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Immigrant/Refugee Crisis

Discussion in 'Medivh's Tower' started by Deathcom3s, Sep 16, 2015.

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  1. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    The problem is not the people coming into Europe, but that mixed among them are ISIL sleeper agents. In the coming months and years one can expect terrorist activity in the EU to increase by at least an order of magnitude. As such at the current rate it is only a matter of time before a major terrorist incident which will cost 100s of innocent people their lives.
     
  2. kellym0

    kellym0

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    ''Accusing someone of being racist for their entire life when they, are not runs the risk of some people deciding "Fuck it, if everyone is going to accuse me of being racist because I'm white, then I'll just be guilty as charged"

    .......But... but what if that has already happened to some one? what then? =O
     
  3. InfernalTater

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    It already has. It's happened to lots of people, particularly in the United States.
     
  4. Orcnet

    Orcnet

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    I'll leave this video about Syria here for all of us to see:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvOnXh3NN9w
     
  5. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    A great video! Thanks for sharing this.

    It's cool that you ask for oppinions of locals instead of just diving into it blindly. Much respect for that.

    First, let me tell you that I'm a german, so considering that most of the refugees streaming into europe have germany or sweden as their destination, I am proud of my country that it managed to keep a friendly face in all that's happening.
    Recently, Chancellor Merkel unfortunately surrendered under the right-wing pressure from her own party, temporarily closing the borders... which is a shame, but it can't be helped. At least it's only temporarily by law. I just hope that this will convince the EU to react as intended.

    I am one of those guys that don't consider the refugee crisis as an actual crisis. How can giving refugees from war-torn countries a shelter ever be a "crisis"?
    What disgusts me is how amateurishly the EU and lots of the european countries (including germany) did prepare for all this. We knew about the Syrian war for months. We knew the refugees were coming. Yet we didn't prepare anything.
    In the german administrative, they have accumulated over 300.000(!) regugee applications... with no personnel to properly deal with them. And now, 5 months later they finally recognized that they don't have the manpower to deal with all those applications? This is like the dumbest administration fail that I have ever seen.
    What did they expect after the first 50.000 applications? That they would magically vanish over time? Why is it that it took 300.000 unanswered applications before they realized that we don't have enough manpower to work through them?

    The refugee crisis is not about refugees. It's about the complete global fail of europe. We have the eastern countries performing humanitarian crimes on refugees and protesting against the much needed changes to european law. We have the UK and france bailing out of their responsibility. We have the United states ironically *praising* themselves for taking in 10.000 syrian refugees (newsflash: germany alone is preparing to shelter over 800.000(!) refugees, with only one quarter the population of the US, how the fuck can the US even dare to brag about their *humanity* in this crisis that they themselves caused by supporting the factions that stirred up the war in Syria in the first place?). America should be ashamed of themselves. And so should the UK.

    This is completely blown out of proportion, to be honest.
    If ISIS wanted to get or recruit terrorists in european countries, they have far easier options than disguising themselves as refugees where they would be immediately a suspect or registered.

    Terrorism doesn't care for open or closed borders. They'll always find their way to where they want to be. In fact, welcoming refugees with open arms might even make it harder for terrorists to recruit/transfer sleeper agents into their target countries simply because the communities will be larger, leading to more possible "pro west" sentiments, that might report possible terrorist activities among their community. Who is more likely to report another syrian for terroristic sentiments? A syrian family that might aswell be a victim of terrorist attacks or another sleeper extremist? It's harder to build a terrorist network if you can't know for sure that everyone you contact shares the same ideals.

    The larger a community is, the easier it is to control it.
    Seriously, reading the rest of your post I can understand why people call you a racist. Heck, even I would call you a racist for what you just posted.
    Maybe you have good intentions and you're just terrible with words. But seriously, if people called you a racist all your life, have you maybe considered that they might have a point? It's easy to blame others, but it's hard to acknowledge being wrong once you've established a certain mindset.

    No. Just no. If we stop paying attention to racism, we will end up as a society that is not better than the countries we consider "rogue states".
    Ignoring a problem will not magically make it go away.

    Most people that are called racist are. Here in germany, people usually start dumb arguments with the following words:
    "I'm not a racist, but ...", followed by some bullshit that can easily be dismantled by just doing a little research. Maybe not all of these people are racists. But if they couldn't even do proper research on a so-called "fact" before spreading it, then those that aren't racist must in turn be just dumb.
    To be honest, I prefer racists actually being racists instead of just being dumb or uneducated. At least then I can take them seriously and value their oppinion by freedom of speech.

    Subtle, everyday racism is worse than the obvious racism. At least you can just wave your hands at the obvious racists and ignore them for being idiots. It's the subtle non-extremist racists like the guys of the PEGIDA movement that are giving our country a bad name. I prefer having one true Nazi over 10 non-extremist racists any day, because nobody gets offended by a Nazi. The potential damage done by an extremist is way less dangerous than that every-day racism of non-extremists, simply because they are everywhere: fathers, mothers, brothers.
    Fuck it, my father is one of these everyday racists. And I can't hate him because he's my damn father. But I sure as hell despise him whenever he is talking about the refugee crisis. I wished he would just shut up. Because he is exactly what the every-day racists are: uneducated, repeating so-called "facts" spread by the same people that get called out for being racists all the time, but just refuse to accept that those people might be right.

    Guess what: I was never called a racist in my entire life. Not even once. And I am white, blond and have blue eyes. Hitler would have loved me.
    Doesn't the fact that other people get called out for being racist a lot, make you in any way suspicious? It's not like people are throwing this around just for fun. If people want to insult you for fun, they call you whatever is currently in vogue. "Racist" is not one of those.

    Correct. But that doesn't mean they should run around telling other people what they believe.
    Subtle racists are like vegans. They can't possibly shut up about it.

    This goes against the EU law. But I fully agree on the fact that refugees should be allowed to work.
    Also, please don't confuse refugees with immigrants. Immigrants are allowed to work as they have limited (or unlimited) staying rights, only refugees aren't. A refugee becomes an immigrant as soon as they staying rights have been evaluated. Which is actually the biggest problem of the EU states right now: Most of the refugees arriving in europe get lost in the asylum application limbo for months, if not years. If applications could be answered faster, the crisis would immedaitely solve itself.

    Wait a second, you aren't even from europe? That... explains a lot.

    This is exactly the kind of bullshit a racist says. See? This is exactly the problem with the "I'm not a racist, but..."-people: they just don't know when it's better to stop talking.
    Whatever good point you made in your post before, you've effectively destroyed all credibility with this last sentence.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2015
  6. Shadow Fury

    Shadow Fury

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    Before dropping my two cents on racism, I'd appreciate expressing my views on the main topic, immigrants. As most of you know, I live in Egypt but I'm originally from Europe, Italy, and I constantly follow the news to be updated on what's going on in my native country. Apparently the immigrants are starting to get out of control. I'm not speaking merely about poor people who had to flee from the poverty and war of their countries to seek refuge elsewhere but of those who travelled to Europe because they knew they'd receive better services than the Europeans themselves. As far as I know, in Italy that's what's happening; I don't know about the rest of Europe though. This problem is escalating very rapidly because the number of immigrants keeps increasing, causing conflicts between them and the Europeans. In fact, European countries are thinking of cancelling a certain visa valled Schengler to stop more immigrants from coming and to exile most of them from Europe.

    Concerning racism, I never ever had problems with that in my whole life. I'm white but nobody ever called me racist, I never heard anybody talking about it in real life and, in all honesty, I never touched that topic until now. My opinion is that whatever your skin colour is, you are not superior or inferior to any other person. I don't believe in racism not only because I think it is incorrect but also because it leads to many conflicts, battles and wars. We are all humans in the end, whether with a white skin or a black skin. Humans are one unique race.
    Ignoring racism, as Zwiebelchen said, is not the way of solving it. Problems don't fly away by themselves. However, as formerly implied, the topic is very delicate and it is very easy to go astray with bad wording (in fact I'm hoping not to fall in this fatal trap).
    I think I've got no more to say on the topic.
     
  7. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    my $0.02.

    alright so i'm an asian australian who has a slavic stepfather and a group of friends whose backgrounds include anglo-australian, italian, chinese and indian. one of them is even muslim. believe me when i say integrating migrants can and has worked.
    however, i also am not blind to its detriments. i live near a suburb which had served as a dumping ground for primarily bosnian and sudanese refugees. the people for the most part get along. but the majority of refugees are uneducated, leading to higher crime rates and lower employment in that area.

    i think refugees definitely can integrate and benefit society, but factors such as lack of education, cultural differences, and language barriers should not be ignored. if governments develop suitable infrastructure and aim to not only integrate refugees, but give them the means to contribute to society (jobs, good education etc.), then there should be no problem with taking them in.


    now that that's out of the way, onto the crisis itself. since i'm neither european nor syrian, most of the info i know is from secondary sources and my opinions should thusly be taken with a grain of salt. that said, i think the crisis largely has to do with poor preparation, and a lack of responsibility from every european country other than germany. furthermore, i think the UAE are a bunch of selfish cowards, and to a lesser extent so too are the US and australia.

    i don't think it's fair that europe should take the full wave of refugees, and i do think that too large of an influx of refugees is a problem for any nation. i'm not sure about the economic status of germany and the rest of europe, but i know for sure that if you're taking in 800,000 people the crisis will not only be the processing of applications. there'll be issues with housing, employment and education. welfare will have to increase, at the very least initially. cultural differences cannot be ignored, because while i can say with confidence that the majority of refugees are not islamic extremists, i can say that ghettos and racial conflicts have a place in the realm of reality.
    i mean shit, remember how at the start of this post i bragged about the success of multiculturalism and immigrant integration in my country? well, sometimes it ain't all fine and dandy like that.
     
  8. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    A lot of people have a very wrong imagination of how Syria looked like before the war.

    Here is a picture of pre-war Aleppo:
    click
    [​IMG]

    Looks beautiful, doesn't it? Not surprising, considering Syria was a popular tourist hotspot.

    People think of Syria as if it was stuck in the middle ages with barbarians living in tents. That couldn't be farther from the truth. They had shopping malls, doctors, smartphones, scientists, universities, etc.
    In fact, pre-war Aleppo looked more advanced than many western cities in countries like spain or portugal.
    People coming from Syria are not dumb or uneducated. Some are. But then again, most people in western nations are aswell. In germany, we have a severe backwards trend in higher education numbers.

    There are a lot of other EU countries taking responsibility. Sweden, for example, takes 4 times more refugees than germany (relative to their number of inhabitants). The absolute numbers don't matter; only the relative numbers do. Turkey, for example, already shelters over a million refugees. The small country of Libanon has it even worse. Every fourth person there is already from Syria. It's a shame that most european build walls, abandoning all those poor neighbouring countries with the main load of refugees.

    Even if germany takes all 800.000 people in, that would be less than 1% of the population of germany. Also, immigrants in germany, statistically contribute a net gain to the welfare state, not a net loss.
    As seen here:
    http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik...entlasten-deutsche-sozialkassen/11041140.html
    I also have the source paper for this newsarticle, which is official statistics of the european institute for economy research. So, no, this is not fake.

    For those that can't read german: it's a study that shows that immigrants usually contribute a yearly 3300€ net gain per person in form of taxes after accounting for increased welfare cost.

    I'd say a minority of 1% of a population won't turn the culture of a nation upside-down.
     
  9. InfernalTater

    InfernalTater

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    Name one thing I've said, anywhere on THW, including that post, that was racist. I have not said anything racist because I am not a racist. But apparently having a different opinion from yours makes me racist.

    I didn't say to ignore racism. I said to not pay so much attention to it. At this point people are over-analyzing everything they see, every word that is spoken, and every action that is taken, to determine if it is racist. And they are only analyzing white people to see if they are racist, because for whatever reason, most people, the racists that they are, believe that racism is a white issue, when in reality it is a global issue, and there are people of every ethnicity that are prejudiced, with people of every ethnicity falling victim to prejudice. The problem is that the majority of people are stupid. So when they try to fight racism, instead of fixing it, they just create MORE racism, because they are so stupid that they fail to realize that they are racist themselves, and are spreading racism instead of reducing it. Leave movements to the masterminds that have taken the time to think about how each and every move they make will have an impact on the world, both intended and unintended. We need another Ghandi or MLK to calm people the fuck down and get them to resist only against the REAL prejudice, instead of going apeshit and killing each other over being different colors of skin, because they "hate racists", when in reality they are racists themselves.

    That is in Germany. You have no idea what people are like in the United States. You know those idiotic arguments you always see under Youtube videos with everyone accusing each other of being racists, sexists, nazis, etc, every time they have a different opinion, when there was nothing prejudiced about it? The United States is like that in real life. If you look at the ground and nod your head in agreement with everyone around you, you'll get along just fine, but if you have a different opinion than someone else, and your skin happens to be white, you will be accused of being racist, because that's the quickest way to destroy someone's argument; even if you were talking about something completely unrelated to racism such as the price of tea. I do not submit to the opinions of the majority. I examine everything and I think about it from many angles. I form my own opinions. These opinions will often differ from the opinions of the majority simply because the majority adopted their opinions to conform to whatever they believed everyone else believed. Since I disagree with people about a lot of things, they often become very angry, and this will lead them to make a wide variety of irrelevant accusations.

    In america, "Racist" is indeed one of those. Racist, Rapist, Misogynist, and Pedophile are the worst things you can be called here. People here hate those more than serial killers. When people become too emotional during an argument, they just resort to trying to say the other person is a bad person, with an accusation that will cause everyone around to begin hating on the person they throw the accusation at, because everyone is quick to denounce a potential racist, whether he is racist or not, to prove that they themselves are not racist "because I hate racists", when in reality, most people fighting against racism here in America are just white people who are racist against themselves, calling other white people racist just to assure people that they themselves are not racist. If they weren't racist, then they'd be accusing people of any race of racism instead of just white people, as if only white people are racist (Which, just to be sure you don't find a way to completely misinterpret me -- this is untrue, as people of any ethnicity can be racist).

    Like I said, treat them based on the way they act, not by what they believe. If they're going around being assholes and oppressing others with their hateful views, then deal with them the same way you deal with anyone else behaving in such a way. If they keep their views to themselves, and the only reason you suspect them of racism is because you spent 5 hours interpreting something they said a hundred different ways, and one of those ways could sound racist, then it shouldn't really matter. If they are racist, then detecting their racism will require minimal effort. If you had to analyze their speech to come to the conclusion that they are racist, then they probably aren't racist, and simply didn't realize that one particular thing they said could be interpreted as racist.

    Personally, I know that I am not racist, so I don't give a fuck. I will not censor my speech. If you read something I say and come to the conclusion that I am racist, then it's the result of your own flawed perception of what I said. The world expects everyone to censor themselves to be politically correct and avoid offending anyone. When any particular truth makes any particular group of people look bad, we're supposed to pretend that truth doesn't exist. Fuck that, I will say the truth, and if you find the truth offensive, that's your own damn problem, not mine.

    Raised together, with no concept of ethnicity, everyone is equal and their ethnicity would mean nothing. But the world simply doesn't work like that. Where you're born, where you're raised, and where you live, has a huge impact on who you are. Every place is different. Someone who lived their entire life in Asia will usually be very different from someone who spent their entire life in Europe, for example. The majority of people in China happen to be Chinese. Living in China will shape you into a person that will fit in, in China. The end result is Chinese people being more likely to be a certain way, not because of genetics, but because they are shaped by their culture. Just as the majority of Americans are a certain way, the majority of British people are a certain way, and so on. It doesn't mean that everyone within a country are clones of each other; of course everyone is different, but they will have a tendency to have certain traits based on how they were shaped by the culture around them. If you've ever been to another country, then you already know that people in different countries act differently. This is because of how they are shaped by the culture around them. It has nothing to do with their ethnicity, however because every ethnicity has specific countries it is more common in, this means that people of each ethnicity are more likely to be a certain way simply because they spent time in different cultures. A person from China will be different from a person from Africa. A person from Africa is more likely to be African, than not African. A person from China is more likely to be Chinese, than not Chinese. This causes a difference between how Africans act, and how Chinese act. This is not racism; this is simply how the world works. Genetically, we are all pretty much the same, but we are shaped by the culture we grow up in.

    I didn't say anything racist at all. What I said had nothing to do with the ethnicity of the people, but rather the place they come from. The majority of people are sheep, and the person they are shaped into is based on the culture they grow within as they adapt to fit in with the people around them. In muslim countries, rape is much easier to get away with, and so muslims are more likely to rape. A person who is not a muslim that is raised in a muslim country is still more likely rape because unlike in western countries they have not been taught as strongly not to rape. It has nothing to do with their ethnicity or religion, but rather the moral values that are taught to them by the people around them. I'm not saying all muslims are rapists. But, statistically, when they flood into a country, there will be an increase in rape victims until they adapt to the culture of the country they've immigrated into. This is not racism, this is simply fact. Just because it doesn't fit into your idealistic view that everyone all over the world is the same, doesn't mean it isn't true. The truth is people around the world are different because they are raised in different cultures that encourage and discourage different traits to differing degrees. Every religion teaches different things. This causes the people who follow each religion to believe certain actions are worse than other actions, based on what they were taught. If your religion teaches you that eating frogs is wrong, that throwing pumpkins at cars is good, and that it doesn't matter if you tie your shoes or not, then you are more likely to throw pumpkins at cars and not eat frogs, and whether or not you tie your shoes will depend on your own personal preference; so you will be less likely to tie your shoes than people in countries that encourage it, and more likely to than in countries that discourage it. This is on a cultural level; not a legal level. For example, the United States government discourages drug use, and we all know how that ended up; because our culture embraced it.

    I did not suggest that immigrants should be turned down just because a small portion of them are rapists. I merely stated this as a fact; a lot of people are being raped by muslim immigrants. When I analyze a situation, I note everything, whether it supports or fights against my argument; because if it is true, then it is true. I still believe that refugees should be accepted because the majority of them just want a better life and are willing to work hard to get it. The pain caused by the minority of immigrants that cause problems is just something that will have to be dealt with until things settle down. Anyone that wishes serious harm to the country they're entering, would enter it whether it was legal or illegal. Not allowing immigrants will only keep out the potential law-abiding citizens that you actually want to enter your country.

    It's a shame that you and I argue so much. You always misunderstand me. I tend to agree with your posts, but you always argue with me because you try to guess the reason behind my opinion, and you always guess wrong. Don't assume you know who I am; just read my post and take it genuinely, because it is genuine. Don't try to reinterpret my words and get meaning from them that was not intended just because you think I believe something different. You would find that what I want is not that different from what you want; I just talk about all sides of the issue, including what is opposed to my own. I agree with you on nearly everything we argue about; I just also state facts that oppose our shared point of view, if such facts are evident. We both believe that refugees should be freely accepted. I just also acknowledge facts that oppose that viewpoint, because while most facts support it, some facts would discourage it. In the end I support it because the reasons to allow refugees outweigh the reasons not to allow them; but reasons not to still exist.

    I agree with all of this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
  10. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    You know, at first I was going to actually reply to anything you just wrote, but then I realized that all this is just a giant, extremely verbose defense of yourself not being racist, despite all the obvious clues.
    Point taken: I don't know you. I can judge you only on what you write. If you don't see yourself as a racist, that's fine to me. Feel free not to be offended.
    However, don't criticize people for judging you based on what you write. Because writing stuff in a public (as in visible for unregistered visitors) forum was your decision. From what you wrote, I call you a racist. Why? Because that's what I could extract from both your initial post AND your verbose defense aswell. And I actually prefer seeing you as a racist, because, as I pointed out, the other option (that you're just dumb) would be worse.

    So, fine, I'll play along. I'll quote you on all the typical racist statement.
    Note that none of these statements are new or unique to me. All of them can be found almost everywhere, be it facebook, youtube or whatever platform you can imagine. You basicly follow the standard playbook of every other undercover-everyday-non-extremist racist on the web.

    The typical "you accuse me of being racist? That's racist!" defense.
    Yawn. Sorry, but this is just bullshit. There are racists in every ethnicity. Nobody denies that. And you get called out for being a racist no matter what ethnicity you are. This is not exclusive to white people. It just looks that way for you because that's what you want to believe in your agenda.
    Yes, Black people or hispanics won't get accused of being racist as much as white people. Why? Because they, in fact, mostly are less racist. There are only few things in life where being white is actually a drawback. Basicly, Rapper-cred and maybe blues musicians. And that's about it. Privilegues are a thing. As a white person, you don't know shit about what it's like to be to be judged based on your skin color. Especially in the US, one of the most racist countries in the world.
    Have you ever been to asia, especially Japan? No? I have. And I can tell you that it's an eye-opener for a white male. Japanese people might be extremely polite on the outside, but contrary to that, Japan is a very racist society. White people (as in western white people) are subject of actual racism there. Sometimes understanding what racism means requires walking in their shoes for a moment.
    And I was there as a tourist. I haven't even noticed what it means to be a white western person in Japan if I would work there and would be confronted with all the subtle everyday racism.

    If someone calls you a racist, that is not automaticly racist in itself. "oooh, I get oppressed by my beliefs, you are racist!". That's not how it works.

    Contrary to your belief, calling someone out for being a racist is important. Because racism is like cancer: you won't know that you have it growing inside until it's too late.

    If I can make at least one person that shares obvious racist sentiments into reflecting what he just said by calling him out on his racism, then that's one less bad person in this world.
    And it's worth it to step on their feet.
    I've called someone out on being a racist before. I had a lengthy argument with this guy in a bar (he is a friend of a friend, so I just got to know him on this day).
    He told me about how he did not take foreigners in his car when doing carsharing and excused it by being scared of them being criminals or illegal and that he would get in trouble if police stopped him.
    I asked him if he knew about how discriminating that sentiment is and that he couldn't know for sure that any white person he takes is not a criminal either. That he is judging them based on his twisted perception of ethnicity without giving them the benefit of a doubt.
    After we we're done talking, he said "you know what... I think you are right. I've never even noticed that before."
    Basicly, he noticed that he immediately put people with different ethnicity into a different category. He didn't even have any malicious intend in this; it's extremely subliminal. Most people don't even notice it when it happens. He wasn't a bad guy at all. But he just had this subtle racism that one would pick up when living in a household with a parent that has racist sentiments. Children do get influenced by their parents after all.

    And when you notice you are wrong, there are just two things you can do:
    1) acknowledge that you are wrong and try to improve. This is the hard way.
    2) defend yourself as just stating your oppinion. And deny being a racist at all costs, instead of accepting that something you said or did was not right. This is the easy way.

    How can oppinions be wrong, you ask? Well, it's actually quite simple.
    Have this lovely little EGS-strip explaining it:
    click
    [​IMG]


    You know what you could do? You could just apologize for all the dumb generalizations you did in your posts here. I'm not saying you have to retract every oppinion you voiced. That would be stupid. But you could at least admit that the statements I quoted at the end of this post were just stupid and written in the heat of the moment.

    That is not how discussions work. You voice your oppinion, you must be prepared to get judged by it. If you don't want that, then don't write it.

    Bullshit. Not every black person is seeking for points to be offended. Why would they? Most of them just want to be left alone, just like white people.
    There are some people that try to be offended on everything you say. But those people exist in every ethnicity. Saying that every black person immediately throws you into the racist bin is a generalization based on skin color. Aka racism.

    There is actually a nice South Park episode on this (Season 11; "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson"). You should watch it. It tackles that problem pretty well.

    Judging from all you've posted until now, I am perfectly sure that you were not called out for being a racist because of your skin color, but for your oppinions. And judging people you don't know is natural human behaviour. That's why thinking before talking is important. First impression means everything.
    This is what seperates us from animals - we have the ability to use our brains.

    Children beat each other for any random reasons. Heck, children beat each other for toys, if they feel like it.

    Nope. All your defense is based on this mantra. This is simply not true. Statistically, you are way more likely to be judged on your words than on your skin color when being a white person than being a black person.
    And the irony in this is: you don't want to be judged by your skin color, yet you complain about me judging you based on your words...

    It's not as easy as you make it out to be. As you already pointed out: racism spreads like a desease. You are likely to get infected in your childhood. Spreading racistic sentiments and propaganda, especially to children is not a crime, yet it should be punished.
    Freedom of speech does not mean that you can go around, spreading your propaganda everywhere. Your freedom ends where the freedom of someone else begins.
    As I said; the worst part about racists is not them being racists. It's that they are everywhere and can't shut up about their oppinions.

    Again, this is not how freedom of speech works. Freedom of speech only protects you from the state censoring you before voicing your oppinion. Freedom of speech doesn't apply in your everyday life. Freedom of speech doesn't protect you from being banned on a forum that is run by a private person. It doesn't protect you from getting your comments deleted on facebook.
    This is a general misconception.

    Trolling on Youtube is a thing. Nobody reads Youtube comments because of that. Why would you?

    The same could be said about the quoted comment itself aswell. It's easy to just say "they call me a racist because I'm white, not because of what I said". It's the same bullshit strawman that you make them guilty of.

    Have you noticed that this is exactly what you do? "I'm not a racist, these guys are!"
    You just basicly point the finger at someone else that is worse. You even said that you hate racists.

    Exposing racism sometimes requires going into detail. As I said, subtle racists tend to be incredibly verbose and defendant in their oppinions, which in turn requires dismantling the posts thoroughly. Just like I did with yours.
    And btw, I didn't immediately accuse you of being racist when I read your post. This insight came only on the second half, in which it became very obvious. I was actually very shocked when I read this part of your post, as I have lots of respect for you as a community member.

    Just because that is how the world works doesn't mean it's not racism or bad.
    200 years ago, slavery was "how the world works". Our world is not perfect, contrary to popular western belief.



    That was just something I wanted to comment on before I start. So, without further delay...
    ... here is my top 10 of your racist statements:

    #1
    This sentence implies that all immigrants are serial killers or drug dealers and the exception to the rule is that they are not. However, I give you the benefit of a doubt here and say you didn't intend this implication.
    A more obvious implication, however, is that all immigrants who don't pay taxes are a threat to a country.

    #2
    You accuse immigrants of being rapists, criminals and thieves. And you even ascribe intent.
    Why would anyone who intends to do crimes travel thousands of miles to a far away country with a way stronger executive than their homeland? That makes absolutely zero sense! If rape is more common and less punished in islamic states (as you postulate), why would you travel to a country where it is considered and judged as a serious crime?
    This is probably the most racist comment I have ever seen in my entire life, simply because it's obviously wrong from the premise alone.

    #3
    So all immigrants have no sense of what is lawful behaviour? Racist bullshit! These immigrants are men, women, children. They despise war and violence in the same way we do. That's why they flee. If they loved crime and war, they would stay in their country where there is plenty of it.

    #4
    Yeah... they come here as violent predators seeking easy prey. Sure. So that's why they endure all the hardships of their travel, pay the smugglers with their last coin and endure being sheltered like a prisoneer for months.
    Sorry, but again, racist bullshit.

    #5
    No, they are not. Muslim immigrants are not more likely to perform rape crimes than any other demographic.
    You know which demographic is the most likely to rape people? fathers and uncles. You know which demographic is the statistically most likely rape victim? Children of their own family.
    Rape against foreigners is the exception. Rape happens the most within the family or close relatives. And yet we don't blame every father of being a rapist.

    #6
    Again, implying that a minority is just here to slack off. Why? Why couldn't you just say that they want a better life and be done with it? Why do you have to garner every sentence with "but there's also those"? It's like you are extremely obsessed with crime.
    You don't go to your friends and say "Hello, you there of the white population, of which 10% are known to be criminals". Why do people feel the need to constantly point out that there are criminals within a certain demographic even if it doesn't even matter in context?
    Besides, it's extremely illogical to assume that some are here to slack off. Traveling thousands of miles with only the minimum to survive is not exactly something you would do if you wanted to slack off.

    #7
    False. You do realize that there are huge differences between muslim countries, do you? Saudi Arabia is one of the riches states in the world. Libanon is one of the poorest. Turkey is arabic, yet incredibly western and diverse in culture.
    "Muslim countries" are as different as the US, canada and brasil. A religion does not define a nation. A religion does not cause crime.
    Have you been to Israel before? No? I have. And I can tell you that you won't see a lot of women running around veiled there, even if 50% of it's population are muslims. Why? Because there is such a major difference between cities and villages alone, that any generalization about any culture based on religion is completely baseless.
    It's like saying all germans eat Weißwurst and Sauerkraut. Or that all americans are fat.

    #8
    This is as racist as racism can be. Also, it's not a fact, it's uneducated and just plain wrong.

    #9
    Popular racist statement: when you are religious, you are a fanatic that takes everything for face-value. You wouldn't believe how many muslims are very moderate in their beliefs. Besides, nowhere is it written in the coran that rape is acceptable. As you seem obsessed with rape in these countries, I just wanted to specifically point that out.
    Criminals there get judged by law, regardless of their religious beliefs. And let me tell you that: raping someone is not something that is encouraged by very religious muslims either. What you see is a twisted perversion of faith. A twisted perversion that happens in all religions, including holier-than-thou christianity. Right... child rape among the catholic church is a thing, huh?... And I see nobody running around defending this as "religious behaviour".

    #10
    Why are there even reasons not to allow refugees in? They are humans from the same planet. They are fathers, mothers, children. In fact, 30% of the refugees arriving in europe are underage (15-17).
    How can there even be a reason against taking them in? Just how? How can it ever be wrong to share a tiny fraction of our wealth with other people?
     
  11. Ash

    Ash

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    I really appreciate the effort you're all putting into this discussion, and I'm thoroughly enjoying reading all of your replies. As a chair of MT debates I would like to point out that the longest reply isn't necessarily the "winner" -- indeed, there is not necessarily a winner of any debate -- so let's try to formalise as much of our discussion as possible into nice and cohesive responses. I read enough student essays that stretch what they're trying to say just to hit an arbitrary word count, let's not repeat this mistake here.
     
  12. oger-lord

    oger-lord

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    I am also from Germany and want to present my point of view.
    Immgiration in Europe and immigration in the USA are completly different topic and should not be mixed together, I only write about Europe.
    I am a bit in a hurry, please forgive me my spelling and grammar mistakes.

    Politician
    The main point is: The politicans do not want to help the people because they are nice, they want them as cheap labors.
    That million people were fleeing syria started 2 years ago in 2013. Everyone who is well-informed regarding the civil war knew that it will not stop but instead it will get worse. Even the main 4 groups (governement, opposition, kurds, ISIS) are divided into many subgroups.
    This means the politicans had 2 years to make a good plan that helps all people. But instead nothing happens.
    Even today there is no practical plan how the refugees should learn german and be integrated into our society.
    Everything should be done by volunteers and they hope that everything will go right.

    Another important point is that people act like it is normal to have a flow of refugees trough Hungary, Croatia and other EU countries altough it is clear that this countries are not able to organize this movement. It would be much better if the refugees could apply for assylum in for example turkey, after two days they would make the decision weather they recieve assylum and than they would bring them to Germany or other EU countries.
    This way the refugees would not lose all their money to criminals and no one would die trying to come to europe.

    Assylum Seeker
    Besides it is important to differ between the refugees and the assylum seekers. In the first quarter 2015 50% of the assylum seekers were coming from european countries that are poor and do not have economic growths (Kosovo,Albania) and only 25% from Syria.
    Maybe this has changed, but there are 1 billion people (1.000.000.000) in this world who live in poverty. It cannot be the solution that everyone comes to Germany, instead Germany needs to help these countries were the people have lost hope for a better future. They have their right to have an own culture and we should not bring them to Germany and impose our culture upon them.

    Media
    At last one of the biggest problem we have are the big media organizations who control the public opion and cause many problems.
    You cannot present muslims as potential terrorist for years (we remember Charlie Hebdo janurary 2015) and suddenly millions of muslims people are coming into your country and you expect that no one is scared. They dont present different points of views, but instead make one-sided propaganda. If the number of assylum seekers changes every day (400.000, 600.00, 800.000 now 1 million), people are unsettled. There are many people with low wages, pensions are shortended, this people are wondering why suddenly Germany has so much money, but not for them.
    Besides anyone who criticizes something is considered rightwing->Nazi->Evil. This is a huge problem because many people think that it is bad to talk to Nazis. But only when people are talking together problems can be solved.
    So either people stop to express their opinion because they fear to be called a Nazi or for example people who are scared of foreign infiltration do not change their opinion because no one is talking to them.
    Finally we already have immigrants in Germany who are not integrated into our society and they mostley come from the middle east.
    But it is not their fault that no one cared for them and that they never recieved a "Culture of Welcome".
    The protection of the constitution have statistics that show that in my federal state there are more immigrants who are extremist than left and right extremists together.
    The solution to this is not to become a racist and use this minority to argue that immigration is bad, but to see the necessity to act and form a society where everyone has prospects.
    Because this is the reason for all extrimism and not because they are "evil".
     
  13. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    No worries, I already said what I wanted to say on this and have nothing more to add.
    Everything else I will post will be on-topic.

    Also, I apologize to TLI-Inferno if my last post sounded rude and clarify the following:
    As I said, I have lots of respect for you as a community member.
    Just because I don't share your sentiments against refugees and immigrants does not mean I don't respect you as a community member. Outside of this thread, everything is cool to me.

    I 100% agree with everything you said here. The real criminals here are the politicians ignoring the problem, just because it wasn't in the mainstream media back then so they couldn't instrumentalize it for more votes.

    The numbers have shifted a lot lately. New numbers state almost 50% of the refugees being from Syria. Also, almost every asylum seeker from Albania and Kosovo will get sent back to their home country (only 5% of asylum seekers from these countries get accepted). So just because a lot of people come from there does not mean that a lot of people are allowed to stay.

    Show these statistics please. If you do such claims, you have to back them up with trustworthy sources.
     
  14. oger-lord

    oger-lord

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  15. InfernalTater

    InfernalTater

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    Like I said before, you have no idea what the United States is like. In the United States, most people actually think that only white people are racist; and a lot of people think that ALL white people are racist. You don't even have to say anything for people to assume that you are racist; just look white, and they will make assumptions.

    This is precisely the issue: People like you who think that just because of 1800's slavery, that white people are the only racists. Racism has happened all over the world. There are racists everywhere. Every race has been the victim of, and the perpetrator of, genocide, and slavery, on a massive scale.

    But because people like you think that white people are more racist than everyone else, instead of realizing that all races are equally capable of racism, this actually has the opposite effect. The result is that racism against white people is accepted and often even encouraged, and nobody will stand up for a white person who falls victim to racism, because it is assumed that they deserve it, just because they are white.



    And here you are again, being racist, assuming that just because I am white, that I have never fallen victim to racism. You have no clue. People of EVERY skin color can fall victim to racism. My family was the first white family to move to a particular county that had no white people. We were not racist at all; we didn't care about skin color. I honestly didn't even know what racism WAS until I was taught what it was. But because we were white, everyone around us assumed that we were racist. I was attacked constantly throughout elementary school. I was thrown into a concrete room, the door was shut, the lights were turned off, and I was slammed into the concrete floor, repeatedly, for about 30 minutes, while all of the children in all of the gym classes that were there held the doors shut. It's impossible that the teachers didn't know what was going on; they had to have noticed all of their students not participating in activities, and that about 60 of them were at the edge of the gym, holding doors shut, with lots of banging. The teachers knew what was going on, because it happened all the time, to the few white kids in the school, and they didn't care. I received a concussion on multiple occasions. Every time something like this happened to me, I would be sent to the office, where the racist assistant principal would do nothing to the people who attacked me, and suspend me for a week for defending myself.

    Sometimes parents would even call the police to the school to help their children who were being attacked, but the police were friends with the administration. The administration would say "There's nothing going on", and the police would leave without investigating.

    Despite being an all-A/B student every year, I never received a certificate for it. They would award certificates to everyone else, even people with D's, calling them all up, and leaving me sitting alone, with everyone always thinking that I was stupid because I didn't receive any certificates.

    I moved out of there when I was 11, so all of these things were done to a child.

    As a child, my mother was attacked during riots because she was white. Her earrings were torn out of her ears and she was beaten with chains by adults who were racist against white people.

    Don't tell me that racism against white people doesn't exist. It does exist. People like you who insist that it doesn't are the reason that racism against white people is so prevalent. You act like racism against white people is justified because of white people enslaving others in the past. I was not alive during ANY of that. Why should I have to pay for crimes I never committed just because I have the same color of skin as others who did such things? Isn't that racism?

    The only way to stop racism is to fight ALL racism. If you ignore all victims in a specific ethnic group, you are being racist, and you are creating racism.

    I am thoughtful enough not to allow my personal experiences to turn me into a racist. But not everyone is. The average person, after being put through what I've been through, would become a racist. Racism is a vicious cycle because victims of racism are often turned into racists themselves. If you ignore racism against white people because you think it's not important, then that will result in more people being racist against white people; because they think it's okay to be racist against white people. This will then result in white racists being produced by the racism they experience. Racism is not being fought; it is just being turned around into a different direction. The only way to stop it is to address ALL of it. Everyone needs to be represented equally. If you are racist while fighting racism, then you are not doing any good.

    Sorry for not replying to the rest of your post, but I really don't have the time. Until someone else responds, I might occasionally edit this post to respond to more parts of your post.

    I never once said anything about the people assuming I'm racist being only black people. You made that assumption yourself, likely because you are racist and do not realize it.

    No, in the example you were refuting, where I said a sentence including the word "neighbor", and everyone around looked at me hatefully thinking that I had said the 'n' word, the people around me were many different ethnicities, including white and black, everyone eager to prove their stance against racism by hammering me with hatred, without caring whether or not I was actually racist; they simply assumed that I was racist because I was white. If I was not white, and I said "neighbor", nobody would assume I'd said anything wrong. I have never said anything about black people specifically, because racism is not an issue of any specific race; it happens to everyone, from everyone, and people are even capable of being racist against their own ethnic group. I am talking about racism against white people not because I believe that it is more important, but simply because racism against white people is something people like to pretend doesn't exist; they like to sweep it under the rug because it doesn't fit into their world view that white people are racists who need to compensate for the crimes of their past ancestors.

    Racism happens to EVERYONE. If you keep pretending it doesn't happen to white people, you are just being racist yourself, and as much as you think you're fighting against racism, you're only perpetuating it. Racism against ANY race affects ALL races. Despite common belief, even when it is against white people, it still hurts people who are not white, because as white people are treated like racists by default, many white people actually become racist, either in offense of the accusations, or defensively, against their own people, as they try to prove that they are not racist by being racist against their own people instead. This happens to people of every race. I mention white people just because people like to pretend it doesn't happen to white people.

    When the hell did I say "All" immigrants? I have said repeatedly that most immigrants are just looking for a better life. The vast majority are normal people. I would say that violent criminals account for less than 5% of immigrants; this is not a statistic but rather an estimate based on no facts whatsoever; but I would be very surprised if violent criminals did account for more than 5%. However, as low of a percentage as they may be, this is still a higher percentage of violent criminals than a general population, simply because they come from a place of chaos where violence is everywhere. When you are exposed to a lot of violence, you are more likely to be violent. It doesn't mean that EVERYONE will be violent. It doesn't even mean that the majority will be violent. It only means that more will be violent than would have been if they had come from a place of peace. This has nothing to do with ethnicity whatsoever; this is about human nature. Even in America; if you come from a ghetto, you will likely have had exposure to all sorts of things, whether you were involved or not. This will have an effect on who you are. This will cause you to be different from someone that was not from a ghetto. Many people are improved by hardship. But many people are also worsened by it. Some people will be strengthened. Some people will be weakened. Some people will realize why morality is important. Some people will abandon morality entirely to survive. There will be more bad people. There will be more good people. There will be less drones. It doesn't mean that everyone from a tough place is bad; but more of them will be bad, just as more of them will be good. They have experienced more life, and they have discovered their true nature, whether it is good, or bad. Where people come from has an effect on who they are, and if you think that's racist, you're letting your ideals cloud your view of reality.
    You keep generalizing everything that I say. I made it very clear in my post that not ALL muslims will be a certain way. But they will be more likely to be a certain way, than people who are not muslims, simply because of what they believe in. It doesn't mean that the majority is a certain way. Even if 2% of people in one group are a certain way, and 1% of people in another group are a certain way, the first group still has more people who are that way. What you believe affects who you are. Not everyone who believes a specific thing are the same way; but they will, on average, be different, based on what they believe, compared to other people who believe different things.

    You are shaped by the world around you, the people around you, and the beliefs around you. Some people with a strong sense of morality will bring their morality from within, but the vast majority of people are sheep and their sense of morality will be determined by what the people around them say is right or wrong.

    Just look at people throughout history. Throughout history, people's opinion on what is right, and what is wrong, is constantly changing. There are only two explanations: Either A, people were born genetically different and this resulted in them deciding different things were right and wrong, or B, ideas became so mainstream during each era that it influenced the opinions of the majority. Which do you think is more likely?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
  16. GhostThruster

    GhostThruster

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    fair enough. as said, i'm not the most informed person.

    i think you're missing my point. i never said immigrants (in the long run) are an economic detriment, nor did i say they would 'turn the culture of a nation upside-down'. my point is, if one "[doesn't] consider the refugee crisis as an actual crisis" (no, i'm not taking this out of context before you mention it) then they are suffering from plain hubris.

    i have said that multiculturalism has worked in my nation. but australia is a pretty young nation whose culture and national identity is much more malleable, and consequently can afford to be more inclusive. germany, while technically not much older than australia, has much more history and tradition going back. pretending that letting close to a million refugees in, all with a vastly different ethno-cultural background, won't cause socio-political and economic problems is stupid.

    that said, you have a point about relative population sizes. perhaps i am lacking in perspective, thinking it is more problematic than it is (since 800,000 is 3.5% of my nation's population).
     
  17. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    You are looking at the wrong numbers;
    The expected number of islamist members is slightly higher than left and right wing extremists as stated on page 37 (8000 vs roughly 7000).
    However, the actual number of crimes commited by right and left wing extremists is 3 times higher than those of islamists (Page 17 and 22).
    They are more, but they are way less likely to commit crimes.

    The relative numbers are what matter the most. This is why germany tries to enforce an EU wide solution with a distribution system, knowing perfectly well that it will have to take in the majority of refugees anyway (since germany has the highest population of western europe). But at least it would mean that spain and france can not bail out of their responsibility either.

    Also, I recommend watching the video someone else posted before: even if we integrate all 4 million refugees into europe, the share of muslim immigrants in europe would rise from only 4% to 5%. Hardly a change that will have any impact on culture whatsoever, imho.

    Sorry for cutting the rest of the quote, but I don't want another post explosion.
    I never said that racism against white people doesn't exist. I only said that it is way less likely. Minorities are always oppressed. If you are a white minority, then obviously you will be subject of racism.
    That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that there is no point to justify your racism with the racism you've endure. Bad people exist in any demographic.
    Have you considered that not all black people in your school back then were perpetrators? Violence in school is mostly commited by a small number of students. Unfortunately, most of them get away with it because they are children (Have I stated that I despise the lax punishment of underage crime? No? I did it now then), but the point is: a lot of them were probably not in agreement with what happened buttoo scared to do anything to help.
    Children mostly aren't racist. They are idiots that just pick up whatever they want to excuse their bullying.
    In your story, the problem wasn't the racism. It is the corrupted administrative of your school and police, denying to abide the law (which is a crime, btw).

    I never said ignore racism. I said exactly the opposite: point your finger towards racism, but don't justify your racism just because someone else is racist aswell. That's what you do and it's the wrong way. You can't fight fire with fire, despite popular belief. You fight fire with water.

    No, just no. For the thousand time. Back this up if you make such claims, goddamnit!

    So, how does that have anything to do with the refugee crisis? Syria wasn't a violent country before the war. It was actually quite prosperous and generous, taking in tenthousands of Iraque refugees themselves during the Iraq war (a war that the US started... did the US take in Iraq refugees? Nope!).
    And now we deny refugees from a country that was giving shelter to other refugees before, in wars caused by OUR governments the same help? Don't you see how absurd that is?

    Also, this claim is still baseless. It is not supported by any actual numbers. Crime is not more or less prevalent among refugees, no matter where they come from.

    How do I generalize if I just point out where you are wrong?
    And you are wrong. Muslims are NOT more likely to "be a certain way because of what they believe in". Back this up!
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
  18. InfernalTater

    InfernalTater

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    Religions teach people to believe certain things and act in certain ways. It teaches them that certain things are wrong.

    Which actions are wrong are, for the most part, similar in all religions, however the degrees to which different actions are wrong, vary significantly.

    How significantly an action is considered wrong by the people around you will affect how likely you are to take such action.

    You are more likely to do something if it is less frowned upon by people around you (unless you do it for the sake of being rebellious). Even if it is frowned upon, you are still more likely to do it than if you were in a place with people that frown MORE upon the same action.

    In this way, religions shape culture and culture shapes people. This means that your religion will affect who you are. When you change to a different religion (if you genuinely believe in it), this is accompanied by a change in yourself. You could have changed religions as a result of a change in yourself, have changed yourself throughout the process of changing your beliefs, or have changed yourself as a result of your new religion, but regardless, a change in your beliefs will cause or be caused by a change in yourself; these two things are codependent and one cannot happen without the other.

    I am not saying that all Muslims are a certain way. We are all individuals. However we are affected by what we believe and by what people around us believe. While many of us will continue to believe in our own set of morals no matter what is around us, there are many others whose sense of morality is easily dictated by those around them.

    Islam teaches many things to its believers. Like all religions, some of what it teaches is good, and some is bad. Humans are not perfect and so no human invention will be perfect; no manmade religion will be perfect, or any way of life for that matter. If you subscribe to a specific way of life, you are shaping yourself to fit it. How much you change is determined by you as an individual, but you will change; the only thing that varies is how MUCH you will adapt. You might barely change at all. You might change completely. But you will change, even if it is not noticeable.

    People are different based on where they come from because that affects the life they lived, and the life they lived affects who they become. Every part of the world has different problems, and the people from each part will have different strengths and weaknesses. If millions of American refugees were flooding into other countries with a vastly different culture, you'd likely see similar issues as the people of the two different cultures have two different sets of moral values and this will cause clashing.

    Like I said before, I am not arguing against accepting refugees. I have made my stance on this clear many times; I believe that refugees should be accepted into countries and that overall they will provide a benefit to the countries they enter as they work hard to build new lives, thus contributing to the economy.

    I just also accept that there are negative impacts as well. Whenever anything significant happens, there will always be positive and negative effects, no matter how positive in nature it may be. If 1,000,000 people's lives are saved, there will be an overwhelming positive effect from this, but there will still be negative effects. Some of those people were bad people who will live on to do bad things. The chance of all 1,000,000 people never harming anyone is simply too low to be considered possible. That doesn't mean you should let them die; of course they should be saved. There is no doubt that they should be saved. But it is also true that saving them will have unforeseen negative consequences, however minimal they may be compared to the positive effects. Most people, like you, ignore everything that doesn't take their own side of the argument. You believe that just because it is right to do something, that there are no negative impacts of it. There are negative and positive impacts of everything, good or bad. To qualify as the right thing to do, all it takes is for the good to outweigh the bad; not for the bad to entirely not exist.

    I have not specified what "Way" muslims are, because it is simply incalculable as people are all individuals and are all different. However to deny that it has any effect on a person whatsoever is to let your ideals cloud your view of reality. To insist that your religion does not affect who you are is the same as asserting that your beliefs, customs, and experiences don't affect you. If you weren't affected by what you're taught, then we wouldn't need parents or schools.
     
  19. Zwiebelchen

    Zwiebelchen

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    This is going nowhere.
    I've said everything I wanted to say on this matter, so there is no point for me to go on. You ignore my requests for sources anyway, so we're moving in circles.
     
  20. Ash

    Ash

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    InfernalTater, your argument really doesn't hold as much ground simply for the ambiguity. "There will be unforeseen negative consequences of saving refugees" is similar to saying "there will be unforeseen negative consequences of increasing the population". Why should we care, so what? These are questions that need answering.b Please can you address this, and additionally provide the evidence Zwiebelchen asks that supports your claims?

    Also, once again a reminder that the length of your post is in no way related to the quality.
     
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