Did Warcraft 3 / DotA cause the downfall of the RTS genre?

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Did Warcraft 3 / DotA cause the downfall of the RTS genre? I'm looking at you, MOBA hype.

 

[hiphop4eva]

Did Warcraft 3 / DotA cause the downfall of the RTS genre?

Wth no. 100% not. Warcraft 3 is a legend in gaming, the game is almost positive in every part. Its rts is awesome, it is the players that wants to play custom games, and I cant blame them. The Editor is the best editor I have ever seen in my life. About dota, probably not. But I hate when people doesnt play anything other than dota.

 

[Shar Dundred]

Did Warcraft 3 / DotA cause the downfall of the RTS genre? I'm looking at you, MOBA hype.

Nope. Also, you can't blame any game, it's the player's fault.

The new gamer generations are (sadly) more interested in shooters or MOBA games etc. due to the fact that the games are played both easier and faster while RTS games usually take more time and are considered being more "boring". And since those games are being improved a lot over the last years, they appear much more interesting to many people. This makes people move away from RTS genre and without customers to buy the games (or actually not enough buying them) the number of companies considering RTS games as profitable decreases dramatically. Simple economics, little to no demand means little to no offer.

I find it unfortunate that good RTS games are dying out these days, but it's not like you could do anything about it.

 

[Ezekiel12]

Warcraft 3 has certainly directly or indirectly risen several gaming genres like all the DotA clones, thousands of tower defense or base defense games and apps (plants vs zombies, clash of clans, etc) and many more.

But I would in no way make it accountable for the downfall of RTS. Stultification of gaming would still exist and would have just gone a bit different way. It's caused by gaming being a big business now unlike in the 90s and everywhere where a lot of people and money are involved things get dumbed down to fit the masses.

Also while RTS might not be in it's prime, it is not dead. The same has been said of adventure games, space sims, nearly every genre but all had their renaissance at some point.

 

[Celaquil]

They are different genres, although MOBA was "born" through Wc3, I still wouldn't hesitate
for a moment to play a decent RTS game. Even if I love Heroes of the Storm.

Anyway, these "genre creators" got it all wrong, it's not "MOBA" it's "AoS."
- I'll never forgive them, whoever they are.

 

[Ezekiel12]

Anyway, these "genre creators" got it all wrong, it's not "MOBA" it's "AoS."
- I'll never forgive them, whoever they are.

Quite everything is better than MOBA, which says nearly nothing about the game.
You have to "thank" the League of Legends guys aka Riot for this, they needed a term for it and it was their marketing.

Oh, that reminds me to work on my hate against Pendragon, who works for Riot. He's my sworn enemy and if I ever meet him I will go as far as angrily shaking a fist at him.

 

[PurgeandFire]

I don't think wc3/DotA was necessarily the cause. It got people to try the game, and I'm pretty sure most people at least played the RTS version before playing the DotA map. Games like LoL/DotA2 are more to blame (even if they sprouted from wc3). The MLG gaming trend nowadays leans towards games with a small moveset (e.g. CS, DotA2, League, Smite). Sc2 is still popular, but RTS games in general have a big knowledge barrier. I can watch a League game and sorta understand what is happening without context, but watching a Sc2 match without context will really get you lost. But there will always be players who appreciate that aspect. I like that Blizzard still has at least one game where the skill cap is very high. And Sc2 is still very popular for tourneys, so Blizzard has definitely had success on that end.

But the question is whether Blizz will keep pushing Sc2 or whether they will continue to expand. The only way for an RTS game to rise up right now is if a big company leads the way. Blizzard was the only company to ever spearhead such a complex game into MLG, so it kinda rests on their shoulders. I wouldn't expect an undertaking like that from Riot or Valve. Sadly, I'm not sure whether Blizzard will do that either considering they've been moving towards simpler games (HotS, Overwatch, Hearthstone). I'm hoping that is just the Activision side of them peeking out. I'm still waiting for the Blizzard we all know and love to make a move. (go go wc4)

Oh, that reminds me to work on my hate against Pendragon, who works for Riot. He's my sworn enemy and if I ever meet him I will go as far as shaking a fist at him.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Hell no. RTS was dead long before DOTA became accessable to the general public via League.

The only question that always bugged me over the last five years was:
DOTA exists for over a decade. Why did it take the big companies so long to see it's enormous potential?

 

[rulerofiron99]

DOTA exists for over a decade. Why did it take the big companies so long to see it's enormous potential?

Decision makers completely disconnected from the reality of their customers. I still can't believe Blizzard didn't capitalize on the Dota boom back in 2006-2007 before LoL and Dota 2. They had full rights to the IP, they would have been able to port it to a standalone game without any of the legal hassles Valve had to deal with.

Most likely they felt World of Warcraft would continue to dominate and Dota would be little more than a mod with <1 million users.

The MLG gaming trend nowadays leans towards games with a small moveset (e.g. CS, DotA2, League, Smite). Sc2 is still popular, but RTS games in general have a big knowledge barrier. I can watch a League game and sorta understand what is happening without context, but watching a Sc2 match without context will really get you lost.

Honestly, Dota is much more complicated than "designed" games like Starcraft. Dota is a massive bag of glitches that have become features, you need to memorise a metric tonne of special interactions. A game like SC2 is much easier to follow from a layman's perspective: there are two colour-coded armies fighting each other, you can more or less guess by the size who is winning. Visually, Dota 2 is a mess, and due to the nature of lategame heroes it really isn't obvious who is winning to someone that hasn't learnt about the items and heroes.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Blizzard never had the IP on DOTA. They have the IP on Warcraft. That's a difference.

They could have made a carbon-copy of it, but they couldn't have called it "DOTA" without Icefrog's consent.

Also, part of the reason why League, Dota 2 and Heroes are so successful is because of modern social media. League wouldn't have been nearly as successful would it have been released back in 2007.

And to be fair, their estimation on World of Warcraft dominating was correct. It's still going strong even after so many expansions. It is still printing a shitload of money; not as much as in the WotLK days, but still enough to be the wet dream of any CEO.

 

[VeljkoM]

How could have Icefrog have any legal rights on map name that used warcraft setting for heroes and background? Blizzard was just slow with their project "Blizzard Dota" (Later "Blizzard All Stars", currently "Heroes of the Storm") and Valve was faster at trademarking the name Dota.

As Rulerofiron99 said Blizzard could have and should have done something before Dota genre games were born. What have they been doing between 2004-2010 besides WoW expansions and at some point Sc2?

 

[Pinzu]

I would say the competitive element and APM requirments of any RTS games, especially in SC2 is what kills it. Most people can only see people do those amazing moves, but they can not ever realistically wish to put in so much time as to master it themselves. This existed in WC3 as well, but not to the same extent and its truly infuriating to try to push your action speed up and for what? To feel stressed out and anxious just to one up another solo player?

DOTA is more relaxing especially if you are too old to argue with the trolls. Another thing is I'm sure everyone no matter the skill level sometimes have that 22-6 Balanar game. When you play DOTA every game has its own atmosphere, where as when you grind Sc2 or Wc3 for that matter you get kind of numb, don't know how to explain it but I have thousands and thousands of games in Wc3 and Sc2 ladder. "GL HF" and in the end "GG". That's that. Go Next.

Besides Wc3 and Sc2 are mostly single player PvP games where as DOTA is a true team game and meant as such and here I think the biggest success lies. Perhaps the next great RTS game will have to be specifically team game centered.

As for your question I can't answer, but many from the RTS communiy did start playing DOTA, where as before you would play strategy games with your friends at LAN parties Dota became the new thing that everyone played.
_______________________

Also I would like to add that if anything RTS was dead or dying long before the rise of DOTA and WoW is the one I accuse of that murder and anyone old enough to rember know this is the truth. All the friends I used to play ladder with stopped playing when WoW was released, and as time went on this got worse and worse. Then they came back many years later to play Dota with me and I'm glad for it, because I never really liked WoW.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

How could have Icefrog have any legal rights on map name that used warcraft setting for heroes and background?

This is not what intellectual property is about. Intellectual property is what it is: it protects your ideas. DOTA was an idea (that didn't spawn from Icefrog but has it's roots in a Starcraft map called "Aeon of Strife" anyway) and this idea, including all of the gameplay design are protected via intellectual property. Nobody has the right to take that away from you; not even Blizzard.
Blizzard has the right to prevent you from publishing it or making money with it as long as you run it on their platform. They can also prevent you from using their models or art assets. However, they have no control over the idea "DOTA".

@Pinzu: Great analysis. Absolutely seconded. I think the reason why SC2 failed so hard is that it is a highly "unsocial" gaming experience. You log in, you play, you log off. You don't communicate, you don't play in a team.

Warcraft III was completely different in that regard. The ladder aspect of WC3 was actually it's weakest appeal. It was custom maps. I don't know why blizzard made the mistake of making it the main focus of the successor.

 

[edo494]

well Icefrog technically doesnt have IP over it either, nether Guinsoo, and if we go to extreme, neither Eul, so you can leave IP out of the play.

And afaik all things you make with the editor belong to blizzard, so they could literally take the map, compile it from Jass into some form of binary(hell, launcher would do, with mpq archive) and call it a game(like WoW) and you probably couldnt say a thing, because they have the rights to the map, not you

 

[VeljkoM]

I was under impression that legal actions needed to gain any form of intellectual property are more complicated and not received automatically.

Besides I asked regarding Dota name not idea. Last time I checked Valve owns the rights to it (of course Dota2 removed every single reference to Warcraft lore) but before Valve, Dota was unclaimed. Blizzard considered it its own IP but because they didn't preform any legal actions (untill it was too late that is) to secure it they failed to use name Dota. Nobody of course owns the rights to the gameplay ideas, I am not convinced you can even secure that legally or else all Dota style games would be in serious trouble.

 

[Pinzu]

Warcraft III was completely different in that regard. The ladder aspect of WC3 was actually it's weakest appeal. It was custom maps. I don't know why blizzard made the mistake of making it the main focus of the successor.

This is the truth, a game can only have so much replay value it's end is a inevitably. But the problem with custom games is that its extremely hard to make a good product.

I wish they'd support simultaneous development like when you are programming and two people are working on the same project but the versions get saved separately and other features for example the ability to test it together without hosting it. (I don't know how it works on Sc2).

 

[Zwiebelchen]

well Icefrog technically doesnt have IP over it either, nether Guinsoo, and if we go to extreme, neither Eul, so you can leave IP out of the play.

Yes they have. If you create something; a story, a character, a piece of music - no matter how small - you automaticly have the IP on that creation and nobody can use it without your agreement.

That's why you are not allowed to just copy and paste or quote text passages from books without referencing the initial author. That's why "google" or "wikipedia" are not considered an acceptable sources, even if you take whatever you referenced directly from wikipedia.

If Icefrog invented new lore to go with DOTA, that lore is protected by IP. If he made custom models or textures, that is protected by IP. The name "Defense of the Ancients" is also protected by IP (not the game mechanics, though), because it qualifies as an artistic creation.


Valve holds the rights to the IP "DOTA" because they bought it from Icefrog. They did not have any rights to use that name before.


But you are correct in one point: Icefrog doesn't own the "map" DOTA. Not in the US, at least. This is because you have to sign an EULA when opening the editor first that all creations are property of Blizzard.
Fun trivia: such an EULA is not legal in many other countries in the world (such as germany or austria), as any licence agreements must be known before purchase in these countries or are automaticly ineffective.