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60,000 passwords have been reset on July 8, 2019. If you cannot login, read this.

Does "random" exist ?

Discussion in 'Medivh's Tower' started by Vladadamm, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. Vladadamm

    Vladadamm

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    The question is simple : does "random" exist ?

    When i'm talking of random, it's some real random, a theoric thing.

    Express your opinion here.

    Here is my opinion about that :

    In the real life as on the computers, the random doesn't exists. I think that in life as on the computers, the "random" things depends of others things.

    For example, if we throw a dice twice, it might give two different numbers cause we won't do two exactly same throws and there won't be the same conditions. But if we do two exactly same throws in the same conditions, i'm pretty sure the two dice will stop on the same number, in the same position, etc...
     
  2. Crazed_seal2

    Crazed_seal2

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    There is no random in this universe. Everything is bound by rules and even when the rules are bent, it still doesn't exist.

    When you throw a dice, it follows a set of conditions (eg. Gravity, Velocity, Angle of which it hits the surface). It seems random yes, but it depends on so many conditions that are hard to name.
     
  3. Jazztastic

    Jazztastic

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    The act of being random is impossible.

    Achieving a perfectly random outcome from a probability is impossible.

    I'd highly suggest reading the book "The Drunkards Walk" if you're interested in random things. It has a focus on probability, and randomness goes with that, and it is a fantastic read.
     
  4. Magtheridon96

    Magtheridon96

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    Yes.

    Quantum Mechanics insists that it's all random at the atomic level.

    Either that, or it just seems random to us.

    edit
    They invented a certain piece of hardware that generates random numbers by measuring waves that result from some Quantum Mechanical phenomena I've never heard of.
    It works and generates random numbers perfectly.

    edit
    Computers nowadays generate random numbers using a Pseudo random number generator.
    At first, you would seed it, then it would begin to generate numbers based on the given seed.
     
  5. Crayons

    Crayons

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    depends on a situation really.

    from what I know, random is contextual.
     
  6. Vladadamm

    Vladadamm

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    Hmm, crayons, could you give some examples ?
     
  7. Nuclear

    Nuclear

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    Yes, in quantum mechanics. You can actually buy a quantum random number generator.
     
  8. Jazztastic

    Jazztastic

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    Do you even read things before you post them?

     
  9. Magtheridon96

    Magtheridon96

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    Still, they are unpredictable.

    The random numbers given by a pseudo random number generator can be predicted.
    If you seed the random number generator with a constant value, you get the same thing for each execution of the application.


    First of all, we need to find a clear definition for "Random".
    I think it's something unpredictable even when all factors of a certain system are known.
     
  10. Nuclear

    Nuclear

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    I don't always, but I'd consider that random enough.
     
  11. Crayons

    Crayons

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    a person may do something "random" to him even though he just did it for the sake of doing something "random".

    that disqualifies it as being something totally random.

    but that depends on the context the viewer makes real.

    thanks to our evolved brains, we are now able to predict more and more things and this will go on and on until our scope of things we can predict is wide enough that nothing can be considered as random to us anymore. = context
     
  12. I3lackDeath

    I3lackDeath

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    "Random" can be defined differently, it's necessary to look at where it's applied to.
    Example: "random encounters" in games such as Final Fantasy. The term "random" suggests that the player can't control their appearance, yet they are bound to happen, specified with variables and such.

    If you apply "randomness" to real life, it's a matter of perspective. My philosophy:
    What happens, happens, no matter the reason. To think about incidents being random is luxury, there are other aspects that are more important, no?
     
  13. Verhalthur

    Verhalthur

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    To say it is a matter of perspective is to consider randomness in terms of opinion.

    There is a concept of true randomness, which is what we are talking about here (I think), which is a number generator where the numbers are entirely impossible to predict.

    We have no such thing yet. However, it is entirely possible that we will discover a quantum process that generates numbers that we cannot predict.
     
  14. I3lackDeath

    I3lackDeath

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    Any system that generates "random numbers" generates them through a specified concept or formula, hence they may appear random, but they truly aren't.

    We might be unable to predict the characters, but the original system sure can and has to.
     
  15. Verhalthur

    Verhalthur

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    Prediction itself requires observation. A system that generates random numbers is incapable of observation and so cannot predict. It can only generate.

    What you just said basically amounts to "a system that generates random numbers can generate the numbers that it generates."
     
  16. Crazed_seal2

    Crazed_seal2

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    No. A random number generator is not random!

    It is generated by a formula.

    Input -> Seed <Either from User or is gotten from an Outside source ie. Current Time>
    Formulas uses Seed to calculate generated number.
    Output -> Generated number.

    SIMPLE!

    If We get a random number generator
    Put the seed 1 in
    Put the bounds of 1 and 10
    It generates 7 for example.

    Close down the program

    Put the seed 1 in
    Put the bounds of 1 and 10 again
    It generates 7 again
     
  17. Verhalthur

    Verhalthur

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    That is how we programmers generate random numbers, but that is reliant on a pretty stable input source: time.

    A hypothetical unstable (possibly some sort of quantum event) input source could very possibly create a number generator that is random enough.

    The point that I'm making is that while random does not exist now, that does not preclude its existence entirely, even in the future.
     
  18. I3lackDeath

    I3lackDeath

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    That's like saying we don't believe god exists until we see evidence.
    There's incredible much left we don't know and never will.

    Also, regarding your earlier post, the only point in time where such a system would truly be random would be at the very beginning, when the first character is chosen. After that, observation makes prediction possible, and not before.
     
  19. Crayons

    Crayons

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    perspective.
     
  20. Verhalthur

    Verhalthur

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    So what you are saying is that if someone begins trying to figure out a pattern in a random generator, it ceases to become random?

    Awhut there? Not quite sure what you meant.