions. Maybe it is referred to N'zoth's dwelling. I agree with you. What if it was like Pirates of the Caribbean, you have to reverse the water just to see a celestial body or a region of a new realm? I remember that was from POTC 3 or 4. YOu know blizzard, most of their story and characters are based off many popular media.

Hmm... the Nya'lotha thing is far too cloudy and mysterious to speculate. Yeah, I agree, the Elun'dris, maybe they were scared to go to the back half?

is it possible for Ny'alotha to have been located on the eastern parts?

It could be pushed or rearranged, yes, somewhere far from our current map. I agree, who could move N'zoth if whoever gets close to an old god goes insane or even dies? That could be a powerful 'hostile' force.

N'Zoth's capital is located under water,

Uldaman would have to be the home to a gigantic under earth lake

It looks like, when you connect the lines, N'zoth's really I agree to be more watery and deep sea old god. So pointing to Uldaman, there is one more old god for sure lurking there not Yoggie, not even Cthun, and it is possible that something not N'zoth (what most of us believe in) that corrupted Deathwing.

Troll

We still do not know who created trolls yet, they cannot be from a titan because they weren't stones. And I don't know what does that useless king of trolls, Rastakhan to be doing for the rest of his life in a lonely island of trolls LoL

A few questions regarding that, what has that Old God been doing all this time? Why has it allowed, C'Thun to almost destroy Azeroth twice, Yogg-Saron once and N'Zoth twice, it does realize that if any of those Old Gods were going to break loose that Old God would try to slay all the others, right? Why has it never struck even though Azeroth on multiple occasions have been close to annihilation, the aftermath of the War of the Ancients is a brilliant example, the mortal kingdoms had fallen and the dragons had been close to decimated to the point that they would never recover from their losses. Why not attack then, or any other time in fact?

Maybe that unknown never-stricken old god might be wanting Sargeras to successfully win, as he seeps from the powers of the world soul of Azeroth, he might have been waiting for Sargeras to take over the world and use him as a host or corrupt him instead, becoming a full-puppet and servant of the void lords. That could be. Or this one might be hanging and chilling its presence for a long time, feeding on world's souls blood so it becomes powered up old god as you earlier said.

Also assuming that this Old God had the power to make not only all traces of its empire disappear how did it succeed in getting all other residents forget that it existed. The other Old Gods would have a long history of fighting this Old God, the elementals would remember it. Are the Titans really that incompetent that they'd put 0% research into the planet? Don't get me wrong C'Thun managed to trick them that it was dead so clearly the Old Gods are smarter than the Titans but it still seems like a big "if" that this Old God could manage to make all traces of history dissapear.

Yeah, they could really be so clever. Maybe titans are good in power and stregth but old gods are for deceit and trickery. Maybe this old god might have been an old god of oblivion that does not only turn beings insane but even forget their everything. If a single dragon aspect can turn play ontime like Nozdormu, maybe this old god can, but no time but memories, and power of erasing. So this might send us again in timelines, differently. Potentially, this could be the worst old god if it existed.

Furthermore you cite "the three" reference that the Aspects make as the main bulk of proof for this Old God existing, but the issue with that is that if no one knew of this Old God, how could that "the three" statement apply? Or maybe you're citing the WarCraft three manual which cite that five Old Gods are imprisoned beneath the earth but then you make the assumption that it (the fifth Old God) is not in fact imprisoned at all. So you're going against the two statements you have mentioning the existence of a fifth Old God which kind of renders this theory illogical.

It could be a plot of the old gods that this one is imprisoned, that these old gods know they will be defeated in the battle with titans, so they reserved the most powerful one. And this prison might not be a true prison but only a lair that this one dwells in. That is what I think and not going against, sorry I didn't mention to be not a prison but... an enclosed lair for living, not for confinement and seclusion.

I'd really appreaciate to see a source for this, where in the Argus patch was this mentioned?

that Khadgar's riddle-like speech. And who is tricking Magni? Can't be N'zoth, he's water. Can't be Cthun. Can't be Yoggs, he's on icelands.

No, no, no, N'Zoth was the weakest, at least if you believe Xal'atath, although I did speculate that Xal'atath was actually Yogg-Saron so it would be fair to say that Xal'atath has some bias against N'Zoth as Yogg-Saron shared a border with the other Old God and presumably fought many battles against it.

N'zoth really fought with YOggs and Cthun, didn't he? I think I read that part of a lore that they rallied his octopus men against the forces of the two. I don't even know why N'zoth was the weakest but first to be imprisoned, or maybe because he was weak to be imprisoned easily? Rather.
I don't really get Xal'athath she is some kind of mystical to me, and who the hell is 'she' that she is refering to? And that she was like speaking thankful about a mortal one who let them free again.

Yea, if Hakkar is to be explored I'd rather have that be through the archeology profession, would be cool to explore the lore with all four secondary professions.

Haha Lol I didn't like Hakkar, so he has to be dead forever

 

[Razosh]

Sorry it took so long to respond, I was not informed about this post.

Sad to hear about that. I think Galakrond is a super awesome dragon like Grond. Though we still have Alexztra... I can't spell her so difficult to spell name lol. to be only hope because that bronze dragon Nozdormu will be insane soon. I wish we see a good Neltharion one day or just time-revived complete aspects just to aid us in our battle.

If you want any insight into what a nice Neltharion was like and/or how he was perceived by the others you can read War of the Ancients or Dawn of the Aspects. In-game however there's little we get.

Hmm... the Nya'lotha thing is far too cloudy and mysterious to speculate. Yeah, I agree, the Elun'dris, maybe they were scared to go to the back half

It's not so much that as it is that anyone who has ever attempted to sail east of the Eastern Kingdom has never returned. I don't know if the kal'dorei empire at its peak or the troll empire at their peaks ever attempted to sail that direction but no human has ever returned to tell the tale. In fact, naval battle is never even mentioned in WotA so it may have been that they never even had ships.

It could be pushed or rearranged, yes, somewhere far from our current map. I agree, who could move N'zoth if whoever gets close to an old god goes insane or even dies? That could be a powerful 'hostile' force.

One question there, look at the two maps I posted above the night elf empire and the black empire, we can determine that no huge section was cut off so if that part was moved off it must have happened during or after the sundering which is a huge problem because the trolls lived there:

This would have been located either in the Amani or Gurubashi empire, which both remain so how have we not heard of this if they lived in an Old God city those empires must have also worshiped N'Zoth otherwise it would never have allowed them to stay so why then do they now and did they then worship the Loa?

It looks like, when you connect the lines, N'zoth's really I agree to be more watery and deep sea old god. So pointing to Uldaman, there is one more old god for sure lurking there not Yoggie, not even Cthun, and it is possible that something not N'zoth (what most of us believe in) that corrupted Deathwing

Ok, then explain to me exactly where on this map that 5th Old God may be found?

And if your answer is, "it may have been defeated by another Old God and imprisoned", that's not how they roll, Xal'Atath gives us a good explanation for what happens, "It is ironic that the weakest of us may be the ultimate victor. C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, Y'Shaarj, and... well. Only one would remain to consume the world, that was always meant to be." They do not take prisoners.

We still do not know who created trolls yet, they cannot be from a titan because they weren't stones. And I don't know what does that useless king of trolls, Rastakhan to be doing for the rest of his life in a lonely island of trolls LoL

Not that we know so the answer is most likely not. I would not disregard the possibility. But assuming it's not the Titabs the only other individuals we know to have created life is the elementals, but they forged their creations out of stone, that was how the first ever proto-proto-dragons were forged (weird name, I know but the stone drakes found in Deepholm are the predecessors to the proto-drakes.) The question is then, if not the Titans who would have created the trolls, only one option remain, the Old Gods, which I'd say is the most likely scenario.

Yeah, they could really be so clever. Maybe titans are good in power and stregth but old gods are for deceit and trickery. Maybe this old god might have been an old god of oblivion that does not only turn beings insane but even forget their everything. If a single dragon aspect can turn play ontime like Nozdormu, maybe this old god can, but no time but memories, and power of erasing. So this might send us again in timelines, differently. Potentially, this could be the worst old god if it existed.

If this God existed why simply not travel into the future back when it was all powered up strike out the planet in an instant and take everything for itself. For Nozdormu it's a next to impossible task to keep time intact, and an all knowing Old God would certainly make it impossible. Nozdormu has the power to predict the future, as does Murozond so how could this beast of an Old God which apparently is smart enough to fool all existing life that it never existed nor did its empire and yet somehow fail at outsmarting a dragon with a power base laughable in comparison to that of an Old God.

It could be a plot of the old gods that this one is imprisoned, that these old gods know they will be defeated in the battle with titans, so they reserved the most powerful one.

That would be Y'Shaarj, as clearly stated in in WarCraft Chronicles, also when talking about the Chronicles they deliberately state that the Titans encountered four Old Gods, not five.

And this prison might not be a true prison but only a lair that this one dwells in.

If it wasn't a true prison then it would have been at full power long ago and just rolled over any mortal in its way. Because C'Thun, N'Zoth and Yogg-Saron have all recovered faster than the Old God you're referencing, even though it's not really in a prison.

N'zoth really fought with YOggs and Cthun, didn't he?

"Didn't it" and against C'Thun definitely as they shared a border, against C'Thun, maybe, maybe not. If you look at the map the two did not border one another, at least not during the time the map was drawn.

I think I read that part of a lore that they rallied his octopus men against the forces of the two. I don't even know why N'zoth was the weakest but first to be imprisoned, or maybe because he was weak to be imprisoned easily? Rather.

Possibly, we don't know, maybe it was just the prime focus, maybe it just fell as it was the weakest.

I don't really get Xal'athath she is some kind of mystical to me,

Xal'Atath is a dagger forged out of the claw of an Old God, who it would be is up for debate although my money's on Yogg-Saron. Xal'atath was used during the days of the Black Empire and seems to have been playing parts in history afterwards, affecting Azeroth. If you want a perfect example of how it operates and its mentality, here's a quote, "Xavius' tricks are cunning. Why reveal yourself when you can control from afar?"

and who the hell is 'she' that she is refering to? And that she was like speaking thankful about a mortal one who let them free again.

Here's a list, telling you who she's talking about: Xal'atath, Blade of the Black Empire

I do not know what quote you're referencing, could you please post it. The only quote resembling the one you made that I found was that the Naga stored Xal'Atath under water for a long period of time.

 

[Doomcore]

If you want any insight into what a nice Neltharion was like and/or how he was perceived by the others you can read War of the Ancients or Dawn of the Aspects. In-game however there's little we get.

Was he really nice? Don't see much reasons why he was underneath the earth bedsheets and hammered by some dwarves (I think, saw that from Cata trailer)

The question is then, if not the Titans who would have created the trolls, only one option remain, the Old Gods, which I'd say is the most likely scenario.

Pretty intriguing if old gods really made the trolls as stemmed to become night elves and elves. That elves came from old gods or maybe, just maybe, trolls were affected by the curse of the flesh and once stone trolls (like LoTR) LoL. Hmmmm... it could mean that old gods gave flesh and emotions to feel to the stoneforged.

If this God existed why simply not travel into the future back when it was all powered up strike out the planet in an instant and take everything for itself. For Nozdormu it's a next to impossible task to keep time intact, and an all knowing Old God would certainly make it impossible. Nozdormu has the power to predict the future, as does Murozond so how could this beast of an Old God which apparently is smart enough to fool all existing life that it never existed nor did its empire and yet somehow fail at outsmarting a dragon with a power base laughable in comparison to that of an Old God.

Hmmm that diverted me to agree, Noz was really the most powerful in the 5 D-A's. Saw that "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle.", how about that old god might have outsmarted a dragon. It could be that super old god is against the other old gods that he waits for us to really worn out ourselves with the battles and then that is how he could consume, because he wants to be the only old god for the world eh? I think there is more possibilities that stronger old gods exist somewhere out there in the many planets but at least one more hidden in Azeroth. Never knew how powerful that was an old god who corrupted a dragon aspect Neltharion.

That would be Y'Shaarj, as clearly stated in in WarCraft Chronicles, also when talking about the Chronicles they deliberately state that the Titans encountered four Old Gods, not five.

That is factual. Maybe we would fight a resurrected Y'shaarj in the future?

If it wasn't a true prison then it would have been at full power long ago and just rolled over any mortal in its way. Because C'Thun, N'Zoth and Yogg-Saron have all recovered faster than the Old God you're referencing, even though it's not really in a prison.

Maybe that one is so greedy that he likes to sleep and seep the blood of the sleeping world soul of Azeroth, deciding not to wake up but only for a right moment. So long it does, so long it grows larger beneath the back half. I don't know where's that N'zoth.

Possibly, we don't know, maybe it was just the prime focus, maybe it just fell as it was the weakest.

N'zoth was weakest but this 8.0 he might be returning as the last boss. We could also fight C'thun in Silithus but only a body part again and must be stopped again then leads us to the very beginning of 8.0 at Kultiras. How awesome !

Xal'Atath is a dagger forged out of the claw of an Old God, who it would be is up for debate although my money's on Yogg-Saron. Xal'atath was used during the days of the Black Empire and seems to have been playing parts in history afterwards, affecting Azeroth. If you want a perfect example of how it operates and its mentality, here's a quote, "Xavius' tricks are cunning. Why reveal yourself when you can control from afar?"

Sounds like similar to Lich king's remotely controlling the sword from him. As Yoggie has his dagger too to us. I don't know that she speaks of referring to Sylvanas or Alleria, if you had read her datamined dialogue.

as ..Here is one she refers from this source.
Xalatath Blade of the Black Empire: Long have we sought entry to this realm! To think we have a mortal to thank for giving us our foothold. Your service will be remembered!

 

[Razosh]

Was he really nice? Don't see much reasons why he was underneath the earth bedsheets and hammered by some dwarves (I think, saw that from Cata trailer)

Goblins actually, and yes, although he's still pretending to be Neltharion until the end of the 2nd book so for the majority of the books we actually see how Neltharion acted around the other aspects and how they acted around him.

Pretty intriguing if old gods really made the trolls as stemmed to become night elves and elves. That elves came from old gods or maybe, just maybe, trolls were affected by the curse of the flesh and once stone trolls (like LoTR) LoL. Hmmmm... it could mean that old gods gave flesh and emotions to feel to the stoneforged.

Possibly, since they were made prior to the arrival of the Titans it would explain why no stone trolls are present, the same could also be said for goblins of course.

Hmmm that diverted me to agree, Noz was really the most powerful in the 5 D-A's. Saw that "They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle.", how about that old god might have outsmarted a dragon. It could be that super old god is against the other old gods that he waits for us to really worn out ourselves with the battles and then that is how he could consume,

Ehmm, then why not strike during the aftermath of the War of the Ancients, when no empire existed to refuse it and the dragonflights were a mere shadow of their former glory. And why not now, in this instant when we're all on Argus and the humans and Forsaken are too busy fighting one another with what men remain of theirs.

because he wants to be the only old god for the world eh? I think there is more possibilities that stronger old gods exist somewhere out there in the many planets

That's undoubtedly true.

but at least one more hidden in Azeroth. Never knew how powerful that was an old god who corrupted a dragon aspect Neltharion.

As Xal'Atath said, "He was the most powerful, yet the easiest one for us to corrupt." Which leads me to believe that although he was the mightiest he was ot the most mentally stable, based on descriptions, prior to the War of the Ancients, that would be either Malygos or Alexstrasza.

That is factual. Maybe we would fight a resurrected Y'shaarj in the future?

That's a cool idea, although I fear only possible if we were to fight the Void Lords. Can't imagine any other power either able or willing to resurrect Y'Shaarj.

as ..Here is one she refers from this source.
Xalatath Blade of the Black Empire: Long have we sought entry to this realm! To think we have a mortal to thank for giving us our foothold. Your service will be remembered!

Well, that's easy, it is speaking of the player, the shadow priest who wields Xal'Atath.

 

[RollBoat]

what a sily question.Is Sergeras evil?Is Illidan evil?Is Arthas evil?Is Ji firepaw evil?Is Bolvar evil?Is Garrosh Evil?Is Kael evil?is ALLERIA EVIL? or all that they did was for the better of their people?you get tha point!

 

[Razosh]

what a sily question.Is Sergeras evil?Is Illidan evil?Is Arthas evil?Is Ji firepaw evil?Is Bolvar evil?Is Garrosh Evil?Is Kael evil?is ALLERIA EVIL? or all that they did was for the better of their people?you get tha point!

It is a complex question, if I've ever seen one. The definition of evil to begin with is not a constant and hence there is no right or wrong answer there are only interpretations. And sparking a debate between Alliance and Horde members results in great conversations, that is the point of this thread and it succeeded very well. I don't think any quote reflects better how two different viewpoints can clash than this:

As for the situation with the Horde, again, you see them as an equal to the Alliance. They are still invaders in Azeroth they are the agressors and every beating they get is what they deserve.

 

[RollBoat]

sorry but i dont see the humans and dwarves as the good people nor Azerothian orcs,Even the night elves did some bad things likeTyrande releasing illidan which results in felwood staying still infected by the fel,and not to mention Azshara.Hah you are so funny ,humans and dwarf are the actual invader since they were not the first natives to populate the globe.Trolls were the first natives,and they were the rightfull owners of Azeroth,and the the Titans came with their dead material creations like earthen and iron vrykuls,who destroyed the native cultures.Hah the Alliance the good guys?HAHAH,thats why they invaded Dreanor becouse they were the victims,dont make laugh.What about the native Mag'har are they still their enemies for being orc!What about the narcissistic mages of Dalaran,notables like Kel'Thuzad,or the egomaniac King Terenas which people got slaughtered because of his pride,and his son Arthas,Also lets not forget the trollslayers of Arathor,and the Syndicate of Alterac who partly destroyed the humanity of the north,oh yeah and Scarlet crusade (oh man they are so not evil since they are the natives)pff yeah right,don't make me continue!Lets put it this way if we put Sylvanas on a scale of evil she will be on the first positions,she is not the most evil but she is definitely on the evil side!Hey don't get me wrong i love Sylvanas's character!

 

[Razosh]

sorry but i dont see the humans and dwarves as the good people nor Azerothian orcs,Even the night elves did some bad things likeTyrande releasing illidan which results in felwood staying still infected by the fel,and not to mention Azshara.Hah you are so funny ,humans and dwarf are the actual invader since they were not the first natives to populate the globe.Trolls were the first natives,and they were the rightfull owners of Azeroth

Technically speaking the first invaders were the Old Gods and prior to them... well we just don't know who existed, probably just elements in the beggining so technicaly, Ragnaros is the protagonist? No not really. Also I think you got it a bit wrong, I did not say that the Horde was evil, that was all Imperator.

,and the the Titans came with their dead material creations like earthen and iron vrykuls,who destroyed the native cultures.Hah the Alliance the good guys?HAHAH,thats why they invaded Dreanor becouse they were the victims,dont make laugh.What about the native Mag'har are they still their enemies for being orc!What about the narcissistic mages of Dalaran,notables like Kel'Thuzad,or the egomaniac King Terenas which people got slaughtered because of his pride,and his son Arthas,Also lets not forget the trollslayers of Arathor,and the Syndicate of Alterac who partly destroyed the humanity of the north,oh yeah and Scarlet crusade (oh man they are so not evil since they are the natives)pff yeah right,don't make me continue!Lets put it this way if we put Sylvanas on a scale of evil she will be on the first positions,she is not the most evil but she is definitely on the evil side!Hey don't get me wrong i love Sylvanas's character!

I don't know if she's one of the moral super powers in WoW but she certainly isn't evil or anything near it, as far as I'm concerned at least.

 

[RollBoat]

well you didn't answer me why she is not evil but arthas is?Hey i love evil characters please don't take Sylvanas away.
And i didn't say that there is good side on Azeroth,i think its plain evil place to live in and the only scale for moral direction is evil,and on a scale of evil she is on the 50 % of evilness in the world!Now do you understand me?I'm starting to think that we both have different understanding of evil?

Also I think you got it a bit wrong, I did not say that the Horde was evil, that was all Imperator.

yes you did,but you will never agree with my point,so do i with yours!

I don't know if she's one of the moral super powers in WoW but she certainly isn't evil or anything near it, as far as I'm concerned at least.

Don't use words like "moral,super and power" unless you can "interpret them".

It is a complex question, if I've ever seen one. The definition of evil to begin with is not a constant and hence there is no right or wrong answer there are only interpretations.

Hey dont get me wrong im not a bully i'm just concerned with you conflicting of words and facts,Ragnaros was forced to fight ,he did it because he wanted to protect his foothold on Azeroth.We were recently informed that the Void Lords were number one major manipulative faction ,so who know you might be right about Sylvanas,she might be inocent after all,probably and Arthas was manipulated to kill her,who know,who knows,probably Ner'Zhul and the Burning Legion were manipulated as well?Its a chain reaction of events that lead to the uniqueness of a character,thats why im so sceptical towards your views!

 

[Razosh]

well you didn't answer me why she is not evil but arthas is?

Sorry, hmm whether Arthas is evil or not is a difficult question, the Arthas we saw after grabbing Frostmourne was certainly evil but prior to that I don't think he was, maybe driven mad by vengeance however. If you want to know what I think the difference is between Sylvanas and the Lich King (Arthas after he put on his fancy tiara.) I could name some, Sylvanas allows the people she raise to retain free will, something Arthas does not. He makes people prisoners in their own body, forcing them to experience everything they do without being able to move a muscle, forcing them to witness while they are forced to kill the people they care for. Sylvanas has to our knowledge never done that.

What Sylvanas grants people is a opportunity to get a second chance at life, I do not blame her for resurrecting anyone as we see several times in-game, this is a opportunity rather than a curse, unless you want it to be a curse. That however does not mean that I do not disagree with other decisions she has made, if you look at the first post of this thread you'll see me list them.

Hey i love evil characters please don't take Sylvanas away.
And i didn't say that there is good side on Azeroth,i think its plain evil place to live in and the only scale for moral direction is evil,and on a scale of evil she is on the 50 % of evilness in the world!Now do you understand me?

Yes a lot better, thanks. And I would agree she's somewhere around that 50% mark, I believe I've said before on this thread that she constantly seems to be standing on the edge of a knife, always seeming to be about to fall in one direction, but I just don't know which one yet. I don't really see her as a villain, rather an anti-hero, someone who fights on the right side, but not always with the right motivation or using the right means. She reminds me of Illidan in that way, but with a good story.

I'm starting to think that we both have different understanding of evil?

That feels more like a statement than a question.

Don't use words like "moral,super and power" unless you can "interpret them".

Ok then, I don't think that Sylvanas has the right to claim any high-ground over anyone else as she many times seems to have at least a semi-self serving agenda. While protecting her people is one of the things that certainly are on her mind sometimes it seems to be a second priority for her. I hope that's not too vague?

Hey dont get me wrong im not a bully i'm just concerned with you conflicting of words and facts,Ragnaros was forced to fight ,he did it because he wanted to protect his foothold on Azeroth.We were recently informed that the Void Lords were number one major manipulative faction ,so who know you might be right about Sylvanas,she might be inocent after all,probably and Arthas was manipulated to kill her,who know,who knows,probably Ner'Zhul and the Burning Legion were manipulated as well?Its a chain reaction of events that lead to the uniqueness of a character,thats why im so sceptical towards your views!

Nozdormu famously said that ever evil that had ever befallen the world could be traced back to the Old Gods.

 

[RollBoat]

That feels more like a statement than a question.

Actually by putting question mark i was asking you about your view of evil but that's probably off-topic!

Ok then, I don't think that Sylvanas has the right to claim any high-ground over anyone else as she many times seems to have at least a semi-self serving agenda. While protecting her people is one of the things that certainly are on her mind sometimes it seems to be a second priority for her. I hope that's not too vague?

no there is nothing good in that,sorry,but bringing back undead using.....................ah the irony Arthas's old minions,the Val'kyr.Using the Val'kyr,is like Arthas wielding the frostmourne,and do you realize that she and the forsaken are spawns of the Scourge,why don't they do something good and end their miserable lives oh and dont bring me the "They will otherwise be tormented by the Void Lords"or "Forsaken lives matter".Why not "Scourge lives matter"?I dont see any troll forsaken or orc forsaken or tauren,dwarf,elf,etc,and please don't bring me the earth mother,father,sister,brother,aunt or saint voodoo or royal death knight rhetorics either,because i'm not buying it,because it's strange how only titan creations can go full undead zombie!Ok yes Sylvanas is an High elf but still,my point is what good are they for us ,killing humans and resurrecting them as undead,yeah seems bloody alright to me,nothing wrong with that,neither with the chemicals that they use to spread their plague,which plague is more purer than the scourgie one!Yeah and the forsaken abominations are known for their hospitality with guests!Have you ever heard of Hillsbrad playgrounds,i heard it's the most fun place for little human children(only)!
Yeah the forsaken are nice,and if they weren't,Sylvanas probably had nothing to do with it!What were i thinking those filthy humans destroy everything with their presence,vote for forsaken if you feel that way too(forsaken campaign 2017,make azeroth dead again,i mean great)

 

[Razosh]

Actually by putting question mark i was asking you about your view of evil but that's probably off-topic!



no there is nothing good in that,sorry,but bringing back undead using.....................ah the irony Arthas's old minions,the Val'kyr.Using the Val'kyr,

So the argument is that because she is using the val'kyrs she's comparable to Arthas? A few key distinctions there, first, they joined her willingly and continue to serve her out of their own free will, in fact they convinced Sylvanas to take them in. Second the val'kyrs are not resurrecting mindless husks under Sylvanas, just look at Lillian Voss as a prime example. But lets use your argument, because she uses an instrument of the Lich King she is comparable to him, that means, since the priest order hall uses Xal'atath the blade of an Old God the order is therefore comparable to Yogg-Saron?

is like Arthas wielding the frostmourne,and do you realize that she and the forsaken are spawns of the Scourge,why don't they do something good and end their miserable lives oh and dont bring me the "They will otherwise be tormented by the Void Lords"or "Forsaken lives matter".Why not "Scourge lives matter"?I dont see any troll forsaken or orc forsaken or tauren,dwarf,elf,etc,and please don't bring me the earth mother,father,sister,brother,aunt or saint voodoo or royal death knight rhetorics either,because i'm not buying it,because it's strange how only titan creations can go full undead zombie!

Non-titan structures can be raised by the Lich King as every race is able to become Death Knights (aside from Pandarens who weren't part of Azeroth during WotLK.) Humans are just the most prevalent race as Arthas did the majority of his skirmishes in Eastern Kingdoms which contained a rather small amount of Tauren.

Why do they not end their "miserable lives" as you called it, in the case of Sylvanas it is a fear of the Void Lords, but it's hard to pin down the reasoning behind any specific member of the Forsaken, other than Sylvanas we only have a look into the mindset of Lillian Voss and she did contemplate suicide but she didn't go forth with it as there are still things she wants to accomplish in life, and she can only do that as an undead.

And if you question whether or not their "miserable lives" has any meaning, don't take it from me take it from Blizzard "Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails." That is not a opinion that's a fact.

Ok yes Sylvanas is an High elf

Far from just her, the Dark Rangers are all high elves.

but still,my point is what good are they for us ,killing humans and resurrecting them as undead,yeah seems bloody alright to me,

And your argument is what exactly, Sylvanas shouldn't kill, in a defensive war? (With that said the Horde is not without its blame and the invasion of Gilneas is a bit strange to be honest.) Or is it the resurrection itself you are opposed to, why is this such a taboo, no one ever seems pissed at Terenas for doing the same thing during the Lich King Raid or the Spirit Healers.

nothing wrong with that,neither with the chemicals that they use to spread their plague,which plague is more purer than the scourgie one!

I agree any weapon used on a civilian population like Gilneas is not a good weapon-

Yeah and the forsaken abominations are known for their hospitality with guests!

And those were created by Sylvanas? I recall that being the work of the Lich King.

Have you ever heard of Hillsbrad playgrounds,i heard it's the most fun place for little human children(only)!

You mean the Plants vs Zombies easter egg? I doubt Blizzard ever thought about the lore implications of that one.

Yeah the forsaken are nice,

You seem to be confusing nice with not evil, the two are not the same, we all exist on a scale, life's not always black and white.

and if they weren't,Sylvanas probably had nothing to do with it!What were i thinking those filthy humans destroy everything with their presence,vote for forsaken if you feel that way too(forsaken campaign 2017,make azeroth dead again,i mean great)

Ehm, what? Humans don't destroy everything, nor are they evil, but they are also not always better than Sylvanas. I need to be able to critique the actions of lets say Garithos or Varian without implying that their entire race is abysmal. I have criticized Sylvanas and the Forsaken multiple times in this thread alone, that does also not demand I believe them to be evil. I can criticize Bernie Sanders and Barack Obama as well, I still think they are two of the finest American politicians alive.

 

[RollBoat]

And if you question whether or not their "miserable lives" has any meaning, don't take it from me take it from Blizzard "Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails." That is not a opinion that's a fact.

ok where does this fact state that their free will stops them from doing so!

And your argument is what exactly, Sylvanas shouldn't kill, in a defensive war? (With that said the Horde is not without its blame and the invasion of Gilneas is a bit strange to be honest.) Or is it the resurrection itself you are opposed to, why is this such a taboo, no one ever seems pissed at Terenas for doing the same thing during the Lich King Raid or the Spirit Healers.

And your argument is ,about all the innocent non alliance unarmed villagers of Hillsbrad Foothills and the attacking behind the huge thick walls with strictly closed gates ingonorat of the forsaken but still very hostile and aggressive still ignorant of what's going on in the freaking world but still attacking Gilneans and Worgen?Man i didn't know that Gilneans were so into Civil wars and doing major wars(without them even realizing that there is a FREAKING WAR) at the same time,why is it such a Taboo to talk about it?
Thats like saying lets attack the sleeping druids because their ignorance is aggressive towards us!

So the argument is that because she is using the val'kyrs she's comparable to Arthas? A few key distinctions there, first, they joined her willingly and continue to serve her out of their own free will, in fact they convinced Sylvanas to take them in. Second the val'kyrs are not resurrecting mindless husks under Sylvanas, just look at Lillian Voss as a prime example. But lets use your argument, because she uses an instrument of the Lich King she is comparable to him, that means, since the priest order hall uses Xal'atath the blade of an Old God the order is therefore comparable to Yogg-Saron?

Yes that's my argument,i'm starting to think that you are not getting my point,you say that everyone is on one scale but you ask silly questions like is Sylvanas evil?Why would you ask such a question ,oh i get it to heighten up your ego for knowing lore facts that will change in the future!
Sorry buddy but there is no good in my mindset only evil!
So yeah thats my argument,yeah she's on the same level as Arthas,she used to kill Trolls for pleasure now she must suffer!What did the troll did bad oh but its a taboo to talk about them"THEY ARE EVIL ,PERIOD",yeah right......So are the Night Elves since they came from Trolls,oh wait but so did Sylvanas,ahh you see the irony!
And where does it say that priest are light,holy based only?Yes they are evil,some are with Yogg'Saron, whats your point mate ,i told you already i dont see good,i see only evil in the Warcraft Universe,i think you got little bit confused,i never said that i supported any character or unequally distributed them on a scale of evil or good ,i'm trying to tell you that characters that you qualify as evil are on the same level as Sylvanas!Everyone suffers equally for their mistakes!

Sorry but i think i'm arguing with an fanboy here,are you?

And another question do YOU think that Sylvanas is evil?yes or no.

You seem to be confusing nice with not evil, the two are not the same, we all exist on a scale, life's not always black and white.

you seems to confuse sarcasm with literal statement,ah but thats not the point,i think we have the same agenda but we speak in different languages,thats what im trying to say,that even the dwarfs can be blamed for the sloughtering of their own,but being a dwarf and being part of the Alliance doesn't mean that you are good,nor being forsaken means bad,and when i said that the forsaken must end their lives,by saying so i didn't mean to tham to commit mass suicide but ,to stop bringing back uncontrollable corpses back to life,this statement has nothing to do with good or bad,its just my opinion,and i dont give two bucks about blizzard lore anymore,because they always change their facts,everything is possible!By the way i hope we see more of her in the next expac!

Some factz :

Shadow priestz,have nothing to do with shadow or void,they are the most holy thing you can think of

The Light in which many priests bathe is brilliant and effervescent, granting them immense divine power. But the brightest light casts the darkest shadow—and from within this blackness, a rival power dwells. Shadow priests fully embrace this opposing polarity, their faith equally resolute as their holy counterparts—but focused on shadowy magics and mental manipulation. Like all priests, they dedicate much of their lives to worship—but they derive their power from the Void, straying dangerously close to the domain of the Old Gods. To truly understand such ancient, corruptive influence is to be driven mad. This is the state in which these dark priests thrive, embracing insanity and feeding off of the minds of their opponents to reach terrifying new limits.

Abominations are love Abominations are life,and forsaken have nothing to do with it ,yep true story

the Forsaken abominations are made in the Apothecarium of the Undercity and are possibly composed of the parts of humans that are in the captivity of the Forsaken. COOL DUDE

Absurd fact but still a fact.How can you find someone as a threat,when he isnt even killing your people,it says war between men and worgen,how did the forsaken found this as a threat i cannot tell, bullcrap i say!You win this time!

Unbeknownst to many of the kingdom's citizens, a war between beast and man raged within the worgen themselves. To compound the worgen threat, the Forsaken started battering at the nation's gates in a bid to conquer Gilneas.

Yes i finally found something good that Sylvanas wanted to do,she's such a sweetheart,helping players to gain a new race as the cool worgen,aww....

Sylvanas had her own objective – the retrieval of the Scythe of Elune, an artifact capable of summoning complacent worgen that could spread their curse to all humanity.

Oh yeah,the forsaken have finally defeated the human invaders,aggressors of the heavily guarded bastion of Southshore,Hell yeah.....

Southshore has been destroyed by the Forsaken's "New Plague", despite the orders of the Horde leadership to cease production after the Wrathgate incident. The potency of the blight used is dubious, as even the Forsaken responsible for it express mild surprise at how effective it was. The town leaders led those who could escape to the town of Hillsbrad Fields, but some other inhabitants weren't so lucky as the residents were no match for the Forsaken's chemical weapons. Southshore was a well known supply port and a possible staging ground for the Alliance military in the new war, a hindrance to the Forsaken's territorial expansion.

It is now controlled by the Horde and serves as a quest hub, complete with a flight master. Yet due to the toxicity of the blight, the land will be inhospitable for a hundred years or so. Angry Blight Slimes infest the ruins. Dark rangers patrol the roads nearby with domesticated spiders and are occasionally found battling Bloodfang Forsaken Hunters.

 

[ViridianMenace]

She isn't evil? What?

She is probably the worst war criminal in the Horde ranks save for Garrosh. She has the blood of thousands on her hands willingly. To hell with Arthas and trauma.

1-She clearly ordered her "Apotecharies" to experiment on prisoners since vanilla, has quests of shackling farmers to drag them to mushroom camps for slave labor to death. Check out Undercity for torture and agony of Alliance POW's...and a few dead orcs chopped up for pieces. She CLEARLY knows and orders it, Korkron OVERSEEING the Alliance slaves' captivity and abuse in the Apotechary Quarter. Go look for "caged female". Jesus.

Google Therese Mindslave. The poor thing is alone reason for Horde's unashamed atrocities.

2-Undercity has a population of "prisoners and slaves" from Alliance ranks, lobotomized, tortured and experimented on for fun. this includes a mind-broken ("A little torture, a pinch of magic, and an ample helping of invasive surgery. She was conscious, of course.") human slave named Theresa whose brain is opened and parts removed alongside her eyes by Gerhard Abernathy, some sick f**k doctor. Seriously, Therese Mindslave should by her tragedy, raise a red flag in anyone's mind. Sylvanas clearly allows this. Latest wiki on wowpedia removed "Population: Undead, Human and Dwarf slaves and prisoners."

3-In a book Sylvanas force-feeds plague to a captured human girl and a Forsaken criminal to see how they suffer and die, rot while living.

4-Murder of Greymane's son, bombing of Worgen kingdom and Southshore

5-DIRECT involvement with experiment on prisoners and slavery, up and including torturing Deathweaver when he wanted to show common sense.

6-Wrathgate debacle was just the lid blowing off. And still she used the plague derived from prisoners, slaves and innocents on Southshore, and Gilneas. Who the hell can say she is "chaotic good"...seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?

Please. I mean, you CAN love sexy evil female characters. Just don't, for the sake of all that is holy, don't do this "moral relativity" stuff that degenerates people into edgy idiots.

Just admit that right from the start, she was evil all along. I mean, sympathies for what Arthas did but by now, her war crimes and atrocities surpassed Arthas' own.

She is evil. Purest evil, war criminal that turned the Horde into the same demonic Horde.

No beating around the bush. They ruined my Horde. How can I play a peaceful Tauren Paladin celebrating Valentine Day next to Abernathy's soul-destroyed torture doll? For serious, no troll answers.

If you think she isn't evil, I suggest re-reading her list of tortures, if that fails, come to terms with reality or mental counseling. Ain't got to do with "niceness", you dont stick prisoners to pens to kill them in horrible ways and claims its for your survival, or force feed captured human girls plague to make them rot slowly.

 

[RollBoat]

Hey, my point is that I like Sylvanas,but it turns me off from being fan when blizzard displays her and the forsaken as the good guys because of the sensitive fanbase.No logic, no facts needed she is evil and like her like that, dem it feel good to know that she is now displayed as the evilest person in the story.I don't give a dem about the rhetoric about facts and cannon lore.No she is evil, well they used to display her as evil in War 3, War 3 made Sylvanas for me personally the best character.If she gets killed, then ill be even more proud, since she will be remembered as the best character in the history of wow, to have made so much havoc and pain, and then to die while having the last laugh.Genn is not evil for fighting against them, he is the good guy for being part of the Alliance(try to override that).Either Lordaeron is Forsaken or Human(alive(hell even Orc and Troll Lordaeron)), and as long as the forsaken are alive they still have claim over Lordaeron since they are mostly undead humans, but Sylvanas is not?Soo I assume she might get replaced by an undead human who has a royal heritage that links to the Lordaeron royal family.But still in order for them to resolve this tension one of the two nations must be annihilated.Until that happens she will still be Evil, I don't care what Arthas did to her, I don't care about what Varimathras or Putress did, she organized it, she is responsible for it.Either she is dumb or evil.I prefer evil.

 

[ViridianMenace]

Hey, my point is that I like Sylvanas,but it turns me off from being fan when blizzard displays her and the forsaken as the good guys because of the sensitive fanbase.No logic, no facts needed she is evil and like her like that, dem it feel good to know that she is now displayed as the evilest person in the story.I don't give a dem about the rhetoric about facts and cannon lore.No she is evil, well they used to display her as evil in War 3, War 3 made Sylvanas for me personally the best character.If she gets killed, then ill be even more proud, since she will be remembered as the best character in the history of wow, to have made so much havoc and pain, and then to die while having the last laugh.Genn is not evil for fighting against them, he is the good guy for being part of the Alliance(try to override that).Either Lordaeron is Forsaken or Human(alive(hell even Orc and Troll Lordaeron)), and as long as the forsaken are alive they still have claim over Lordaeron since they are mostly undead humans, but Sylvanas is not?Soo I assume she might get replaced by an undead human who has a royal heritage that links to the Lordaeron royal family.But still in order for them to resolve this tension one of the two nations must be annihilated.Until that happens she will still be Evil, I don't care what Arthas did to her, I don't care about what Varimathras or Putress did, she organized it, she is responsible for it.Either she is dumb or evil.I prefer evil.

Evil of course. Read her book; she force feeds captured human girls plague to see how they bleed to death from their eyes, and has killed Greymane's son in game, and kept slave pens of Alliance personnel to experiment on.

Pure. Evil.

Not that I mind, evil characters *are* needed, some like to play evil, some like to play the other side:

What pisses me off is that there is people that say she isn't. It's as if she has a cult of personality of fans. When I argued the same in wowhead WITHOUT insults I was banned.

But when you vote "no" to her evil, I am deeply sorry to inform you that this (probably NOT you) is stupid.

RAW stupid. Like "hit in the head with a rock" stupid.

You cannot have opinions against canon evidence, such as Thrall, say, having eaten an apple in a hundred books and fictions and suddenly claim he never ate one.

 

[ViridianMenace]

From 1d4chan, some guys wrote a Mary Sue case study:

Started out as a Fantasy counterpart for Sarah Kerrigan, she's been turning into Fantasy Hitler/Mengele. She sets up the Undercity as a fortress/Horde-run concentration camp for Alliance captives, and has free reign of atrocities ranging from slavery to genocide. Her Royal Apothecary kidnapped innocents to experiment upon under her watch, torturing them for fun and science. She was under suspicion for the Wrathgate Incident (she knew about the plague, but not that it would be used on the Horde too), invaded Gilneas, nuked Southshore, waged a torture-filled genocidal campaign on the Humans, manipulated the Horde (to join them in the first place in order to use them as tools), built a Cult of Personality around herself, employed the Val'kyr (which seems to be a case of "Even Chaos has standards" when seen by pragmatic Death Knight Thassarian), resurrected those who she killed against their will despite not liking when it happened to her, shot and killed Liam Greymane then taunted his father Genn about it, attempted to steal the Scythe of Elune to enslave the Worgen to expand her personal army and made some kind of deal with the devil to get the Val'kyr in the first place. The closest she got to any kind of punishment was Lor'thermar threatening to kill her if she raised the Horde's dead as Forsaken, stating he'd leave her to the Alliance if she tried it on their dead and calling her out on several of her actions in Mists of Pandaria. In Legion, after retreating from the Broken Shore on Vol'jin's death, the crowning moment of Mary Suedom occurs when she ends up being named the next Warchief of the Horde with Vol'jin's dying words. Mary Sue reason? She never suffers any (literally, ANY) setback except Greymane ruining her Val'kyr agenda. All her atrocities and horrors are ignored into heroism, and what's worse, she automatically pulls out the next phase of her agenda out of her ass, and her Forsaken, despite horrendous losses and ban on raising unwilling dead, somehow destroys each and everything innocent around her...only for her to get raised of Warchief status. This issue is compounded by the fact that Sylvanas has a very vocal fanbase and she's the Creator Pet of one of Blizzard's lead writers, David Kosak.

 

[stein123]

 

[Chaosy]

Figured I'd bump this with the new Warbringers video.

 

[TheLordOfChaos201]

she's evil

there are a lot of events where she went out of her way to do something unnecessarily evil.

I mean being a leader means making hard decisions, but she actually causes her people more pain in order to do wicked deeds that have no benefit to her peoples

 

[Painbrand]

If her only goal would be to protect her people, she could be seen as having benevolent intention. A lot of people even believe the "the ends justify the means" mindset to be morally grey (it's not).
From the beginning of the World of Warcraft, quests have revealed Sylvanas to be developing a plague to wipe out the living - including other members of the Horde. She wishes to grow the Forsaken race, essentially damning more souls to a half-existence. She's a genocidal maniac who just happens to be a great manipulator.
Sylvanas may believe that she is doing her people and the world a favor, but there was a real-life man in Germany who believed the same thing.