Are people stupid?

Are people stupid?


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Level 9
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This is a very, very important question.
When I say "people" I mean the crowd, the majority, the masses.
If the answer is "yes" the whole concept of democracy becomes empty, useless, and dangerous.
Please think of it well before voting.

I personally think that people's minds are very, very easy to control
by the media. That could explain why we elected Berlusconi 3 times.
 
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No one is 'stupid' their intelligence is equal to yours in some areas, lacks in some, and exceeds abundantly in others, in areas compared to yours, or mine.

The average "howdy y'all! ah-hyuck-hyuck! I'ma shootin me sum possum!" redneck is just as intelligent as Steven Hawking. It is merely that Steven Hawking's intelligence, and education to refine that intelligence, is centered in science, where as Joe Redneck's intelligence is in survival, hunting, fishing, and skills with his hands, or else being rather 'cunning' on welfare laws. Things that Hawking cannot do, does not know how to, or has no knowledge of (not counting his obvious disability)

Now taking these two extremes, and normalizing them, you get the average human population.

All equally intelligent, the only differing factor being 'where their intelligence is centered'.

A Kenyan hunter, will survive in the desert longer than the average ivy league chemist. Even though the Kenyan hunter doesn't even know how to read, let alone obtain a doctorate in chemistry. This is because the Kenyan's skills and intelligence for desert survival, and experience, vastly exceed those of the chemist.

An IQ score is not a proper measure of intelligence, it is the application of what you do know, that shows how 'smart' you are.

The problem with masses and voting as you have put up as your example, is that each of these individual, equal yet spread intelligences, are under the realm of opinion, which can be swayed by many means.

Minorities are swayed often by minority 'unique' opinions, while the majority usually seeks majority backing.

Intelligence becomes less of a factor in the decisions for future leaders, because more factors are taken into account over the long campaign. How does the person act, how does he present himself, does he make you feel safe, does he appeal to your better natures, does he promise the things you want...intelligence takes the passenger seat when these things are taken into focus, through clever campaigning.

People can be 'dumb' but not stupid.
 
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This is a terrible topic.

And what the hell are you talking about Elenai? People have vastly different intelligences. People are not equal except in dignity.
 
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ya...some people are just plain stupid....i knew this kid from my school who, honest to god, was the fucking most stupid person in the whole fucking world. he had no common sense, no book sense, no insight, etc.
and just because you are good at fishing does not mean you are smart. smartness now adays is often measured by how useful you are and how well you do on tests that measure your "smartness", such as school tests, iq test, etc.
 
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Everyone is stupid in the begin, when they learnt nothing. Everyone is smart at the end, when they got wise by bitter experience.
Meh. Not too much difference between people. Everyone knows something better then the other.
We need people for jobs, a government, food, work.. So I guess dumb people are also needed in the world?
 
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I have no clue what the fuck Elenai is going on about, I think the "Everyone is good at something!" kids commercials have gotten to you.

Everyone is not equal to each other in intelligence, welfare and a plethora of other things. It's just a simple fact that some people are born superior (in (a) certain perspective(s)).

People aren't stupid, people are people. This poll is generalizing the population as a single entity, with that in mind, the "masses" can't be stupid. Because if everyone was stupid, no one would be smart. Rendering "smart" obsolete, which in turn means that it's opposite (Stupid) doesn't exist in that regard either.

You can't describe the masses as "Stupid" because that would be hypocritical seeing as we are the ones who created that definition in the first place. How can it be held accountable if us, the stupid people, are the ones who define what is stupid and what is smart?

The word you're looking for here is "Human". People are "Human". And I guess in an ironic twist that's a flaw in itself.
 
Level 33
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And what the hell are you talking about Elenai? People have vastly different intelligences. People are not equal except in dignity.

...But they are...

ya...some people are just plain stupid....i knew this kid from my school who, honest to god, was the fucking most stupid person in the whole fucking world. he had no common sense, no book sense, no insight, etc.

He still had an area with which he vastly exceeds you in his intelligence towards that point. That much is assured. Unless he had a disability, with which it then becomes your point to NOT call him stupid, since it is not his fault.

and just because you are good at fishing does not mean you are smart.

Oh yes it does, smarter than you at fishing, I would assume.

Fishing isn't just throwing a line, you have to know when the best time to fish is, the best bait, etc, etc...there is alot of skill involved in the preparation.

smartness now adays is often measured by how useful you are and how well you do on tests that measure your "smartness", such as school tests, iq test, etc.

"Nowadays" is a poor way to measure anything...especially intelligence..."Nowadays" is what...100 years max?

For the past 10,000+ years intelligence was measured by how well you could continue your survival by applying what you had to a situation...like...

"I've got two rocks..a stick...and some animal intestines that dry up and become a tight thing I shall call "string"....neat! I'll make a pointy stick! And then I can kill this darn mammoth and finally feed my family and clothe them before everything turns to ice and I freeze to death."

IQ tests, standardized testing (No child left behind anyone? fail...), and etc...were not even existent...writing wasn't even around!

And I can tell you, that it probably took a boat load of intelligence to figure out how to make a bow and fletch an arrow in those days, when you didn't even live in a hut, and you only lived to be about 24 years old. Let alone a school...or a university...
 
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Level 14
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So you're saying people in the Stone Age were as intelligent as we are now?
People have different levels of intelligence, thats a fact. Yeah, some dumb people might be better at fishing than some smart people, but the smart people could learn how to fish. The dumb guys wouldn't be able to learn advanced astrophysics. That's actually what intelligence is dude.

But we're derailing. I believe the OP was about crowd psychology, not about intelligence.
 
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So you're saying people in the Stone Age were as intelligent as we are now?

Yes. Infact, probably smarter. Something tells me that most of you wouldn't have thought of the idea to put a stick and a rock together to make a weapon (IE: to have invented the spear)

And take into account, that you must have invented it without having already seen a spear, or similar device.

People have different levels of intelligence, thats a fact. Yeah, some dumb people might be better at fishing than some smart people, but the smart people could learn how to fish.

Don't doubt the learning abilities of anyone. First of all: Anyone can learn anything, if they have the right education, the right tools, and the money to get there. It doesn't matter who you are, or what your background is.

Shall I cite examples of formerly primitive Amazonian tribes who now have computers, and have learned how to pilot aircraft after being taught?

The dumb guys wouldn't be able to learn advanced astrophysics. That's actually what intelligence is dude.

Again, don't doubt the learning abilities of a person.

Knowledge, is not intelligence, application of what you know! is intelligence.

I can know the distance between the Earth and every planet in the solar system...but that load of trivia is useless if I don't apply it. And if I don't apply it, then I am nothing more than a useless, dumb, living, data collector.

But we're derailing. I believe the OP was about crowd psychology, not about intelligence.

If that is the case, it should be stated more clearly...though I'd go so far as to say: "What is a crowd, but a group of individuals?"
 
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That anyone can learn anything thing is just not true. For example there are people who are so backward that their intelligence is at level of 5 year old and they just cant learn all the stuff most people can.

Lifes unfair eh?
 
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Yes. Infact, probably smarter. Something tells me that most of you wouldn't have thought of the idea to put a stick and a rock together to make a weapon (IE: to have invented the spear)
And take into account, that you must have invented it without having already seen a spear, or similar device.
And something tells me I would. Right.. you shouldn't look at this in terms of relative intellect.

Don't doubt the learning abilities of anyone. First of all: Anyone can learn anything, if they have the right education, the right tools, and the money to get there. It doesn't matter who you are, or what your background is.

Shall I cite examples of formerly primitive Amazonian tribes who now have computers, and have learned how to pilot aircraft after being taught?
How many of the Amazon people can learn how to fly an airplane? How many people that can fly an airplane can live like the Amazon people? But yeah if you believe that anyone can learn anything it's a bit difficult to argue. Some people just dont have the brain capacity to learn very advanced things. In fact, most people don't.

People nowadays have bigger prefontal cortex and overall brainmass. This allows us to reason, plan, to solve problems, think abstractly, use language and learn. Do you also think a mouse is as intelligent as we are?

Again, don't doubt the learning abilities of a person.

Knowledge, is not intelligence, application of what you know! is intelligence.

I can know the distance between the Earth and every planet in the solar system...but that load of trivia is useless if I don't apply it. And if I don't apply it, then I am nothing more than a useless, dumb, living, data collector.
Yes you are right, but an astrophysicist will be able to make calculations based on that information, a fisherman wouldn't.

If that is the case, it should be stated more clearly...though I'd go so far as to say: "What is a crowd, but a group of individuals?"
Yeah it's just what I read in it. But a crowd is so much more than a group of individuals, I can tell you that.
 
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No, people who vote for Obama are generally stupid:

They vote for him because he's mainstream (he's on TV more than other candidates)
They vote for him because he's black (they want a pres that's black)
They vote for him because he's a man

Tell me why else they would vote for him. He was hardly a senator, and he has no credentials at all. No one in America other than people in Chicago even knew who he was until the primaries started. No one knows anything about him. He has no experience and he shows it too. So what if he can talk to the masses? He hasn't proved he's a good president but people still say he's going to be the best president ever. And don't give me that "he hasn't had enough time" bullshit. He's done enough already to show that he's not worthy of being president.
 

Rui

Rui

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People who are stupid, yet good (intentioned), often need to stop being both before because of those who are stupid, but bad. There are people who just don't want to see the light, especially when speaking of humanity. That's what makes the latter type of people so detestable.
 
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I can tell you that if I voted for Obama, it would not be because he was mainstreamed, black, or a man. I do not give a fuck what their race is, what gender, how popular they are. I would base my vote on how well I think they could be the head of the Executive branch. And you cannot say that he is a bad president. It takes years to figure out if a president is good or not. Some people may think his policies are bad NOW, but in many years, they could turn out to have done better than worse.

@Elenei

No, he was not smarter than me in any regard. He had no disability. He was just fucking stupid. I already told you, he had nothing going for him in smarts. I wrestle, and he was on the wrestling team. He wasnt even good at wrestling because he did stupid things. Smartness is needed in most everything, and he excelled in nothing.

No, just because you are good at fishing doesnt mean you are smart. It means you have more experience in fishing. The cavemen did not one day say, oh, i am going to use this stone, stick, etc to make a spear. It did not happen over night. I happened over MANY years due to trial and error and luck. Silly putty was not invented on purpose, it was created on accident due to a military project to create cheap rubber for the boots of soldiers.

Smartness is too general of a term to single down into one question such as "are the masses stupid?"

Oh, and in addition, you are saying that people are stupid becauase in your opinion that has no basis what so ever, that we could not make a spear? Who created the pyramids, who created the gattling gun, who created the motorcycle? HUMANS. Humans are very inventive at their best, but at their worst they are short sighted and do not realize how their actions will affect the future. You could say that creating a spear was "smart"...but it probably was one of the stepping stones that lead to war. However, humans back then probably did not have the insight to see thus far. They were only going out for their survival.
 
Level 25
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Define Stupid. A person can be a Math Genius but socially stupid or the contrary.
Every one of us have his own share of stupidity in some areas.
I should guess that you meant stupid as with low IQ and as you can see, not all people have the same IQ. but most of the people with IQ disadvantage, have made balance by being smart in something else (again repeating my example, Social IQ).
Edit: This thread is turning into a political debate as I notice :/ (stupidity and Obama relation discussion)
 
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But there are some that are both plain dumb and socially incapable, as well as people that are terribly intelligent and very social also. They are not equal in intelligence. The lack of as you called it 'social IQ' doesn't automatically mean you're good in something else. You can be, of course, but it isn't a given.
 
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No, he was not smarter than me in any regard. He had no disability. He was just fucking stupid. I already told you, he had nothing going for him in smarts. I wrestle, and he was on the wrestling team. He wasnt even good at wrestling because he did stupid things. Smartness is needed in most everything, and he excelled in nothing.

Passing by the superiority complex...

I assure you this: He had a skill, with which you failed at in comparison to him. He is smarter than you at something, in his opinion perhaps...you are the idiot.

What goes on in the privacy of his mind might show an intelligence far greater than you expect, just waiting to surface.

Einstein was considered a retard.

No, just because you are good at fishing doesnt mean you are smart. It means you have more experience in fishing.

"No, just because you know a large of trivia doesn't meant you are smart. It means you have more information."

The cavemen did not one day say, oh, i am going to use this stone, stick, etc to make a spear. It did not happen over night.

No but one day he decided to try and make something and use it. And this was when primitive humans lived in tiny little families separated from each other by miles, and miles of wilderness and wild animals, disease, and dangers...IE: they often had to reinvent the wheel.

It happened over MANY years due to trial and error and luck.

"Application of gathered knowledge"

OH LOOK! intelligence...

Silly putty was not invented on purpose, it was created on accident due to a military project to create cheap rubber for the boots of soldiers.

Who mentioned silly putty?

Oh, and in addition, you are saying that people are stupid becauase in your opinion that has no basis what so ever, that we could not make a spear?

No.

I'm saying that we today consider ourselves so much more intelligent simply because we have shinier toys, but when you look right down at the root of it, we would be no more or less intelligent than what our ancestors, if we did not have such layers of knowledge and experience to APPLY to a given situation.

And that infact, our ancestors may be 'more intelligent' by the little scale my opponents are trying to use BECAUSE they didn't have such layers of knowledge as we do now, and had to invent much of civilization from scratch, or with less layers of knowledge.

Who created the pyramids, who created the gattling gun, who created the motorcycle? HUMANS.

And all of those skills and intelligences and applications of said knowledge in said fields are what makes all people (who are not disabled) equally intelligent to each other.

"Why make a motorcycle, when you could make 'this', you are clearly stupid, you are a freakin retard! A motorized bike will never work, go into architecture, THAT'S useful!"

"A MOTORIZED BIKE! You're a freakin GENIUS!"

"Why go into architecture? For goodness sakes, we have enough architects! Do something useful! Be a baker!"

"What an AWESOME building you've devised, it is earthquake, AND fire resistant!"

"Why be a baker? Gawd....what a horridly dumb thing to be! Only poor men, and only idiots, are bakers! Be a distinquished, and intelligent young man, become an astrophysicist!"

"Dear heavens Mr. Bakersman, you've devised a new recipee for bread that can literally end world hunger!"

____

The examples above are there to show that what one man considers about a person's intelligence and the level of it, is a false and arrogant assumption based on their own self-superior idea of what makes a person smart. But in the end, it is the application of what ever skill they have chosen to go into, and the knowledge gained from it, that produces genius, and genius ideas.

Equality in intelligence, based on the application of what they know, in their area.

The astrophysicist is not more intelligent than the baker, the motorcycle inventor is not less intelligent, than the architect. Because they've applied their knowledge to a goal, and have shown results.

It doesn't matter what you know, or how much you know, that determines how smart you are, it is how you use it.

Humans are very inventive at their best, but at their worst they are short sighted and do not realize how their actions will affect the future.

You can be dumb, without being stupid.

You could say that creating a spear was "smart"...but it probably was one of the stepping stones that lead to war. However, humans back then probably did not have the insight to see thus far. They were only going out for their survival.

Even war, requires intelligent application of what you know. Every soldier knows this for a fact.

"You can know how to shoot a gun...but if you don't apply that knowledge...you're freakin dead, and no only will you be dead, you'll be a dead idiot, for not applying your knowledge to defend yourself in a combat situation."

I would also add, that most soldiers could be considered 'smarter' than the average college student, even though most soldiers are high school drop outs, or similar.

(US where military service is volunteer)

This is because they learned through experience, how to apply their knowledge, and to do so diligently and with discipline, where as many college students struggle in that regard.

But there are some that are both plain dumb and socially incapable, as well as people that are terribly intelligent and very social also. They are not equal in intelligence. The lack of as you called it 'social IQ' doesn't automatically mean you're good in something else. You can be, of course, but it isn't a given.

For all you know though...that F grade student, who can't even talk to the lowest rung on the social ladder...could be a damn brilliant gardener, or cook, or hobbyist model maker/inventor, or artist. Intelligence, and application is not always a public event. And infact, the majority of the world's intelligence, is hidden in private thought, or use.
 
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El, as Steel said, those "everyone is special in their own way" ads seem to have gotten to you for the worse.

Also, as Steel said, a lot of people are stupid but this thread inappropriately attempts to generalize specific cases.

Also, as for the political debate, Obama got votes for being black and lost votes for being black. Both side just emphasizes the other, and any perceptive person should shut up about it to avoid embarassing themselves. While I'm at it, Obama has pretty much sucked, but there are good indications McCain would have as well (as well as little doubt Palin would have in the likely event of McCain's death), and it's not as if the U.S. has produced their share of brilliant leaders recently.
 
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El, as Steel said, those "everyone is special in their own way" ads seem to have gotten to you for the worse.

If that be the case, then I shall keep this idealistic and supported view, over baseless self superiority.

As for Obama, it isn't the fault of Obama entirely, his administration is being blockaded by a wretched congress, who can't get their heads out of their butt long enough to see that the ship is sinking faster than they want to perceive it.

You cannot blame the President, for what should be laid also on Congress. The President is doing somewhat well atleast, with the tools he has...blunt and partisan as they may be.

He cannot magically wave his hand and say: "Healthcare" and it occur, or "Surplus" and it appear.

Things take TIME when you are trying to rebuild a blasted infrastructure, reform healthcare, give everyone health insurance, deal with a deficit caused by rampaging elephants, and a "War on Terror" that encompasses what is probably 5 fronts. (Afghanistan, Iraq, the borders around Iraq, Pakistan's borders, and maintaining the US border).

All this of course...when you are trying to get a partisan Congress, to agree on atleast 'something'.

He also has a family too, and has to maintain his public image as a US figure head.

Coupled with the stress of being the first African-American president, ON TOP of all the crap load he has to deal with.
 
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Of course he can't. However, he's gone back on a lot of his campaign promises already (not as if anyone remotely skeptical expected him to keep them, but some of you are still treating him like the second coming of christ).

Also, the "War on Terror" encompasses two fronts: Pakistan and Afghanistan. Iraq is a semi-illegal war and you guys need to gtfo, and the US isn't as threatened as you guys pretend,
 
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A lot of people in America don't support the war on terror. Sadly, most people who do agree are in congress...
 
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Also, the "War on Terror" encompasses two fronts: Pakistan and Afghanistan.

...I facepalm at you...

Iraq is a semi-illegal war and you guys need to gtfo,

...thus the "quotes" around "War on Terror"

and the US isn't as threatened as you guys pretend,

...I double facepalm at you...

...thus the "quotes" around "War on Terror"
 
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you can be dumb without being stupid? that makes no sense. it is like saying you be smart without being intelligent. they are the same word. And no, I never did mention "trivia". I was saying that because you are good at a certain field of expertise does not mean you are smart. It means that you can do it better than someone else due to experience or just the plain fact that you are good at it. And I was using silly putty as an example to show that not everything that has come about was because someone was "smart". a lot of things just come about because of luck. trust me...i do not think that I am smarter than a cave man because I can do 2+2=4 or that I drive a car....

Yes, the main problem with the "War on Terror" is Afghanistan and Pakistan. Afghanistan is the "forgotten war" while Pakistan is where the real bad stuff is going to and is taking place. the united states is not as threatened as we think, I agree with purplepoot. while we have the superior technology and people everywhere, a large scale attack that would decimate will not be allowed on america unless an alterior motive was set in place by the people who run the defences of america.
 
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...thus the "quotes" around "War on Terror"
I was clearly referring to the fact that you're propping your failed saviour up with justifications based on things you admit are bullshit and shouldn't be there to need to prop up anyways, and I believe (or at least hope) that you know it however much you want to take the chance to mock me.
 
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I was clearly referring to the fact that you're propping your failed saviour up with justifications based on things you admit are bullshit and shouldn't be there to need to prop up

Excuse me?

First of all, I've NEVER called him my saviour, I voted for Ron Paul!

I AM however defending the fact that it.isn't.entirely.his.damn.fault.

and I believe (or at least hope) that you know it however much you want to take the chance to mock me.

-_-

Here! Let me help you down from your high horse...you might enjoy the scenery if you walked a little on humbler feet.

you can be dumb without being stupid?

Humans are capable of making dumb mistakes, or doing dumb things, but that doesn't make them 'stupid'.

And no, I never did mention "trivia".

What you call intelligent, is 'having alot of trivia floating around in your head' as noted from your support of standardized testing as a measure of how smart someone is.

I was saying that because you are good at a certain field of expertise does not mean you are smart.

It means you are smart in that field...and therefore, have intelligence.

It means that you can do it better than someone else due to experience or just the plain fact that you are good at it.

Just like the astrophycist is good at his job, while the bakerman is good at his job.

And I was using silly putty as an example to show that not everything that has come about was because someone was "smart".

...okay...

trust me...i do not think that I am smarter than a cave man because I can do 2+2=4 or that I drive a car....

Exactly my point.
 
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There are in general things which are more deemed intelligence than others, and changing the definition to suit your purposes will not help your case; for example, the ability to innovate and progress rather than to memorize and repeat is generally valued, hence the appreciation of scientists, mathematicians, engineers, programmers, etc more than bakers, farmers, ditch-diggers, etc.
 
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What you call intelligent, is 'having alot of trivia floating around in your head' as noted from your support of standardized testing as a measure of how smart someone is.
No it's not.
This allows us to reason, plan, to solve problems, think abstractly, use language and learn.
That's roughly what I would call intelligence.

Elenai; said:
For all you know though...that F grade student, who can't even talk to the lowest rung on the social ladder...could be a damn brilliant gardener, or cook, or hobbyist model maker/inventor, or artist. Intelligence, and application is not always a public event. And infact, the majority of the world's intelligence, is hidden in private thought, or use.
Where do you get that idea from? Is there some magical balance in our brains that weighs the amount of skill in one area and compares it to others? People have different brain masses ergo they vary in intelligence.

As I said, would you consider a mouse to be of the same intelligence as we are? Would you consider a guy with a big brain disfunction to be of the same intelligence? And what if he had a small disfunction?
 
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That's a pretty fucking retarded way of thinking. By that logic, I could end practically any argument in the same way. "Everyone has a different opinion and everyone is correct."

No they fucking aren't.

Well, you can kinda do that, since the only thing that's "correct" is that we exist, and some math i guess.
 
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You are just all noobs. You dont have to be stupid to vote stupidly. If thats the case, all the americans are really really stupid.

Smart people can do stupid things. Now get back to topic and talk about politics shit in its own thread.
 
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Judging the whole mankind based on one thread in hiveworkshop.com would be pretty stupid, dont you think?
 
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Alas, some posts went a bit off-topic with the obama thing, but I started speaking about my nation's particular situation, so I can't blame anyone but myself.

I think you're right about the fact that defining "stupid" is important. I myself couldn't give a fitting definition (that's why I didn't vote and I just said the crowd is easy to control). Don't confuse "stupid" with "ignorant"!
Though I wanted to see what you guys mainly thought.

I mainly want to see what people who voted "Yes" think about democracy.
 
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"Stupidity, or dumbness, is the property a person, action or belief instantiates by virtue of having or being indicative of low intelligence or poor learning abilities. Stupidity is distinct from irrationality because stupidity denotes an incapability or unwillingness to properly consider the relevant information. It is frequently used as a pejorative and consequently has a negative connotation. The term has fallen out of favor in medical journals as it is seen as a generic term used to describe a wide variety of conditions."

Seems to define it pretty well imo.
 
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haha, i completely agree with viikuna.

@elenai I never said that intelligence is having a bunch of random facts in your head. and making a mistake is not being stupid. dumb and stupid are a synonym of eachother, so you can not say: oh, im stupid, but not dumb. what I am trying to tell you is exactly what pyritie said: talent/skill does not equal intelligence.
 
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Stupidity is distinct from irrationality because stupidity denotes an incapability or unwillingness to properly consider the relevant information.

Here I should even start a new thread about the difference between stupidity and irrationality, because I just don't get it by that definition, and I'm pretty sure I could argue with it.

At start I wanted to make a thread about the meaning of "stupid", to introduce this one, but that didn't feel like a "Medivh tower" thing.

I hoped I could skip that part and just ask "according to you are people capable of responsable elections?"
Because if the answer is no, well, God save us all!

(By the way I hate to say that I'm starting to doubt about the efficiency of the democratic system)
 
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Here I should even start a new thread about the difference between stupidity and irrationality, because I just don't get it by that definition, and I'm pretty sure I could argue with it.

At start I wanted to make a thread about the meaning of "stupid", to introduce this one, but that didn't feel like a "Medivh tower" thing.

I hoped I could skip that part and just ask "according to you are people capable of responsable elections?"
Because if the answer is no, well, God save us all!

(By the way I hate to say that I'm starting to doubt about the efficiency of the democratic system)

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill
 
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