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Hive Cup 2020: Melee Mapping Contest #6 - Poll

Discussion in 'Poll Depository' started by Mythic, Sep 14, 2020.

?

Choose the best entries!

Poll closed Oct 11, 2020.
  1. Advancing Glaciers

    6.3%
  2. A Land Divided

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Chernobyl Remains

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Frostfire Ridge

    18.8%
  5. Gatekeepers

    12.5%
  6. Last Snow

    31.3%
  7. Lost Wasteland

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Marienburg

    25.0%
  9. Mountain Valley

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Nightstream

    12.5%
  11. Ponds

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. Shallow Grave

    37.5%
  13. Shattered Exile

    25.0%
  14. Talonrift Coast

    18.8%
  15. Tortoise Haven

    37.5%
  16. Twelve Temples

    6.3%
  17. Upstream

    18.8%
  18. Waste Factory

    6.3%
  19. Zul'Alor

    50.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. INSEKT

    INSEKT

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    @WolfFarkas
    OK, OK, but that was not exactly my point. I mean, some people try to mimic schemes and solutions from actual ladder maps, but in meantime they are forgetting to add something unique from themselves. As a result we got many generic maps, which are very similar to the ones, that are already in use. There can be different tileset, swapped few neutral buildings with each other etc., but overall playthrough is the same.
    Yea, this can be a good thema for discussion, maybe switch with it to discord ;)
     
  2. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    1- sorry, english is not my main language, so I tend to miss the point.

    2- I only wish I am not "someone trying to mimic schemes and solutions", I screw a lot in the past with bad neutral positions, bad creeps, totally broken creeping routes. and I really put my soul/best knoledge in my entry this time (but still my quality tends to be average), I dont dare to play with fountains, shipyards, cliff, because I feel, is very easy to screw and have the map broken. (mostly because I have the tendency to screw things in maps).

    I like hive-discussions, also this topic is nice to fill this last days, a thread with no post ends being a bit boring.

    3-an user said, "this game is being played since 2003, dont expect to change how the game is played." I mean how many 1v1 safe recipes are out there, I dont think they are illimited, maybe 20 recipes? (probably there will be a day that no more new recipes can be done)
    I remember when I played booty bay sometimes, booty bay is a big NO. playable recipes are very narrow.

    many things cant be done in 1v1: https://www.reddit.com/r/WC3/comments/hzdoxm/hi_guys_this_is_my_new_2_player_map_it_is_very/

    my point is, is imposible to please everybody. In the same way you and maybe Zuch want to see more new unique maps, others just wants safe balanced play like SC2 comunity. as you pointed.
     
  3. Deserted

    Deserted

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    Well, most of those things shouldn't be done, or at least cannot be done at the same time.

    I personaly tend to take my time to create a new map, and sometimes I feel features, I put in one map, should be put into separate maps instead.

    On the other hand, sometimes you got to add something unconventional to fix something unconventional you added before xD

    For example, on Advancing Glaciers unusual Portals are used in ususial manner (1-way) to neglect possible side effects of having isolated areas accessible only by Zeppelin.
    Other example, uncircumstantially from the same map xD, is Runes of Rebirth. At the time of the start of creation of the map, winter merc camps were BIG NO.
    But I gotta provide some way to dispell in the earlygame, since AG is size of EI, and on EI priest are bought frequntly to dispell summons.
    So I've introduced one Forest Troll Priest for each of the players. Yes, it's only one, but it's free.
     
  4. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    @INSEKT we are not the ones who decide whats get played in tournaments its the melee players. So to work the map needs a certain competetive standard. LR has them and NI did some patches to get them. We cant just make a map with 100 ramps, portals or crazy creeps and sell this as creativity. We need to stay in the balance and work on other stuff like Layout and Visuals. but we still need to apply these standards here. Also the reason why maps like AZ or NI are standard is cuz they give u many possibilities. i often hear that in mapping that u wanna give richness BUT, Wc3 atm seen one of the biggest variety in strategy then ever. If u make a map with lets say nothing realy to creep in the early (kinda like tm) u start to force strategies like pala rifle or harras hunts cuz players will fall behind otherwise
     
  5. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    1-I praise those who have guts to use portals, fountains, shipyards. I really praise new stuff like Brigthwater oasis, I just say, I dont have the guts to try atm., because I fear a poor execution from my part.
    those elements should be used with a lot of design, beta test and feedback IMO, to get the desired effect
    the screen meme is lets say some sort of what type of feedback you may receive from the personal taste of certain very strict pro players.

    If a player tells me, dont do that, I will do all my effort to do what he said.
    But for example a map like Brigthwater oasis, has pulled out 2 elements non conventional in ladder, but it takes time to make such map, and get that map acceptance,

    2- thats what I pointed before, either you are genius, or you do it slowly and mindfully,

    3- maybe I had bad luck that to me that ended in me screwing the map even more (by self experience trying to have dual mines balanced in my noob times)

    4- I praise your courage in try that innovation

    5- I also wanted to pull out some gimmics with some runes, but it was a bit disliked, so I didnt. (matter of tastes someone likes runes others dont,I saw BO and RA removed they Runes of the watcher, I wanted to play with those)
     
  6. INSEKT

    INSEKT

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    @SayuriTenshi
    Nahh, there is no need to add imbalanced things into a map to make it more "creative". We can achieve it by creating interesting layout for example. But if we start a new 1v1 melee map by adding at the center Tavern surrounded by four crescend tree spots, and just change things around the map by moving a bit gold mines or neutral buildings here and here, then sorry, but this is nothing "new". This is just a next variation of existing map with some generic changes.

    Look at BO with their neutral buildings variations and second expo closer than natural. Or CH, where you can find gold mine instead of Tavern at the center. This is the only one tournament map, which breaks this golden center Tavern rule, yet it is still very popular and balanced in most of the cases. I have in mind solutions like this when I talk about "creativity & uniqueness".
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  7. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    1-tavern goes in the center because it can be equally access from any part of the map,, mines, expos. 4 creeps spots are needed to make center important to contest and to have early pvp. (in my map an user told me center lacks importance). tree spots are for KOG play

    2- I really like this discussion, srl, so a solution to no copy LR and NI , would be copy BO neutral buildings randomness? (wich I personally dont like, I prefer fixed neutral buildings, I dont want to do something I personally dislike)

    3- very easy to screw the distance, humes may dislike a far expo. you have to be very wise to set the expo distance.

    4-so we should try to copy CH instead?, I tried to design a map with a broken center, didnt work, broken centers are nice to try but hard to master,
    and probably someone (more used to NI, LR , AZ, ST, EI) will point I dont like the broken center.
    an user who did a broken center map with dual tavern, long a go, disliked the map because it was predictive, I dont think copy CH or make a broken center is the solution.

    5- please , seriusly, do a melee tutorial, and tell me how many balanced recipes exist in 1v1 in wc3? how many expos positions can be done?. I dont think there are that many, there may be 1 or 2 more to be discovered but I dont think there are 19 new balanced recipes to be discovered and used.
    I would really like to read and see all your creativity ideas to get inspired.

    also not everybody went to have LR, others just do EI or ST with some changes as you point, is still ST in soul. a variation of ST. I did a ST variation in the 5 melee contest, I wasnt in the mood to do another ST variation. lets say the ST maps didnt got good score in the 5 melee contest (bad execution from my part). EI can play with 1 shop, ST dont, ST needs 2 shops now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  8. INSEKT

    INSEKT

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    @WolfFarkas
    You ask me if you should copy BO or CH instead of LR or NI, while whole discussion is about not copying schemes at all :p No, man, it is nice if you at least try to find new solutions. You do not have to break center tavern rule, or use randomized neutral buildings. Someone tried it before and it worked. You may have totally different idea, like crazy use of boats (different than intended), and maybe you will suscess same as these guys, who knows?

    Look what @Deserted pointed out there. His Forest Troll Priest solution may not work at all, but I like the idea and it is well appreciated that he is trying. We can have 10 ideas, and even if only one works, while 9 of them are bad, it was still worht in my opinion :)
     
  9. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    I suggest u guy play more then u see stuff that wont work (map has to have a expo somewhat close) or it ends like SV or AI hum and nelf need them. And stuff that can work if done well @Deserted his creep was cool but has high balance proplems cuz hum can creep it before the enemy is there and the reward overall is to big. Other stuff like 2 taverns, gates, or other cool layouts can work with care
     
  10. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    I was trying new stuff, during this contest I wasnt mapping a single map, I was mapping 4, the other 3 options have at least 1 gamekiller problem


    first idea: aborted due to many problems regarding size and expo positions
    Savage Coast
    second idea: walking distances were gamekillers.
    upload_2020-10-8_11-50-48.png

    third idea: my current entry
    fourth idea: broken center dual tavern, like 4 things I really dislike. also there was no time to finish this in time
    upload_2020-10-8_11-48-16.png

    if I dont post "creative stuff" as an entry is because there is something I dislike in the map I did, and I know others will dislike too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  11. Deserted

    Deserted

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    Such things are clearly harder to balance, cause some races can benefit from that, others can't.
    Consider Hu vs NiE match, Hu is rewarded twice as NiE for the same actions.

    Runes of Rebirth given to small creeps empower "One Burrow/Ziggurat/Moonwell into Tech" strategies, but at AG those camps are located at the edges of the map, so bonus creeps are hard to use for harass.
    Let's compare that creep camp with NI one:
    1) Both give level 2
    2) Both drop level 3 consumable
    3) Both are can be crept before the enemy is here
    4) Mine is stronger, so you have to either summon the second WE, or massivly use dispell by newly acquired Troll Priest.
    5) Mine is farther away from other juicy camps and takes more time on it's own.

    So, basically you get a half-dry Troll Priest for being placed in a pretty awkward position on the map.
    Even if that's a balance problem, I wouldn't classify it as "high".
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  12. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    it was in a 2v2 map, the idea was each team had a dual mine to share. never would do that in 1v1

    I see, creeps can be tricky.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  13. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    @Deserted yeh it works on norhtern but this item is normaly placed on higher lvl like 15-17. but again if we compere it to yours it also give tome+2 and a free priest wich is 195g. and 10 wood
    this is extremly massive vs orc and would be an absolute instand ban in orc vs hum. we see hums pulling merc on lr to get shadowpriest there and orc needed to start anti scout it or they had a very rough time. also it doent rly take longer then on norhtern
    the camp is a must do and if u cant u are in a disadvantage
    Also u overestimate the spot very much, its damn ez to do with 5-6 miltia no dispel needed and not neccecery a 2nd waterelement. only 2 guys do dmg.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  14. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    hey can I ask the iron out, of mmm, when the Hive cup starts? I heard middle october 15? I am correct? or is late october like 25?
     
  15. Nightmare2077

    Nightmare2077

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    Hi there!!
    We're now settling on dates. I'm in contact with remodemo of B2W to select the best ones.
    For now, it looks like the main event will take place on the weekend around 31 October. The qualifiers will be hosted during the preceding ~12 days, so maybe the first one will take place on OCT-16th, or later.

    Stay tuned for official announcements :)
     
  16. Nightmare2077

    Nightmare2077

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    Hi guys,
    I apologise for a delay in results announcements. Neytpoh is our "culprit", but he's on the job now.
    Here's a screen from discord
    [​IMG]


    We'll schedule the events and release relevant details once the map selection is finilised.

    For now I can say that there will be 5 qualifiers (each centered on one of the top-5 maps), and the total prizepool will be 750EUR.
    I hope you'll all tune in for the main event despite Halloween:ogre_hurrhurr: (should that date be confirmed)

    Thank you all for patience, peace!!:cute:
     
  17. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    no problem for the delay, and no need to apologice IMO,
    ,a cheer comment from my part to Neytpoh, have a pro-player like him as judge is very greatfull, all of us the mappers will agree in that.


    I mean as mapper I want to read judges reviews, to improve the quality of my map, or to improve as mapper, (probably many mappers want that, the feedback to improve), but we can wait, we can map other stuff or play other stuff in the free time.
    I was playing warcraft 2 beyond the dark portal, the orcs campaing wich covers the orc Ner zul when he was alive ( and was not the lich king of warcraft 3).
    It was interesting that Nerzul recovered some Medivh text by making a pact with Alterac, and fought against Lordaeron and Stromgarde. Kul Tiras abandoned the Alliance and the war against the orcs since they couldnt keep the sea dominance alone.
    Nerzul was aiming to open many portals, it seems.
    In the mean while new stormwind was starting to re-build.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  18. Mythic

    Mythic

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    Results are up. Thread archived!
     
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