Easiest help you'll ever give (Anime/AoS fans)

[Subhuman]

I have a vision and that vision is quite frankly the best anime map made in any genre of custom map in wc3 or sc2.

The vision is of a fan driven AoS/Dota style anime map that actually listens to the masses.

I plan on learning from famous AoS maps such as NvB and Dota by improving on their weak areas.

*too many useless items (biggest issue is this, too many items clogs the stores and confuses beginners)
*not enough listening to fans regarding balance issues
*game breaking bugs that aren't resolved for half a dozen versions
*bland, generic AoS gameplay
*totally unfriendly to noobs/beginners
*Characters that don't feel like their manga/anime counterpart


These are specific qualities that I will be avoiding like the pneumonic plague but in order to do that I'm gonna need help.

What I'd like is for you guys to brainstorm ideas, be it quests, stat systems, items or even entire character builds so I can adapt them to fit into this map.

Example: In Bleach and Naruto characters travel at high speeds. How to replicate this effect for specific characters? Zealots have the charge ability

Kakashi's Kamui is a black hole that sucks everything in. Well there's a black hole ability that does exactly what Kamui does on the mother ship (or was on the mother ship). Just modify it to hit ground as well and you have yourself Kakashi's ultimate.

 

[Dr Super Good]

*too many useless items (biggest issue is this, too many items clogs the stores and confuses beginners)

Too bad that is also a large reason why DotA is popular. Also they are not all that usless you might find with them all getting some use.

*not enough listening to fans regarding balance issues

THIS IS A "WEAK AREA"?! Fans know nothing about ballence and usually complain something is rigged/overpowered when they lose to it and usless/underpowered if they lose using it. Yes you can use fans to collect some data but ultimatly ballence changes need to be done in a controled and precise way. The data collected from "pros", people who play your map well and in a dedicated way is infinatly more valuable than some random fan. Imagine if Blizzard listened to fans in SC2, zerg would win all the time and terran would not even have the orbital command anymore and void rays would die to a single hydralisk.

*game breaking bugs that aren't resolved for half a dozen versions

Bugs are hard to solve. If you actually developed software before you would realise this. The fault that causes the bug might be very inherit requiring vast system rewrites to remove. This in turn can lead to other faults and also performance problems (as the work around may be quite complex).

The resolution of bugs ultimatly comes to how critical the bug is (gamebreaking is usually very high) and how often it can occur. If a game breaking bug occurs once in a blue moon then it is pointless diverting resources to it over a minor bug that occurs multiple times a game. Thus some bugs can be classed as low piority and so will require time to fix. Let us not forget that some quick fault fixes might not resolve the bug yet at first they appear to.

*bland, generic AoS gameplay

Your will be different? Yawn.... I doubt that. Especially seeing how every AoS maker promis exactly that I do not see you being any different.

*totally unfriendly to noobs/beginners

This is the problem with games that require experience to play well. It is also partly the reason why the game is so popular as if a chicken could play the game well from the first session then why should humans bother playing it as they would get bored very quickly. Some form of beginner mode might be useful I guess but you would still need to keep the skill in the map to even stand a chance.

*Characters that don't feel like their manga/anime counterpart

Welcome to ballence. If Goku from Dragon Ball Z went some super syan against most anime heroes there would be only 1 logical winner seeing as how his attacks often leave huge big smoldering creaters and he can fly. It might not feel right for Goku to get totally owned by Gruphy from One Piece but it would not be much of a competitive game if that could not happen. You must remember that anime and manga are designed for entertainment and much of the logic behind character moves and power varies on a episode / issue baisis. Translating it into consistent game mechanics is thus impossible without some restrictions and limitations to the capabilities of characters resulting in them not looking anywhere near that of the source they were based on.

These are specific qualities that I will be avoiding like the pneumonic plague but in order to do that I'm gonna need help.

Do so and I gruntee your map will be a total failure... Maps have some of them for a reason. Others are a result of design limitations and practices which work.

I have a vision and that vision is quite frankly the best anime map made in any genre of custom map in wc3 or sc2.
...
Example: In Bleach and Naruto characters travel at high speeds. How to replicate this effect for specific characters? Zealots have the charge ability

Kakashi's Kamui is a black hole that sucks everything in. Well there's a black hole ability that does exactly what Kamui does on the mother ship (or was on the mother ship). Just modify it to hit ground as well and you have yourself Kakashi's ultimate.

You have not even thought the idea through... You can not make such a map in SC2 due to Interlectual Property restrictions. Blizzard does not own the copyright for the anime and manga heroes so they would have take such a map down or risk legal action.

 

[Turminator8]

The Dr. Couldn't have answered any better... this is a sad post imo...

 

[Subhuman]

Too bad that is also a large reason why DotA is popular. Also they are not all that usless you might find with them all getting some use.

Sorry but from what I've heard that's not the case, Dota was popular because it was the first AoS that was balanced and original. There's also a factor of mainstream media in there and how advertising works.

THIS IS A "WEAK AREA"?! Fans know nothing about ballence and usually complain something is rigged/overpowered when they lose to it and usless/underpowered if they lose using it. Yes you can use fans to collect some data but ultimatly ballence changes need to be done in a controled and precise way. The data collected from "pros", people who play your map well and in a dedicated way is infinatly more valuable than some random fan. Imagine if Blizzard listened to fans in SC2, zerg would win all the time and terran would not even have the orbital command anymore and void rays would die to a single hydralisk.

I don't have an issue with balance and Dota. The only hideously unbalanced thing in Dota is the divine reaper just because its a guaranteed game ender for someone.

Bugs are hard to solve. If you actually developed software before you would realise this. The fault that causes the bug might be very inherit requiring vast system rewrites to remove. This in turn can lead to other faults and also performance problems (as the work around may be quite complex).

The resolution of bugs ultimatly comes to how critical the bug is (gamebreaking is usually very high) and how often it can occur. If a game breaking bug occurs once in a blue moon then it is pointless diverting resources to it over a minor bug that occurs multiple times a game. Thus some bugs can be classed as low piority and so will require time to fix. Let us not forget that some quick fault fixes might not resolve the bug yet at first they appear to.

What I propose is simply if there's a bug that crashes the game more than 50% of the time we fix it or remove the problem before we release it. No one wants another NvB Hitsu crash.

Your will be different? Yawn.... I doubt that. Especially seeing how every AoS maker promis exactly that I do not see you being any different.

You don't even know me but thanks for judging me. Wait, aren't you supposed to be a mod?

This is the problem with games that require experience to play well. It is also partly the reason why the game is so popular as if a chicken could play the game well from the first session then why should humans bother playing it as they would get bored very quickly. Some form of beginner mode might be useful I guess but you would still need to keep the skill in the map to even stand a chance.

I have a system I worked out a while ago for wc3. It uses a quest system to teach beginners how to last hit, deny, etc...all the advanced plays that pros use in AoS games.

Welcome to ballence. If Goku from Dragon Ball Z went some super syan against most anime heroes there would be only 1 logical winner seeing as how his attacks often leave huge big smoldering creaters and he can fly. It might not feel right for Goku to get totally owned by Gruphy from One Piece but it would not be much of a competitive game if that could not happen. You must remember that anime and manga are designed for entertainment and much of the logic behind character moves and power varies on a episode / issue baisis. Translating it into consistent game mechanics is thus impossible without some restrictions and limitations to the capabilities of characters resulting in them not looking anywhere near that of the source they were based on.

I'm not a fan boy so I don't do those things and part of that process is called listening to those around you. Why would you throw DBZ into Naruto and Bleach? Even OP, depending on the character is a bit much.

Do so and I gruntee your map will be a total failure... Maps have some of them for a reason. Others are a result of design limitations and practices which work.

Balance is simply a large scale mathematical equation you have to balance by adjusting dozens of factors at once.
Each series has their undoable characters. DBZ is full of them. So I guess thanks for the advice?

You have not even thought the idea through... You can not make such a map in SC2 due to Interlectual Property restrictions. Blizzard does not own the copyright for the anime and manga heroes so they would have take such a map down or risk legal action.

Did that happen to wc3? Nope. Is it happening to animecrazy or okatucenter? nope. Some manga sites have been shut down but all the good ones are still open like mangafox. Hell, if I have to put a disclaimer on the loading screen just like southpark then I will. There's ways around these peripheral situations.


This idea has been on the back burner for 3 years. I was implementing it for wc3 when sc2 news came out so I saved it for a better engine. Now I have a better computer and after christmas free time for the project (before I was in the busy season for work).

Look, thanks for your input but I don't like how condescending you were. That's not becoming of a mod and I don't deserve that kind of treatment.

 

[Vengeancekael]

I don't have an issue with balance and Dota. The only hideously unbalanced thing in Dota is the divine reaper just because its a guaranteed game ender for someone.

So you brought up a whole point about Icefrog (for example) not listening to fans about balance just because of one item?
Also how can an item be that unbalanced, everyone has access to the same items and if your team really sucks, then I'm sorry for you, but the fed enemy team will eventually have enough gold to buy Divine Reaper, which is a well deserved item, it's not something unbalanced.

What I propose is simply if there's a bug that crashes the game more than 50% of the time we fix it or remove the problem before we release it. No one wants another NvB Hitsu crash.

Such critical bugs can occur to show up sometimes, however the people working on a newer version do test it along with a few other people to look for bugs, but it still has to be released to the whole community to finally find a bug.

You don't even know me but thanks for judging me. Wait, aren't you supposed to be a mod?

Well if you look at it "statistically", almost every new AoS has failed to show new signs of improvements towards new, fresh features.
Also how is that something bad, he's just had a lot of experience with other users and has discovered a lot of AoS maps over the years.
Also usually when you're a moderator, you are supposed to judge a user.
And your case is even worse, because you don't have any material whatsoever yet to show us that your AoS may actually have some potential. And there have been a lot of brainstorming threads which had to be archived.

I have a system I worked out a while ago for wc3. It uses a quest system to teach beginners how to last hit, deny, etc...all the advanced plays that pros use in AoS games.

How is that a system? Pretty sure that's called a "tutorial". Also do not expect DotA to be noob-friendly, a tutorial system cannot be implemented into it unless IceFrog makes a separate practice map for it, however there are enough tutorials and videos made by the community to help you. You should rather look at actual MOBA games, independent from Warcraft 3, which allows them to have some sort of Matchmaking system (LoL, HoN, DotA 2), matching noobs with noobs and pros with pros. (most of the time)

Did that happen to wc3? Nope. Is it happening to animecrazy or okatucenter? nope. Some manga sites have been shut down but all the good ones are still open like mangafox. Hell, if I have to put a disclaimer on the loading screen just like southpark then I will. There's ways around these peripheral situations.

That is true, they never bothered checking Warcraft 3 custom maps, except for maybe during the first 2 years after game launch.
But Starcraft 2 does have a very strict moderation system now and even though some anime maps haven't been deleted yet, there still is a chance that they will eventually be banned. And don't forget that there's also a report button and a lot of Blizzard fan boys are on blizzard's site and report such maps.
You really shouldn't take such a big risk to spend so much time on a map knowing that maybe your map may not even get to see the light of day.

 

[CloudWolf]

Tbh, I say go for it! At this early stage, I find it's impossible to see exactly how a project will turn out. Just make a start and keep evolving until you have something thats awesome

My personal suggestion would be to lay down the groundwork and make the core systems before trying to get people to contribute to the project. It's incredibly hard to get people on-board when all you have is text

Awesome idea though! Looking forward to seeing how this turns out

EDIT: Btw, don't worry too much about the negative comments above. Some of THW's members are notorious for scrutinizing projects from the word "go" While perhaps a little abrupt, they're just trying to help in their own way

 

[Dr Super Good]

Did that happen to wc3? Nope. Is it happening to animecrazy or okatucenter? nope. Some manga sites have been shut down but all the good ones are still open like mangafox. Hell, if I have to put a disclaimer on the loading screen just like southpark then I will. There's ways around these peripheral situations.

This idea has been on the back burner for 3 years. I was implementing it for wc3 when sc2 news came out so I saved it for a better engine. Now I have a better computer and after christmas free time for the project (before I was in the busy season for work).

Did you even read the terms of use for SC2? Unlike WC3, Blizzard is forced to take full ownership of any content uploaded to BattleNet 2.0 (as they actively use their servers to distribute the content unlike WC3 where it was all peer to peer distribution). They enforce it such that even saying a curse word, racist word or nationalist word will result in your map not even being unloadable and any attempts to bypass it will result in your maps immediate removal. This includes words used in the WoL campaign I believe.

You might be able to get away with a generic Anime like map where you have a nijutsu worrier from Naruto universe fight against generic worrier from other Anime universe but as soon as you start using names you run into the risk of intellectual property issues.

Am I being mean? Or am I being wise? I cannot tell you how to interpret what I say but I can only hope it has made you at least a little bit wiser about project development and the risks associated with it.

 

[Turminator8]

Did you even read the terms of use for SC2?

Does anyone except you?...

 

[Dr Super Good]

Anyway I advise if you even want to attempt this project at least generating a list of all anime/manga you want to see included in it. Then working which characters you want to see. From there you can work on scaling them so that they are all roughly equal in performance and suitable for a game (so no blowing up whole forests like often seen in Naruto). You then need to go about the creation of a map layout and team settings (5v5? 6v6? 7v7? I have seen maps with 14 slots I think).

Be aware that decisions you make in the design stage can upset fans. A very common one is you not including their favourite character or series so you must be prepared to ultimately make decisions on what content is included and what content is cut. You also must be prepared to handle all associated risks that come with project development such as the map being removed from BattleNet due to intellectual property issues.

 

[Subhuman]

Not sure why my posts were deleted as they were extremely relevant to the thread, weren't rude and were fairly politically correct but okay...

Naruto and Bleach are the starting points. I've come up with some fine lawyer B.S. to get around the intellectual property issues.

Essentially it says Blizzards and its subsidiaries, the map makers, etc are not liable for any loss resulting from such a map (I just read the sc2 manual and copied some key phrases they use to cover their butt) and that any similarities to intellectual property of others is strictly coincidental. I* call it the southpark clause because it's a more detailed, relevant and "lawyered" up version of their disclaimer at the beginning of each episode.

Judging from the lack of responses this might be the wrong site to post this...which kinda makes sense since from what I remember Hive tends to HATE anime maps, well made or otherwise.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Hive tends to HATE anime maps

We just hate badly made maps. Unfortunatly a lot of anime maps form a subset of this group due to the map makers lacking experience. It is completly possible to have an anime map that is good but the developers need a degree of professionalisim when making it. Generally professionals do not want to make anime maps as they have their own unique ideas so this unfortunatly does create a trend.

To start with, draw up a list of animes you want to include. This in itself is a very easilly debatable subject as some fans may be very disappointed if you fail to include their series (such as missing out DBZ from the cast). You then need to select key characters you want to represent from each one to form a cast list. Once you have a basic cast list (aim for atmost 20 heroes initially) you need to consider what each hero should be (what roles he can fufil). There must be a decent ballence between tanks, pushers and assasins. Unfortunatly to do this you might find yourself forced to allocate some characters to a role not entirly represented by their character biography. Then for each character you must find moves that are best suited for their role and are ballenced (no OMG NUKE EVERYTHING ON PLANET like some animes depict).

Ultimatly you will get matchup killings that just make no sense (1 character who in an anime is stupidly powerful being killed by someone who is not much stronger than a normal person) but this is the way of this sort of game. This is how an ace defense atourny (with no super powers at all) can stop Galactus (who eats planets) in MVC. This is how jigglypuff (a poor pokemon) can beat up gannondorf (who is meant to be impervious to all weapons except the Master Sword) in SSB.

 

[Subhuman]

To be honest I don't want to touch anime like DBZ for the reasons you've covered and I'm not really gonna care if people cry over it because it would be impossible to remain faithful while balancing and I don't want to release an unbalanced piece of poo like the ones that wc3 was plagued with.

Dota hero roles work fine and as such there will be bad matchups but that's why it's a team game.

My start is Naruto and Bleach. That gives me ample characters to play with until I've balanced the numbers and roles to what I and whoever else is involved consider near-perfection.

I'm not going to mess up balance like Gothar does and I'm not going to become arrogant like Dreamraider was, both kill maps and do a disservice to the fans of the series I'm covering.