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Content Moderation and it's impact on the creator's ideas.

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by meatfactory, Sep 28, 2018.

?

Do you believe this could be real issue sometimes?

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    43.8%
  2. No

    5 vote(s)
    31.3%
  3. Maybe

    4 vote(s)
    25.0%
  1. IcemanBo

    IcemanBo

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    @deepstrasz has worked on a Tag Description Guide long time ago, and it is important for the Maps Section, and especially for the confusion between melee/altered melee. It would make good sense to start pushing this again.

    Map quality standard alone is most important for the map itself. But an important point is in my opinion when providing content in general on hive, as then there also becomes other things important, like a hive standard. There must be just some minimum of standard, to keep things comfortable for all users -- like having a proper resource name, a proper description, correct tagging, .. and yes Hive also asks you to put down a credists list for used resources. So sure, not really 100% of judging is about map quality alone, but a minimum part will be always reserved for standards, that are not important for the gameplay itself, and only to ensure overall site quality. I personally find this ok, also specified to credits.

    It doesn't really change my thoughts of having a required credit list, but for sure, server side code automatically generating a list could be a cool helper. Ralle probably won't ever find time for this though, as it's not really essential code, as it can be solved by manual tracking, and there are always more important topics waiting in the actions queue.
     
  2. meatfactory

    meatfactory

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    I see this thread got a bit sidetracked. Let me simplify what the idea behind it is - The original idea that the author of a resource intended VS the idea of what the moderators think the resource should be.

    No it was not. The specific example has nothing to do with tagging, rather than the change of the resource. (I like the the model of the cannon tower better than the other ones.)

    So many words for a statement that doesn't even reflect a single thought behind the intent of this thread.
    You misinterpreted what I was trying to convey.
     
  3. tulee

    tulee

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    But it is about melee taging. The melee tag is currently use to define maps that can be played by professional melee players. You were putting a human cannon tower as part of the map, which makes it unacceptable for a professional melee map. That is not to say this argument is fair-- it has been debated before.
    The problem is you do not realize what the point your own thread conveyed.
    You say this is the point of your thread, but you referenced your own map s an example, which does not convey the point you claim you are saying. Please try to understand why your map was set to awaiting update first.
     
  4. SadisticLeprechaun

    SadisticLeprechaun

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    Although kind of new to these forums, I must admit I am hesitant to post any map or merged resource I make because of comments I have read on almost everything I download with very subjective criticism or complaints of ungiven credit. Blows my mind. It's a game, and old as hell for that matter. I am combining heroes from a bunch of maps on the forums here but I doubt I will ever post it because of these reasons, just using it for myself and a friend.
     
  5. meatfactory

    meatfactory

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    The problem with the tagging comes from the opinion of deepstrasz.
    The Blizzard editor recognizes them as valid melee even with the human tower as neutral hostile in it.
    I don't have a problem with the map's tagging. I have a problem with changing something in the map the does not change the gameplay in any way.
    Even more so, I can change the category to Altered Melee if that makes everyone happy.

    Everyone has a point of view. As I mentioned in the thread, this is not some whining about some resource's status or tag.
    You see it your way, I see it mine.


    I did not make the thread only for this map only, but for any other resource which might be subjected to the same circumstances.

    Lets say I make a model and that model looks good, but it has some animation bugs.
    A moderator spots the bug and tells me to fix it - and I fix it.

    Now let's say I make a model that works perfectly fine, but it doesn't fit the expectations of some of the moderators and they force me to change it
    based on who knows what (not official rules) ; they don't like some color or shape from it.

    Do you understand what I am getting at?

    Most of the "give credit comments" are some generic spam to make points on commenting IMO.
     
  6. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

    Map Reviewer

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    OK dude, this is getting personal. I've written in my reviews that you can and should ask another reviewer for a verdict on your map if you're not satisfied. Now, either you really have something to contribute with or just stop wasting our time.
     
  7. meatfactory

    meatfactory

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    No it's not personal and please refrain from writing such stuff as "bullshit" on the rep comments it makes you look very childish.

    Also the poll shows that there is some sort of problem so it's not wasting your time that much.
     
  8. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Thanks for the life lesson dad.
     
  9. meatfactory

    meatfactory

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    No problem son. lol :D
     
  10. Shar Dundred

    Shar Dundred

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    If only I got a dollar for every meatfactory thread that ends like this...
     
  11. EdgeOfChaos

    EdgeOfChaos

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    I have also had an issue with this moderator, and his decision was overturned when I complained about it. If you want to do the same, just use the staff contact forum.

    Even though it was approved, I removed all my maps soon after because I found a better way to distribute maps, so had no more need to put up with this every time I wanted to upload. The map moderation is extremely subjective and random, which makes THW a poor place to spread maps.

    I now distribute through Discord. It's harder to get users to join, but after joining it is much more convenient. The chat environment of Discord also promotes better discussion than a forum. Pretty much all communities have moved to Discord, even the ones that have a forum here, like Gaias.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  12. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Last I remember, Hiveworkshop was a site for good quality maps. If this site does not fulfill your needs, why even be here anymore? Did you try to change anything for the better instead of whining?
     
  13. Shar Dundred

    Shar Dundred

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    @KILLCIDE I suggest closing this thread, I see nothing but whining insisting that it is no whining ...
     
  14. meatfactory

    meatfactory

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    Oh why, let's see some whining ...
     
  15. EdgeOfChaos

    EdgeOfChaos

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    I think you missed the part where your decision got overturned because it was wrong. I voluntarily removed my work. I didn't lose. Good point on why am I even here: I hardly am anymore. I post like once a month. Just check around from time to time and see what's going on, maybe answer a few questions, just saw someone else noticed your poor judgment *shrug*

    Also using reputation to send messages is silly and cowardly. If you want to say something, then say it for everyone to see.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  16. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Different people, different opinions.

    I told you what I had to publicly. What was supposed to be for you, was.

    And another thing ;) there are more reviewers now and they can be asked for a verdict over another if rules aren't broken of course.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  17. Lord_Earthfire

    Lord_Earthfire

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    So, looking over this thread and looking over the map and that you most likely are referring to (And its not the map you linked, since honestly, there is only an issue with the hive needing to sort out its categories, so of course it doesn't get approved for as long as that issue with the categories itself doesn't get sorted out, although in my oppinion it should be set back to pending and not awaiting update).

    If you are not happy with reviews (because some aspects that are marked as-fixed can be intentional, but these can be reasoned upon, which i honestly didn't saw you doing at all, a big mistake on your part), then get other reviewers to judge upon the map. People have different oppinions on mechanics and there are masses of different stances on game design and thus quality markers for maps. So the judging of a person towards quality can be different than what another person thinks.

    For example when two reviewers complain on your map that its slowing down to a boring halt without much variation and engaging (See here: Throne), you can of course agree or disagree with it, but when you disagree, it is rather time to get other reviewers to look upon the map. Thats what the Staff Contact is for. Or PM other reviewers directly.

    But if you see the problem and somewhat agree with the moderators and/or reviewers, keep in mind that you still don't have to follow the suggestions.
    For every design-problem, there are multitudes of solution.​

    Of course the reviewers propose solutions or changes, but these are sometimes not in the intention of the creator. They honestly see problems with the map and want to help. In that case, it is your task as a developer to look at the problem, analyse it, and solve them in a way that resolves the problem while staying true to your own concept.

    So, overall, it is not that the reviewers/mods change the direction of the map, it is more that you, as a creator, don't try to take the underlying problem in the feedback and only see the proposed solutions, which don't give a full picture.
     
  18. meatfactory

    meatfactory

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  19. Lord_Earthfire

    Lord_Earthfire

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    If you really were, in that case the whole thread is simply based on a misunderstanding and honestly somewhat pointless.

    You see, in the hive, there is currebtly a discussion in progress how to differentiate the whole "altered melee" genre. Since what is smached up there are at the one side generic melee with some tweaks (like the map you mentioned), and whole race overwhaul projects. Both differentiate to such a degree that people talk about stuff like "tweaked melee" or others, which i personally would consider a fitting name.
    This is all under this point in the review made:

    Now when you want to make a melee map. Keep in mind, melee maps have *a lot* of unwritten rules in them that the competative playerbase distilled out of the blizzard map pool, simply because wc3 has a highly competative enviroment and thus fragile meta. Most consider the placement of camps, neutral buildings, avaiability of recources and pathways. Honestly deepstratz made a lot of remarls that fit these rules. Most of these guidelines can be seen in tutorials here around the hive. Or just straight up ask one on the melee discord or subreddit. Most importantky are things like only using normal creeps and items (eg. No towers, no resurection runes or gold- or lumber-bundles in a random itempool), because they heavily screw with the meta and thus what melee is about.

    And when you look to make an altered melee, the map simply doesnt feature enough custom content to be considered one. In that case you should go quite litterally nuts with design. Its then litterally a melee map with some meaningless alteration in comoarison to full fleshed out altered melee prohects.

    That is why people are talking about a new category, like "tweaked melee", where your map currently would fit in. But that simply does not exist currebtly.

    So really, when you are refering to the map, its not that the moderator does actively want to chance the course, but simply got problens with the current classification system and whant to help you to fit it into one, because you obviously want to have it approved asap.

    Its just a big case of miscommunication with currebt structural changes.

    So when you don't want to change the map to fit these categories, i would just suggest to leave it on pending until these things have been sorted out and ask for a reeveluation once that is done.
     
  20. meatfactory

    meatfactory

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    If you have read some of the previous comments, you would see that I said I don't mind what category the map is in. That is not the point of the thread. The whole "whining" as described by some is the fact, that even though the world editor/game recognizes the map as melee, the reviewer wants me to alter something that doesn't affect the map's melee status (based on editor/game) and he is referencing some tutorials and not official rules.