(8)Endless Cycle

This bundle is marked as useful / simple. Simplicity is bliss, low effort and/or may contain minor bugs.
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First time uploading a Melee map to Hive workshop. I would love to get your opinion of the map and what I should do to make the map more interesting and how to even it out a bit more to make it a better map.

There have been rumors of Golems and Monsters who lurk in these woods. Keep and eye out and maybe you'll see some.



Change Log (01-22-2019):
Removed Dragon Roost, Replaced with 2 Fountains.
Fixed Creep Levels
Added more creeps
Made more room for players
Added 4 new gold mines facing the Center
Added 2 gateways connecting to each other across from the 2 Fountains
Added small puddles
Added critters
Added gold mines behind bases
set gold mine creeps to Normal instead of Camp.
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Contents

(8)Endless Cycle (Map)

Reviews
twojstaryjakcie
I appreciate the effort, especially since this is your first time making a Melee map, but the fact of the matter is that it has numerous design flaws connected directly to you probably being new to Melee in general. The map is extremely squarish in...
WolfFarkas
I recently did a Lordaeron map, and I have to say that I hate that tile set, 1) Your map has no tile-mixing, with Lordaeron Summer try to do this, It looks much better ingame, it helps players to know the paths to go, and also helps in the minimap...
mafe
Alright, were are we here? Since twojstaryjakcie is apparently no longer active, I guess it's my job to moderate this map now. You've already heard that regarding terrain, the map really is very basic. I can live with that if the map is of good...
mafe
No update or response in more than 3 months. Therefore set to substandard.
Level 8
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Messages
112
I appreciate the effort, especially since this is your first time making a Melee map, but the fact of the matter is that it has numerous design flaws connected directly to you probably being new to Melee in general.

The map is extremely squarish in terms of design. Although aesthetics are not a key point when a Melee map is concerned, this particular tree alignment is - when trees are placed via square brush, they allow Wisps to slip into the corners of the treeline, rendering them immune to Melee attacks. This obviously gives Night Elves a serious edge over other races (especially Orcs since they usually start with a Blademaster and Grunts which are melee) as their scouting workers are much harder to kill. I would recommend changing the alignment of trees using the circle brush although it will obviously require a lot of work.
upload_2019-1-21_12-25-14.png


The item drops are all over the place - a level 24 expansion camp grants a level 3 Permanent item, while a level 18 Mana Fountain camp drops a level 6 item. You need to focus more on adjusting the item's level to the creep camp's level. There's a neat chart showing how to do that in this guide: Competitive Melee Map

In most cases, the creeps at expansions should have their acquisition range set to 500. This is necessary mainly because of the fact that it prevents players from building towers near the camp and then clearing it without any effort while having their expansion defenses already set up at the same time. Change the acquisition range to 500 and move the treeline back a bit if it interferes with the map's pathing (if the creeps start attacking units passing by).

There is no terrain variation save for the giant hill in the middle. This hurts the game both in terms of its aesthetics and gameplay value as not only does it make the map look boring, but it also doesn't let players make too many tactical decisions which therefore makes the skirmish boring as well. Try experimenting with adding high ground in some locations (some of the expansions, for example), maybe elevate the ground near Goblin Merchants, Marketplaces, and so on.

There is very little terrain variation, only grass and some dirt here and there - try experimenting with the tileset, add some beaten paths, maybe make a few water puddles (it is raining in your map, is it not?)

The expansions blocked behind trees are so small that it's not even possible to set up expansion there. Obviously, it'd be nice if you made the expansion a little bit bigger.
upload_2019-1-21_11-23-51.png

For now, the map requires quite a lot of improvement, but in time it might make for a decent Melee experience.

As you are probably new to Melee mapping, I recommend taking a look at these guides as well:
How to create Melee Maps
Description Guide - Melee Maps
Melee mapping - The reasons behind common aspects of competitive 1v1 maps
 
Level 8
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
100
I appreciate the effort, especially since this is your first time making a Melee map, but the fact of the matter is that it has numerous design flaws connected directly to you probably being new to Melee in general.

The map is extremely squarish in terms of design. Although aesthetics are not a key point when a Melee map is concerned, this particular tree alignment is - when trees are placed via square brush, they allow Wisps to slip into the corners of the treeline, rendering them immune to Melee attacks. This obviously gives Night Elves a serious edge over other races (especially Orcs since they usually start with a Blademaster and Grunts which are melee) as their scouting workers are much harder to kill. I would recommend changing the alignment of trees using the circle brush although it will obviously require a lot of work.
View attachment 314292


The item drops are all over the place - a level 24 expansion camp grants a level 3 Permanent item, while a level 18 Mana Fountain camp drops a level 6 item. You need to focus more on adjusting the item's level to the creep camp's level. There's a neat chart showing how to do that in this guide: Competitive Melee Map

In most cases, the creeps at expansions should have their acquisition range set to 500. This is necessary mainly because of the fact that it prevents players from building towers near the camp and then clearing it without any effort while having their expansion defenses already set up at the same time. Change the acquisition range to 500 and move the treeline back a bit if it interferes with the map's pathing (if the creeps start attacking units passing by).

There is no terrain variation save for the giant hill in the middle. This hurts the game both in terms of its aesthetics and gameplay value as not only does it make the map look boring, but it also doesn't let players make too many tactical decisions which therefore makes the skirmish boring as well. Try experimenting with adding high ground in some locations (some of the expansions, for example), maybe elevate the ground near Goblin Merchants, Marketplaces, and so on.

There is very little terrain variation, only grass and some dirt here and there - try experimenting with the tileset, add some beaten paths, maybe make a few water puddles (it is raining in your map, is it not?)

The expansions blocked behind trees are so small that it's not even possible to set up expansion there. Obviously, it'd be nice if you made the expansion a little bit bigger.
View attachment 314291

For now, the map requires quite a lot of improvement, but in time it might make for a decent Melee experience.

As you are probably new to Melee mapping, I recommend taking a look at these guides as well:
How to create Melee Maps
Description Guide - Melee Maps
Melee mapping - The reasons behind common aspects of competitive 1v1 maps
I appreciate your feedback. I'm going to work on puddles, work on the sides a bit, and fix the items. Ima check out Blizzard maps while doing so and get some inspiration for (Maybe) adding in a Goldmine in the corners.
 
Level 26
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,553
I recently did a Lordaeron map, and I have to say that I hate that tile set,

1) Your map has no tile-mixing, with Lordaeron Summer try to do this,
upload_2019-3-31_22-58-26.png


It looks much better ingame, it helps players to know the paths to go, and also helps in the minimap,
when tile mixing, no need to do it in all map, you can copy paste the terrain.

2) Base shape, is narrow, try to imitate Blizzards base shape wich could be the common U shape or a base with 2 entrance, or 3 but with a wide area to build
WC3 is very strict with base shape not like Age of empires.
3) Expanding shape, the U shape is clever, but it should be more wide.
4) Trees are square and rectagular as 2starjackcie posted, it still the same.
5) way gates paths too small.
6) there should not be creeps near taverns.
7) the center of the map is very important, because allows users to go from 1 corner of the map to the other, but if there are creeps blocking players have to do lage walking rounds to avoid that, also in melee there is a rule called 1 click (no micro manage)
If I have to go from A to B, I should do it in 1 click with no need of make my army manouver micromanaging to avoid creeps in the paths.
so if from A to B there are creeps users will be attacked,
8) paths are narrow, in 8-12 player melee maps, have like 4 armies in the same fight, if paths are narrow, is hard to do, I have the rule of 8 editor pixel wide to make a path wide, even sometimes 8 is few.

First time uploading a Melee map

If this is your first time doing a melee map is better to start with something more easy to gain experience (like a 1v1 or 2v2 or 4 FFA, than jump to the void with a 12 player map)
because the problems in a 1v1 are easy to spot and easy to fix but in a 12 , all problems are x12, to do a good 12 player map
you need to know how the map is played, how each player/race play, try to see a lot of others maps, read tutorials, read reviews so you can imitate what they do.

Dont feel discouraged, I did a 6 FFA and a 4v4 maps, both have serious problems in balance to be played seriously.

From my 23 melee maps, I can say only 3 are good, the rest are bad balanced. (Again try to see others maps, that helps a lot)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Level 8
Joined
Jun 2, 2015
Messages
100
I recently did a Lordaeron map, and I have to say that I hate that tile set,

1) Your map has no tile-mixing, with Lordaeron Summer try to do this,
View attachment 319770

It looks much better ingame, it helps players to know the paths to go, and also helps in the minimap,
when tile mixing, no need to do it in all map, you can copy paste the terrain.

2) Base shape, is narrow, try to imitate Blizzards base shape wich could be the common U shape or a base with 2 entrance, or 3 but with a wide area to build
WC3 is very strict with base shape not like Age of empires.
3) Expanding shape, the U shape is clever, but it should be more wide.
4) Trees are square and rectagular as 2starjackcie posted, it still the same.
5) way gates paths too small.
6) there should not be creeps near taverns.
7) the center of the map is very important, because allows users to go from 1 corner of the map to the other, but if there are creeps blocking players have to do lage walking rounds to avoid that, also in melee there is a rule called 1 click (no micro manage)
If I have to go from A to B, I should do it in 1 click with no need of make my army manouver micromanaging to avoid creeps in the paths.
so if from A to B there are creeps users will be attacked,
8) paths are narrow, in 8-12 player melee maps, have like 4 armies in the same fight, if paths are narrow, is hard to do, I have the rule of 8 editor pixel wide to make a path wide, even sometimes 8 is few.

First time uploading a Melee map

If this is your first time doing a melee map is better to start with something more easy to gain experience (like a 1v1 or 2v2 or 4 FFA, than jump to the void with a 12 player map)
because the problems in a 1v1 are easy to spot and easy to fix but in a 12 , all problems are x12, to do a good 12 player map you need to know how the map is played, how each player/race play, try to see a lot of others maps, read tutorials, read reviews so you can imitate what they do.

Dont feel discouraged, I did a 6 FFA and a 4v4 maps, both have serious problems in balance to be played seriously.

From 23 melee maps, I can say only 3 are good, the rest are bad balanced. (Again try to see others maps, that helps a lot)

Gotta say, love the feedback, but my map is a 4v4. I'm not much of a terrainer and it annoys me sometimes, I mainly make Custom maps aside melee. I just thought "I'd love to give a shot at making a melee map." Everything was balanced I thought. then I saw that there were a few uneven edges so I pretty much got upset at how it became uneven. It was started off with perfect even shapes on all their sides. Really upsets me on how it did that. But thanks anyways! :)
 

mafe

Map Reviewer
Level 20
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
733
Alright, were are we here? Since twojstaryjakcie is apparently no longer active, I guess it's my job to moderate this map now.

You've already heard that regarding terrain, the map really is very basic. I can live with that if the map is of good quality with respect to gameplay. But still, I have a few question:
-If a map is made to played for 4v4, why are most parts of the map so narrow that moving your armies around as a team will be impossible? Where are the big 4v4 team fights supposed to take place?
-Why are some item classes not specified? Is this intentional or an oversight?
-Creeps near waygates are very likely to interact weirdly with the gate.

Some of the things mentioned in the reviews above also still exists. I respect anyone who tries to make a large map, as this take a lot of effort. But I don't think the map is quite good enough to be approved yet. So for now, it goes to Awaiting update, but if you have some good explanations as to why you think all of this is fine, we can talk about it.
 
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