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Immigrant/Refugee Crisis

Discussion in 'Medivh's Tower' started by Deathcom3s, Sep 16, 2015.

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  1. InfernalTater

    InfernalTater

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    Strike
    You are mistaken in believing that I am arguing against accepting refugees. I am not. I am simply acknowledging that there are negative effects.

    You don't have to believe anything I say. I really don't give a shit and I won't waste my life trying to prove why I think my beliefs are more accurate than other people's beliefs. Believe what you want, it doesn't much affect me. I reserve my right to continue to express my own beliefs which will often differ from yours and I respect your right to do the same. If I am trying to prove something in real life to make a real difference, then yes, I will use evidence to prove my claim. But I will not waste time browsing the internet just to give you evidence which you would deny even if I gave it. No matter what claim a person makes, there is evidence on the internet to support their claim, with biased experiments and cherry picked statistics. I could prove that red is yellow. Having sources to support your claims does not prove their validity; it only proves that you felt like taking the time to find other people on the internet that agree with you.

    Pay me, then you can tell me to waste my day finding proof. Until then you'll just have to deal with discussion. This is a forum for modding an old game. If you think I take this seriously enough to waste all day researching for a single post, then you are drastically mistaken. This is THW. The whole "Proof or I'll ignore everything you say" argument is only applicable in law. In life, you have to listen and determine the relevance and accuracy of information for yourself instead of expecting everyone to PROVE to you why you should believe them. If we wasted time PROVING every single thing we ever say, we'd have no jobs, no hobbies, and no lives.

    Oh, wait that's most of you guys already. So I guess I understand why you expect that of me. I suppose I'll just have to leave this part of the forum.


    This post has been issued a strike.

    Reason: At MT we debate. Debating is supposed to be logical, formal and engaging: while your post may be engaging, it is certainly not logical or formal. Please try to provide more than noise.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2015
  2. Ash

    Ash

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    And you are mistaken in assuming that's what I was suggesting. I am saying your acknowledgement of this is ungrounded and silly. Adding unexplained variance into any equation increases the amount of information you cannot explain.

    Then mayhaps your opinion will be better received elsewhere.

    You are making a mockery of MT, a place reserved for serious discussion and debate, by adding statements of no validity.

    I really hope you don't truly believe this.

    This is actually a large part of why you're wrong. I do suspect you will have to leave this part of the forum soon, and if this is your line of logic and reasoning it will not be of your own accord.
     
  3. InfernalTater

    InfernalTater

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    Got it. Don't talk about all sides of an argument because it's too confusing. Dumb my arguments down until they are easily understandable, and slim them down to include solely my own narrowminded point of view which supports the argument I'm making while ignoring anything that does not support it, because having a more complete knowledge on the subject by acknowledging everything that can affect it, whether it supports your argument or not, is frowned upon in these parts.

    I thought this was a place intended to bring up details people may not have thought about before, but apparently it's just a courtroom with debate lawyers.

    So you're saying that all of this is untrue, and that the place and people where a person live have no effect on them whatsoever? Cool. Keep living in your land of ideals where everyone on the planet is the same. As much as you want it, that does not make it true.

    Please show me where in the rules I am required to spend the entire day on the internet searching for articles that prove each individual post. Oh, there is no such rule?

    Oh well. You can go ahead and ban me anyway if you really want to.
     
  4. Ash

    Ash

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    Pretty much all of your post is ignoring what I'm recommending you do:

    I'm asking you think about what you write. Just saying "accepting refugees will have unintended negative consequences" is dumb. Everything anyone does has unintended consequences, so your point is almost tautological. Why should we care about this? Why do you even bring it up? These are important empirical questions that you should be addressing.

    I'm asking you consider the length of your posts. Just because you can make something stretch from five words to fifty doesn't make you smart, just verbose and boring.

    I'm asking that you support your arguments. Not because this is an "internet courtroom", but because what you're saying propagates common misunderstandings that we need to actively address both as groups and individuals. By deciding you don't want to find things that support what you're saying, you're just making yourself appear like a village idiot shouting the first thing that comes to his head.

    I know you are not a village idiot, so stop acting like such a shitweasel, grow up, and start contributing to threads constructively. If you disagree with this, open a thread in Staff Contact and we can talk more. If you agree with this, let's move these posts back on-topic.
     
  5. InfernalTater

    InfernalTater

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    So, let me get this straight. You believe that the unintended consequences do not matter, and that only the positive effects of immigration should be noted. Because of this, I am not allowed to discuss the possible negative effects, because they are "meaningless".

    What is the point of discussion if anyone with a different opinion is not permitted to speak it? It sounds like you're saying everyone is just supposed to say the same thing: That immigration is always good. That doesn't leave much room for debate.
     
  6. LordDz

    LordDz

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    I think he's trying to say that you should back up your facts with sources, because then they become facts instead of something you just say.

    And if it takes a whole day to find a source for your claim, are you sure your claim is correct?

    + You and me have over 3k posts, to say "spending time to find out something for an internet forum is a waste of time"... You're sort of already wasting your time on a forum with that logic :p
     
  7. Ash

    Ash

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    InfernalPotato - No, as far as your unintended consequences line of reasoning goes, I'm telling you that you need to inform us about why we should care. You can't just say "this will have unintended consequences" because it achieves nothing. Here's an example: I just farted, it had unintended consequences.

    What are the unintended consequences? It left a bad aroma and my partner threw a shoe at me. You're just saying something will happen. Something will always happen. Tell us about why we should care.

    If you want to discuss what we're talking about any more, staff contact. If you want to add to the thread topic, be my guest. Just try to add something that can be, or is, substantiated.
     
  8. InfernalTater

    InfernalTater

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    What the unintended consequences were has already been explained previously in this thread many times. It's on a small scale, so it's not enough to justify keeping immigrants out, but it still happens, because of cultural differences causing a very small portion of immigrants to think it's okay to rape.

    No matter where you go in the world, some people are racist. When you put these racists in immediate contact with people they are racist against, they will either A, learn that they are equal, or B, continue to think of other people as less than human, and treat them that way, including rape.
     
  9. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    That is 100% not what he said. He said that everything has unintended consequences, so unless these unintended consequences can be proven more harmful than other unintended consequences, bringing this as an argument makes absolutely zero sense.

    The argument that "there will be more crimes if we have more refugees" is moot if the additional number of crimes would be the same as if we increase the general population by the same number.
    A population that is twice as large will have twice as many crimes performed in total. The unintended consequences of letting a refugees in is therefore the same as the unintended consequences of having a child. And yet nobody complains about how making children will lead to higher crime.

    Your entire premise is based on a single assumption: that refugees are more likely (percentage-wise) to commit crimes than the general population. If your whole argument is based on this assumption, it is simply required that you back this up with actual facts, because until then, your entire point gets invalid if we can not acknowledge this fact as the truth.
     
  10. InfernalTater

    InfernalTater

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    So what you're saying is that I can't suggest that something is a possible risk, instead I should simply have the immigrants enter the country and commit crimes, use a time machine to go a few years into the future, take the crime statistics, and then travel back to the current time to provide these statistics? That is absurd. If you wait until something ALREADY happens so that you have statistics, then you haven't prevented anything. That's like waiting for a psychopath to go on a killing spree before you decide to give him medications and keep assault rifles out of his reach.

    Please note that I am not comparing refugees to psychopaths; I am simply saying that expecting statistics to prove preventive reasoning is absurd, because you don't have statistics until you wait for it to happen, and the whole point of preventing something is to not let it happen in the first place, not wait for it to happen and say "See, there's your proof."
     
  11. LordDz

    LordDz

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  12. InfernalTater

    InfernalTater

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    Of course there have been refugees before, however the risk of an increased crime rate depends significantly on two things:

    The difference in crime rates between where they come from and where they're going, and even if the rates are similar, how much their culture clashes with another culture because of differences can also affect crime rate.

    The crime rate could increase, decrease, or stay the same, depending on where the immigrants came from and where they're going. Overall, it's been proven that on average, crime rate will increase; however every situation is different, and it doesn't ALWAYS increase.
     
  13. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    "Things happen or they don't happen."
    What exactly is your point here?

    @LordDZ thanks for the link... i didnt know wikipedia had a page for this.
    Most of the references on this page are pretty old. Also they don't differentiate between the origin countries (at least those that weren't behind a language barrier) or reason of immigration. But i guess it's something.

    If I were to ask about what I hate about the migration stream (and mind you that is the only thing i criticize beside political fails of the EU), it is that many of the refugees we take in disguise as syrians despite obviously not from syria. It's hard to find numbers on this, but if you examine a lot of press photos, you will notice how diverse the ethnicity of the refugees are. They simply can't all be syrians. Some are pretty obviously pakistans or central africans. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. If these people come from equally problematic countries, then so be it. But especially pakistan is a relatively stable country and these people will sooner or later rejected anyway. So basicly, they are wasting precious time and manpower that could help those actually in need.
     
  14. oger-lord

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    Our local newspaper published some interesting informations about the situation in our city:
    4.500 asylum-seekers
    1.300 during the procedure
    2.800 rejected but are allowed to stay
    15% are from Syria
    Estimated costs (for a year): 10.000€ per asylum-seekers, total 40million€, our city needs to pay 8 million €.
    Funfact: Our city is indebted, for example they plan to give 600.000€ less for our theatre.
     
  15. In the Philippines we even allowed immigrants to stay here in our country but the possibility is human trafficking or any type of crimes will struck here in other countries around the world, But I'd say I wouldn't allow refugees to camp here and just find an Underground shelter instead to avoid conflicts of civil war or such chaos involved in their cities. But with such crisis of this we need humanitarian help from the government but the problem is that the government can't focus with this kind of chaos/situation it's because they've been dealing with criminals in other regions such as Drug dealing, Thieves, Kidnappers/Ransomers and ETC.

    I'd say we should find a way to make the refugees/immigrants to find a positive way to stop them from migrating to other countries that would cause situations of the government and civilians.

    :asad: I apologize for my misunderstanding grammar, I tried my best to type the formal way :as:
     
  16. neo_sluf

    neo_sluf

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    Reading your comments make my head hurt. Too much english, I can't handle it.

    About the current issue heres my opinion.

    What if the EU and US or even UN just eradicate this ISIS to restore peace and eliminate the root cause.

    Is that hard to do that?
     
  17. LordDz

    LordDz

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    Pretty hard when we have US arming the rebels, russia arming the goverment and various other countries arming isis.

    "Bombing for peace is like f*cking for virginity." Just look how good Libya turned out when it was bombed to remove Gaddafi.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/10/uk-bomb-syria-eu-refugee-crisis
     
  18. Daffa

    Daffa

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    Welcome to a screwed world system.

    Honestly, the way that different sides are armed by many countries are unlikely to cease the fire between these sides. It's complicated to get over with.
     
  19. The_Silent

    The_Silent

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    Well, every time the west triest to "clean up" the middle east, it just gets worse.
     
  20. Well, this ISIS group is a religious radical group but ...
    It's not the religion that is violent and to blame for, it's the people who are violent and radical.
    So as refuges.
     
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