Chronicles of the Second War: Tides of Darkness Demo

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¨Since the release of Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos and Frozen Throne - I had a dream to recreate Warcraft II campaigns using the Warcraft III engine capabilities.
I've been creating maps and models, doing long pauses, quitting and remaking stuff for years. When Warcraft III: Reforged was released it inspired me to finish this campaign.
At that time in early 2020 new teammates that were driven by the same inner fire, contributed to the project significantly.


Chronicles of the Second War: Tides of Darkness - is the attempt to reforge the Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness Campaign.

This is very complicated and challenging task because of great discrepancies between WC2 and WC3/WOW lore, different game mechanics (Naval) and big amount of chapters to make.
At the Current moment the maps for Tides of Darkness Orc campaign are almost finished and the polishing, voice acting and bugfixing process is in progress.
Since Custom campaign feature is not available yet, the team decided to release first 4 missions of ACT 1 of Tides of Darkness Orc campaign as demo maps.¨

- Tamplier777



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Gameplay is vastly improved from WC2, now including sidequests, creeps and other mechanics from WC3.
- Warcraft 2 economy (prices and resource gain, no tax rates)
- Naval resource - Oil
- Naval buildings and ships
- Dual tech-trees for buildings (basic and advanced)



Custom Assets and more will feature both WarCraft II aesthetic as well as appearances from World of Warcraft.
- Custom models for most units and buildings
- Snowcaps system for all buildings in winter tileset for deeper immersion
- Dynamic weather and fog
- Bloodsplats during the fights as well as prolonged corpse decay time for more realism
- Voiced over dialogues (some still not final!)



Lore / Story will be heavy drawn from established lore in original games, World of Warcraft, Chronicles and other book series.
While there are some discrepancies when it comes to certain events and characters,
we made sure to deliver a clean, straight and presentable series of events that transpired in the second war.

- In the book Teron'gor was kiled in the assault of Temple of the Dead, and Rakmar Sharpfang survived.
Later Rakmar was sacrificed by Gul'dan in a ritual to create Deathknights.
In the campaign we switched their fates to pop up Teron, since he is more important character for the warcraft 2 plot unfolding.
Rakmar will be shown as deathknight cameo.

- In the official Lore Orgrim personally slayed the warlocks in the temple of the damned and imprisoned Gul'dan.
In the campaign Orgrim was busy with Stormwind siege and ordered Temple of the Damned siege to Blackhand sons that submitted to Orgrim after he killed their father.

- In official lore of the second war the main leader of the missions is Utok Scratcher.
In campaign he will be shown orc semi-hero (i.e. Naisha, Falric..), and in human campaign he will be a hero enemy boss during the siege of Lordaeron.



Characters from the original early games will be featured in our campaign.
- Rend Blackhand (available in demo)
- Maim Blackhand
- Zuljin (available in demo)
- Zuluhed the Whacked
- Cho'gall
- Gul'dan
- Orgrim Doomhammer
- Nekros Skullcrusher




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no u

Q: How do I play this?
A: Download the maps unpack them from each subfolder so you have all missions from 01 to 04 place them in your Warcraft III\Maps\Download folder
Start WC3, Single Player, Custom Game and enjoy from mission 01!
Opening the map in World Editor is disabled, the campaign is Reforged HD settings only.



Q: When will the whole Orcish campaign be released?
A: There is no precise answer for this question. We have all the maps, but still need to record voice acting, fix bugs, polish cinematics, make models for the Dwarven tech-tree.
We also have jobs and families. All we can say - we are trying our best!



Q: Is this a final version? If not, when we got the updates?
A:Hotfixes and simple things can be updated soon. But major requests will be analysed and probably will be included in final release.


Q: Voice Acting, cinematics, spelling errors etc. could be better.
A: Yes, as stated in intro screen voices aren't final. We will work with professionals and passionate fans to deliver the best we can, that applies to cinematics and grammar as well.
If you're interested in Voice Acting and have a good mic setup (pod mic for example), contact ShadiHD on our discord (links below).



Q: Some missions feel a bit slow and could use more action, will you improve them?
A: Yes, we have received a wast amount of feedback, thank you all for it! Mission 01 will be reworked to an extend, making it more enjoyable.
Some other aspects have already been fixed, such as oil resource. We're trying our best to make the game enjoyable!



Q: How is the lore set up, what about this or that retcon in missions?
A:
Mission sequence follows WarCraft II. Novels and WoW lore is used to give more depth to the story. Things like conquest of Khaz Modan will be shown in cutscenes,
same as with some other expanded or not playable lore bits from WarCraft universe.



Q: Do you guys plan to share the custom models?
A: We are, but not all at one time. Some WoW-related models will be available before campaign release.
Part of the models will be released when the Orcish campaign is finished and another part with subsequent campaigns.



Q: Is there a way to support you?
A: If you want to support us financially, you can do so via PayPal (you don't need to register, best solution is to donate with a credit card, and set a note).
Add a note when donating with the nick/name you want us to put in supporters list, or keep it completely anonymous, we'll very thankful regardless!
Under Activision Blizzard's new Policy, we cannot provide any privilege features such as early access or locked content for backers,
so everyone will get the same content at the end, but that's just ok with us!





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You can follow our progress regarding models and other assets here on Hive:
WarCraft: Chronicles of the Second War | HIVE






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Tamplier777 - core plot writing, modelling, animating, triggering, mapping, lore tweaking, project assembling

ShadiHD - team & project management, custom modelling and texturing, voice acting, mapping, lore tweaking, assembling

Moonman - modelling and texturing, icons, presentation & video montage

Bagysta - modelling and texturing (orc characters)

Triceron - custom modelling and texturing (unique units and characters)



Hiveworkshop Credits

Alpha Testers

Supporters



Special thanks for Hiveworkshop members, be it resources or direct support:

- Zenmaster PR management and lore support
- Trolldaeron concept art
- InsaneMonster for his research in lipsinc
- Mr.Goblin for Logo
- Mythic for custom HD ability models
- Retera for his amazing Model Studio
- HerrDave for his help with English grammar and text/dialogues reivew
- terrio for help with triggers
- Vulfar for knowledge sharing in modeling
- Sunchips for animated grass model
- Stanakin for duck model
- antontama (for icons)

Many thanks for those who tested our maps first:

- Nagax
- Kam (aka Arcitct)
- InsaneMonster
- Shar Dundred
- Mythic

Thanks you so much for donating to our project:

- ThralltheOG



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Update 1

Update 2

Update 3

Update 4



+ Utok's ability renamed to Self heal with fixed tooltip
+ Chapters renamed in map info to Chapter 01-04 instead of chapter one for better sorting in maps folder
+ Mission 04 - Added Towers on the shore
+ Mission 01 - If Rend dies, he will be shown in cinematic anyway
+ Mission 01 - second goldmine will be hidden in cliffs until humans arrival
+ Mission 02 - trolls conversations - fixed long pauses between quotes
+ Mission 02 - fixed capital letters in quest requirements
+ Mission 04 - Killing kids is not necessary now but it is possible.

+ Oil negative values fix
+ Oil UI warning added (Insufficient Oil)
+ Chapter 02 path spacing and trees cosmetic fix
+ Chapter 02 Rend hidden when cinematic skipped fix
+ Chapter 03 tent cosmetic fix

Mission01
+ Resources cap decreased to 10 / 15 /20 K for easy / normal / hard
+ Tweaked trigger queueing
+ Added drops of lumber when tents are destroyed
+ Smoothed camera transisions
Mission02
+ Player need to train 10 grunts instead of 5 in order to be more prepared to assault on prison camp
+ Zuljin will be freed when the Tower beside him is destroyed + trigger code refactoring + camera pauses removed
+ Elven Emissary renamed to Milan
+ Disabled creepsleep at night
Mission03
+ Camera timings smoothed in the intro cinematic
Mission04
+ Camera timings smoothed
+ Utok animation bug fixed
+ Meryn will be hidden if he is alive in the beginning of midgame cinematic instead of the end

Mission 03
+ Oil rigs and oil amount quest completion bug fixed (faced by WTii)
+ Peon swap scaling bug fixed
Mission 01
+ Quest message resources completed showed on final cinematic bug fixed

Contents

Chapter 01 (Map)

Chapter 02 (Map)

Chapter 03 (Map)

Chapter 04 (Map)

Reviews
Shar Dundred
I've already had the honor of trying this campaign, so I can safely say without a doubt that I approve it & look forward to seeing its further development! A job well done!

ShadiHD

Hosted Project: W3CSW
Level 14
Joined
Mar 5, 2020
Messages
75
That might be contradictory to the mission. In the cinematic dialogue, an elf said Zul'jin was destined to be sent to Quel'thalas. If the escort arrived, then Rend was too late.





To the developers, the missions don't need to be exactly like WC2 or just like WC3 but with WC2 story. When something is good, it is good. There are a few WC3 missions made by Blizzard that were lackluster. WC2 on the other hand suffers from old technology, so most maps play out the same.


I like the idea of having a Timer for an Elven group coming to get Zul'jin to make the player more nervous to move out to save him
 
Level 12
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
846
I like the idea of having a Timer for an Elven group coming to get Zul'jin to make the player more nervous to move out to save him

If you want to keep it advanced see if u can trigger in an escort that happens too.
Then u can assault the camp early or stretgically intercept a mega escort before it reaches a circle of power.
 
Level 1
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
6
Right now this looks very boring.
Why don't you just use the Warcraft 3 economy?

In my opinion War3 economy is bad and as a RTS game War3 is a at most "ok" game.

Yes, I agree with most players that campaign and story in War3 is great. Even more: it's the best story Blizzard ever created. It's so good that Blizz reused some part of it in SC2, when every race must unite to survive.

But rest of it is just bad designed. Strategy is very poor in War3. Just grab your 10 units, right click on enemies and use active abilities of your heroes. Unfortunately this mod walks the same way for now. Just grab your units, send them to attack and use one-two active abilities.

Even in War2 there were some strategies with Death Knight on Haste and Unholy Armor, with Mages on Invisibility casting Blizzard inside enemy base, with Runes in some narrow passages, with blocking passages with building and destroying them (or forest/rocks) with Sappers/Dwarven Squad.

If you want to achieve really good RTS game take Starcraft 1/2 as an example, not Warcraft 3. In SC units counters each other and micro plays huge part of the game. Multiple heroes and no-skilled units are bad idea just like it was a bad idea in original War3.

Anyway, Warcraft 3 economy would be a bad decision, with additional costs after X used supplies will only slow down this game... just like original War3 :)




you people clearly didn't play original warcraft 2, the game *was* boring, game should not follow the mission designs of the original but improve on it and add new stuff


In 1996 Blizzard just discovered that right mouse button is a fantastic way to move your units. Don't expect from these times that first missions of any RTS game will be interesting and full of action. Players had to learn how to build farms and get oil.

In expansion (Beyond the Dark Portal) there are few difficult missions, but not in Tides of Darkness, sorry.


Any solution for that is... well, not remastering campaigns in 1:1. Maybe re-tell the story, remaster 2/3 of more interesting maps, add more enemy players and more events to play with.





But tides of darkness didnt even have heroes.

In Tides of Darkness there were five heroes. In expansion next ten heroes.


If I would work on project like this I would stay with minimum playable heroes as possible and mix their design between War2 and War3. Let them level up like in War3 and ressurect in altar, let them be just improved normal units with some additional skills, better stats and higher hp regeneration. But don't build your entire gameplay around them just like War3 did, don't give them items, ultimate overpowered skills. More strategy, less role playing.



Additionally I like what I see so far :) I would prefer "more strategy, less role playing" gameplay, but anyway it looks good. Models are great, I like this scalling a lot (finally building are larger than units, looks more seriously than original War3) and I like new dialogues and cinematics. Keep the good work! :)
 
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Level 2
Joined
Mar 9, 2019
Messages
19
Reviewing the update
Chapter 1
Edited to be more succinct

I need to preface, when I'm playing the mission I'm playing as if I never have before, such as scouting.

I played on normal and was not able to complete the mission because there was not enough gold available.

Southern goldmine died before I was able to make 6 pig farms and 1 barracks.
I made a total of 18 peons; 5 for gold, 12 for wood, 1 for building/repair.

I made 6 grunts(8 total).
By this time I contributed 15kwood but 0 gold.
I made 2 additional Great Halls for efficient wood gathering, I was afraid gathering wood would take a long time.

When I made the farms and barracks, the wolf lair and human scouts spawned within 10s of each other.
I was attacked everywhere at once, split my forces and made 2 additional grunts.

I completed all the quests, but between the gold available in the northern mine and the gold I already had would be less than 15k.

Recommendations -
Make the wolf lair spawn based on time played - 8min sounds long enough and the starting units can probably handle the wolves with good micro.
Continue to have the human scouts spawn when the 6 farms and barracks are made.
This would prevent a worst case scenario of being attacked everywhere at once.

By making 18 peons, 6 grunts, 6 pig farms, 1 barracks, and 1 great hall accumulates to 15,700 gold, assuming no repairs are made.
There is 15k gold in each mine, making it impossible to win unless I make 2 less peons and no repairs, which would be a narrow victory.

I recommend having the southern mine have 20k while the northern maintains 15k.

If the southern goldmine is changed and the two quests are spread out from each other then I think the map would be fine on all difficulties.

Unintended consequences

The gathering quest has a negative effect against the player. Say I have 6000 left in the mine and accumulate all of it. 5000 is automatically brought to the stockpile and I am left with 1000. Now my mine is dead and I don't have enough gold to make a Great Hall. I now have to long distance mine to the northern mine, coupled with Heavy Burdens makes it feel unnecessarily long because of a quest mechanic. The strategy becomes never have more than 5k of either resource unless you plan on finishing the quest. I am not sure that is intended, it doesn't feel like it is a positive.

----

Chapter 2

The changes here are exactly what was needed.
Can no longer rush to Zul'jin with Rend, about 2 auto attacks too short to kill the tower using 6 meat and 1 health potion.

The creep camps feel an appropriate size.

Training 10 grunts was the right amount to finish this mission.

The run through the swamp feels more organic as things are in the way and not too hidden. The southern human attack in the swamp is still delayed, and can be completely passed, so I am assuming that is intended.

It would be nice to see some more of the map filled out instead of large chunks of trees, otherwise I would consider the map mostly/completely finished.
 
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Reviewing the update
Chapter 1
Edited to be more succinct

I need to preface, when I'm playing the mission I'm playing as if I never have before, such as scouting.

I played on normal and was not able to complete the mission because there was not enough gold available.

Southern goldmine died before I was able to make 6 pig farms and 1 barracks.
I made a total of 18 peons; 5 for gold, 12 for wood, 1 for building/repair.

I made 6 grunts(8 total).
By this time I contributed 15kwood but 0 gold.
I made 2 additional Great Halls for efficient wood gathering, I was afraid gathering wood would take a long time.

When I made the farms and barracks, the wolf lair and human scouts spawned within 10s of each other.
I was attacked everywhere at once, split my forces and made 2 additional grunts.

I completed all the quests, but between the gold available in the northern mine and the gold I already had would be less than 15k.

Recommendations -
Make the wolf lair spawn based on time played - 8min sounds long enough and the starting units can probably handle the wolves with good micro.
Continue to have the human scouts spawn when the 6 farms and barracks are made.
This would prevent a worst case scenario of being attacked everywhere at once.

By making 18 peons, 6 grunts, 6 pig farms, 1 barracks, and 1 great hall accumulates to 15,700 gold, assuming no repairs are made.
There is 15k gold in each mine, making it impossible to win unless I make 2 less peons and no repairs, which would be a narrow victory.

I recommend having the southern mine have 20k while the northern maintains 15k.

If the southern goldmine is changed and the two quests are spread out from each other then I think the map would be fine on all difficulties.

Unintended consequences

The gathering quest has a negative effect against the player. Say I have 6000 left in the mine and accumulate all of it. 5000 is automatically brought to the stockpile and I am left with 1000. Now my mine is dead and I don't have enough gold to make a Great Hall. I now have to long distance mine to the northern mine, coupled with Heavy Burdens makes it feel unnecessarily long because of a quest mechanic. The strategy becomes never have more than 5k of either resource unless you plan on finishing the quest. I am not sure that is intended, it doesn't feel like it is a positive.

----

Chapter 2

The changes here are exactly what was needed.
Can no longer rush to Zul'jin with Rend, about 2 auto attacks too short to kill the tower using 6 meat and 1 health potion.

The creep camps feel an appropriate size.

Training 10 grunts was the right amount to finish this mission.

The run through the swamp feels more organic as things are in the way and not too hidden. The southern human attack in the swamp is still delayed, and can be completely passed, so I am assuming that is intended.

It would be nice to see some more of the map filled out instead of large chunks of trees, otherwise I would consider the map mostly/completely finished.

Seems like you never be satisfied.) Honestly I am extremely exhausted and tired providing updates to all those complains about "boring" gameplay for all those days. Keep in mind that having 4 campaigns in backlog - we might not have time to fix some nitpickings. And I don't want to remove ability to loose. Players should be able to lose. Anyway TY for such aggressive testing. Maybe we will fix it. Or not. Depending on a amount of time and energy we have.
 
Level 2
Joined
Mar 9, 2019
Messages
19
Seems like you never be satisfied.) Honestly I am extremely exhausted and tired providing updates to all those complains about "boring" gameplay for all those days. Keep in mind that having 4 campaigns in backlog - we might not have time to fix some nitpickings. And I don't want to remove ability to loose. Players should be able to lose. Anyway TY for such aggressive testing. Maybe we will fix it. Or not. Depending on a amount of time and energy we have.

It is not about being satisfied, it is about the map being mathematically unbeatable if the player makes suboptimal yet reasonable decisions.

To be clear, what would fix this is to stagger out the quests and give the southern goldmine 20k instead of 15k, or give the southern goldmine 22-25k and do not stagger the quests.

Here is a list of things I am not saying-
  • The map is boring
  • The map takes too long
  • There is not enough to do
  • This map does not play like wc3
  • The map isn't the same as wc2
  • Reforged sucks
Again, the problem is not that the quest is asking for too many resources. The problem is there is not enough gold, and should not be implied or eluded to anything else. The issue I am addressing is, again, the map being mathematically unbeatable because there is little direction. To fix this, add more gold. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
It is not about being satisfied, it is about the map being mathematically unbeatable if the player makes suboptimal yet reasonable decisions.

To be clear, what would fix this is to stagger out the quests and give the southern goldmine 20k instead of 15k, or give the southern goldmine 22-25k and do not stagger the quests.

Here is a list of things I am not saying-
  • The map is boring
  • The map takes too long
  • There is not enough to do
  • This map does not play like wc3
  • The map isn't the same as wc2
  • Reforged sucks
Again, the problem is not that the quest is asking for too many resources. The problem is there is not enough gold, and should not be implied or eluded to anything else. The issue I am addressing is, again, the map being mathematically unbeatable because there is little direction. To fix this, add more gold. Nothing more, nothing less.

unbeatable for those who hire too many units. Ok I will upload second goldmine +5k in few hours.
 
Level 3
Joined
Feb 23, 2020
Messages
51
It's so good that Blizz reused some part of it in SC2, when every race must unite to survive.
That's why I enjoyed playing StarCraft 2 and I even see that they have added custom campaigns in SC2 and not in Reforged. Wow there is still good people at Blizzard.

But rest of it is just bad designed. Strategy is very poor in War3. Just grab your 10 units, right click on enemies and use active abilities of your heroes.
Totally agreed with you. I played a ton of WC3 back when I was 12 and I have to say that this was the most annoying thing to do in WC3. You don't feel to control an army but just a bunch of soldiers trying to destroy an entire base. That's it.

In my opinion War3 economy is bad
It's the most annoying economy system I have ever seen in a videogame.

Seems like you never be satisfied.) Honestly I am extremely exhausted and tired providing updates to all those complains about "boring" gameplay for all those days.

I have seen you have updated the first chapter and that's a good thing because the only thing it was really long to do was the gathering of the resources. Plus I noticed we can choose the difficulty of the mission. Does this mean every mission we can choose the difficulty?

The map is boring
I don't think the map is boring.

The map takes too long
Because the problem was gathering too many resources. That's why the map was boring.

There is not enough to do
It's the first chapter. What are you expecting to do?

This map does not play like wc3
This is WC2 Remastered/Remake. It's not 100% WC3.

The map isn't the same as wc2
And that's a good thing. They can't simply replicate everything 1:1 because at this point play the original game. They are trying to bring WC2 under another perspective by expanding the story from the game, books etc.

Reforged sucks
Oh wow I didn't know about that... But what has to do REFUNDED with this project? I found this project the true way to make an actual Remastered of a WarCraft game.
 
Level 2
Joined
Mar 9, 2019
Messages
19
Chapter 4

Another great mission.
The beginning creeps were a nice touch of the thing you should be doing because the wand of silence is very helpful to not lose all of your axe throwers to shockwave.

The initial attacks were good as well, they were well spaced but easy to defend. With the fountain of health however I cannot see how this would be possible to lose as long as you micro your soldiers back and forth to be healed. Regardless the attacks felt appropriate.

I was afraid this was going to be another heavy naval mission, surprisingly it wasn't but did have a nice balance of ground and naval.

There are only a few negative criticisms...
I understand the point to the Lorderon camp was to kill them so you are no longer attacked, but what would have been nice to see is a larger naval presence from the Hillsbrad forces. I sent 5 destroyers over and seemingly destroyed all of their naval ships and 2 towers, albeit 5v1 fights. They just didn't feel like a threat, because of that I think I may have been better off leaving Lorderon alone and just concentrating Hillsbrad.

The initial attack on Hillsbrad was amazing. Large open area for my forces to push down then to be choked by 4 towers and a large force only to break them down with a mix of good micro and an overwhelming force. The area was set up in a way that I needed to be a large monster force, really gave The Horde vibes sacking the town.

A bug I found was the small island that eventually spawns a gold mine has a bear on it. If I attack that bear with my destroyers I come to find out that that bear is an amazing swimmer and will swim through the water to attack my boats. I don't think it is intended, but was a little funny to see.

Another spell bug is the Lorderon's hero' slow aura persists during his reincarnation, and about 4s after his death.

In the end I would say this is a very well done map, again the only change I would make is create more naval units for Hillsbrad(light blue). Otherwise I would give this map another A+, well done!
Time on mission was 40m 02s, including cinematics.

Edit: editing reading other people's reactions to this mission.

I had enough oil from just 1 oil patch to make all my necessary destroyers, fully upgraded, plus 2 transports. Additionally blue and light blue own an oil patch, making 4 total oil patches. In short, there is plenty of oil.

Another bug is with transports, but I don't think you should change it. The bug is if you tell a transport ship to unload, it will sometimes go to the land, stop, then say you there is not enough room to unload(when there clearly is). You would then move the transport ship a little bit, then you could unload. The reason you shouldn't change this is because this bug is also in WC2, so you actually get points for accuracy.
 
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It is not about being satisfied, it is about the map being mathematically unbeatable if the player makes suboptimal yet reasonable decisions.

To be clear, what would fix this is to stagger out the quests and give the southern goldmine 20k instead of 15k, or give the southern goldmine 22-25k and do not stagger the quests.

Here is a list of things I am not saying-
  • The map is boring
  • The map takes too long
  • There is not enough to do
  • This map does not play like wc3
  • The map isn't the same as wc2
  • Reforged sucks
Again, the problem is not that the quest is asking for too many resources. The problem is there is not enough gold, and should not be implied or eluded to anything else. The issue I am addressing is, again, the map being mathematically unbeatable because there is little direction. To fix this, add more gold. Nothing more, nothing less.


I must apologise. In my attempts to provide fast fix, I did a mistake and indeed put not enough gold in the mine with triggers. The current build will contain 40k gold in the southern goldmine.
 
Level 8
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
446
I found a bug in chapter 3 where I started getting negative oil. When I tried to build a destroyer, instead of taking 700 oil, it took 1400 and my oil went into -700. Also, I noticed sometimes the mouths of the units during the cinematics didn't move. Sometimes it did, and sometimes it didn't. I hope you're aware of those and have plans to fix them. Also while playing the 4th mission, I was booted to the main screen for no reason. I'm guessing this is a popular reforged bug, but I can't say if it's because of something in the map.

I'm very pleased with this project otherwise.
 
I found a bug in chapter 3 where I started getting negative oil. When I tried to build a destroyer, instead of taking 700 oil, it took 1400 and my oil went into -700. Also, I noticed sometimes the mouths of the units during the cinematics didn't move. Sometimes it did, and sometimes it didn't. I hope you're aware of those and have plans to fix them. Also while playing the 4th mission, I was booted to the main screen for no reason. I'm guessing this is a popular reforged bug, but I can't say if it's because of something in the map.

I'm very pleased with this project otherwise.

please dm how you reproduced negative oil.
lipsinc is a bit buggy, known issue.
 
Level 2
Joined
Mar 9, 2019
Messages
19
The last thing I can talk about is balance and gameplay...
I am not recommending any changes in this posts, just observations and thoughts.

Urtok - self heal is very overtuned. A fight goes like this...
Urtok at 1k hp.
If 500hp>, use self heal, bringing him full.
If he is close to 125 mana and below 500hp, micro him out of the fight until he can cast heal. Otherwise let him die to reincarnate.
When he resses, he has full hp and (i believe) full mana. You then self heal to full when 500hp>.
In short he can go through a a minimum 3000 damage taken through self heal and reincarnate in one fight. Adding the armor bonus from Rend's battle shout can double or tripled his damage absorption. Urtok is a massive tank.

In many cases I could stack a fight with axe throwers for high damage while Urtok did all the damage taking.

This is also unfortunate because of how undertuned chain lightning is.

100 damage vs 500 heal, both cost 125 mana. It is an obvious choice.

From a lore perspective the the elements of Draenor abandoned the Horde, but on Azeroth was a different story. Zuluhed was still able to farsee(an advanced shaman spell) and spoke with the elements on Azeroth(Tides of Darkness, p47, 113). It was that all the shamans either became Warlocks or Necrolytes, either by will or force, so shamanism on Azeroth wasn't a thing during WC1.

Still, Urtok being an apprentice shaman still justify weak spells. I think it should be up to the developers to decide. But right now chain lightning is weak, self heal is strong.

---

Heroes in general.
All heroes abilities, compared to WC3 meta, are very powerful, I would say twice as strong.
For example Rend's Battleshout increases %damage for a good duration, but also increases armor. This taking Devotion Aura plus DotC Roar with increased damage based on rank, holy hell that is strong.

I wanted to only note Rend's abilities, but Zul'jin is the same, just really powerful abilities, plus regeneration makes him a tanking beast.
Not joking, I had Rend, Zul'jin, and 2 axe throwers kill all of the Lorderon base in Chapter 4 in a about 5min.

While it makes me feel powerful, my worry is how this translates when they are at lv10 with twice as strong abilities as a normal meta hero, basically gods who can solo an entire army. This might make making an army moot, much more about protecting the heroes while they nuke everything. If this is intended by the developers, you nailed it.

---

Rend - He plays pretty well, but not what I expected. In WC3 he was a Blademaster. In WoW he has Mortal Strike, a heavy hitting ability that reduces healing, cleave+whirlwind, and Frenzy, increasing his attackspeed for a number of seconds. What we got was a melee support hero(aura, aoe buff, summon), like a heavy hitting bard.

What deviates from this was the Rend ability. If it didn't do a massive amount of single-target damage, a good amount of aoe damage, and stunned the target, all on a low cost and pretty short cd, I would have just maxed out my other abilities and sat Rend in the back.

I also didn't get his ultimate ability. I wasn't mad or upset at all, just confused. If the player knows nothing about Warcraft it works just fine, but knowing Rend I just wondered why wolves, he's a warrior, not a hunter/beastmaster?

Having that said his ultimate is a really good ability. All of the spell in this are well made and can fit well in a normal fight or in the context of the missions.
 
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Hi!
Try to download maps, but archive only 288 MB.
Archive size must be - 785.1 MB.
Something wrong with link or any updates?
 
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Sadly it will not let me open the zipped folder the error i get is The compressed (Zipped) Folder in my downloads folder zip is invalid iv tryed to download it four times on two different computers and i get the same error and i v even noticed the size differnce as someone else pointed o ut the size is 288mb vs 785.1 MB.
 
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Rend - He plays pretty well, but not what I expected. In WC3 he was a Blademaster.

Rend Blackhand was in WC3? He died in second war as far as I remember :peasant-thinking:

By the way, why here he is called Dal'Rend? From where this "Dal" came from?

EDIT: small bug noticed: Dal'Rend mouths are not moving while he is speaking in game. His mouths move in cutscenes, but not in gameplay.
 
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Rend Blackhand was in WC3? He died in second war as far as I remember :peasant-thinking:

By the way, why here he is called Dal'Rend? From where this "Dal" came from?

EDIT: small bug noticed: Dal'Rend mouths are not moving while he is speaking in game. His mouths move in cutscenes, but not in gameplay.

Rend and Maim appear in the WC3 TFT mission Lords of Outland. Rend's real name is Dal'Rend, can only speculate what 'Dal' means.

It was later retconned to that Rend and Maim left to Blackrock Mountain after the defeat at the Dark Portal. He appears in WoW as the leader of the Dark Horde, and is killed in the game.
 
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Rend and Maim appear in the WC3 TFT mission Lords of Outland. Rend's real name is Dal'Rend, can only speculate what 'Dal' means.

It was later retconned to that Rend and Maim left to Blackrock Mountain after the defeat at the Dark Portal. He appears in WoW as the leader of the Dark Horde, and is killed in the game.

Everything you wrote is correct but the problem is Blizzard (specifically the WarCraft devs) changed too many things during the days of WOW. If a character died in WC3 for some strange reason the character is back to life in WOW.

There is a small detail that, I think, it's missing in chapter 1.

When you killed all the scouts it plays a cutscene where a Grunt uses a catapult to destroy the human ships.

My question is. Where the hell the orcs get that catapult?

What I think it needs to be added in chapter 1, specifically in the orc base, is simply a catapult unit that is neutral and invulnerable so it makes "sense" the cutscene of the Grunt destroying the ships.

Rend Blackhand was in WC3? He died in second war as far as I remember :peasant-thinking:

By the way, why here he is called Dal'Rend? From where this "Dal" came from?

EDIT: small bug noticed: Dal'Rend mouths are not moving while he is speaking in game. His mouths move in cutscenes, but not in gameplay.

From Wowpedia it says that Dal'rend Blackhand was alive after the events of the second war but at the same time, if we consider the events of WarCraft Adventures canon, Rend died after the events of Beyond the Dark Portal.

As we already wrote in other posts, the problem of WC is the inconsistency of the events happen during the wars. In one the game the character dies but in future games the character is alive.

Like in Beyond the Dark Portal there is a human chapter where you have to kill Teron Gorefiend to stop a ritual and then in WoW is back again.
Another thing I don't like is how they start to show the character and then this character changes game to game.
For example, Korgath Bladefist became Kargath (Ok they simply changed a letter nothing crazy) but the design has changed too much over the time.
First Ko/argath was this
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/w..._manual.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080923215709
Then he was young
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/w...Kargath.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161221181554
After that became this
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/w...fist_HS.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200418200244
And at the end of the day it's this
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/w...adefist.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200418090610

This confuses me every time I see a character in WarCraft. I start to see the character in the first design and then Blizzard decide to change it anytime.

If we see characters from other video games like Super Mario or Sonic those characters have changed, in terms of design, through time, but they are still recognizable.
 
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When you killed all the scouts it plays a cutscene where a Grunt uses a catapult to destroy the human ships.

My question is. Where the hell the orcs get that catapult?

I believe it's a reference to this cutscene from War2: (at 4:07)


This time, Grunt used catapult to destroy human ship :)

But I agree with you, it would be nice to find this catapult as unit. Maybe playable or neutral and indestructible so player could not destroy it before cutscene happen.

Also human ship should be indestructible, because now it might get damage and run away.


From Wowpedia it says that Dal'rend Blackhand was alive after the events of the second war but at the same time, if we consider the events of WarCraft Adventures canon, Rend died after the events of Beyond the Dark Portal.

I have played Warcraft Adventures and Thrall killed both, Rend and Maim, but guess what... Blizzard changed it :D


As we already wrote in other posts, the problem of WC is the inconsistency of the events happen during the wars. In one the game the character dies but in future games the character is alive.

100% true.

People were upset when Warcraft movie has a different story than official 2016 game lore version. For me it was like "what's the problem? They change it all the time".
For example: Garona Halforcen from War1.
In War1 she was half-orc, half-human. In WoW she was half-orc, half-dranei. In the movie again half-orc, half-human but for some reason fans were angry because "she was not human, but half-dranei". Well... no.
 
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I believe it's a reference to this cutscene from War2: (at 4:07)


This time, Grunt used catapult to destroy human ship :)

But I agree with you, it would be nice to find this catapult as unit. Maybe playable or neutral and indestructible so player could not destroy it before cutscene happen.

Also human ship should be indestructible, because now it might get damage and run away.




I have played Warcraft Adventures and Thrall killed both, Rend and Maim, but guess what... Blizzard changed it :D




100% true.

People were upset when Warcraft movie has a different story than official 2016 game lore version. For me it was like "what's the problem? They change it all the time".
For example: Garona Halforcen from War1.
In War1 she was half-orc, half-human. In WoW she was half-orc, half-dranei. In the movie again half-orc, half-human but for some reason fans were angry because "she was not human, but half-dranei". Well... no.

Regarding Catapult - I'm afraid if I place it in the map - poeple will ask why they can't control it. And yes it's an easter egg)
Regarding ship - how can you attack him without ranged units?
 
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Regarding Catapult - I'm afraid if I place it in the map - poeple will ask why they can't control it. And yes it's an easter egg)
Regarding ship - how can you attack him without ranged units?

If ship is close enough to coast, melee units can attack it. It's a bug?

I remember something similar from Age of Empires 1 and 2 so I thought it was intentional.

Here: (at 22:48)

 
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I feel there being a catapult on the island without any explanation is benign. It's more of a viable concept of destroying a ship, I mean there are a lot memes from RTSs about hitting a building with a sword and it catching fire. It just doesn't make sense.

Maybe if it does seem too irregular to have a catapult Rend could just throw an explosive at the ship. Or have the mission start with a transport ship and an Ogre Juggernaut on the docks, later that Juggernaut destroys the ship.
 
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I believe it's a reference to this cutscene from War2: (at 4:07)

This time, Grunt used catapult to destroy human ship :)

Maybe.

Regarding Catapult - I'm afraid if I place it in the map - poeple will ask why they can't control it. And yes it's an easter egg)

True... Maybe it's better to not put a catapult unit.


If ship is close enough to coast, melee units can attack it. It's a bug? I remember something similar from Age of Empires 1 and 2 so I thought it was intentional. Here: (at 22:48)

Never seen that until now. But anyway only one unit attacked the ship so at the end of the day it's always the catapult to activate the trigger.

Maybe add the catapult being builded by a peon until the end of the mission?

Catapults can be build inside the barracks not by peons.
 
Maybe.



True... Maybe it's better to not put a catapult unit.



Never seen that until now. But anyway only one unit attacked the ship so at the end of the day it's always the catapult to activate the trigger.



Catapults can be build inside the barracks not by peons.

haha cool) so the ship becomes voulnerable when cinematic starts, and this guy just sent the order before cinematic started))) nice)
 
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WOOOOW HOW DID YOU MAKE MISSION PROGRESS IN REFORGED AMAZING FIRST TIME I SEE THAT!!!! :O

why people said that cant make progress (items, level, abilities...) in warcraft 3 REFORGED custom missions ???????? :(

I loved so much this map and i loved so much abilities of wolfs :) and food limit no more amazing

one thing farms scale too big ??? hmm may be not

why warcraft 3 reforged look good in cutscenes but gameplay very bad i dont knwo why??!!

old warcraft 3 in gameplay acually is the best hope that blizzard find a solution for that
 
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WOOOOW HOW DID YOU MAKE MISSION PROGRESS IN REFORGED AMAZING FIRST TIME I SEE THAT!!!! :O

why people said that cant make progress (items, level, abilities...) in warcraft 3 REFORGED custom missions ???????? :(

I loved so much this map and i loved so much abilities of wolfs :) and food limit no more amazing

one thing farms scale too big ??? hmm may be not

why warcraft 3 reforged look good in cutscenes but gameplay very bad i dont knwo why??!!

old warcraft 3 in gameplay acually is the best hope that blizzard find a solution for that

you should try the Quenching Mod together with this demo to make it even better
 

Mr Ogre man

Reforged Model Reviewer
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Ok, what about an unselectable peon that is building a catapult close to the starting ship? that'd make it understandable for the players why there's a catapult at the end of the game. Maybe, you can even make the catapult be more built up after wolves and again after the first human incursion, as an easter egg. Just my two cents
 

ShadiHD

Hosted Project: W3CSW
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Ok, what about an unselectable peon that is building a catapult close to the starting ship? that'd make it understandable for the players why there's a catapult at the end of the game. Maybe, you can even make the catapult be more built up after wolves and again after the first human incursion, as an easter egg. Just my two cents


yes I like this suggestion as well, it gives logical explanation.

@Tamplier777
 
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What if the wolves will reach the catapult?

This idea can produce a lot of bugs. People will be expecting playable catapult. I don't like this idea


I don't like this idea too. I'm not a creator of this mod but that's a single easter egg, a tiny detail. I'd rather the creators to focus fully on the gameplay than on logical justification of a few seconds long cutscene with a catapult.

Easier solution: make a new model for this catapult without wheels. This way there will be a damaged catapult that is not useful in normal game but still might work in this situation.
 
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I don't think that is an easy solution, that would be a bit of work for a mundane inconsistency.

Inconsistency would be a reference to nowadays Blizzard :D

It could be just a wreckage from first war that stuck in snow. Anyway, I think it's really a detail and they have more important task to do to finish this project.
 
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Why didn't you made the heroes just some semi-heroes, but with one ability,a bit more damage and health? Like Utok with his heal and Rend with just the battlecry ( roar) i'm just curious..I like the campaing alot..The project alot..I wish I could suport patreon ( But life and poor country). So I'm just courious, why no semi-heroes like wc2.
 
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Bugs found:
  • Chapter 1: I had Blackhand in the shore near the Human camp and it happened to spawn with him right next to them, he was there because I wanted to see if the box near the dock had an item inside. I think Utok and him should be placed somewhere in the base, even though this is a very occasional situation. Also, the Wolf nest/cave should be considered an enemy (and not a neutral) when the wolves start attacking the base.

  • Chapter 2: Nothing to complain here, except for Zul'jin's cutscene voice which is very different from his unit voiceover, is that the one from Heroes of the Storm? It is good, I'm not complaining, but it differs a lot and it kinda bugs me.

  • Chapter 3: This one went smoothly, except for the optional mission about refineries, that got triggered after I destroyed an Human oil platform, and before that I already took down a refinery.

  • Chapter 4: Nothing to report here, worked fine from start to finish. <3

Suggestions:
  • I think the locked-on-unit camera work has hardly found a good way to be used in the whole game, both custom and main campaigns, I'm not a fan of that and I saw a lot of it here. I think more cinematic shots (maybe showing details of the custom models) would increase the quality of the cutscenes.
  • Dewyn's death in Chapter 4 (and some other cutscenes, but this one in particular) felt "empty": he had a full 3 or so minutes introduction with a cutscene that shows his dedication and determination and, when he happens to lose to the Horde, he just gives up and his death also brings nothing to the player, he just dies and the game keeps going normally. Something, like some more dialogue, or an item telling us more about him like an artifact, would be a nice addition.
Final thoughts so far:
This is what I expected from the Reforged modders, having unique models for EACH FACTION from both humans and orcs is a wet dream, as someone that started playing the series from WCII (I was way too little to remember what faction was what color, I also never finished the story, I'm guilty for that, but I seriously loved the game back in the day). I am eager to play the next chapters and see what you got in store.

Also, if you need some voice acting help, I would gladly give my voice for the project:I have a decent mic and some past as a fan-dubber for italian projects, but I speak fluent English, especially if I have to read it lol. I can do a somewhat solid orc impression and have a decent vocal range.
 
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Ok, what about an unselectable peon that is building a catapult close to the starting ship? that'd make it understandable for the players why there's a catapult at the end of the game. Maybe, you can even make the catapult be more built up after wolves and again after the first human incursion, as an easter egg. Just my two cents

After thinking about the idea of the inclusion of a catapult I have to say that @Tamplier777 is right about NOT putting a catapult in the orc base. If you have a catapult, which is a unit with strong attack, someone would think why I can't use it? Since those are the first chapters you can't already have some "advanced" units already available at the beginning.

Easier solution: make a new model for this catapult without wheels. This way there will be a damaged catapult that is not useful in normal game but still might work in this situation.

While this can be a job for the 3D artist I still disagree with the addition of a neutral unit to be used just for that chapter. The chapter starts and ends fine imo. The devs should focus on the rest of the campaign and if there is time they can fix some things. Focusing too much on just fixing stuff in the first 4 chapters will slow down their works.

I tested it and left comments on Discord, but I can copy paste them here if that is more convenient.

Overall, looks great!

I think it's better if you copy and paste your opinion about the campaign here because discord chats tend to be full of new messages every day and it can be hard to recover an old message.

Why didn't you made the heroes just some semi-heroes, but with one ability,a bit more damage and health? Like Utok with his heal and Rend with just the battlecry ( roar) i'm just curious..I like the campaing alot..The project alot..I wish I could suport patreon ( But life and poor country). So I'm just courious, why no semi-heroes like wc2.

I understand your point about having heroes working as normal units but WC2 heroes are simply normal units but with steroids. Instead, having some characters working as heroes makes the game much more interesting. I didn't like having the heroes with the same 2D sprite of normal units in WC2.

Also, if you need some voice acting help, I would gladly give my voice for the project:I have a decent mic and some past as a fan-dubber for italian projects, but I speak fluent English, especially if I have to read it lol. I can do a somewhat solid orc impression and have a decent vocal range.
As I already wrote to someone you can send your voice clips to ShadiHD by sending an email to this address:
[email protected]
 
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Greetings. Ive recently tried to download this campaign and it didn't end up being 785 MB but only about 241 MB, only 2 maps instead of 4 and the files were corrupted. Couldn't unpack them into the WC3 maps folder. Anyone help me with this I'd like to try this campaign out. Never got to play the OG Wc1 or Wc2 but now I have to chance to try Wc2 in Reforged. Let me know if anyone has answers.

Edit: It works. Very impressed. Looking forward to the fixes, voice improvement etc. Rend Blackhand's voice and Utok sound perfect to me though. Great job! You guys are doing what the big dev's couldn't!
 
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I have a question about future factions that we'll have to play with, like Kul'Tiras, the Shattered Hand clan... will they all have different upgrades and stats or they will be the same for all because of the same race?
 
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I think it's better if you copy and paste your opinion about the campaign here because discord chats tend to be full of new messages every day and it can be hard to recover an old message.

Okay, I meant to copy/paste these earlier, but here are my comments which I left in discord. Obviously, some of the issues were already addressed, but I am just doing a backwards search of what I posted and pasting results in chronological order. If it's unclear (since I am not bothering to also add other people's comments) then I can come back and try to tidy it up for clarity.

Hello hello! Great to see this project is really progressing! Downloading the first 4 missions for testing now.
[8:16 PM]
The game already looks super cool from the teasers and such. I already love that you have given lots of attention to detail in the form of unique factional units for the different kingdoms/clans/races/whatevers.

============

Just completed Mission 1 of the demo. Overall, looks great. In general, I find the pacing to be a bit slow, but I think that's really accurate to how WC2 was... LOL. Personally, I'd prefer for this aspect to be updated a little bit but that's subjective and I can understand if you actually wanted this aspect. Now, visuals I have zero criticisms of. All just looked great. I did notice a few things with sound and with mission mechanics. I'll start with sound. Some of the voice work was clearly done with really good microphones and some of it... not so much. It's a bit charring and noticable at times. I noticed this distinctly a few times, but the worst offender was in the cutscene when the Lordaeron footmen/scouts arrive. One of the footmen sounded great and the other sounded like it was in a fish bowl. It also makes it really hard to judge the voice acting fairly when the sound quality just isn't good. I personally failed the bonus mission because for some unknown reason it didn't trigger until after I had already killed the humans and nearly gotten all my resources. I was still attacking the wolves when I got the last bit of lumber I needed and finished the mission. Now, obviously I could have just stopped collecting resources if I had realised this was happening, but I think it is very strange that this happened the way it did. I think it might be because I did not make my last pigfarm until very late in the game and I think the trigger for the wovles attacking was finishing the construction quest. (You actually have to build 6 pigfarms in addition to the one that you start with, making the total 7. I had not noticed this and so initially only had 6 pigfarms total.) I think a possible fix to this would be to make an additional trigger for the quest be if you aggressively scout the map. Before the humans arrived and long before the wolves attacked, I had already scouted the whole map. I found the wolf's den and I was kind of confused about it for a long time.
[10:41 PM]
I feel like attacking it should be another way of triggering the bonus quest.
[10:47 PM]
Oh, doubling back to the sound, the dialogue had a few grammatical errors in the subtitles and I would also suggest a tiny change to when the footmen are complaining. Considering their feudal/medieval society, it makes more sense for soldiers to be complaining about nobles rather than bureaucrats and when the soldier said "Light bless us" from his tone of voice it seemed like to was meant to be more in line with their general complaints about their conditions so maybe the line should be changed to, "Light save us" or "Light curse this blasted cold!" or something. Also, very cool to see lots of named characters. I like that the hero used is Rend Blackhand and I also love the addition of Utok Scratcher. Attention to that sort of detail is something I find great. I hope we see a lot more such characters. Personally, I am hoping to see a young Othmar Garithos or at least hopefully other young versions of named characters we see later in Warcraft 3 or WoW.
[10:47 PM]
That's all, off to mission 2!


======================


Regarding Voice Actingn, it says right away that it's unfinished, we could have removed it entirely and only left orc quotes, but well
@Moonman I saw that and I don't think it would have been a good idea to remove them, but I assumed you still wanted feedback about it.(edited)
[11:38 PM]
Same goes for mission 1 being slow, it's a common feedback hence he have it covered in #❓faq
@Moonman That's not really what I meant. I kind of mean the slowness of the game that was inherent in WC2 itself. Starting with 100 gold (not even enough to start making another peon) and that type of thing.
[11:39 PM]
WC2 was a pretty slow game. Certainly compared to WC3.
[11:40 PM]
If you fix the wolf den quest and add a few neutral hostile enemies like in mission 2 that would probably address the lack of early action that others referred to.
[11:40 PM]
Was I right in assuming the wolves attacking was triggered by the completion of the barracks/pig farms?
[11:42 PM]
I also forgot to mention in Mission 1 that I thought the way that the gold/lumber was stored in a special area for the quest was really cool. Perhaps I just skipped over my positive reviews too quickly by summarizing the visuals as good.


==========================


Mission 2 was solid. I spent a long time trying to get to the top of the waterfall to kill those murlocs around the cauldron and I was kind of expecting a counterattack from the Alliance during this time, but nothing feels wrong about that for mission 2. Actually, the reactiveness of the Alliance forces at various points felt really smooth and lively. I did notice that the tavern didn't burn though, which was weird. I personally attacked all of the neutral buildings until they were red to make the town have a sort of "raided" appearance afterwards, but the tavern was just in perfect condition until it suddenly exploded. I did notice that the troll's facemasks/facepaint/whatever was always red in their icons but always green regardless of whether or not they joined from the trolls (green) or were trained by the orcs (red). I may not remember this 100% accurately, but I think the icon is accurate to how it was in WC2. Their facemask was always red and their haircolour changed based on their team colour. Overall, really enjoying it so far. I think the map design was good in both, but perhaps Mission 2 did a better job in using all of the space more effecitvely. In Mission 1, I kept thinking the right side of the map would open up eventually. Question, do the humans see the orcs and attack them if the signal fire is not put out in time? I may have to go back and test that.



===========================



mission 01 - regarding launching the wolves - yes it is launched when 6 farms and barracks are built. regarding reworking mission - we add content and change the logic of event launching in the final release. If you don't put down the signal fire - you will fail the mission.
@Tamplier777 Sounds good. About the signal fire, do you suddenly fail or is there a little cutscene with the humans swarming your base or something? I wonder if it might be better to just cause the humans to attack you instead of causing you to fail the mission. I think I might still test it to take a look.
Mission 02 - murlocks at the top of waterfall are just for show - there is no way to access them. hovever there is another secret zone in the center of the map) regarding team colored icons - there is not way to control that will check if there is a trigger that can switch icon but i doubt that there is one
@Tamplier777 Oh, yeah, I figured out the thing about the murlocs eventually, lol. I like it as a visual easter egg. I just wasn't sure if there was anything more to it. I'll have another look at mission 2 later to try to find the other secret you mentioned. I thought I had scoured the map but I must have missed it. Regarding the icons, I think I was unclear and had phrased it poorly. I was actually talking about the 3D portraits and the units themselves. I just meant that the units/portraits facemasks matching the icons would look better. Obviously, some of their colours do change based on how they spawn and such, but I think it would be better if their facemask was red like in the icon (which doesn't change) but let their hair be the aspect that does change. Kind of like how a dwarf rifleman's cloak changes colour based on his team but his beard is always grey. I also think it would look better that way because the green is harder to see on green forest trolls and red is a better looking contrast with their already green skin.(edited)
[1:48 AM]
there's no interactive Icons for WC3
@ShadiHD I meant to reply/quote you too above but I scewed it up as I am not overly familiar with Discord.
[1:49 AM]
Also, just generally appreciate how responsive you guys are. Certainly helps make it feel like you care, even if that wasn't already incredibly clear by all the hard work you have obviously put into a custom campaign that already looks great.



===============================


Also, I forgot to add, it felt like persistent bodies was massively increased than in the base WC3 game. I really liked that. My first attack on the prison in Mission 2 was actually a failure as I completely underestimated how strong the towers were and all the bodies left on the ground really made it feel like a real battle had taken place.
[1:59 AM]
Regarding the trolls and colours, I know what you mean about the rescue thing and I like that better as well, but about the rest of it either I don't understand what you mean or I've explained myself poorly because I don't think we're on the same page. It's late and I've stopped playing, but when I play again I will take some screenshots to illustrate what I am trying to say.


===============================


Mission 02 - there is another secret zone in the center of the map)
@Tamplier777 Couldn't sleep so replaying Mission 2 atm. Did you just mean the troll encampment where you pick up a few trolls? Forgot to mention it first time but I found it and it was good. (Oops, nevermind! Found it. Nice.)


==============================


I think I do understand you
@ShadiHD I hope this makes it clear: WC3R Troll Colors Main Issue: when selecting the red troll he still comes up as green in the portrait. Minor Issue: green on green doesn't look good up close in the portrait so I am suggesting that you make the facemask permanently red and not one of the pieces that change colors. Hair, bracers, etc. can all continue being pieces that change colors. For clarity: the icon looks perfect and I was not clear earlier when I used that word. Nothing is wrong with the icon.


==============================


If I knew anything about model creation I'd fiddle with it myself because I am moderately confident that changing only the facemask to red and keeping everything else team color coded will make the troll axe thrower look heaps better in his portrait when he is green, but still not adversely affect the portrait anywhere else. The hair, bracers, etc. all keep provide a lot of color changes. Also, in the portrait, even the lighting around the unit changes color so I think the shift is still very clear. I think it's work tinkering with as it's the only unit I've seen so far whose appearance I took any issues with. Zul'jin himself is solid. Although, I think his master skin from HOTS is absolutely AWESOME and personally, I'd love to see it. Especially in a later mission in the campaign. Like, in this mission he's a prisoner so he's been stripped pretty bare, but to see him decked out in a later mission would be awesome. He is a hero and the main leader of the Amani afterall. Zul'jin Master Skin That's a totally random suggestion though. Not based on any criticism. Just a random idea as I was thinking about trolls.

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Yeah, teal is definately an improvement over dark green. Though I just want to mention that I don't think they were ever orange as someone mentioned. WC2 Zul'jin had a teal scarf and at some point they made it purple so it was purple ever since then. I think Blizzard made that change for the same reason I mentioned aboove. Teal is an improvement over dark green, but the contrast still isn't great, and they made Zul'jin purple to set him apart from the basic red faced forest trolls. So nobody likes the idea of Zul'jin getting his elite armor in later levels then?


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Playing Mission 3 atm. Are the ships supposed to miss a lot? It feels like they are missing a lot of shots that should hit (such as against other ships on the same level of terrain).

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Also I love the north part of the map. I like that scouting that far reveals hillsbrad's southern shores. Definitely helps bring it all to life.


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So far I am happy with difficulty. I already almost lost Mission 3 because I wasn't prepared for the enemies ships attacking my base so early and I hear Mission 4 is really hard. Early missions should be easy. Remember that not everyone is pro and they need to have progressive difficulty. And the guys developing this are already putting in a collosal effort. Making different difficulty levels means they have rebalance every mission like 2-3 times.


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Cause forcing the player to make 10 grunts that is basically what he needs to win the mission in a breeze
@Avekatten(Retired Gamer) Could just change that to 5 grunt quest requirement.


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Also, I like that food caps are not so low. Food caps are from a begone era when the computer would explode if it was processing too many troops. If I wanna make big armies, I think it's stupid for the game to gimp that.


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Yeah, some people like to rush, and some people like to turtle. I think it's bad game design to try to force people to play "as intended". I like it better how it is so you can just have fun however you like.
[5:57 PM]
Anyway, Mission 3 completed. It was dope.


================================


Just finished Mission 4. Overall, I'd say this is really solid as well.
[1:21 AM]
Difficulty was good imo. It started to get more challenging, but I managed it without having to restart. Lost plenty of soldiers and towers, but won out in the end.
[1:22 AM]
I think the appearances of the towns was pretty good. I liked the way the camp looked and how Hillsbrad looked. I thought the progressive fires in the unattackable buildings and the other effects like the villagers hiding in the buildings was excellent. Although, the children were not auto attacked by the horde and they sometimes glitched and didn't run out either so they just hanged out among the orcs and trolls which I thought was weird.
[1:23 AM]
I liked the Stormwind Captain hero, although I can't remember who he was from the lore.


I didn't see the Magistrate outside of the cutscenes so I don't know if he was supposed to be a hero or not, but since his character was cowardly I also wasn't surprised to not see him in battle.
[1:24 AM]
The Magistrate was not named, but the Captain was named Mervyn or something like that.
[1:25 AM]
I would say my main criticism of Mission 4 was some of the dialogue in the cutscenes. It could definitely be improved. And I am not talking about the voice acting but the script itself. I feel like it didn't flow very naturally at times and could also benefit from being more concise.
[1:25 AM]
Camera work (is that the right word even?) for the cutscenes was great though.



Even though the voice acting still needs work, I personally like that they are recording entirely new lines and stuff. I hope they keep working at it from that angle.


There was a bit more chatting in the discord after that (SEVEN MORE PAGES LOL) but I think that covers most of my feedback on the missions themselves. I am feeling a bit lazy right this second, but looking at this mess it feels a bit messy and I think I will come back and tidy it up later.
 
Level 3
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
33
Looks so good but unfortunately I don't have Reforged :(
Do you have any plan on making a non-HD version for the original WC3 after this?
 
Level 4
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
107
You started up the mission and he wasn't there? Didn't have that problem. Try restarting the mission?

Didn't work. When I did my first play through of all four missions I had no issues. Now when I try mission 4 Rend is completely non-existent. Only his voice is present in cutscenes. It's like as if he wasn't even part of the map. I'm sure if I redownload the campaign it may fix it.
 
Level 12
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
906
I just played the four maps.

Omg omg omg omg, it was amazing.

I'm writing an in-depth feedback, where do you want me to post it? Main map thread? Newly hosted hive forum? Discord? Here?

It can be like 2-3 pages long (of things which could be improved).

5/5 recommended :)
 
Level 12
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
906
Hey there!

Here's my feedback. I kinda got carried away, the feedback is 17 pages long :vw_wtf:

Download the full feedback in PDF in linked files at the bottom of this post.

Here's the table of content:
Table of Content
Good points

Improvement Areas
Difficulty
Warcraft 2 Gameplay Fidelity
Oil Management
Advanced Building System
Hero Abilities
Treasure Hunt
Navy & Hero
Navy Size
Map Size
Combat Area Size
Structure Path Map
Mission Adaptation
Mission Rhythm
Refreshment
Resource Depletion
Resource Management
Hero Death
Difficulty Curve
Computer & AI
Plot Introduction
Loading Map Clarity
Dialogues
Upkeep UI
Shipyard Unlock Unclear

Conclusion

Other Notes
Ragdolls
Hit Particle Effects
Building Ruins
City Destruction Ambience
Terraining
Framerate
Icon Position
Elven Frigate
Unit Tooltip

Here's the "good point review":
Good points
Interesting Plot Focus - we all want to play this part of the Warcraft story

Modernized Warcraft 2 - while I have many things to say about this, it's great to play through the Warcraft 2 mission with heroes and modernized gameplay

New Units & Buildings - it's almost as if we had a Warcraft expansion with the countless additions of custom sound cues, buildings, units, heroes and navy, it's astonishing, for this sole reason I’d recommend playing this campaign (props to the Oil Tanker system with the animation/sound and everything!)

Voice Acting - while there are many "issues" as mentioned at the beginning of each map, it's incredible to get a fully voiced campaign with that level of quality

It was incredible discovering all of the aforementioned points, and for these reasons it makes the entire campaign feel and play pretty pretty good, almost professional! I would highly recommend anyone to play this campaign just to discover what truly talented, dedicated and passionate people can make.

Here's an extract of one of the improvement points:
Warcraft 2 Gameplay Fidelity

I think I can safely say that nobody cares if your campaign is not faithful to the Warcraft 2 gameplay. I assume that we care about playing that part of the story (discovering the characters, playing them) and getting what got removed transitioning to Warcraft 3 (navy, paladin or ogre units for instance). That’s what people care about imho.

It means that I think you should get rid of anything that just is not fun and add anything that would seem to be needed / fun in the campaign (if it’s within your reach) even if it was not in Warcraft 2.

It’s already not completely “faithful” but I felt like I should give some examples of what I mean: add new units to the roster, add the altar/hero building, add “navy” heroes, make Oil an item stored in shipyards (instead of a resource), make less buildings (we don’t need 3 navy buildings for instance), get rid of the “advanced building”, rework the tech tree, make building pathing smaller, unlock units/tech at a different pace (and many other things).

One prime example of this could be the will to remake the turret models from Warcraft 2. While it might sound like a great idea on paper, it just makes “scout towers” completely similar to “guard tower” graphically speaking (as they were back then). While playing it’s close to impossible to distinguish them from one another, I had to click on them to know if they had an attack or not. Another example is the use of +100 resources instead of +10, while on paper it reminds of Warcraft 2 in game it just confuses the player for no reason (it’s easier dealing with lower numbers).

Basically I think you should get the plot, the units, the heroes from Warcraft 2 and make a modernized Warcraft 3 campaign with it. That means getting rid of everything tedious from Warcraft 2 and 3 campaigns (easier said than done, I admit).


Hero Abilities

Hero Abilities could be a bit more compelling, we have like two point and clicks (poisoned axe and rend), one warcry and the rest is like “don’t need to think about it” (bouncing axe, regeneration and warmarching aura). And we have a “demi-hero” which we have to focus in order to use its “point and click damage” (so, a third point and click damage) and spam his regeneration whenever it’s up (because he’s been promoted to main tank).

With the evolution of Warcraft 3, we’ve seen crazy abilities being made with triggers (but good ability design doesn’t necessarily mean having to add code on top of it). This made players used to more complex and subtle abilities. Basically abilities that have multiple situational uses, versatile uses, abilities that should be used in conjunction, in succession or on the contrary avoid overlapping etc.

It would be great to see more of that for both Rend Blackhand and Zul’jin. A few examples could be: Rend warcry taunts enemy units, his aura also have an activatable part which increases armor or damage bonus but has a huge cooldown, Zul’jin throws an axe which comes back to him, damaging enemies once more etc, his Tazdingo should have an impact over all Trolls and not only him (for now that’s just a “press whenever able and forget it exists” button, btw props for adding the sounds for Heroes of the Storm!). “The Pack” suffers from kind of the same issue.

As a general rule of thumb, I’d say aura and passive alone are not interesting in general. Single damage abilities are only interesting if they are highly spammable or should be used at specific times. And ultimates should always offer a counterpart to using them (most of the time it’s simply the cooldown which is so high that using it now is a cost versus using it later on). But simply putting “The Pack” and “Tazdingo” on higher cooldown wouldn’t make them better, it would just make them worst. Because they’re not really “ultimate” material right now.

I’d suggest removing most (if not all) abilities from the Demi-Hero and put more emphasis on creating more compelling abilities for Heroes (Heroes will demand more micro than the rest, that’s why they are quickly accessible using F1/F2 etc., but Demi-Hero are not).
 

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