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Feminism

Discussion in 'Medivh's Tower' started by Crazed_seal2, Jan 4, 2015.

  1. Crazed_seal2

    Crazed_seal2

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    Feminism is defined as the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

    In my opinion, this is my view, this definition was true in the past and was true for quite awhile however I think the movement should no longer be necessary in many first world countries which do give women equal rights such as voting.

    The major point of my argument is that Feminism should no longer exist in modern first world countries as:
    • Women have been given equal voting rights.
    • Have equal opportunity in education and employment.
    • Women have been allowed to fight for custody for children during breakups.
    • Achieved the goals it was set out to achieve.
     
  2. Xonok

    Xonok

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    Nowadays the feminist movement in many places has come to be more about women's rights than equality, to say the least. It's a very important difference.
    What I mean is people abusing the name of the movement to further their own goals, not equality.
     
  3. Tank-Commander

    Tank-Commander

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    This has been discussed in quite a few places - seems to be a rather "popular" topic as of late. Generally speaking it's garnered a rather negative reputation due to recent actions and in my personal experience the only people I've found in person who sympathise with it fall within the bounds of 14-22 year old women.

    Personally I'm in agreement with the OP on it not been needed and would take it a bit further on some of the points raised.
    "Have equal opportunity in education and employment." - arguably they have more opportunity with the existence of quotas and affirmative action to further assist them reaching universities despite already being the majority demographic (and has been the case for potentially a decade in the UK if http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-314026/The-university-sex-ratio-table.html was accurate)
    "Women have been allowed to fight for custody for children during breakups" - Indeed and also something they are the majority of winners of (by what appears to be a landslide) A quick google search brings up many, many, many charts and none of them showing men being close to equal in that regard.

    However the key issue Feminism has now is how petty and fear-mongering it has become and how hilariously entitled those in the public eye are, with ideals and behaviours which have been described as oppression olympics and you don't even have to go very far into the area to soon find "tumblrettes" fighting eachother about how special they are and what pronouns to use.

    Eitherway it's no longer a political movement, it's essentially deformed into a social one, specifically a social justice one where it's pretty indistinguishable from people saying they have 5 fictional characters in their head and that you need to respect their "natural multiplicity" or you're oppressing them and rejecting any input from males on the subject because they "can't understand from their priviledged position". Caring much more about equality of outcome than equality of opportunity (e.g. Men occupying most of the CEO positions is sexist, because feminism says so) and attempting to push people toward the ideology all the while, being hypocrits to their own cause. I could go on, but It'd be much more efficient to just give link dumps instead of working it into sentences which sound like a rant.

    Pretty much this is what happens when a movement finishes and then doesn't know what to do with itself, other than it doesn't want to go away: it goes all haywire and becomes rediculous. It's fairly saddening that it's still as popular (in the haywire kind of way not in the more egalitarian kind of way) and that I know a few which certainly fall under that category (I was once called "casually racist, sexist and ableist" for using the phrase "don't go full retard") I'll be happy to see the back of it
     
  4. Linaze

    Linaze

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    Feminism always came off to me as a gargantuan leftist interest group, much the same as the labor movement or LGBT ditto.

    I support the rights of all individuals to live free and find their own happiness in the world without anyone tampering with their life or property. This view on life includes everything any sane feminist would support, so there's no need for me to put myself in that tray.

    The problem however is that a lot of feminists wants to force their definition of equality upon the entirety on society, and is obviously nothing I can support as it directly conflicts my views on individual freedom.
     
  5. Nuclear

    Nuclear

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    I, for one, try to keep telling myself that feminists today want to help all genders and promote equality, but I'm having hard time telling myself that. And that's because of stupid crap like this:

    http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/13/7213819/your-bowling-shirt-is-holding-back-progress
    "#ShirtGate", the stupidest thing to happen in 2014. For the first time in the history of humanity, we landed a probe on a comet. And then mean girls online harassed a scientists for wearing a wrong kind of shirt (made by his female friend) and forced him to make a tearful apology.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php
    http://kotaku.com/we-might-be-witnessing-the-death-of-an-identity-1628203079
    http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/08/the-death-of-the-gamers-and-the-women-who-killed-them/
    "LOL let's just alienate our whole audience... for some reason"

    http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/elevatorgate
    Someone asks you for coffee -> Literally harassment

    Also the "10 hours as a woman in NYC" video, which contained mostly innocent greetings (omg harassment).

    Now those are some of the most memorable incidents over the past few years. I think it really does damage the reputation of modern feminism when internet SJWs keep raising shitstorms over the stupidest things.
     
  6. brad.dude03

    brad.dude03

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    The ignorance in this thread is already blinding.

    Feminism exists to create equality, and if you think we have reached that point in society, you probably also believe racism is over in America because they don't keep black folks as slaves anymore.

    In some parts of the world, women are harassed, beaten, abused, and put to death for asserting themselves. Women still can't drive in Saudi Arabia. Outside of your own narrow corner of the world, think about the plight of women everywhere.

    As for the western/developed world... we have a long way to go. Just because women can vote, does not mean they're evil. How much does voting count in our society? Are you always satisfied with who you vote for? do they represent you adequately?

    Few women can say that, as evidenced by the fact that American politicians (and Canadian, and others) continually try to remove their rights. It's an ongoing struggle for bodily autonomy.

    I'm going to tell you about privilege. As a guy. And a feminist. And not somebody trying to accuse you of anything. Privilege is very real, and here's the easiest way I've ever seen it explained:

    https://vimeo.com/64941331

    If you watch that and think this is an exaggeration, it's not. Privilege is what it is, and many of us have it. As a straight, white male, I'm thankful every day, not apologetic, that I was born into a society that isn't trying to hold me down at every turn. How do I use that privilege? To advocate for those who don't have it.

    So you might try the old 'but why feem,nmsdisms???? why not equalloittyyy???'

    Because, egalitarianism, or any other generic equality movement, doesn't recognize the fact that women face the vast majority of societal problems in relation to gender. Do men have some problems? Yes. Custody battles unfairly favour women (which is sexist, btw, because it relies on the BS assumption that women as mothers are better qualified parents). Male domestic violence is rare, but real. Same with male rape.

    But women? Rape culture. Overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence. The pay gap. The absolute lack of women CEOs and politicians and cultural leaders. The fact that women get shut out of STEM education. Trying to even break into male-dominated fields (newsflash: technology is overwhelmingly male). Reproductive rights.

    There's plenty. I'm a feminist because I acknowledge that as a man, I have it better, plain and simple. If you don't think that's the case for you- it might be because you've never examined your place in society, and how you've been given things that others have to fight for.

    edit: also, anyone who uses the term 'sjw' as a pejorative is hilarious. I'm very interested in social justice. Does that make me an sjw? Am I warrior because I'm interested in furthering civil liberties for all? Enlighten me.
     
  7. Xonok

    Xonok

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    It is indeed, as is any discussion that isn't strictly scientific.

    Nothing against equality. However, social justice movements that focus on one group will inevitably become sources of injustice. It makes people look for problems where they don't exist, creating injustice.

    You assume that everyone who disagrees has a narrow view of the world and/or thinks women should be oppressed.
    In some parts of the world(all), men are harassed and beaten much more than women. When looking at the merit of an idea it is important to weigh other relevant factors and do so neutrally. Feminists as a group have for long been biased towards women(hence, the name) and for this reason tend to be unscientific.

    Disagreeing with you doesn't mean that anyone is evil. We all have a right be disagree and to be wrong.
    The rest of the points in that paragraph apply just as much to men.

    Bodily autonomy? This clause is frequently used to say that women have the right to say what happens to their body and used as justification for abortion. Claiming this is bigotry, because it implies that men have absolutely no rights to their children.(Women are allowed to kill children that they don't want, while men aren't.)

    I am unable to take this video seriously. It's blatant shaming.

    I don't care what you think of the video. It doesn't change my opinion that the video is bullshit and has too little connection to reality to illustrate your point.

    Egalitarianism, because equality is about everyone, while feminism is about women. Equality can not be achieved through putting one group ahead of the others, which feminism is about.

    I disagree with women having most of the problems. Neither does feminism fix the problems that women face, because nowadays it has devolved into a hate movement(assuming it didn't start out as one).
    You, as many feminists, haven't bothered to do your research about the problems that men face and/or have done it much less than about feminism.

    Pay gap is a misrepresentation of statistics and doesn't account for many important variables. It has been debunked over and again.
    Rape culture is a buzzword that has so far not been "proven" by anything other than feminist propaganda.
    Overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence? True. However, men have their own array of problems, such as a much higher rate of work deaths.
    "The absolute lack of women CEOs and politicians? and cultural leaders." There is no law that says women can't be CEOs or politicians.
    "The fact that women get shut out of STEM education. " Proof?
    "Trying to even break into male-dominated fields (newsflash: technology is overwhelmingly male)." - It is hard for men as well to break into technology. The amount of women that actually choose to do so is minuscule and thus, they are a minority in technology by their own choice.
    "Reproductive rights." - Men have more of a problem in this area.

    I too believe that I have more than others, but I do not limit it to any single group of people. I have more because I'm the kind of person that is willing to work hard for things I want. This puts me at an advantage when compared to most people. I don't need to objectify myself to get what I want.

    Social justice warrior is a term that is used for people that misguidedly fight for "social justice", while ignoring hard facts and/or trying to change societal values through regulation. The perfect SJW system of rule is a dictatorship, as it would allow them to force other people to conform to their values.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015
  8. GhostWolf

    GhostWolf

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    As a human, I would expect you to assert all of your claims with actual proof, instead of just reiterating all of the recent internet fads that have been going around.
    But of course, that would make it pretty hard to sway the minds of uneducated people on the internet with lies and misdirection.

    The one I most enjoy is that silly notion of "women in saudi arabia don't have equals rights, therefore we need to remove the rights of men in <some country with equal rights, usually the USA>".
     
  9. Linaze

    Linaze

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    This sounds hilarious, is there a source for this? I could use the laugh.
     
  10. GhostWolf

    GhostWolf

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    I believe it's an argument Neomi Wolf uses, but don't quote me on this.
    Somehow it spread to all of the internet "feminists".
     
  11. Tank-Commander

    Tank-Commander

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    I'm going to make quite a few points in responce though they'll be bold for quotes since the big quoting tags will make the post rather large

    "The ignorance in this thread is already blinding." - Blind Assertion (ironically)
    "Feminism exists to create equality" - I think we can agree yes originally, but in modern times [Citation Needed]
    "and if you think we have reached that point in society, you probably also believe racism is over in America because they don't keep black folks as slaves anymore." - If you think I'm wrong you must be ignorant! also [Citation Needed] Do you want legal equality or social equality? if the answer is both then I'm afraid that it's a bit of a pipe dream, humans aren't equal we can pretty it up and give everybody the same legal rights (ergo, legal equality) but it doesn't change the fact that unless you could turn us into a species entirely made up of clones that we just won't be equal (both physically, mentally or socially) since we are a sexually dimorphic species. with notable differences between us which also yes, has mental implications as well. Note that doesn't make anyone worse or better, but does mean we aren't equal or the same.
    "In some parts of the world, women are harassed, beaten, abused, and put to death for asserting themselves." - The topic is about first world feminism, I've got nothing against individuals going out to introduce universal suffrage to the third world but I would like to see some evidence of the majority of first world feminists helping in the third world if you want to use that as a justification for the existence of it in the first world.
    "As for the western/developed world... we have a long way to go. Just because women can vote, does not mean they're evil. How much does voting count in our society? Are you always satisfied with who you vote for? do they represent you adequately?" - "women can vote does not mean they're evil" doesn't make a huge lot of sense to me, are you asserting that we have something against women as individuals? i.e. claiming we're sexist? in that case [Citation needed] Also considering women are the majority voting demographic I don't think "political parties don't respresent enough people" can be taken as a feminist issue, I Imagine it's more a strictly economics and politics one (depending on the country)
    "Few women can say that, as evidenced by the fact that American politicians (and Canadian, and others) continually try to remove their rights. It's an ongoing struggle for bodily autonomy." - This logic doesn't follow, you're relying on the assertion that all but "a few" women can not be self depricating and doesn't consider that a large amount of women can want more controls on women. Clearly disregarding prominent (or simply well-known) female political members whom are anti-abortion and that pro-life feminism is a thing with both having fairly large followings.
    "I'm going to tell you about privilege." - Please, we'd love to hear the definitive version and not one of the possible hundreds of definitions that have been given out
    "Privilege is very real" - [Citation Needed] also tell that to this guy
    "If you watch that and think this is an exaggeration, it's not." - [Citation Needed], also it was indeed one of the many explanations given which aren't consistent with eachother. The problem being is that "priviledge" is not quantifiable and as such should not in my personal opinion be used as a basis for anything. It also enables sexism/racism/classism/etc. against anybody who is deemed to be "more privelegded" by stating they cannot/do not understand and thus can be excluded from certain things for having traits they had no control over
    "I'm thankful every day, not apologetic, that I was born into a society that isn't trying to hold me down at every turn. How do I use that privilege? To advocate for those who don't have it." - So you're saying society is "out to get" certain demographics of people? I think I'll put that under the category of "fear mongering" given that you haven't provided evidence i.e. [Citation Needed] I'd be impressed if you could prove that "society" has an agenda to hold down certain demographics particularly given that society is simply a collective of individuals and does not have an independant will. Unless you're saying that the majority of people are attempting to do so which would need some damn good evidence and is one hell of an assertion to make.
    "Because, egalitarianism, or any other generic equality movement, doesn't recognize the fact that women face the vast majority of societal problems in relation to gender." - [Citation Needed] and yeah some would argue that women aren't the worst off. In terms of legal rights I've progressively felt that MRAs have had more solid grounds in the legal dept. Feminists tend to ground themselves in "social issues" (cat calling, attire critique, actions when drunk) where the others tend to ground themselves in the legal ones (Circumcision, Divorce law, Female-on-male rape not being legally recognised in the USA) normally if it's a social issue they go to it's the suicide rates. Naturally both sides have more reasonable people and both have crazies but that's what I've generally observed as being their normal battlegrounds
    "Male domestic violence is rare, but real. Same with male rape." - Neither of these things are rare or rather more rare than their female equivelents there's a few stories on it and a couple studies
    "Rape culture." - [Citation Needed] It's not been a proved thing, in fact it's never been proven to be anything more than fear-mongering and pressuring women into feeling unsafe as if we don't think rape is a bad thing and giving credit to things like this and this
    "Overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence." - See above
    "The pay gap." - As stated by others this has been debunked many times, but my favourite article is this one, which states that even though young women out earn young men it's not enough and that the pay gap is at an "all time low"
    "The absolute lack of women CEOs and politicians and cultural leaders" - Equality of outcome has nothing to do with equality of opportunity, you can't use an outcome to call inequality. If you can prove it's not down to lifestyle choices then by all means do so, but I'm sure we both think forcing people into jobs they don't want isn't very just. eitherway until such a time [Citation Needed]
    "The fact that women get shut out of STEM education." - [Citation Needed] if you're referring to this then frankly though, people "shut out" by that shouldn't be in a STEM field because they're clearly not robust enough people to handle it
    "Trying to even break into male-dominated fields (newsflash: technology is overwhelmingly male)." - [Citation Needed] (on it being difficult for women to get in)
    "I'm a feminist because I acknowledge that as a man, I have it better, plain and simple." - That's a pretty rocky justification, I thought it'd be because you thought we should have equality in the world and saw it as the best route to take. Though I disagree on your premise: I do not think that being born male makes you "have it better" and as the saying goes, that which can be asserted without evidence can be disregarded without evidence.
    "If you don't think that's the case for you - it might be because you've never examined your place in society, and how you've been given things that others have to fight for." - Or you've examined it and found the assumption to not hold true, or don't think that because a family has historically worked hard and gotten itself into a favourable position all their children now hold "original sin" for daring to have a hard-working family.
    "also, anyone who uses the term 'sjw' as a pejorative is hilarious. I'm very interested in social justice. Does that make me an sjw? Am I warrior because I'm interested in furthering civil liberties for all? Enlighten me. " - Well it's a pejorative because social justice is inherently injust as by factoring in social, political and various other factors (gender/race/etc.) it is removing the blindness in justice and thus its neutrality (unless you want to argue against that) - while some see that as more just I think it's pretty common to have an aversion to that and thus "SJW" implies an individual who is fighting for injustice (in the eyes of others) while claiming it to be more just

    I may revise this responce if there's any gaping flaws in it (I mostly typed it out as I felt) may also edit it for link dumping of various other things that have been put forward in the name of social justice. If I have any necessary [Citation Neededs] I'll look for the sources again. (and I apologise for the wall of text)
     
  12. Crazed_seal2

    Crazed_seal2

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDj_bN0L8XM
    Here's a video on the pay gap myth.
    Unlike your video brad.dude03 the comments are not disabled (at the moment but i don't they will ever be).
     
  13. brad.dude03

    brad.dude03

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    The wage gap as a physical actual, we pay x this amount and y this amount is, yes, wrong. Nowhere in my initial argument did I assert that was the case. The fact that, on average, wages for women are less than men is STILL a wage gap, however, and you can explain it away all you want, but the fact is that minority women? Black women? Trans women? They, on average, make even less than your average woman, let alone men. This is a societal problem that needs to be addressed, period.

    As for the rest- I'm truly not interested in getting into a drawn out debate. At all. That was my mistake for wandering back into this forum in the first place. I don't have the time or the desire. So I'll just say this:

    Our society, western society included, dehumanizes minorities. Whether it's women, LGBTQ folks, religious minorities, or people of other races. It is very advantageous to treat this people as subhuman, because it allows the privileged majority to make more money for our corporate taskmasters. We don't necessarily feel good about it ourselves, in fact, we're mostly blind to it since we're born into this system. But we benefit from it all the same.

    I'm in favour of treating all people like people. Understanding their problems, and the challenges that they face. Even if it involves acknowledging my own privileged position where I don't have to deal with any of that crap. Whether it's not being shamed for my number of sexual partners (hello, rape culture!) or not having to worry about my dealings with police (how's it going, institutional racism), I have it better than a LOT of people out there, and acknowledging that is the first step to helping to make these issues, which are entirely the fault of our society, and not of the individuals being persecuted, a thing of the past.

    Again, don't bother trying to debunk this or analyze it line by line. I won't be reading the responses. I just want to make my position known in a broader manner, and maybe help some of you guys understand why some of the "sjws" of the world react so badly in response to people who dehumanize them and trivialize their problems. Have I seen some truly ridiculous shit on the internet from activists? Yes, but just like every other group- there are good activists and bad activists. Nothing in modern-day Feminism includes stripping men of their rights, or is even aggressive or unwelcoming of men. I've been a feminist for years, run in feminist circles, and participated in activism and discussion with TONS of other feminists, the majority of which are women. I have never, in all my life, ever felt unwelcome or uncomfortable because of my gender. So whatever examples you pull about all feminists wanting to castrate men or whatever other overblown moral panic- chances are its just that.

    You won't change my mind, and I won't change yours, so the best we can hope for is that this dialogue will facilitate some thought outside of our respective echo chambers. The world's changing, guys, and whether you like it or not you'll be dragged kicking and screaming into a progressive future. Sooner or later, the activists will win.
     
  14. GhostWolf

    GhostWolf

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    "I have no real argument or proof of anything, so I'll just tell you how wrong you are and how right I am, and then leave".
     
  15. Dionesiist

    Dionesiist

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    But, alas, not too fast! The nightmare swirls and churns unending!
     
  16. rulerofiron99

    rulerofiron99

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    Dialogue is kinda difficult if you refuse to read the other side's view on the matter.
     
  17. Tank-Commander

    Tank-Commander

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    I'm sorry but I'm going to take a step back from the topic at hand to address one pretty simple thing: If you don't want to debate, what are you doing in the Debate Section? If you can't stand a debate on this existing or feel a compulsion to put your two cents in, at least adhere to the standards expected of people and use sources for your claims - without it your statements hold a grand sum of 0 value.

    Picking apart an argument is rather important when it comes to debate so regardless it will be done even if you aren't the one reading it, so other people can get information if nothing else so here we go again:
    "The fact that, on average, wages for women are less than men is STILL a wage gap, however, and you can explain it away all you want, but the fact is that minority women? Black women? Trans women? They, on average, make even less than your average woman, let alone men. This is a societal problem that needs to be addressed, period." - Lets start by reiterating a point: If you cannot show that the reason this is, is NOT personal choice then you have no case - people who prefer to work in social work aren't going to earn as much as engineers and I do not see anything wrong with that, and pushing people into jobs they are not qualified for or do not want is also wrong. eitherway all your assertions here have [Citation Needed] next to them. Now I'm not going to say that a person born and raised in a slum is very likely to become say a doctor but last time I checked just systems are blind to individual factors, treating all humans equally. Introducing quotas for people and otherwise pushing them up at the expense of others conflicts with this prime directive of justice (see: justice is blind) All that is needed, is that somebody who wants those things CAN achieve them and all the opportunities given to them are the same as that of others - that to me and I imagine most others, is what Justice is.
    "Our society, western society included, dehumanizes minorities." [Citation Needed] I can't really say much on that, since I just don't think you're right and you've not brought anything to the table to discuss about what "counts"
    "it allows the privileged majority to make more money for our corporate taskmasters." - [Citation Needed] by "privileged majority" do you mean the 1% or something? last time I checked in the USA "White and Male" isn't a majority with 49% of the population being male and 75% or so being white - estimating that "white male" makes up about 36-37% of the population leaving 63-64% who aren't part of the "privileged majority" which if you didn't notice is over 3/5 of the population
    "in fact, we're mostly blind to it since we're born into this system." - [Citation Needed] I find it interesting how this started with "in fact" and then had no source or even allude to some data, it's a bit like going "in fact, the more you think you're not a bagel, the more likely that you are but you'll never know" and then you all believe me because I said so and I can't be wrong. putting that phrase at the start of your statement doesn't make it have more weight unless you have some good sources, which you don't so moving right along.
    "But we benefit from it all the same." - [Citation Needed]
    "I'm in favour of treating all people like people." - Great, can we start by removing quotas which unfairly benefit those whom have done nothing to earn it? Can we prioritise getting female-on-male rape legally recognised in all of the western world? oh wait. According to feminists that doesn't even show up on the radar.
    "Whether it's not being shamed for my number of sexual partners (hello, rape culture!)" - Hang on hang on, shaming people for promiscuity is rape culture? so by telling people to sleep with fewer people. . .we are condoning people to rape others? I don't condone shaming people for their sexual behaviours but to call that rape culture is ludicrous oh right I forgot that's one of those things that get changed every two seconds to fit whatever point that is to be made (the above source yes while being wiki includes some pretty interesting phrases) ones that stood out to me:
    "denial of widespread rape" - So by disagreeing with that you're causing it, got it
    "Rape culture is a fluid and always-changing entity that is socially produced and socially legitimated, so throughout time and place it's definitions will change" - So I can use it to bend to whatever I please at any given moment, got it
    "Countries that have been described as having "rape cultures" include Pakistan, India, the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and South Africa." - So the USA, UK, Canada and Australia have a rape problem on par with India, Pakistan and South Africa. Got it.
    If you couldn't tell I'm not very convinced.
    "not having to worry about my dealings with police (how's it going, institutional racism)" - I'm pretty sure anybody who has commited a crime should have to worry about dealings with the police, though obviously you're referring to acts of racism commited by the police forces. Naturally a popular topic though we cannot really discuss it without relevent sources, I'm not about to claim that any individual is infallabe or that people can't be racist or even a large collective cannot be. But the way you've phrased that implies that the collective police force (as a collective) condones racism and even encourages it (without doing anything to combat it), rather than having some racist individuals within it and as such you're going to need some good evidence to back up one hell of an assertion yet again. Though I am aware of the historical problem the police forces have had.
    "I have it better than a LOT of people out there" - Bit of a no brainer, I have it a lot better than all the starving africans but me saying "I'm well fed" isn't going to make food appear on their table. If you mean I have it better than my sister(s) for instance because I'm a male, I'm afraid I cannot agree and by the same token unless you want all families to be equal I do not think women in general are disadvantaged for being female than rather being in a poorer or worse-situation family which is not a gendered issue (i.e. if you think differences in family wealth means sexism/racism/etc. then I'm pretty sure most things count as sexism/racism by that definition)
    "which are entirely the fault of our society" - [Citation Needed] but more importantly that essentially translates to "It's entirely the fault of individuals making individual choices and we should not allow that" given that society is made up of individuals whom dictate laws and rules with percieved benefit of the populace of that society. Of course lets not bother taking into account things like personal preferences or common interests found in either gender or particular demographics leading to a concentration of these demographics being found in certain areas of society that is just not a thing
    "and not of the individuals being persecuted" - [Citation Needed]
    "Again, don't bother trying to debunk this or analyze it line by line." - "Don't do that thing which is productive and benefitial to the debate and inform other people whom may be participating or viewing the thread"
    " I won't be reading the responses." - Duly noted (how sporting of you)
    "I just want to make my position known in a broader manner" - I think you've achieved that goal, not backed up any of it but indeed made your position known
    "maybe help some of you guys understand why some of the "sjws" of the world react so badly in response to people who dehumanize them and trivialize their problems." - I'd be interested if you could define debumanize here since last time I checked we haven't said "SJWs have no positive human qualities" or anything to so much as imply that Indeed I even stated that there are rational/reasonable people on both sides, if you're assuming that is how we think based on our arguments and nothing else then needless to say it's pretty hypocritical of an analysis. I think it's pretty straightforward to understand why anybody would react badly to being dehumanized I do not think we needed the clarification.
    "Nothing in modern-day Feminism includes stripping men of their rights" - And now we know you didn't read anything anybody said on the subject previously on this thread, quite a few examples of stripping of rights have been linked. But some examples such as men-only curfews (linked in previous post), Disallowing of input on certain legal matters to name two oh and claiming you can't be sexist or racist to white men isn't exactly a great message either
    "or is even aggressive or unwelcoming of men." - pretty sure this isn't too welcoming to men as well as this and lets not forget that #killallmen (gendercide jokes are so funny but rape isn't!)
    "I have never, in all my life, ever felt unwelcome or uncomfortable because of my gender." - To use popular rhetoric: just because you do not experience it personally does not mean it does not exist, though you're not considering people who are not feminist being attacked by feminists, I do not think it's just to slander &/or be unfriendly to others for not falling into a particular special interest group.
    "I have never, in all my life, ever felt unwelcome or uncomfortable because of my gender." - And I have, now we've both made equally valid statements in terms of intellectual debate with the same weighting both ways, see how helpful that remark is?
    "So whatever examples you pull about all feminists wanting to castrate men or whatever other overblown moral panic- chances are its just that." - Never made a statement about "all feminists", I've been talking about "some feminists" and the lack of evidence I've located of the rest of the feminists reprimanding or so much as saying "they're bad" without first being prompted about the fact that some feminists are like that and them going on to use a no true scotsman while still not denouncing them - Do you not find that concerning considering the popularity of the sources provided which demonstrate the opinions of some of these feminists?
    "You won't change my mind, and I won't change yours, so the best we can hope for is that this dialogue will facilitate some thought outside of our respective echo chambers." - I was aware of that from the off given that you didn't provide a single source which only demonstrated that you're prepared to believe things without evidence or are so confident in your position that you feel you do not need it. This entire responce is for the benefit of those who are actually interested in rational debate based in reason and logic instead of making blind assertions like they're going out of fashion. Though I will state that I don't appreciate being brought to your level - if you couldn't tell by all the sourcing I don't live in an echochamber and I can actually be convinced by evidence to change my views otherwise I would see no need for it. Though I'm glad you admit that you /are/ in an echochamber and thus have nothing useful to provide to the discussion
    "The world's changing, guys, and whether you like it or not you'll be dragged kicking and screaming into a progressive future." - [Citation needed] but even if so, that doesn't make whatever future a good one or not one that will be reversed at a later date, it's all out a very odd statement
    "the activists will win. " - [Citation Needed] but nothing says "overconfident" or "blind" than declaring victory early, you can't even consider the idea of possibly being wrong

    It's progressively getting more difficult to post sources, purely out of the lack of things to even respond to beyond "[Citation needed]" way too many blind assertions to even begin to have a sense of debate in it, let alone the fact that you address exactly 0 points made by others.

    To those who read this whole post: sorry for the wall of text
    TL;DR: [Citation Needed]
     
  18. APproject

    APproject

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    @brad.dude03

    If you do not wish to give even a slightest effort to evaluate other person's opinion just because it differs from yours, I don't think you can debate at all. The only thing I see from your side is sticking to your "impenetrable" truths with pretty poor arguments to support it (I know, brains never wants to give up its truths that are already here, it is easier to quit smoking sometimes). It especially gets ridiculous when you didn't even read the responses and stated "You won't change my mind". And yeah, debating about feminism with feminists was probably truly precious experience and contributed a lot for expanding your views, most likely that's why you are so seemingly willing to approach to a different opinion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
  19. Makoodzaka

    Makoodzaka

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  20. DESTROYER123

    DESTROYER123

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    Feminism is about supporting the fact that both genders must have the same rights.
    However feminism in most developed countries, is about releasing women completly from e-v-e-r-y damn obligation.
    If you happen to see a feminazi she will tell you that women should do nothing at all because cooking and cleaning is a form of slavery blah, blah, blah.