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I Feel Sorry for you Americans...

Discussion in 'Map Development' started by Redoubt, Jul 17, 2005.

  1. Draqz

    Draqz

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    You know, if you want to go back and forth and refute arguments. Its usualy a good idea to have some evidence to support your claim. You're first point had a claim, but it was incorrect:

    you say that your role is a lone one, which is incorrect, at least for the first half of the game. Your job is to sneak up behind other heroes while you are permanently invisable and take them by surprise with help from your teammates slowing them with your cloud, if you couldn't take him out with 2 other heroes, then your team was either fighting him right next to a tower, or was not doing their job properly. In addition, Rikki maru is not an early game hero, where as enigma is. Late in the game, Enigma becomes significatly more weak, and riki maru significantly stronger. This is usualy the case with agility and inteligence based heroes.


    oh no I understand perfectly. But what on earth does that have anything to do with dota?

    perhaps an example? the map looks pretty clean to me. please correct me if I am wrong, with a convincing argument.

    ok, so tell me. What items do you deem unbalanced and what items do you deem useless? because really, you shouldn't be buying the same item everytime, you need different items for different situations depedning on what hero you are and hat heroes you are up against. For example, you should have gotten a ring of health with rikki maru if you ere up against a ranged inteligence heor like enigma. Enigma should have no buisness killing you with invis and a ring of health. The ring of health will let your level up quickly, enabling you to stay in battle longer and soak up more experience.

    why should I believe your original statement if you have no evidence to support your claim?

    If you know where the recipie is, and what items you need for it, you can combine your items in town before you are done healing. Infact, you can be working on your different combine items and build them slowly throughout the game, gaining partial benefits from the components until you have enough money to complete the combined item.

    I guess not. However, at least I back up what I say with a valid point.

    I was refering to your use of "stratergy" as opposed to "strategy"

    Again, those heroes are balanced, you just don't seem to realize that different heroes are more powerful at different times in the game. Generaly speaking, early, mid, and late. Riki maru is a Late game hero, where as enigma is an early to mid game hero. Meaning, you wont be very successful going up against enigma early game. next time, try swithcing lanes with someone and fight some weak ranged agi hero.

    try joining non-public games, and see how well you do with all your "imbalanced" heroes. I also find it interesting that you say that dota has a steep learning curve, and the item systems is cumbersome, yet you say that you can become good at dota after 2 games. you seem to be contradicting yourself.

    If you don't know what those are, then it is fairly obvious you don't understand how dota works on a larger scale and therefore your acusations and claims that dota is a horrible game are unfounded through lack of expereience with the game.

    I agree, I dislike flamewars, so far this has been a civil conversation. If you do not wish to respond, that is fine.

    Ok, If you find satisfaction in bashing dota with other dota haters without any opposition, then I apologize and I will leave you to your dota hating thread. However, realize that this thread was posted on a "maps" forums which reads "Want to share your great map? Come here to discuss a map or get general map and triggering help." I am disscussing a great map, but out of courtousy to you, I will not post in your thread anymore. Unless you would like to discuss this map further, which I would be more than happy to do. Because I am a mapper myself, I would love to know why you think the terrain is crap and messy, and how you think it could be improved.
     
  2. Rui

    Rui

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    About that discussion of banlist, I will give my opinion. I've heard that banlist bans you from that server BUT i've been banlisted about 10 times, but I could always play dota. If it bans me in THAT host, then let me laugh.

    -Rui
     
  3. Draqz

    Draqz

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    I agree Rui, I don't like the fact that he does not give credit for borrowed materials. But those spells and abilities are still great, and the map is still a good map. I think that dota shoudl give credit where credit is due, but that does no bring down the quality of the map. If anything, those great spells improve its quality.

    You make some very good points Rui. I agree that leoric can turn into a monster, no doubt. But he can still be stopped. His reincarnation has become more balanced now, through the dota team's numourous updates in order to add new content and fix balance issues. Now leoric's reincarnation has a mana cost to it, and if you don't hace enough mana at your time of death, you will not revive.

    Lucy, I don't think he is that imbalanced, his melee attacks are very slow, most people play him as a caster, the only thing he has going for him is his doom, I don't think its overpowered, its just easier for people to use since you dont' have to think to much when you use it "point click doom". The ability itself however, isn't imbalanced. and it doens't kill a hero for sure, you ned to take into account all the life regen and armor/magic resistance that character has. not to mention, that doom has one of the longest refresh timers in the game.

    Sven is a late game hero, no doubt about it, he is a beast. The way you have to deal with this guy is to harass him early game and do your best to make sure he doesn't level. Ontop of that, getting a scythe of vice and other disables will help emensely against this guy. again however, sven is another one of those easy heroes to play. Other heroes are much more difficult to play, but can be just as dangerous to the other team.


    I will say this right now, that dota is not perfect, there are imbalances, yes. But Dota is the single most upkept and updated map that I know about, with a team of people who continualy balance the game, adding content, and making it more interesting with more heroes. No game could ever obtain "true balance" unless each team were given identical resources. Which, in the warcraft world is impossible. The job of a the game designer is to make it as balanced as they possibly can, I think dota does a good job of this.
     
  4. Draqz

    Draqz

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    the way it works, is the host adds you to a local banlist (meaning that you will be flagged if you join his game again) however, the banlist program allows you to download other host's banlist and use them. So if you get your name on one banlist, you may end up on several others through banlist sharing. In reality though, it is pretty ineffective. Its used mostly as a deterant for leavers, but I think that deterant has run out lol.
     
  5. ragingspeedhorn

    ragingspeedhorn

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    ye people dont really care about banlist, its pretty useless...
     
  6. Leopard

    Leopard

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    The one that i hate in dota is if a player gain more kills at the beginning of game, he obviously will own, and if a player had bad performance on the beginning, he obviously will lose. There are small chance of counter attack to happen if a team already owned by the other. That's lack of intensity.
     
  7. Eusira

    Eusira

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    Only a marginal amount of Dota's material was ever worth even glancing at. And that very material wasn't his. I recall something from about 4 months ago where Guinsoo was failing college just to make an effort to update his map. And his update? "Many of the popular heros have been nerfed," in a positive manner.

    Recipes, only somewhat impressive. How the fool managed to create 60 or so triggers just to create items is beyond me.

    And take this for example. The heroes in this wretched game tend to kill each other in a matter of seconds. Seconds, I tell you. Nothing is supposed to die so quickly. Not to mention bonuses to about 100 damage. I severely doubt Guinsoo has any idea of what an RTS is about. Warcraft is not an RPG, at least 1-3. If I didn't know any better, I think the idiot didn't have any idea how much even 15 damage does. An average battle in an AoS game lasts around 45 seconds. Let's say the hero is level 6, and already does around 40 damage a second. 40x45= somewhere over 1,600. Add 15 damage, and that's 55 damage a second, times 45. That's even more. But adding 100 damage means you would singe-handedly slay a whole army in those 45 seconds. And RTS game is not about instant kills an in an RPG. It's about a longer time, where chaos reigns and you must manage your forces correctly.

    And honestly, the majority of the community that plays the game is even worse. Half of them act like pubescent drunks that think they rule the world, mocking and such. And then you have the game engine itself, which acts like the stupidest of CS servers, forcing you to download 500 kb of sound files for their specialized versions of UT2003 sounds. Then you have those people who just ban and ban many others.

    Even worse, is the making of LoaP. I will say this again: Warcraft 3 is an RTS game. It is something where you manage an army anddestroy your foe. If you want to make a game of the Sims, you better make a damn good replica. Not some half-assed thing with missing features because you slacked off at a night party and ended up at the hospital the next morning.

    And onto map copying. People think that because they change one JASS word in some mumbo jumbo they don't know, and end up causing the game to crash, they think they are a genius, release the map under their name, and believe that they will become popular. In fact, they are just most likely people with no social lives and have to live with the mask of a screen name, sitting there on the computer trying to gain any sort of social status in an electronic society where anyone can be anything. This little ad here could inject you with 500 kilograms of pure spyware, when it just appeared to be some game cheat site for the most lewd and violent of games.

    What even pisses me more off, is where I live. I'm a Canadian, and moved here to America, only to watch, for almost 7 years now, society deteriorate into wasteland. You have all these juvenile dilenquents that need to be arrested and persecuted for life, so that our school can actually have better ratings. In fact, if I didn't "transfer" into a different district, I was gonna have to learn from a school that didn't have a certified english program, a multitude of possible drug users and gang members, and much, much more.

    And Draqz, that's your opinion. If you don't like how we "bash" DotA, then stay out of the thread. We might be exaggerating a slight bit about the problems of the game, but those parts of the game are what aggravate us.

    And to the person who made this thread, it is true. When I still had played warcraft, over half of the game were DotA, LoaP and such, and those good games like EotA had smarter, more strategic, and a more polite playing community. Dota just has a bunch of random maniacs whose only desire is to kill stuff, and get a false euphoria. Not to mention all the flaming that goes around when someone picks the best heros.

    It was be a miracle if DotA got a more professionalized staff, most likely consisting of members from this site, because a more kindred if you will, society would be more aware of the needs, not some recruited person out of a google website search.
     
  8. Draqz

    Draqz

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    yes, it is my opinion. And its not that I have a problem with people who bash dota. I just don't like blind bashing without reason. Tell me why it sucks and then we can go from there.

    I have heard several arguments to why the map is bad, and most have some merrit. I just don't like to see "yeah i hate dota! it suckzorz! imba imba imba!!!!"

    What it all boils down to is preference. If you like longer encounters and battles, then maybe dota isn't a map for you. But just because you don't like it, does not make it a poor map. I still think it holds its own as a balanced and fun game that takes skill and practice to get good at.

    Take music for example, I dislike most country/bluegrass music, but when I see someone play some bluegrass on a banjo, I simply can't deny the skill it takes to play bluegrass and that it is indeed a respectbale musicform. I can say things like "this music is too fast paced and far to clangy for my tastes" but I can't say that the music "sucks".
     
  9. dchark

    dchark

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    The wrongful stealing of spells, models, and skins is not right. An absolute disgrace to the community and a slap in the face of those who so willingly submitted their creations believing that they would be rightfully used. Stupid and ignorant are the players of DotA.
     
  10. Teh_Ephy

    Teh_Ephy

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    while i will concede that in DotA it is possible to beat someone using combos that are waaay imba without using an imba combo of ur own, there are too many of said imba combos, not to mention that the despicable juggernaut that is DotA does not make way for good games

    anyways, here's some reasons DotA is imba
    1 - first time i played DotA Allstars, someone on sentinel was a hero that would kill my little transparent warden girl WITHOUT MY BEING ABLE TO SEE SAID HERO. i'm relatively sure he was more than a bit past the towers and he would snipe me for INSTANT OHKO. also, i was 100% TRANSPARENT. you have to be smarter than the average bear to not only notice but figure out that a free-standing shadow = warden girl
    2 - TOWER RUSHING. AoS maps aren't supposed to have towers with only 1300ish hp, ANY heavy melee can take that out in first wave of troops! in ANY wortwhile AoS game (Advent of the Zenith, Land of Legends II, even tiny quick Water War - Submerged) YOU CANNOT TOWER RUSH.
    in Advent you don't want to go NEAR a tower before level 10 unless you're one badass melee hero, and in LoL II the towers' hp increase by 150 or so every certain time interval. the exception would be that in Water War - Submerged you can are two items on the map that give +10 (maybe +20) stackable armour bonus.

    now for some stuff about DotA hosts
    1 - i saw WAAAAYY too many games with DL = BAN or NO DL when i first started playing warcraft, and even now i wouldn't be surprised if dlers were told to go online & find it before recieving the boot
    2 - "DOTA (version) NO NUBS" or PROS ONLY
    well wtf u were a nub once how did u get pro? by joining pros only games and hoping they wouldn't notice you using ur hero as a hero and not a weapon?
    if u actually want "pros" that don't use nub combos and u put PROS ONLY in the game name, ur not going to step very far in the direction you're hoping for.

    now for some stuff on what you were arguing about
    1 - "steep learning curve" implies that you actually intend to learn how to play the game and derive ACTUAL enjoyment from it. figuring out which heros pwn ass does not qualify as "learning"
    2 - spellcasters ARE NOT MEANT TO TAKE DOWN OTHER HEROES. if a single spellcaster is taking down more than one hero and at least one of the heros isn't nubing off THAT SPELLCASTER SHOULD DIE, TOWER OR NO. the towers in DotA are laughably weak, especially when you can have an ASSASSIN hero rushing them. i know from personal experience that single spellcasters DO NOT MAKE GOOD HERO KILLERS. hero killer spellcaster = imba UNLESS said spellcaster has one wicked long stealth time or is particularly hard to click on.
    3 - the diff between blacklist and banlist is that ppl that use banlist do NOT BOTHER to check up on their grammar, spelling, w/e aspect of the english language. this is more of a shot at DotA hosts
    4 - if you can walk back into the SEPARATED hero selection area, it's a messy map.
    5 - the hero that killed my transparent warden girl had one badass bow thing, and i think he was a rifleman. so even when he wasn't ultying me to death he was killing me before i could get close enough to scratch his not-so-shiny cloak
    6 - haha problem with the recipe thing - IF YOU KNOW WHERE THE RECIPE AND WHAT ITEMS YOU NEED FOR IT. "Learning Curve".
    7 - in one game, i learned that there is no "strategy" in DotA, only tower rushing and avoiding bigger heros. if you call that strategy, then i guess i'm wrong.
    8 - if a hero is imbalanced at the beginning of the game, it's not getting any weaker, and isn't going to die unelss OTHER heroes become unbalanced at the end
    9 - see #1 about the learning curve.
    10 - about needing to know about stuff, the BEST items are off in hidey holes in the middle of the forest and are a good 20-60 seconds away from fights. and some of those items are required for the Üßë® H4x0rx item combos.

    i don't mind that DotA is popular, i mind that it is the ONLY GAME PPL JOIN/HOST
    like i'll host LoL II and DotA nubs that use imba combos in DotA will say "DOTA CLONE DOTA CLONE" a few mintues into the game.
    A) no it IS NOT a DotA clone, not as many imba heroes, not as many imba combos, you can't rush towers, no "combining" for uber items, badass combos are STOPPABLE as well as possible to execute without pwning ass, creeps are there to stop u from doing things and not to make you giggle, people don't blatantly rip off LoL II and say it's their own map, LoL II actually requires more than running from bigger heroes, LoL II has a sniper on sentinel but he's not going to kill you every time you're within shooting distance
    B) LoL II has better heroes, only a few of which are imba that have NOT been fixed the latest in version (i think 1.24 is the latest i have)
    C) LoL II is different on too many levels to be a DotA clone

    DotA is poisoning the minds of retards on BNet! as everyone here should know, there are a LOT of people a few points short of 100 on BNet...
     
  11. Ki

    Ki

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    To some extent, I agree with Draqz. I do not like DotA myself because it has become trite over the course of my wc3 history, but that doesn't mean the game itself is bad. I see it as a solid game, obviously with flaws due to the immense selection of heroes.

    I don't even think Blizzard could balance that amount of characters. Let's look at the facts, Blizzard has had some trouble balancing just 12 heroes in RoC. Anyone else remember the Mountain King's ridiculous Storm Bolt damage and stun?

    What's worse about this debate is people will always claim there is a hero imbalance somewhere. Have they themselves ever try using the character of which they thought to be too powerful? Some have, and those are the ones who are entitled to making a point. I'd venture to say that most just take other people's word for it and assume an imbalance when they get slaughtered in combat.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with DotA.

    Everyone has the right to debate.

    Are you aware of how many other games have stolen material without creditting authors of their work? Apparently not. DotA just seems to be the target of it since it is the most popular. Let's take a look at how many mauls there are. My point exactly. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that can't be a reason to hate DotA, unless of course you hate and refuse to play every other map that has stolen in the same manner. And to respond to your last sentence, I don't see how the players are entitled to be stupid when your claims are against the game makers.

    Oh and by the way, no one on the site wins points for agreeing with everyone else.
     
  12. Teh_Ephy

    Teh_Ephy

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    i know EXACTLY what you mean... moved to denver from winnipeg in october of 2001... but what does that have to do with DotA?