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Balance Changelog: Wish List, Wish not List, and questions

Discussion in 'Warcraft Discussion' started by Map Designer, Apr 15, 2020.

  1. Map Designer

    Map Designer

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    Hello,

    please explain the reason whenever possible, for your wish list, wish not list, or questions.
    Wish list: put what you really like to see in future updates.
    Wish not list: put what you wish never happened (not the ones you wish will never happen, becuz there are infinite ways to screw the balance that no one wishes)
    Confused list: ask balance questions here; put your doubts about balance of particular unit/ability.
    Perfect changes list: the changes that are just perfect for game balance.


    You can also criticize anyone elses wish list, or comment about it.
    Here are thoughts:

    Wish list:
    1. Avatar of vengeance no longer spell immune.
      Reason: if you compare this to other Doom guard summon (pit lord lvl 6): Doom is melee, vulnerable to magic, has more HP, guaranteed kill on a unit, but if cast on flyers, it can be denied by dying on water/trees. it only make sense to have ranged summon slightly worse, especially that it summons INVLUNERABLE spirits of vengeance. what makes sense, is that there has to be a weak spot, and that weak spot is to target their summoner avatar of vengeance, and then we make it magic immune????? makes no sense.
    2. Fix Channeling abilities:
      instead of make Tranquility give invulnerability for 3 seconds (1.29), better make it give magic immunity or and effect similar to amulet of spell shield. The real problem with channeling spells was that they are easily canceled with raider ensnare. Two possible fixes here: 1-) ensnare cant target heroes (lazy fix) 2-) or 2-)make ensnare not cancel channeling ultimates (not sure if they should cancel regular channeling blizzard/Healing spray).
    3. Far sight for thrall and summon owl for tyrande should be replaced with an actual ability (can still make them regular abilities like shadow meld):
      Reason: most heroes have 3 useful abilities, which adds to the variety of the game. Exceptions are BM's mostly ignore mirror image, Naga ignoring mana shield, and keeper ignoring thorns aura in early game (because early NE are not tanky). other than that, all other heroes occasionally use their unpopular abilities (DK use death pact lvl 4, paladin can go for devotion aura, Anub'arak can summon beetles).
    4. Replace Magic Immunity with 80% spell resistance+resistance skin (Breakers, Dryads, Destroyers).
      Reason: Mirror Spell immune is very boring; I'd rather make the game more appealing by introducing buffs/debuffs; it will make the game more interesting.
    5. Blood Mage Mana siphon can target Mechanical units (obsedien statues). It should still not target buildings, or it should have much lesser effect against buildings.
    6. Buff footman defend: make it work (less effectively) vs magic attacks/spells. e.g. defend will ignore magic bonus vs heavy armor (i.e. it will reduce magic damage by 50%; not spells)
      Reason: Footmen so bad late game. the only tier 1 unit which is never useful late game.
    7. Why is TC war stomp have huge radius (semilar to MK thunder clap before it got buffed).
      Reason: if anything, it seems to me that it should have smaller radius, because AOE stun is always better than AOE slow. this will not hurt TC+lightening shield combo, because lightening shield radius is already much smaller (160 compared to stomp 350). reducing stomp radius to 200/225/250 seems fine to me. the stomp area is actually so huge late game, its almost imba. I get it that MK have other stuns but TC also have other abilities and walks much faster than MK. I wouldn't want to reduce the stomp damage because it can serve as refund for the wasted TC animation.
    Wish not list:
    1. I wish warsong battle drum still gave command aura.
      Reason: there doesnt seem to be any item drop which makes some units mostly useless. one important aspect of the kodo beast is the aura, and it will be denied if the item is taken, pushing the orcs to sell this item. compared to other aura dropped, if one race gets unfavourable aura item drop, he can still play around it in two ways: either not train the hero which has the aura, or get the hero but opt for other skill build. so the hero is still nearly fully utilized up until lvl 7, which most of games do not reach. on the other hand, orcs now have no way to play around this item drop. This IS probably why the original designers decided to change the aura for the item to be command aura, Despite the item name fitting the drums aura, and despite this so called consistancy issue raised in the new updates; they probably knew exactly about it, and still decided against it for balance reasons. 1.31 changelog said "Dev comment: This is currently the only aura item that stacks with a similar aura from one of the playable races. This is a slight nerf to Orc, but it does make the aura items overall more unified and operate without exceptions." the devs forgot that this is the only aura provided by a unit and not by a hero, which is why it HAD to be an exception.
    2. BM storm no longer blocks ensnare.
      Reason: the BM is clearly moving very fast that the raiders net have no chance to catch him. if anything, its the ensnare should block the storm usage, but once its used, it should no longer affect the BM. I blv the original WC3 designers had the right idea
    3. NE archer health being nerfed down to 245.
      Reason: I get it that this is because archers were kinda OP, but this could have been fixed in some other ways, for e.g. making archers start with -6 armor, making them bad in combat HP, but not very vulnerable to nukes. and then their HP is buffed to 300-ish again. NVM this wouldnt change anything much actually, only making moonwell heals worse for archers. well, at least it could be 275 HP and thats enough nerf, 245 is over kill.
    Confused list:
    1. Healing wave & spirit link for human:
      Human HP is much lower than orcs. it seems to me that from balance point of view, orcs like holy light more, and humans like to have spirit link+healing wave more than orcs, because human units can be easily focused, and can bearly tank even with spirit link. orc units on the other hand can easily tank spell damage even without spirit link (and the meta has shifted slightly away from spirit walkers it seems, orcs can do just fine without spirit link). Humans with priest+spirit link and healing wave/healing spray seems good. maybe imba?
    2. Why magic training no longer gives bonus Damage for spell casters in TFT? it seemed nice addition. is it really broken? will casters be imba?
    3. Wind riders have 570 HP, much less than other flyers? is it because they have piercing attacks, which makes them kinda hard counters for all other flyers? wind vs other flyers seem balanced considering armor types, (but hyppogryph rider will imba in that regard)


    Perfect Balance changes:
    1. Bm ww 2 sec CD
    2. Blink CD rebalance: that ablity was OP.
    3. ring of protection and evasion

    @Shar Dundred @Norris @Cleclejossstone @morbent @RED BARON
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
  2. RED BARON

    RED BARON

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    I mean, is this a wishlist for the old or the new one?
     
  3. Map Designer

    Map Designer

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    you mean for 1.26 or for 1.32 version of warcraft?

    its what you would like to see in melee games and find it balanced, regardless of your version I guess.
     
  4. RED BARON

    RED BARON

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    I mean, is this for Warcraft III or Reforged, which to me makes a massive difference, even more so with the differences between Frozen Throne and Reign of Chaos.

    At any rate, assuming this was the original, I do wish they could somehow make boats more balanced. Also I like your Confused list, point 1 and wish list point 4. Generally I am in favor of most things that species up strategies and opens up for a very varied amount of builds - even if not necessarily constantly in perfect balance, but instead allowing for a state of flux.

    As an odd example:
    While I know it is an old thing, just the fact that a Blademaster rush could work has always struck me as annoying, while the Photon cannon rush in Starcraft was fun. I guess it is the difference in commitment and the ease of negation, if that makes any sense.

    As a side note, your wish not list, is also a wishlist - but in regards to things that was changed, which should not have been?
     
  5. Map Designer

    Map Designer

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    hmmm, I thought about it again. humans can always hire alchemist for spread healing; seems better than paladin heal. though they cant always get spirit link :D
    Exactly. things that originally more fitting and more balanced, but turned broken due to that change.
    things that were orignally well thought but were changed by an unthought idea.
    even though this thread is supposed to be about balance, you can think of game sense and what not, the the BM with blade storm and being ensnared. any change in this is more or less balanced because this only affects orc vs orc mirror, but it just adds up that BM blade storm cannot be ensnared. he is too fast for it.
     
  6. Map Designer

    Map Designer

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    Alright, so I gave the Tauren Cheiftan stomp a little more thought.


    the reason why the ability is imbalanced compared to MK Thunder Clap is because War Stomp scales in all fields: Damage, Radius, and DURATION. if compared to MK, Thunder Clap has no duration scaling.

    there are many ways this could be rebalanced, and the most reasonable one imo is to make War Stomp Duration constant, only radius and damage increase with levels. that way it will be easily compared to MK.

    @deepstrasz @Ender Wiggins @Aggiba @pussycat what do you think? and what is your wish list?
     
  7. Aggiba

    Aggiba

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    Wish
    1. Unholy Frenzy effect on heroes should be 75% AS too, like it does on non-heroes.
    2.
    Meat Wagon and Glaive Throwers should be affected by armor upgrades.
    3
    . Ancestral Spirit mana cost should be reduced(to 200 maybe because 250 is very much disadvantageous to SW's)
    4.
    Abominations should have lesser collision size and quicker turn rate, it is the unit that deals the heaviest normal damage from the UD army yet it a group of aboms can't focus on a single unit due to their stupidly large collision size and slow turn rate
    5. There should be a neutral building where players can hire strong creeps (aside from the dragons since they're just physically op but skill-wise they're not game-changing). A building where we can hire e.g.
    Faceless One Terror/Deathbringer, Magnataur Reaver/Destroyer, Storm Wyrms
    6. A tome or maybe a charged item that refreshes ability cooldown, a level 8 item drop for red camps, that are present in large FFA maps since battles never end in FFA
    7. Demon Hunter's i
    mmolation should stack with cloak of flames. It's unfair for DH for fighting orange camps and get an utterly useless reward.
    8. Unloaded transportation(e.g.
    zeppelin) should move faster, and when loaded they move slower.
    9.
    Chimaera attacks shouldn't affect your own units.

    Wish not
    1. Ancestral spirit should always break food limit, updates stopped it from doing so
    2.
    Gryphon Aviary techtree requirement should be Castle & Lumber Mill like it used to. Now it requires Keep & Lumber Mill, and you'll just train gryphon when castle's done, unlike tauren, chims, and frost wyrms while they have long training times
    3.
    Archer hp should at least exceed 250, because they always get nuked and ravaged

    (About nerfing TC, I gave it a thought. In early levels, MK is a lot better since he can 1st/3rd/1st/3rd skill build. While a low lvl TC can't do much, short ranged stun and slow MS. I think TC will bear the fruits of the AOE in his high levels so it's just fine)
     
  8. pussycat

    pussycat

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    I have only one wish for those fools who made wc3 reforged, i wish them all burn in hell in peace :D
     
  9. Map Designer

    Map Designer

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    I never knew about that. its not stated in any changelog i've seen. its also not mentioned in Necromancer or Necromancer (Warcraft III)


    I can understand why you want that for glaives, but why the meat wagons? meat wagons are by far the best siege weapon because it has additional skeleton ability. that thing is fine as is. making corpse on top of being siege weapon is no joke. If you make it as powerful then it will be straight up better than other siege weapons.

    anyway, have you looked at the numbers? hang on let me pull my spread sheet.

    FootVsGrunt03.png

    as you can see, Meat Wagon Has greatest DPS and its even better than Orc Demolishers (after they got nerfed). though before the nerf demolisher got slightly better DPS (46 compared to 44 of meat wagons)

    hmmm, not sure. that ability seem strong to me. though 200 should be fine too. if I was doing the balance, I would reduce it step by step 225 and then if its still abysmal i'd go for 200, but not in one go, just to be sure things go smoothely balance isn't broken.

    what you say may be right. though they have same size as Touren. their abilities are better than nights but worse than Tourens; thats only natural because tourens are more expensive and cost more food. I always thought cannabalize was good but no one seem to like that ability. I guess its because it wastes a lot of time.

    As for Turn rate, you made valid point. Turn rate make sense since aboms are clumsy and if they move too quickly might fall apart :p but thats is not a balance reason so your point still stands.

    now for collision size: I think whole collision size mechanics should be rethought. Footman has less collision than NE archer?!! if aboms Collision Size was reduced from 48 to 32 he will be as big as NE archer!! Currently Human Night and NE Bear Form are also as big as NE archer LOL. I guess archer had to have larger size because otherwise it will be OP because archer will come very close to each other and have very strong fire power

    hmm, there arent that many lvl 8 items. its hard to compare. I dont see any charged lvl 8 in my editor, so this will be the only item. The idea may be good, but there needs to be other items too; otherwise, this will make heroes with longer CD naturally benifit more from this item.
    Blood mage has 0 CD for banish, its only double flame strike thats good. paladin shield might be imba if its not charged. MK avatar, DH meta, and TC reincarnate will also be imba.

    the item might be fine if he only if it does not reset ultimate CD's


    you can give it to your other melee hero (panda). It is more important to complain about Aura items than this item imo, because auras do not stack.
    though I have Question regarding this: if panda and DH are both standing next to an enemy unit, would it the damage stack? I think not but I haven't tested.


    this would be cool


    hmmm, maybe that would make them cost 6 food instead then. Frost wyrms do not attack allies too iirc.
    You haven't mentioned the Dragon Hawk Riders, which is the reason why this update came into place to begin with. also, from 1.30 patch notes
    and so tourens and gryphons are the same in this sense.
    this one is actually pretty hard if you think about it; that is why I canceled my wish. Currently archer HP is 260: are you satisfied with that?
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  10. Aggiba

    Aggiba

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    i'm using 1.27 so i don't know much about 1.30 and up