Henpecking and Nitpicking on Gerenal Stat Balance

[Kyuzo_dono]

It's ofc true Vestra that redoing the stats will need an overall balance and re-designing item specs. That all depends on how much value Z sees in this whole argument. But believe me, current buildup on Int characters, is monotonous and unrewarding. And with some real spice and smart and real (no it does not have to be complex) appeal added to it, damn who know, even You might get interested in taking more intellectually-enhanced characters as you favorites

I'd love to be on your playground but here I spec'd 10 wisdom for full FR since many games have lags/delays and there are a lot of people who appear under-gaered at d3/shade and want to come outa the fight like a boss. That put the whole weight on bishop's shoulders and that needs a lot of mana + management.

People run from responsibility. And shops, are pure responsibility. Knowing this game even a little bit, no one has a reason to play shop class (that's why u see so many monks, plus other classes).

Yes their "dps" can be quite good, but I have no idea what your playground's shops have unlaernt to get phase shift, I did it to "curse" so I'm not that dps and it doesn't make any sense that you're trying to say shop's are OP cuz of dps.. most of times they don't have time to dps anyway, that's just a weapon for times of need and I think it's been put there wisely.

If a char whose all abilities are friendly (heal/buff etc) did Not have an equally good dps (or somethings like the amount of heat you get from mobs with shielding the target they're pissed most at (and I even pissed off Lieutenant with this, at close range of course) then you could blame Z for not designing aggro management capabilities for this certain class, and that would have been unacceptable, given the game is all about that same thing.

You still think shop's are OP, I dunno ask Z. Maybe Z is overly Christian, I dunno . But srsly if those two weren't there, at least, many many games would have been impossible, esp farming games where a high lvl shop helps out toddlers with new chars.

A spellcrit stat, might also solve aggro management problems you also agreed exist on Crusaders now due mostly to lack of discouraging shout. A spell haste could be designed into "Crucify" so that saders who sacrifice something for wis/Int can get "faster ticks" on it (much like remedy and dudu's 50% spell haste) so that they can manage aggro better, on a low-tank team. Spellcrit and SCM could help redefine dudu's problems (maybe only I have them, cuz so far out of 3 dudus I played with I'm the only one who unlearnt fire arrow, rather than tactically useful net) with low dps, when taking hp/mp and max intl so u can heal alone sufficiently at d3+shade.

The only things, keeping things in balance for the unrewarding Int stat, are "multiplier" numbers (which are simple numbers designed by Z, player has done nothing to gain that), mana cost and equally-balanced cooldowns on spells. In one word "pre-defined", in anther word, not smart, no effort for the gain... a balanced out system with spellcrit and spell haste depending on their most relevant stat, wis/int, would make the overall vibe of "work for what you want" that currently exists on all chars, cept for int-based ones. The only thing makes a zerker solo-farm ogers with merc that decrease income, from 22-30 is the hope of getting more Str, and or Cons, to have better Arp, dps, and durability (or a sin, to get faster attacks, higher dps on ulti, more CC + evas). That is yet to be felt, at least by me, on a mage/shop.

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

Sry to double post, and also to post untimely, I didnt see the few posts above when I was writing mine. But just wanted to say I'm glad to see the change plans (victory dancing atm ). On a very personal note, I'd still see no point in physical agility governing magical spells, but knowledge, be it raw-type intelligence or experienced-type wisdom, would be the case for me. If spell haste is going to be Agi's 5th perk, I'd prolly sooner drop dead before I play int-class anyway. Don't get me wrong please. These plans are much appreciated and looked forward to by me and many else too I'd wager.

 

[Ihazdialup]

"Thats why you see so many monks" I for one don't get that statement, I RARELY see monks, and the ones that do have alreay done their share of tanking/healing such as vestra, box s0ul... etc plus...if you play on the bot, its not really laggy, unless you have a bad computer or internet, I for one could do FL 100% fine WITH DIALUP Maybe your a bad bishop, or play with bad ones, but swing around to one of our games, we can show you what bishops are capable of... trust me, they are OP, 150-250 dps, while keeping everyone alive, yeah, thats not OP at all.. also, where do you play, if your on bnet, username?

 

[S0ulseeker]

WITH DAILUP

*

I took the liberty of fixing your name no worries I'm here to help.

 

[Gotenks]

And ihaz says all that becouse?????

 

[Vestra]

who the fuck gets plane shift, really.

If your bishops aren't taking agro, why do they even need it.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree Kyuzo, I do respect you as a player and I know you and your group play well, just differently to how I'm used to playing. That and I'm just not really in the mood to banter back and forth about it right now.

After extensive testing on bishops with a variety of people over a long bloody period, I can surely say they are the most durable class in the game, that is with the sheer amount of significant benefit the class gets. Druids used to be insanely unpopular due to how much priority a bishop can take in a run over a shitty druid. Now they're nearly on the same tier but still not quite as good.

My favourite character probably is a bishop, I just zerker because people are too fucking lazy to heal. That, and my terrible internet.

Also faster ticks on crucify would making grouping aoes harder, not easier, one tick is enough to pull agro, having the ticks in quick succession would mean some enemies may potentially slip through, but the demo shout argument is for another version.

All in all I'm fine with what zwieb has mentioned, maybe agil does have a few too many bonuses, maybe int should be encouraged on characters other than casters so spellhaste can go there but if those bonuses do end up on in, we better do a fuckton of 1.1n testing.

I suggest encouraging your group to get used to bishoping though, I personally see it as the most vital class in the game due to, well, it's sheer awesomeness.

 

[Ihazdialup]

Yea the skill suggestions are good, I gues sim just poking at don't base your arguements off of bishops, but rather the equality of the skills, I have a little OCD... just a tiny bit and thanks s0ul for fixing my name. =D

 

[Vestra]

I only ever use the examples people give, so, that doesn't exactly work.

I've used sorcs, i've used necros, i've used bishops

the fuck else do you want, critting druids, a valid full int monk?

fuck

 

[Ihazdialup]

oh, was that towards me, was meant for the guy who originally posted the thread and not you vestra, sorry for the miscommunication

 

[Vestra]

i'll cut you ihaz

 

[kevs926]

i have a 96 sp bishop and i still get more aggro than tanks on some boss fights

questioning the usability of plane shift is just..stupid

you have any idea the exact threat reduced on tanks by DP? threat generated on DP? heals? crippling curse? occasional soul strikes?

3sec of being useless vs being raped by boss, i guess thats a matter of choice for others.

 

[Vestra]

Lol learn to manage your agro. You don't need to know the exact amount to recognise that you're gaining too much agro and you should monitor your output more.

3 seconds of being useless can cost a tank his life.

Planar shifts only real use currently is to remove the bishop dopple, and thats a bug, but as you say it comes down to opinion and if you're willing to throw off cripple, a key elemental in tanking lady, for 3 seconds of un-needed survivability on the most durable class this game offers, that's your choice.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

who the fuck gets plane shift, really.

I took the freedom to buff it for 1.1n, adding a neat invulnerability for the stun duration on top of it. I think it's a nice "get outa jail free card" skill for several purposes now.

All in all I'm fine with what zwieb has mentioned, maybe agil does have a few too many bonuses, maybe int should be encouraged on characters other than casters so spellhaste can go there but if those bonuses do end up on in, we better do a fuckton of 1.1n testing.

Hmm... first of, I decided to put spellhaste to AGI instead of INT, just popping an additional crit damage modifier for spells to INT.

The reason for that is that I don't balance stats for how balanced they look on its own, but how they work together.
I basicly want every class to be interested in two of the three skills.

It wouldn't make sense i.e. for Berserkers to have a value for INT, for example. Because why would they ever need it? You don't need your brain to stick a sharp object into the throat of your enemy...

With the recent addition of spellhaste on AGI, it basicly comes down to this:

Crusaders: STR, AGI, INT (Depending on Celestial Zeal)
Berserkers: STR, AGI (because Berserkers are crit heavy)
Bishop: INT, AGI (faster heals have a strategic impact on play, especially when your gear gets better and you are overhealing a lot due to high SP)
Monk: STR, AGI, INT (actually the class that suffers the most from way to few skillpoints )
Sorcerer: AGI, INT (probably spell haste is not that important for sorcerers, as they have many instant cast skills)
Necromancer: AGI, INT (haste can make the difference here, because most spells have a casting time)
Hunter: STR, AGI (probably the class that needs armor penetration the most)
Druid: AGI, INT (I'd rely on bows with high procc damage so armor penetration is not needed and take the efreet for the extra SP-based damage)
Assassin: STR, AGI (armor penetration is a must, the extra crit damage doesn't hurt either)
Bard: STR, AGI (Even more auto attack time...)

As you can see, putting haste on INT would be counter productive, as then casters would be decouraged to put points into AGI instead of encouraged.


Remember that due to the recent changes to the formulaes for secondary stats, a low amount of skill points in a non-primary stat can make a HUGE difference, especially for classes where the specific base stat is low. Just a few points of AGI on your Necromancer (has a very low AGI base) will easily buff your spellhaste by like 10%, whereas druids (who will get AGI through gear easily) need to put much more points in to get something out of it.

Even the primary stats are more balanced that way. An assassin, for example, has a higher base and per level agility as a monk, despite both being AGI based. Which means that monks will get more secondary stats out of it, which means more evasion and more crit ratio. This allows monks to for example also buff INT for extra spell damage on instant cast proccs. Compared to bishops, however, they won't get as much spellhaste - but that's why the procc is there.
I really wonder why I haven't thought of this right from the start. Suddenly, this change brings out the magic.

But then again, this is the theory. Let's see how it will work out in 1.1n.

 

[Vestra]

I took the freedom to buff it for 1.1n, adding a neat invulnerability for the stun duration on top of it. I think it's a nice "get outa jail free card" skill for several purposes now.


Hmm... first of, I decided to put spellhaste to AGI instead of INT, just popping an additional crit damage modifier for spells to INT.

The reason for that is that I don't balance stats for how balanced they look on its own, but how they work together.
I basicly want every class to be interested in two of the three skills.

It wouldn't make sense i.e. for Berserkers to have a value for INT, for example. Because why would they ever need it? You don't need your brain to stick a sharp object into the throat of your enemy...

With the recent addition of spellhaste on AGI, it basicly comes down to this:

Crusaders: STR, AGI, INT (Depending on Celestial Zeal)
Berserkers: STR, AGI (because Berserkers are crit heavy)
Bishop: INT, AGI (faster heals have a strategic impact on play, especially when your gear gets better and you are overhealing a lot due to high SP)
Monk: STR, AGI, INT (actually the class that suffers the most from way to few skillpoints )
Sorcerer: AGI, INT (probably spell haste is not that important for sorcerers, as they have many instant cast skills)
Necromancer: AGI, INT (haste can make the difference here, because most spells have a casting time)
Hunter: STR, AGI (probably the class that needs armor penetration the most)
Druid: AGI, INT (I'd rely on bows with high procc damage so armor penetration is not needed and take the efreet for the extra SP-based damage)
Assassin: STR, AGI (armor penetration is a must, the extra crit damage doesn't hurt either)
Bard: STR, AGI (Even more auto attack time...)

As you can see, putting haste on INT would be counter productive, as then casters would be decouraged to put points into AGI instead of encouraged.


Remember that due to the recent changes to the formulaes for secondary stats, a low amount of skill points in a non-primary stat can make a HUGE difference, especially for classes where the specific base stat is low. Just a few points of AGI on your Necromancer (has a very low AGI base) will easily buff your spellhaste by like 10%, whereas druids (who will get AGI through gear easily) need to put much more points in to get something out of it.

But then again, this is the theory. Let's see how it will work out in 1.1n.

Well that anti stun buff sounds interesting.

Alright, well, you do need a brain, in order to work out where you'd stick that sharp stick. Warriors don't need to be as mad dumb shit crazy as people want them to be but hey it comes down to what you want out of a soldier and you guys did win world war 2 after all.

JOKING JOKING JOKING

I'm fine with int not being a requirement for zerkers, I get that. There are a lot of bells on agil now, however, it makes agil more viable for monks and druids which is pretty interesting. I'd still like to see some use for int on bards but w.e.

How is 1.1n coming btw, I've seen your little ogre hall and I want me some killin's

 

[Zwiebelchen]

How is 1.1n coming btw, I've seen your little ogre hall and I want me some killin's

Bugfixing and stat rebalancing done so far.

New boss encounter is the next on the list for sure.

 

[Ihazdialup]

Does Lighting charge double damageon crit just flat 200%, or is it double of what your original crit would have been.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Does Lighting charge double damageon crit just flat 200%, or is it double of what your original crit would have been.

Neither. It's +50%, so it adds cumulative to crit damage.

 

[Ihazdialup]

thanks, just wanted to make sure that it wouldn't ever possibly get surpassed by normal crits..

 

[kevs926]

Planar shifts only real use currently is to remove the bishop dopple, and thats a bug, but as you say it comes down to opinion and if you're willing to throw off cripple, a key elemental in tanking lady, for 3 seconds of un-needed survivability on the most durable class this game offers, that's your choice.

wtf?!?!? throw cripple eh? thats like..incredibly bad. how about that symbol of fury, which practically gives less than 5% total dps for agi attackers and only up 75% of the time. Well if you say "control aggro" that means losing dps or heals by a pretty good amount. plane shift removes that "control aggro" part and actually allows you to unleash more of your OP DPS while keeping shields/mends active all the time. If you have a good team you wont need to use Shift, yeah. But sadly, it's not often to have a good team

Neither. It's +50%, so it adds cumulative to crit damage.

hmm, the tooltip should just say +50% Crit damage then

 

[Vestra]

wtf?!?!? throw cripple eh? thats like..incredibly bad. how about that symbol of fury, which practically gives less than 5% total dps for agi attackers and only up 75% of the time. Well if you say "control aggro" that means losing dps or heals by a pretty good amount. plane shift removes that "control aggro" part and actually allows you to unleash more of your OP DPS while keeping shields/mends active all the time. If you have a good team you wont need to use Shift, yeah. But sadly, it's not often to have a good team.

Oh it was the Kyuzo that suggested removing cripple. Yeah fury would be the first choice but with the talent bonus I still see it being more important than shift. As I've said before those 3 seconds are crucial, you can control your agro without going absolutely apeshit, that's what the game is about. You don't lose out on THAT much dps.

Seriously you guys must have god awful teams lined up or something, like, full str mages.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Someone get me some popcorn... this is getting entertaining. It's like east coast vs. west coast ...

 

[kevs926]

3s isnt that crucial, it's just equivalent to 1 soulstrike. ofc you wouldnt use shift when you really have to Heal or when you have BoL on CD or tank's shield is down. Anyway, full str mage or not, it is more on player skill and gears that defines an awful mage. Would prefer a full str mage with d3 gears any day than a level 33 with only pre-d3 gears.

 

[Vestra]

It's also equivalent to a heal. It's downtime you can't afford, especially in certain fights. It's just not a worthwhile skill at all in the current game, maybe later on, maybe once it can dodge lieutenants stun but right now, it's not needed.

What I'm saying is, if you're in a situation where you can planar shift, you clearly don't actually need it for that fight.

Seriously just manage your agro it's really not that fucking hard, how can you complain about a bishops dps then say the exact opposite by claiming you take agro all the time. Move back, mend and shield, lose a bit of agro. It's so easy.

That last bit about the mage is completely irrelevant, if people can't play well, teach them. I take every opportunity I can to teach new players about lady tactics and whatnot. Help those crappy pre d3 mages improve, they have to start somewhere. We all did.

Zwieb idek what those things are. I live in New Zealand, my countries argumentative opinions on regions come down to rugby.

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

Sorry Ves, for such lengthy discussions. It's natural for shops to get aggro due to shielding in dangerous battles, and also bad tanking tactics where Mt goes gets the cage (invul 1 sec) and mobs pass on the aggro to guys behind him (including shop and other poor casters ). And, Ihaz, there are many monk players atm on my Garena list. Also I don't play on Bnet, just garena and I believe now more than before, most of our POV differences come from that. Anyway, long nag already. Nuff said. Let's leave it to Z and you guys for decision making abd beta testing. Thanks very much.

 

[Gotenks]

Someone get me some popcorn... this is getting entertaining. It's like east coast vs. west coast ...

You want a soda as well?

 

[Vestra]

It's not natural Kyuzo it's called bad bishopping.

In those situations you don't NEED planar shift there are countless other options available to the class.

 

[water_Knight]

I don't see why anyone bothers to argue with Vestra we all know he is never wrong ~_~

 

[Vestra]

Or am I always wrong, immensely obnoxious and stubborn?

 

[Ihazdialup]

^that.

 

[Ihazdialup]

But uhhm, yea thats bad bishoping, and/or horrible tank tactics, but plane shift at the moment is god awful, no point, lose out of healing, and of dps.

 

[Vestra]

I'll cut you again ihaz

 

[kevs926]

That last bit about the mage is completely irrelevant, if people can't play well, teach them. I take every opportunity I can to teach new players about lady tactics and whatnot. Help those crappy pre d3 mages improve, they have to start somewhere. We all did.

saying a full str mage is awful is more irrelevant. it is more about gear and knowledge on how to fight boss that makes you less awful. Your idea of 'awful' is probably 'average' on garena. You can teach them tactics, but there is still a high chance of fail in executing it. You thought they understood, but they actually need to experience it first. That is what makes a pre-d3 gear char with 0 d3 experience so crappy.

What I'm saying is, if you're in a situation where you can planar shift, you clearly don't actually need it for that fight.

Seriously just manage your agro it's really not that fucking hard, how can you complain about a bishops dps then say the exact opposite by claiming you take agro all the time. Move back, mend and shield, lose a bit of agro. It's so easy.

I dont need it for the fight? Instead, ill just manage my aggro?yeah i can control aggro it is simple, moving back is unnecessary. i also mentioned already what happens when i control aggro, your brain just kept rejecting it. Also, when did i complain about bishop dps? I actually said it is OP.

With that said, it really comes down to A vs B (dmg from Symbol of Fury vs dmg from not controlling aggro). Sure, A>B when you have a good team or when fighting andy and lady. B>A, with a bad team and fighting shade/FL. You know what, it is actually on a hard fight that it really matters to make things easier. So yeah Plane Shift > Symbol of Fury

 

[Vestra]

goddamnit

can I be bothered

Alright that one garena comment is lets go right there

MOST
GARENA
PLAYERS
ARE BELOW FUCKING AVERAGE


I'll be honest here, of what I've seen, there are a few that impress me, and a few that are goddamn tediously uneducated in this game.
Their knowledge of heroes can be pretty reasonable, but their skill and tactics are not.

My brain is not rejecting fuck all, truth be told I just immensely disagree with you and have shut down your points constantly, but your hindered english prevents you from understanding what the fuck is going on, so we're both arguing up brick walls (I'm stubborn as fuck).

I'm fairly tired of arguing with you kev, there's no point, you can continue to do whatever the fuck you want on a bishop, I've been barking at fragmented english all day and it's tiresome so just, planar shift away idfc hinder your zerkers dps.

On a hard fight, you cope by being immensely busy, constantly healing or checking on various members. Enjoy the 3 second downtime of letting your team die.

so no, no fucking, plane shift > fury, but whatever, think what you want, play how you want, come 1.1n or 1.2 maybe it will be right but in my eyes, right now, and that of various other players I know, you are wrong.

But on the contrary I know many players who would agree with you, so in the end, we both with.

 

[Gotenks]

ah word "FUCKING" is not censored wooo we can actually say bad words

 

[kevs926]

i love how all of a sudden you complain about my bad english.

Hinder zerker dps? already explained how small Fury dps gives compared to what bishop DPS couldve been.

oh yeah ill tell you what a hard fight is, it is when the battle is so long. Yeah you have to be busy healing when you reach that point of the fight. These non stop heals mends shields will outaggro the tank, unless you never used curse or soulstrike at first. Yes it happens.

"Enjoy the 3 second downtime of letting your team die". Well since your brain is rejecting..i mean, my english is pretty bad, let me repeat: You should not use Shift when you have to Heal or when the tank's shield is down or BoL on CD.

Theres no real point in arguing now because i have already proven you wrong about you claiming Symbol is better. Maybe you have something else to add which makes Fury>Shift.

 

[Ihazdialup]

Well... Vestra's right though, Shield/mend/heal should never outaggro the tank, thats kind of funny tbh, I mean fuck any reasonable dps should do the job, Fury is only better because unless you play with such terrible players bishops shouldn't get aggro, unless your playing on a stupid hacked map where heals produce more idk, What does the tank do, run around the boss till all aggro is lost? Symbol Of Fury isnt just for more dps, put it on the tank, gives him more aggro, making you able to dps even more, while actually still boosting the tanks dps, maybe in the future plane shift will be useful, but not now. Or everyones a fucktard and cant control aggroing by over dpsing, but thats just bad players, glad I only play on bnet.

 

[kevs926]

Yeah it is true, shield mend heal alone would never outaggro tank. but if you include curse, it will be a different story and is what i said. A 100 sp bish could get 50dps from curse alone. Add aggro from that + heals + early soul strikes and you have a tank struggling to get aggro.

 

[Vestra]

Fuck, kevs, you are so unbelieveably stupid

Let's try this one more time since you seem to fucking fail to understand each time I have repeated myself.

IF YOU ARE NOT HEALING, YOU DO NOT NEED SHIFT: In this circumstance I'd imagine your team is smart enough to be able to control agro over a fucking bishop.

IF YOU ARE HEALING, YOU DO NOT NEED SHIFT: Self explanatory you seem to understand this point clever fucking you

The class can cover both grounds, at all times. The downtime of 3 seconds shift gives you is enough to fuck up your team in certain situations, crits, team mistakes, other such errors. In failing these, it's your responsibility to cover ground.

Which you apparently suck ass at doing.

I complain about your english because you keep coming back with the same shit despite how I've covered your points in my posts. You are now talking out of your ass.

Also, 25% attack speed (yes, you should have that talent, it's fucking awesome) is a shitton, 15% can make a significant difference in nearly any dps. Even so, fury, the LEAST IMPORTANT SKILL on the bishop, is still not worth throwing away for planar shift in the CURRENT VERSION OF THE GAME.

If your tank
can fucking
lose agro to curse
you do not curse

holy shit man

you have proven nothing, if you want to continue this unbelievably pointless argument we'll do it via pms because I've butchered enough threads ranting at fucking people who insult me when disagreeing with my opinion. Call me stupid and back it up with NOTHING, I come down on you with fucking fire.


To everyone else, sorry, I seem to get off arguing with immensely stupid people, idk why, it's all the dota. Stupid people makes for stupid arguments where I just can't get my head around the flawed logic that I see.

If you have anything sensible to add kevs, anything, that isn't I KEEP TAKING AGRO BAWWW, then go for it, because I'm standing by my point and I only fairly concede to a solid argument


WHICH YOU CONTINUE, TO FAIL, TO PROVIDE GOOD SIR.


fuck punctuation

 

[texugo1337]

Not sure if they are trolling or they really do care for such stupid topic.

 

[Vestra]

It's more personal as I mentioned I have this massive bent up need inside me to attack stupid people. Love downies though, love 'em.

But people with no excuse to be stupid, being stupid. It hurts.

Stupid, I suppose, is the wrong word, because kevs does put a lot of thought into gaias, so does that doubtful douchebag but the ignorance involved is amazing. People come in after a few months play and think they have all the answers, they don't, we don't. We protect what we know and test, they get their back up, I know because I've been in the same boat and talked up the same obnoxious walls but unlike most 'vets' if you want to call them that I only fight back if prodded.

Calling me stupid was prodding. So, out came the shitwave of, I claim, logic based attacks but they are littered with a shitton of insults I'll be honest I get messy you've been on the end of it yourself texugo.

Whatever, I love this game, I just dislike stubborn, aggressive, obnoxious people. The irony being that, once provoked, I am one myself.

Sort of the only thing to handle it imo.

Oh and I don't troll, I fucking loathe trolls. Trolling is the bitches way in and out of an argument. Unfortunately this opinion makes me a massive target for such dumbfuckery but it is the internet after all and I'm a fucking keyboard berserker.

 

[kevs926]

IF YOU ARE NOT HEALING, YOU DO NOT NEED SHIFT: In this circumstance I'd imagine your team is smart enough to be able to control agro over a fucking bishop.

If i am not healing i am either, casting soul strike or positioning, i need shift to lose aggro. They can be the smartest players, but without gears strong as mine they cannot out aggro a bishop.

The class can cover both grounds, at all times. The downtime of 3 seconds shift gives you is enough to fuck up your team in certain situations, crits, team mistakes, other such errors. In failing these, it's your responsibility to cover ground.

ill tell you. it is very simple. Shield+mend the tank, use shift, Continue healing. if everyone is struggling, dont use it. You can always find the right time. You also have BoL if you really cant time Shift properly. You just fail to understand that.

Also, 25% attack speed (yes, you should have that talent, it's fucking awesome) is a shitton, 15% can make a significant difference in nearly any dps. Even so, fury, the LEAST IMPORTANT SKILL on the bishop, is still not worth throwing away for planar shift in the CURRENT VERSION OF THE GAME.

ive already shown you numbers, do not believe it if you want. if 15% Fury gives about less than 5% increase in dps, 25% Fury would be around 8%. Thats shitton?

If your tank
can fucking
lose agro to curse
you do not curse

Theres also another option: use shift(time it properly as mentioned above) and continue cursing. Way more dps that way.

Understood?

 

[Vestra]

If i am not healing i am either, casting soul strike or positioning, i need shift to lose aggro. They can be the smartest players, but without gears strong as mine they cannot out aggro a bishop.

ill tell you. it is very simple. Shield+mend the tank, use shift, Continue healing. if everyone is struggling, dont use it. You can always find the right time. You also have BoL if you really cant time Shift properly. You just fail to understand that.

ive already shown you numbers, do not believe it if you want. if 15% Fury gives about less than 5% increase in dps, 25% Fury would be around 8%. Thats shitton?

Theres also another option: use shift and continue cursing. Way more dps that way.

Understood?

Alright back for more that, thats fun.

So, stupid points to cover

You are indeed soul striking or positioning, in the time it takes you to do this someone should have taken some form of damage, fucking heal them. Also, if you're gaining agro and how many times have I made this clear reduce your fucking distance and output. Use your fucking mindbreaker, let the tank generate some agro with fury and mend. Your 3 second downtime, for the, the hundreth time, could cost someone their life.

You do no
need
the right time
to shift
in any fight

You don't need that one extra soul strike to kill a shade, or anything for that matter, if you did, you fucking fail as a bishop, as a team. The bosses are easily manageable, EASILY, without that skill.

ALL OF THEM
ALL THE AGRO IS THE TANKS

Are you even aware of what you're saying, the standard output of 5-8% dps over your pulling of agro, which you then cut off for 3 seconds for shift, then resume to cover your ass for what you've fucked up. 8% > the giant fucking mess you've created for absolutely no reason which a mindbreaker could fix for you.

Where are you getting, these shitty dps numbers, you do know most classes dps is less than the pretty figures you're watching, dps your constant output rate via auto attack and constant skill usage. Watch it with a maxed fury next time, on a maxed zerker, in shades fucking face. Watch it help the tank monitor agro on a undergeared zerker. Watch what fury can do for YOU instead of providing me with heavily inaccurate figures, heavily, jesus. You have some shit fucking dps's out their.


Please don't say 'understood' when you're still regurgitating the same shit that results in less dps output. You shift, you lose 3 seconds, the fight could turn in 3 seconds because apparently your fucking playerbase is THAT shit, and you lose, on dps. You get a tick of cripple, congrats.

How are you getting this agro, how are you that stupid that you think spamming until you have agro is the most effective way to take down a boss.

You do not NEED to kill the boss half a second faster than another team, it is not an accomplishment, it puts the team at risk over your own inability to work a bishop at an effective rate without shift.


Why do you keep bringing me this shit kevs, just stop, it's a disagreement, in the end we both have people on our sides but if you continue to run your little uneducated mouth at me I will bite back as I'm tired and you're stupid.

Or something, I'll stop if you stop. I know it's childish, but it's the internet suck it up.

Please manage your fucking agro.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Good thing we have an argument about different playing styles... as if that would be a bad thing...
No really, let's fight diversity, because... well, you know, diversity is ebil!

 

[Vestra]

Yeah idek where this is going anymore, hence the last statement there, as I said, its personal. He can play how he wants thats fine but fuck with me and BLAMO.

So tired. I refuse to acknowledge playing bad as diversity zwieb, I do.

Still, as I said before, the ability to dodge stuns and maybe spells would be pretty nice for the skill so looking forward to testing it in 1.1n.

 

[kevs926]

Here are the things we do not agree on:

1.) "3s of downtime fucks up the team" You say yes, i say no. I already said that i will just replace one soulstrike cast with a plane shift. How does that fuck up a team? "While i was down for 3s someone should have taken damage". Yes that is true, but 500 life shield + mend would have taken care of that. Distancing my self is no solution, it does nothing to aggro. Mind twist aint enough also, you will not get the aggro for a while but it is only temporary. I need both to not get boss aggro

2.) "You get 8% dps increase from 25%Fury". Ideally, 25%Fury gives 25% increase in dps. But that is if all the attacks comes from autoattacks, attacker has 0 agility + no other aspd items and most importantly if symbol doesnt have 60s cooldown. So how did i come up with numbers? well first, take into consideration that it only last 45s and skill itself has 60s cooldown. Effect of skill now dropped to 75%. Now since aspd only affects autoattack, all those dmg skills like revenge, gaping wounds, hateful strike etc are not affected by any aspd increase that character has. Let's say only 2/3 of your dps is from auto attacks. Well thats just a number from my head. Then we include the last factor. Lets use a 32 zerk with 28 agi and -10% aspd weapon. This means that zerk currently has +46% aspd (28x2-10). Since it has already +46%, the extra 25% aspd is not gonna give you full 25% output. Instead you get (146+25)/(146) =1.17, not the expected 1.25. You get another factor 17/25 for dps. Multiply them all and you get 8.5%.

So, what you expect was that 8.5% amounts to? Thats like 5 dps for a 2min battle. 2 extra Soul strikes would beat that easily. Plane shift would allow you to do more than 2 extra soulstrikes + more ticks of curse.

If i dont need those extra soulstrikes i wouldnt also need that 25%Fury to kill the boss

3.) "Constant Cursing and Soulstrikes inbetween would cause bishop to outaggro the tank". I already said that this is a case when you dont have a good team. If you have teammates with gears as good as the bishop, you wont need aggro control.

 

[Vestra]

A shitton can change in 3 seconds. Shittons. You bitch about all this agro transfer, that alone can mess a teams organisation up. 500 life shield/mend handles one person, what the fuck boss are you talking about that targets one person the whole fucking time without any shifting or variation in forms of damage.

2/3s? do you not animation cancel at all. Those are minor nukes, they last half a second, most of your dps in a boss fight for those characters comes down to autoing. That's wc3.

I'm fairly sure their are attack speed breaks in animation, on top of that, you have to account for crits, ARP, other external buffs. You're using the most basic model for that equation and as pretty as your numbers look they're not convincing. Theres also more gear, more heavy bonuses that factor higher or lower dps, more movement in combat. So many more factors that validate and disregard both skills.

5 dps? lol. You're pulling some shitty numbers out now aren't you. Go run with a bunch of fully geared characters. See how that 5 dps turns out.

For anything lower than geared shit, you would be occupied anyway and agro management would be on you.

fury is agro
fury is agro
fury
is
agro

you're just defending your self preservation and that fucking irritating bishop bug.

If you don't have a good team, you will be busy monitoring them I guarantee you that, too busy to spend time gaining agro.

Maybe, just fucking maybe, it's your bad bishoping, that's making the team bad? Have you considered that? Understood?

I suppose you're not up for the whole "AGREE TO DISAGREE ^_^" thing.

Pretty sure zwieb implemented a system that affected distance to agro, zwieb, please correct me if im wrong and it doesn't affect spells ive been too lazy to actually test that.



I still don't understand how you're that thick that you think better runs are ones where you pull agro from the tank and fuck an entire fights system up in favour of how fast you can press 2 keys. Mindbreaker should be enough to manage your initial agro game for an entire shade. Just don't fucking cripple, these are simple, well known bishop commands.

You've played for like 2 weeks where do you get such shitty ideas. If you're willing to favour damage over stability in the game you've already got the wrong idea, like nearly every other garena player. No tanks or fucking bishops on there it's a mess.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

As the discussion seems to not get back to the topic, I'm gonna close this now.