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MasterHaosis
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    You can still be smart and be a slave, like Kel'Thuzad, Arthas, and all demons. They serve their masters but at least can think.
    ----------
    yeah, exactly. They are startegist as well.
    but are completely turned.
    Kael for example just go corrupted slightly or so. Same with Illidan. But they still have their own will except they serve Kil Jaden, but with their will (Illidan even tried to trick Kil Jaden). Unlike Arthas who blindly follows anything, and went deep, soo deep.


    ----------
    The mass demons are just like ghouls, can't think. Infernals and the like. But yes they are more powerful and alive.
    ----------
    Ghoul is completely undead, it is revived dead corpse without much brain.
    All demons have more brain than Ghoul. Same with Abomination, multiple corpses into one. Necromancer for example, as well banshee are intelligent somehow since they are just corrupted and cursed.
    They cast complex abilities such as Cripple and possesion.
    So most of deons are blindly followers, but not revived dead bodies as Undeads mostly.


    ----------
    I am not sure succubus are very smart, they are just dumb bitches. Doom guards and infernals are stupid, fel beasts too, so, mass is stupid so far.
    ----------
    No, sucubbuses can manipulate others, those are not dumb. If she can mind control you, how then she is stupid? What are you or me then?
    Also, Doom Guards are generals mostly or captains in demonic armies. Remember that doom guard is only unit with multiple abilities. he has cripple, war stomp, dispel magic, resistant skin and rain of fire and can shoot into air.
    Plus Level 8.Only highly intelligent creature is capable of learning so many abilities, and complex ones such as cripple. (Nercomancers, Warlocks... they all have this ability but studied magics). Remember that doom guards are bosses also i nseveral missions. And sucubbuses as well. No boss is dumb. Even Ogre.
    Infernals yes, though Level 8, they are corrupted soul implanted into demonic rocks, so yeah he has limited intelligence, much as undead.

    ----------
    Meh they were like satyrs, corrupted NEs. Or something of that sort - just corrupted of any race, we also had corrupted Furbolgs, can't pay attention to all of them. Besides, corrupted NEs are brainless, they have no heroes who can think, so no story.
    ----------
    Also skeletons... One base created satyrs and corrupted treants, you forgot that. Yeah skeletons and treants are limited by intelligence.
    But Satyrs are intelligent, depends of type. You have Satyr Level 9 who can animate dead, Satyr level 5 has Unholy Aura, mana burn, raise dead, Satyr level 3 has shadowmeld so he can ambush and curse... So actually according to type of their magics they are not that dumb.
    Yo usee there is not jsut black and white, but grey too.
    There is low intelligence, decent, better intelligence and high intelligence.
    Low intelligences are units such as revived undead units (skeletons, ghouls, Abominations, Flesh Golems), summoned units mostly, constructs such as Rock golems and Infernals, lesser Voids, animals such as giant spiders, wolves, Fel beasts etc etc... And exception is Ogres. They are very dumb.
    Decent intelligence comes with any alive units, such as humans, orcs (although they also proved to be dumb, but less than Ogres), demonic foot troopers (Fel Guards, Low sucubbuses and decent voids and such), High/Blood elf troops, Ogre magis, Lords, Satyrs, draeneis etc etc..
    Better intelligence usually have spellcasters, night elves (even troops but they can ambush), satyrs level 9, dranei mages, demons from level 4/5 up to level 6/7, Ogre Lord level 11.
    Higher intelligence usually have heroes and creeps from Level 8 and above.
    And yeah, complicate units such as spell breakers with multiple abilities.
    1. Alright.
    2. You can still be smart and be a slave, like Kel'Thuzad, Arthas, and all demons. They serve their masters but at least can think.
    3. The mass demons are just like ghouls, can't think. Infernals and the like. But yes they are more powerful and alive.
    4. I am not sure succubus are very smart, they are just dumb bitches. Doom guards and infernals are stupid, fel beasts too, so, mass is stupid so far.
    5. No longer controlled, but yes created.
    6. Meh they were like satyrs, corrupted NEs. Or something of that sort - just corrupted of any race, we also had corrupted Furbolgs, can't pay attention to all of them. Besides, corrupted NEs are brainless, they have no heroes who can think, so no story.
    7. -
    8. Well I don't blame them since it wasn't a fail death, it was an epic part of the story. If he was killed off by a total noob and for no reason then I would be mad. But yea you have studied more demons.
    9. Same.
    10. Uhuh.
    11. Nope, it would take them too much time, as if they are writing 2 stories for the time of 1, as I said earlier.
    12. Alright, I agree here.
    13. Is that sarcasm :cgrin:? You know better story than Blizzard too - Blood Elf flags and so on.
    14. Well it did get explaind later on, but it was weird at first I agree.
    15. He did study it. He studied Mage class and later on founded himself the Blood Mage class. Rexxar founded the Beastmaster class himself. Studied it himself. You don't always need a teacher. Where does the first teacher come from?
    16. Perhaps.
    17. Not really, it doesn't go completely against what they are, they were kinda douche assholes. They preferred not to get their hands dirty but when they have no choice..
    18. Well we aren't sure about that, if they somehow master it? It is like eating bad food, you don't become bad yourself if you can handle it (vultures).
    19. Well take for example Rexxar's abilities - he summons bears and pigs. In reality he just calls them, it just is like a spell in the game. He isn't a spellcaster though.
    20. They were kinda gay.. so we never know. Probably fashion came first :cgrin:
    21. True.
    22. True.
    23. No that's different, they didn't break some rule there.. A rule is for example this: in art when you want contrast or something it's good to use red vs green in a painting. If you choose to use similar colors you can still make them contrasty with red and purple somehow. See? A broken rule, but broken well. Not like WoW. So blood elves changing clothes was a well broken rule, just not on time. It had to have been a bit later, when they joined Illidan.
    24. -
    25. -
    26. Yep.
    18. Uh.. but I really wish we could at least try a different theme than cycle on this one like forever :x
    19. No man you don't get how it works. You can't write everything cuz that would mean having to write 2 stories for the time of 1. They did get it clear they wanna use Ner'Zhul, have Arthas become the lich king and so on. But not ALL the details. Example: I am to draw 1 painting for a day. And the next day another. I can have an unclear idea of what the next one will be but I cannot draw it today right? I might decide to change stuff, cut stuff. So it's only an idea, very raw. If it was to be finished that would mean just drawing both paintings on the first day. Which cannot be done. Just cannot. Try it. (I mean, of course it can, for paintings but for stories that take much longer, no). And it did have logical consequences - Ner'Zhul, Arthas, Illidan, and so on. Actually the idea of the blood elves was pretty cool. They now live as outcasts, have nowhere to go, no magic to drain so they gotta turn to darker methods or find a leader to lead them out of it - they chose to join Illidan who promised them that power (and he actually could do it in WoW so they chose right (however due to Blizzard wanting to turn him evil, he did not. It would have cost him nothing but he just lost some allies so that they could get 2 boss fights)). It wasn't the most original I don't know, but very cool. With the mana source needed and all. It is just the first remains man, chill. Not like the 1000th.
    20. So what if he came from his own? Are there certain rules for classes? Rexxar came from his own - he just beast mastered. Is he banned too? He doesn't actually have different spells yet, he just starts to form them. He is an apprentice Blood Mage, the first one. He couldn't have "studied it". So was the first Paladin, DK and so on. It is symbolical, they call themselves blood elves since they gotta use darker methods (blood and such) to sustain themselves. It's logical. They are no longer "high". They still look kinda like High Elves but chose the color red to be their main. Not a huge difference. They didn't turn undead or anything, didn't have all their culture made different. Just slight changes. Uh, and come on, it's an RTS. Probably it took them months to change clothes not a few days as we see in game. Don't rely on the game factor i told ya. And yea perhaps they shouldn't have changed appearance storywise, but think of it artwise - it's much cooler and different. So fuck the rules, they are there to be broken. It's a game, more art is always better.
    21. Well the transformation was something similar. After they ran away from Garithos I think they become BEs, cant recall really. Was it from the first mission? Then yea, they could have kept the High Elves a bit more I agree.
    22. It's not an easter egg, that's the worst part. It's real.
    23. Yes all of these you mentioned are afraid of facing the enemy 1v1 so they choose sneakier methods. Not saying it's wrong (with judge vs criminal for example) but it is the truth. I am a coward myself, I would probably fight like Kil'Jaeden if I had to so it's not a big deal. Just stating it as cowardice in bad guys always seems.. lesser. I don't know. As if they seem even more bastardly when they fight from behind (since the good guys don't backstab actually). But not only did they not have place for him to fight, I also think it's better since that makes him the different kind of bad guy - the backstabby plotting one. Nothing wrong with that, I just stated it.
    2x. Yea.
    xx. What I said yea.
    xz. I see nothing wrong with that, only the fact that they failed it. And they shouldn't have.
    1. Oh not rapid fire.. I thought we were ending.
    2. Yea.
    3. Yes but my points stands. 8 vs 10 is not very far from 2 vs 10. It's still disbalanced, so following your logic it should all be 10 10 10
    4. Yea but the mass of undeads are not. That's what I said actually "Unlike Kel'Thuzad and Arthas" (leaders) the rest like ghouls are dumb minions. Oo demons? I didn't read demons I read undead xD heh. Yea same goes for demons though. Mass is stupid. (Same for Hitler btw, mass that followed him was dumb assholes)
    5. No they are the factor that caused it all, they are the hidden bad guy but in the game the real bad guys were the Undead. In the second part at least (where you complain about lack of demon missions since in RoC we got enough) It's only logical to have less demons in TFT after we had many in RoC. Even cinematics of demons!
    6. They are the same actually. Dumb mass, smart leaders.
    7. -
    8. "This is just the beginning" (Count Dooku voice) Demonlogist you are, yes you are. But Illidanologist you are not :cgrin: hehhe
    9. We knew what? That he would lose? We didn't before it happened..
    10. Yea it was a bad part on their side perhaps but they aimed higher than they could reach. Nothing wrong with that. People with ambitions. An ambitious amazing project with soul. I loved that. So I do not ask for more. I will, on their next game when they will have more money (but I got less then).
    11. I *will be back (sounds even more cliche and cool)
    12. Pretty good?! Pretty good?! AMAZING :cgrin: Find me better ones! If you can't then these get a 10/10. Or at least 9/10 (cuz there probably are better by now I dunno relly, haven't played all the games in the world). Until better ones come around, TEN!
    13. Play Mass Effect. JUST DO IT OK?! (from 1, not like many people from the third and then they say its crap when they dont know shit)
    14. Yea I guess but Sylvanas wasn't important until World of Warcraft when she truly founded her Undead army bitches. She was just a bitchy small enemy for Arthas like the Paladins he faced until then. And she reappeared a few times. I wish they had extended her character and made her undeads good or something, cuz she would keep her good (if she was good) soul and be like, good guys in bad guys form, not wanted by anyone. Would have been cool. Instead she just turned evil. Generic bitch.
    15. Well I don't know. I think we can say he was hiding in castle, if he has still disappeared.
    16. There are a few options: plothole, he just failed to do it, he just didn't care whether he'd do it or not or other. I choose 2/3 just not 1. When you have a chance to explain a tiny plothole for a product you like, I say go for it. Here we are offered that chance. It could have been a plothole or not. It's not really cleared out. Not as obvious as what a true plothole would be.
    17. Yea but they can obvioulsy willingly leave not "holes" (a hole is a contradiction to something, Arthas not killing them is "unexplained" not hole. Get that clear) but "unexplained" stuff. An example? Have you watched V for Vendetta? We never got to see the main character's face since he hid behind a mask the whole movie. Why did they do it? To make him faceless. To gives us the feel he is faceless. That he lives in all of us. It was a very good artistic choice, not a plothole, but an unexplained something.
    Actually demons can still kill you for no reason, drug dealers only sell drugs and whoever wants to buy them buys it. I mean.. there is no forcing here. (well there is in some cases actually)

    Perhaps they wanted to extend Arthas' story later on. He got to beat everyone by consuming the dark powers and turning evil but his time of justice will come some time too, like Darth Vader - he was pretty op as Anakin and beat every jedi but in the end he lived a sad life as Darth Vader doing nothing all day and having no one to share with.. and also died in the end.. Uh. Perhaps Arthas was supposed to be extended like something like that. Differently of course.
    16. Very well.
    17. So it would have been a 7/10 if there were no cinematics?
    18. Oh come on, don't catch for words :cgrin:
    19. Well don't fully believe me since people do say it's good. I just didn't enjoy it much.
    20. Hmm.. Well, I could argue but those games are great too so I see your point. But also, they got no cinematics so Warcraft 3 should win :p You said cinematics give bonus points (I mean the rest got them too but crappier).
    21. Yea but I already told you that those 10 seconds could have actually been added, just you don't notice it since you want more (like anybody else, I won't judge you).
    22. How is it unneeded? Mannoroth and Grom die in it! It's just as important as the rest. Imagine that cinematic ingame. Grom's model just dying and you be like "well this wasn't very epic". Or "well he could respawn since I already respawned him a few times". It was very needed.
    23. Yea but the mere fact that "they did not explain some stuff" means that they did not write it. So if they had written he went on a sunny beach with a cocktail it would have happened. However, if they had said he disappeared for 5 days he could have gone to a sunny beach with a cocktail, he could have went to kill kobols, who knows?! If they haven't told us, we can only guess before we get an answer. And here is what we did, we guessed he killed all the elves since it seemed logical as he had said so but he didn't as we later got to see. Character is different than writer, he can claim anything he wants. And I see it pretty fitting for Arthas to claim he will murder all but not do it as he did not murder everyone in Lordaeron either. He is that kind of a guy, just saying bad guy stuff.. I don't know how to explain it anymore really. Lets just close this theme and go on to discuss (and hopefully finish) the rest that are left. I think we can also close Mannoroth cinematic theme.
    24. Well they had not planned Kael'Thas yet, so how could they know they should have added some mentioning about it? Sometimes a writer writes a good story and leaves holes for a potential next story, sometimes he doesn't. And in that case, they made it 50/50 they had Arthas become the Lich King so they kinda had a general main story that could go on later but also couldn't mention all the tiny details that could possibly be put in the next part (had a next part been done). They also had the potential story for Illidan left out after RoC but they couldn't plan out everything, that would mean having it written already! So they couldn't mention Maiev yet.
    25. No, because high elf mages were a lot and he was like a high elf mage who changed his class into blood mage. So basically he is a new class that was born. Like Paladin --> Death Knight. It is the same. It fits perfectly, a lot better than another Ranger I think. But that is probably subjective.
    26. No. You can basically play something like pokemon with pets or something and they are fucking ugly as shit. When I heard about it, I asked the same thing actually. "Easter egg or what?".
    27. I think they could be at the same power, just different kinds of power as you said. Yea he is a trickster and a manipulator but he is also kinda cowardish since he won't do it himself. Not saying he isn't good at what he does, but lets face it, he is kind of a coward. Archimonde was like the Warrior class, ready to jump in fight unlike his bro who didn't even enter it.
    1. Alright.
    2. A misunderstanding again it seems :cgrin:
    3. Yea well they are the Outland bad guys, they only get a few missions. And no, you cannot play as them in any missions, that would be weird. Undeads we got to play with since the main characters used to be humans and they aren't completely mindless.
    4. Yea would have been cool to have him, but he didn't exist until then...
    5. Yep. Still more. Still, a lot of people could ask for more missions from Blood Elves, Garithos humans, Corrupted Night Elves, Furbolgs or whatever. So some races have to be ignored, not all can be done.. I am sorry it was your race but... well... yea.
    6. Yea but how you know what is "enough"? The undead missions are more than Night elves, what if someone wanted to equal that (if 10 undead, 9 NE atm, he wants 1 more NE). And blood elves didn't get THAT many like Undead. There must be disbalance Haosis, the story is not about demons, it is far from them. They are far from it actually! I am not trying to say I wouldn't have enjoyed more missions (of anything actually) but they made it like that for a reason I'm guessing. Well your request isn't too much but if your request is fulfilled a lot of other tiny requests will have to be fulfilled since they "aren't too much" and they just got a ton of work on their hands. Those 2 more missions would have to have been thought out as well, maps made, quests, triggers.. not saying it's a lot but add more missions from Corrupted Night elves and the like and they just became a lot. Still, I get ya. But also take into account that you should not be able to play as demons as they are mindless and evil. Undeads as I mentioned are not all like that. We didn't play as Mal'Ganis or Ner'Zhul right? Just Arthas and Kel'Thuzad, both who were humans. Also, I for one would have liked a bit more Night Elf characters since they are only 2 - Malfurion and Tyrande (Illidan is a Naga character, he doesn't quite count). I said that you can have those missions in an expansion for which we would have to pay according money for the extra work. It would be fair. If of course, the expansion was worth it.
    7. So that happened with Warcraft 3. They did a marvelous job, got good pay.. I wouldn't call it neither money grabbing neither unfinished product.
    8. Alright, they patched a lot of stuff actually but mainly gameplaywise. Maybe what you request wasn't requested by anyone back then or not by enough people so that's why it wasn't patched.
    9. When is it going to over :cgrin:? Can you assure me it will ever end? "Will this ever end?" "Let this torment eend!"
    10. Perhaps. I was referring to Witcher 3. I do have some things I do not like bit I am only a bit disappointed, so the product is still great. It's awesome.
    11. Oh, yea yea I get ya now (although they obviously aren't professional now).
    12. And you did too! I actually got a lot of interesting data from this talk, those tiny gameplay to story details I hadn't really cared much about. Maybe in the next game I make I'll try to think of them. Because I hope to make games. Good ones.
    Regarding your missions, perhaps perhaps. I've got nothing more to say on that subject actually, regarding the demons. You know my point of view, I know yours, we both wanted more missions I just think they had some limits. If it was due to laziness then you are correct. Then they failed here.
    13. Walls? No man I was talking as an example with your roofless house example :cgrin: there are no walls in the cinematic. There was no Arthas pushing thing I already gave you several reasons as to why Illidan lost.. but oh well :/
    14. Yea well, it's a story about Arthas. Besides, I am not mad that Illidan died, he still delivered his epic story and was a good character. I am kinda sad.. and actually a bit mad but, come on. I can see the story is still good no matter if Arthas was the main character. So Frodo took a lot of scenes in Lord of the Rings and he was lame and an ass.. but I can see the story is about him so he has to have that.
    15. How was it unneeded? Illidan went there to fight him, he didn't know he would lose. What I said you can't ask for is to have it cinematic animated since obviously they didn't have the time (or money we don't know). They did their best to fulfill this and make it, but couldn't.

    x. Actually I gotta go now, will finish writing the answers later.
    Happy to see you too mi amico. I'm also on holidays aha. The novelty of waking up at one in the afternoon and doing nothing all day is rapidly wearing off.
    Oooo lepo, lepo buraz! Drago mi je da cujem... :)
    Da, vreme je jebeni uzas, covek se istusira i onda ima 20 minuta nakon sto izadje iz kade da razmislja zasto se tusirao uopste, s obzirom da je vec gola voda. Palim klimu ono, osecam da ce da eskplodira vise koliko radi... Pakao jebeni... :O
    "Yes but writers cannot let character says that because it will confuse everyone. They need carefully to pay attention on what they are writing."

    yes they can and they often do.

    Arthas didn't really lie he just claims he will do something and he does it but he overexaggerates his deeds due to egoism and so on. He claims he will destroy every single high elf but he obviously didn't. So he still did what he said, destroy the kingdom but not every elf.

    No, just new characters man, come on. They just weren't mensioned, not sleeping, because they weren't important back then. Would you have them rather not make new characters at all? Like never ever again?
    But of course it's artificial, new class expands the world. If they had talked more about a certain location in Azeroth which hadn't been mentioned would you say it's artificial (using the word as something bad)? New characters, new classes, why not add them? They fit perfectly into the world, it's not like they added pokemon (They actually did add pokemon in Cataclysm WoW. Imagine how fail that is).
    It wasn't such a great army, the hiding ones. Think of it ingame, it was really a few numbers.
    Ok true, Arthas wasn't stopped he just failed his quest or didn't care about it THAT much to go hunting every goddamn elf. Or if we try to think of it as war time and so on, Hitler did too claim he will erradicate all the jews but it tooks him so many years and he still couldn't erradicate them all. It is something similar, but lets add in the fact that Arthas vs Blood Elves wasn't like Hitler vs Jews because Arthas wasn't that mad and not that focused on that mission, he had other stuff to do which he cared about far more.
    x. Yea but often writers try to make the cahracter look like he has free will and that is awesome.
    x. I wouldn't say plothole, just KJ being an ass who doesn't want to burn his own ass like his bro Chimonde did and won't risk it. He was always a trickster and a coward.
    x. Exactly.. We both can be right and wrong. How so if there is only one true?
    it is because holes in storline. - something unexplained isn't a hole. A hole is a contradiction with the plot. They never told us if in the Warcraft 3 universe oranges exist. Is that a plothole too? No, just something unclarified. So it's not a hole. But you do have the choice to pick one out of the three and I see no reason why you pick the worst possible, which ruins your experience from the product.
    x. Yea but Illidan is irrelevant as to whether you want the demons to invade or not. You can still pick.
    x. He is marked as evil, but he was marked as evil by everyone except his guys...
    x. Heheh, that part was an epic finale of the story. If they didn't actually intend to make WoW (because they didn't). So that part wasn't decent, it was the best possible way to end the stories going on in the game. True, it would have been better if they hadn't ended but they needed to end since the game was about to end. And don't tell me that they could have elongated it, no. They could have made 1 more expansion though, that would have been a better choice.
    x. Yea your fucking demons :cgrin: they only come to fuck up the Warcraft 3 universe hehhe
    x. So you finally agree :cgrin: Aha! So you did choose the better option. You were to either choose "a character with potential" or "an evil ass betrayer". At first you had chosen the second one, now I'm starting to think you're inclined to the first one, no? That's cool.
    x. But.. blindly obeying masters is worse than fighting yourselves xD but I get ya, they look cool and all. Very bad ass. I like them too just not the most since I think Naga look cooler but I also hate nagas since they are assholes, Highborne.
    x.
    x. So if WC3 rocks why is it not max points? Same way you could give it a 7/10 because a possible 10/10 game could still come out. Or 6/10 and say that SC2 is a 1/10 because a possible 10/10 is still waiting to come out, a game which would be Warcraft3Rate + 4 better, thus making War3 be at 6. Is it not the best RPG-RTS ever made? If it is, then put a 10 there please :cgrin:
    x. Well obviously the Illidan Arthas cinematic didn't require a small amount of money. They couldn't do it. Also, I am not sure if it could have been better in those 10 seconds. You could still say "well yea but it could have been longer, why didn't they add 10 more seconds". How do you know they didn't put more money into it? Also, the fact that we just have cinematics means they put extra money into something in which they didn't have too. They could have kept them as ingame cinematics. They already poured enough money, is what I'm trying to say! How do you know there aren't those 10 extra seconds in some cinematic and we just don't know that they added them like that? And we can still ask for 10 more. We are being greedy here, I think. We want to get more from a product by paying less for it, since if they had added those 10 sec they wouldn't have increased the cost of the game, right?
    Also, very well you are right you are right. No more talking. Your response will be the last one but please don't make it quotish and so on so that I don't have to reply to each of your sayings.. uhm. Yea. Last one, last one. My next post will be a few more sentences I guess. I hope actually :cgrin:
    x. So you mean to tell me they were small local thief back then? I wouldn't even put them in the thief category is what I'm trying to say... You see, they make a product and expect money from it, why .. why call somebody who just earns more from what he does a thief? If he still does good work but earns more that just makes him a bit luckier or a good manager who knows how to spend his resources and how to grab the public.. which is the case with Blizzard during Warcraft 3.
    x. Well isn't that why we argue? We try to convince the other person in our rightfulness (is there such a word?). When you say something is good and I say it's awesome I will of course try to convince you it is awesome and disagree with you. Partially that is. I mean, if you say it's full out bad then I would be 100% against you but now I am only like 10% against you. If you say something is awesome and I say it's good, the same analogy applies. Now, while I see my chances of convincing you are one in a million I still gotta try. And yes, I do not accept your ratings regarding cinematics, but I do see your point and see why they are correct from your point of view. As I said you judge a product only by it's technical side, I add in the human factor which helps to explain to myself why something failed. If it was a reasonable failure I am willing to forgive the product.
    x. Mhm.
    x. Well you see, what if you thought you had all the money for the house but it turned out you didn't? Also, I wouldn't say they made a roofless cinematic, it just has tiny mistakes like, say, the walls are yellow at some parts. Doesn't mean it can't be great.. it is still not failed for me. While you think of it as a failed house I think of this cinematic as a success.
    x. Yes you can? You can try. Warcraft 3 creators tried making something at a professional level, and they were professionals, and they succeeded. What you want from them is to become ultra pros. They were on their way. You know, if they had not tried, we would not have Warcraft 3. Imagine that. So, do you think they should have tried?
    x. Ok ok I get your point. But from what I was gathering from what you were saying it seemed to me as if you would give Warcraft 3 a 9/10 rating rather than 10/10 just because of those little mistakes. So give me a game you would rate a 10/10 without those little mistakes. Get what I'm saying? There always are such little mistakes, it is the human factor I was talking about. I think they could have expanded on Sylvanas more rather than make her a simple bitch but.. doesn't mean it's a mistake. Just a choice different than mine. You say not having the blood elves go a darker path was a mistake but was it really? It was just something that doesn't appeal to you. So the mistakes are actually even less - Mannoroth Fight and too rushed demon missions.
    x. Oh so it's an 8/10? Oh man. But, as I told you they couldn't have "just made more cinematics". It cannot be done ok? It cannot. It would cost them too much money, they already made so many cinematics. If the cinematics were overall 20 min shorter you would say the same thing and if they made them 20 min longer (as they are now) would you be satisfied? Because it would be the same. I am trying to say that they already made enough cinematics. A good reason we didn't get to see more is for example the fact that they just didn't have time to finish one, with Arthas vs Illidan. So you just have no right to ask for more when the best possible was already done. So it's a 9/10 as I see it now. Now let me convince you to make it a 10/10. If you give Warcraft 3 a 9/10 what game would you give a 10/10? If there is no similar game in the RTS genre to have a 10/10 than that means that Warcraft 3 gets the first position which means it's a 10/10. If a new game comes out and is better Warcraft 3 will fall down in the list and be a 9 or something. Or 9.7, whatever. But if it was at 9/10 and the new game was supposed to be like 11/10 how would you rate it? The only way possible would be to push Warcraft 3 down and give the new game a 10/10. 10 is the best game of that genre currently. Not the best possible game, since we do not know what the best possible game could be, as we haven't seen it yet. We can try to guess but that wouldn't be accurate.
    Also, I wanted to mention that - if they had not made any cinematics at all, wouldn't they get 9/10 immediately since you won't have any cinematics to judge at all?
    1. Alright.
    2. Well yea but you still ask for more and say "what could have been done", well it couldn't have. Cuz that would be adding more content for no pay added, it would be wasting their work you know.. It couldn't have been done back then. So don't ask that it was.
    What do you mean you don't like the Warcraft universe (I repeat, Warcraft, not WoW)? You just said yourself you would have wanted to see more from the demons. The Warcraft universe is awesome Haosis, how come you don't like it? I'm just curious.
    3. I am pretty sure I said that it would have been less if they had done less. If they had done more it would have been more but it would have also cost them more, thus losing them money for no reason. So they found a middleground between having the public enjoy the product but still earn some good money.
    4. Well you see, if they add those 2 missions then why wouldn't they add the other 5 people needed for that other campaign? Or the 3 more there.. or maybe that 1 here too. See where I'm going with this? Having more for the demons would be something they could add for you since you're a demon lover. But if I wanted more Illidan missions what then huh? And if someone else wanted more Rexxar missions? And someone Malfurion? Someone Night Elves? AAaand the project just got a whole lot bigger.
    5. Wait what? I was giving the artist working on a painting as an example of how a worker needs to get pay for what he does. And if he does it faster he would lose some quality in the painting but he would be able to earn what he wants to. So Blizzard did something similar with Warcraft 3, they didn't perfect it but they probably didn't want to spend so much time perfecting it either cuz that would mean they would lose money.
    6. Yea.
    7. Technically it could have been. Including the human factor it couldn't have. Let me try to explain again why. The company pays people to do their jobs and has set a certain time limit in which the product must be made. Now it's the time for the product to come out since the time is up and they have already spent their money on paying their workers.. what you would have them do actually is delay the product's time limit and have them spend more money on paying the workers just to add those extra perfections you want. Ok, so far so bad but what would they get from adding those perfections? Nothing. Cuz, people would not notice them anyways. Not after playing the game which they would have bought. And it's not like the game isn't awesome so people will not feel fucked up if they buy it (like with World of Warcraft Cataclysm). So what's the big deal really? I get that you would have wanted to see these things made better and I agree it would have been better, but think of the human factor when making games and do not blame them for not adding those.
    x. "So the next product will be better" - I said it as it was supposed to be better had it been made by the same team. But it wasn't. And that is when Blizzard went for moneygrabbing and ignored the quality of their work. But had the same team made it and with the same support from Blizzard's side who would not pressure them to make it shittier but faster so they could moneygrab I assure you the product would have been better because these people would have been more skilled in making games now.
    x. Ahahha! xD
    x. Actually I think I'm starting to lose the ability in writing too o_O
    x. Cuz it was very costly back then. Also, movies did not have full out CGI back then. They just added a little or made most stuff by hand.. and, also, money. Movie industry was bigger and fatter and richer, game industry wasn't. So the fact that they made like.. what 40 min cinematics is awesome, since they also had to make a game.. imagine that. They spent a LOT of money you cannot ask from them to have spent more. You could do that now, when Blizzard is fat but back then it wasn't that big. So you should allow yourself to overlook such mistakes since they are reasonable. While as today they are not.
    x. No I meant moneywise, team skillwise and so on. People made games with more soul, true, but they had less budget and less technical skill. But not all new games are like that Haosis.. although I generally agree.
    Well, my time has come. I don't mod anymore like before and I just visit here for some updates and stuffs.
    looked like we are the same age and on the same boat. I'm doing ok. been depressed for months and now I'm at my friends and all the other guys Have gone home.

    now my friend wants to get rid of me :-(

    o well, that's life
    but I'm so so so lazy.

    o well... I'll wait till I'm at a computer before I do anything special

    how are you? just wondering about your life because you've been so nice to me.
    I'll try to clear this up high elves were many, after they fell fewer but still probably a lot since Arthas only passed through there not slay each and every one of them but they were still pretty destroyed. So they scattered. Kael was a leader and more and more guys started joining him, thus, his army growing large. In fact it was small but for a one leader it was pretty big. Like Illidan. It's not like.. a whole kingdom, but still an acceptably large amount of units.
    9. No I mean that, the demon lord is dead, now the "villagers" are scattering. Like with any kingdom, say the king is dead, you've put on the crown, most will scatter. After time there might be a revolution or something (not from demons though) but that is for another quest. The quest "take over the kingdom" is finished and you can move forward to the next mission "against the revolution" not the quest "lets slay off the peasants who served the old king" The second one is just ... boring. And unnecessary in a game.
    Oo, you're talking about the demons coming afterwards the invasion, that will take a lot more time and was supposed to be covered in WoW. You see, Illidan's story stopped there. He took over Black Temple and now yea, basically, "relaxs" (rebuilds, works, etc.) for some time. You cannot instantly have the next mission be "counterattack by the demons who happened to unseal the gates in 1 day".
    10. They actually never meant for him to get killed but badly wounded, due to lack of budget couldn't show it although I am not really sure about this. Probably they excused themselves to revive him for WoW. Your point stands though. Arthas arthas arthas. Yea. It was a story about Arthas xD He was the main character you know? Yea I don't like Frodo or Harry Potter or those shit main chars but.. the story is about them.... unfortunately. Actually I rather like the fact that Illidan is a side-main character. Not as main as Arthas. It makes him more unique kinda...
    10. We cannot take points from Warcraft for not having those though. It would be unfair. It is like saying "why didn't pacman have better graphics or more to do in it?" this is fucking 2003! Lets judge a game in 2015, oh boy am I hater. Cuz in these years they CAN do something but don't. I mostly hate new games. While Warcraft 3 was an innovation, the BEst game in it's time, still stands until today (in fact we are discussing it TODAY, 12 years later), makes it a great game, I realize it has mistakes but I try not to hate-judge or be nitpicky since I realize this product was amazing and the fact that it still stands. I just cannot allow myself to be nitpicky. A recent good example would be Mad Max - amazing movie (or at least when you watch it in the cinema with high volume, it has the best effect), one of the best actions, very professional, YES the story sucks but I try not to be nitpicky. Picky yes. Just not over too much like, why did Mannoroth have 6k hp but die like a normal hero xD (just kidding man, just kidding :cgrin: , but you get my point).

    I think.. I think that, to wrap this up we should instead stop discussing it, because we made our points across, we agree on most things, all I'm trying to say is.. well it's my take on products. Now, no product (movie or game talking about here) is perfect, or at least I haven't found one perfect for me. But there are products that are so amazing I am willing to not hate their mistakes or get furious about their mistakes. Yes I do review their mistakes (in fact you showed me a new type of reviewing gameplay to story, which I hope will get even more coherent in time in the game making industry) but I try not to destroy my fun out of the product and not to disrespect what has been done. Did this product grab me the first time? The second? Maybe the fourth? Then it's just fucking amazing (2 times is enough I think). So I just cannot go judge what masters have made even though I see some flaws. I can review them but not.. well not judge them like that.

    So anyways, I .. expect a reply to what I said :cgrin: and lets really try to wrap this up, probably your reply will be like.. the finale (WITH THUNDER AND LIGHTNING) since these discussion really consume a lot of my time, and perhaps yours too, so I don't really want to.. take your time. You aren't in a summer vacation like me perhaps, can't waste your time..

    Also, I write too much. I am really sorry.
    1. Ah yes, I did say you were right here.
    2. Plug in your headphones, increase the volume to max or very high at least, click these links (1080p fullscreen) and watch them:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCr7y4SLhck
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq4Y7ztznKc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvYXoyxLv64
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLzhlsEFcVQ
    They are just awesome. Not in every aspect but awesome.
    3. Hah! Wrong way of thinking I say! Aim for the impossible, fail, but at least get closer to the impossible. Meaning, the perfect product. If they had not made Warcraft 3 but instead some crappy 2d sidescroller we would not be sitting here discussing this great game. Do you not love Warcraft 3? Isn't it a masterpiece? It is. We can sit here and complain about tiny aspects of it which failed but we cannot reach it's greatness, the two of us are just not that good. And while there's nothing wrong with reviewing we should acknowledge that it's a lot harder to be behind the desk, doing it. I think I said it earlier but, reviewing arts is one, drawing them another. And while I do not mean to say reviewing is easy, the pro levels of it are. The ultra pro ones, true reviewing aren't.
    They wanted an epic fight with Mannoroth and they made an AMAZING cinematic. We can nitpick it all we want, it is amazing. If they had skipped it due to "not possible" we would not even receive it and have nothing to complain about.
    4. Yea a trick, true. Better than killing him in game by hitting him with dmg and seeing his hp go low and after that just hearing a few words and a death animation.
    5. Would have been better, yes. That is why people progress, they see something "could have been better" and fix it next time. Make it better (although Blizzard degraded and if Warcraft IV ever appears it will be complete BS compared to III. Cheesy and shitty). Still, what Warcraft III offers is awesome.
    6. You mean you would have preferred if they cut out the cinematic and instead just let you kill him ingame? The cinematic is the reward dammit! You still beat him, now you just get to see the two heroes kill him.
    7. Another example where gameplay shows how off it is from story (not just for warcraft, all hero respawning games) is hero respawn. That should convince you to completely disregard gameplay in the matter of story and forget about stats and make it believable for you that Mannoroth got killed like any other hero by 2 other heroes.

    I meant that the missions would suck because he would be too weak and often die, making the player feel like he is no big deal. Having him like the BIG BOSS DUDE with 6k hp and 300 damage really makes you feel like "oh shit's getting real, I gotta win this mission". It is a natural human reaction to something OP (not the win part but feeling his immerse presence). If it was just a normal hero he would not be very noticeable, he would have lost character.
    7. No I mean that the enemy has already lost. The player expects the big screen saying "Tu tutututuuu! Next mission". But doesn't get it. He is told "yea go slay a few more demons for no fucking reason, just so we can waste your time and annoy you, you searching for them around the map even though you have obviously won". The mission part is over. It is won. No need to go slaying more demons. That part probably happened in real life, but is instead cut out. Just like with books or movies. These parts get cut out, they aren't needed really. They obviously happened, or were gonna happen so killing off all the demons by destroying the gate was a silly solution they went for. Still better than making me go kill more demons even though I've won. At the beginning of the map I am challenged. At the mid I am up on my nerves fighting perhaps and at the last moments I am probably winning but there is still something to be seen - what will happen. Will Kel'Thuzad die finally or escape? Will Mal'Ganis escape again the fucking asshole? See, some story usually happens. After that little story is finished there is no need to continue this mission. On to the next!
    8. Perhaps. But the story was about Arthas. They were supposed to focus on other characters and the world more in WoW, though they didn't... Ehem. Yea I would have liked to see some more characters too I guess. But that would make the story too loose, with no direction so I'm not sure if it would have been the right choice.
    9. Yea, exactly! Most mission are challenging, thus needed for the players to enjoy. After all, Warcraft 3 is not a story, it is a game. It is supposed to be fun to play not to watch. Want a more story based game? (Try visual novels xD) But seriously, try Mass Effect. Might like it. Might judge it too much like you do with War3. I can't know. Still, it's an amazing game. The first part is best for me though, best story.
    6. No but, the problem is another one here. You see, finishing off an enemy that's lost is boring. Arthas missions, each moved the plot a bit and revelead more characters (lets take the Muradin mission for example) and also provided a good challenge for the player in which he could lose. It was about playing a map against bots who got stronger forces. See this? It is about gameplay. You play the maps and have fun playing the game. Even if lore wasn't moved much.
    Now with having finished the enemy's base and being told to go looking around the map for Demons to kill off is boring. There is no longer a challenge. You have already won but your victory is just delayed. There is no chance for those demons to kill you now, now that you have won. So it's boring. It destroys gameplay. The missions added to it, added maps, different challenges each time and some lore (while finishing off enemies provided none, but added up some annoyance level and boredom).
    On the way hunting the demon a lot of things happen, Jaina left him, he found Muradin, he met Kel'Thuzad, a lot actually happens, come on. And you get to see the world and what's happening, what the Scourge is doing to everyone (seeing massacres and all, if it was in 1 mission you just wouldn't feel it really).

    XForgotWhichPointThisIs. Yea it would have been cool to have some corrupted night elf missions and demon ones, I agree here. Too bad you didn't get to see your favouritte race man :/ Would have been cool.

    Z. Oh you meant that. Yes the demon missions were probably cut a bit short. Now I do not really now why, was it the fact that there wasn't much to happen (like in other missions as I mentioned you meet new characters and so on) or probably lack of budget? You can take points for this I guess. Still, an excusable mistake I am sure. The game had a lot of content for it's time, if they cut it short for no reason then I agree with you. If they had no time then I will not ask for more since it is pretty understandable. It is like, lets say witcher takes 1 week to fully finish and you're like "but they didn't expand on the swamps enough, the game should have taken 1 week and a day to finish". While you would be right since, say, the possible swamps (made up place) could be less developed, you would also be asking for a bit too much. That is, if it was cut short due to good reasons. They expanded on Outland in WoW just.. not as well.............................. ....... ............... Although the locations looked cool..

    Archimonde was killed extremely excusable, like, the characters didn't actually fight him, it was like Batman calling Superman to solve his problems (which never happened but, just an example). I prefer it when the characters solve the problems alone and fight them over by themselves, it just feels like they really did something remarkable. I think Mannoroth's death was better than Archimonde's, both not really believable. That is subjective though.


    Also, I would like to point out that I tried to give contrastatements against all your statements although I do agree with you on most points you made. I just try to continue arguing, pondering together with you so that we can find the problem or the solution. I try to find the best from the opposite side of what we think is right (when we do agree) in order to see the two points. So.. do not take me for a hater who just rejects everything you say, please :cgrin:
    1. Oh I thought this was like a ... like an argument from you against me. As if "how could you say that Blizzard doesn't know their lore?" I guess it was kinda like catching sarcasm when there is none... But ok ok. "I can see things clearly now."

    2. Oh yea it was the head in Warlords of Draenor, my bad. Take into account the fact that they probably didn't have the budget for a longer and more realistic fight. I still think it's believable enough, and for the time was overbelievable considering that there were no such other cinematics, or even that long. So, mind that too. In reality (storywise) the fight probably took much longer and would make more sense. Imagine it written, not animated in 2003 or whenever it was heh. (12 fucking years ago?! Oh man, CG still can't keep up that well). Also, again, ignore Gameplay Logic and think Realistic logic. A fight is a fight. No such thing as chaos damage, just stronger attacks. But he could have missed? Also, he did hit Thrall and get him overstunned and overdamaged with 1 attack.

    3. Yea it's crap. But still, watch it. Lorewise while watching it I was pissed off but the cinematic is actually pretty good. It has good music, a... so-so fight (Mannoroth 8 misses and shooting instead of fighting which is kinda ultra weird) but, come on, Gul'Dan was made awesome. Just watch it. After the first few takes it starts to get cool once you start ignoring the crappy lore and just enjoying the good work of the artists, sound guys and so on.

    4. But you do not understand Haosis, in truth, he wasn't THAT op as he was gameplaywise. Those were just balancing issues. Gameplay is never true to lore! Accept that. Think of Mannoroth as THE character who is mortal like everyone else. The fight, truly wasn't as believable as it could have been but think of the time it was made in (which cut short the fight due to budget), do NOT think of gameplay (which had him stronger in order to balance the missions in which he appears) and just think realisticly. Was it possible for them to kill a big demon? Yes, they are professional fighters (or casters as goes for Thrall). Now imagine real life where there is no such things as dmg or hp or mana. Yes, the cinematic was supposed to represent that real life aspect but it was back in the days when it just wasn't possible. Think of how it would have been in a book. Believable yes? But somehow the game stats changes your opinion and makes you rage and think of Mannoroth as immortal, when truly, he is not. Perhaps I cannot convince you, and I do see your point. But you also should realize that this isn't such a huge mistake since it was possible, just not presented as well. Yes, they probably could have balanced the game otherwise and not make him look immortal ingame but.. the team of the game stats and the team of lore are 2 different ones.. you see, the writers probably had in mind that he will die and that he is mortal like any other demon just stronger. Killable though. The game guys decided he should be stronger in order not to die while you're playing because it would look dumb.. Or something of that sort, I don't know!
    Ok, so you would have fixed them in your map. But now imagine that as the campaign is going, one of the heroes dies and feels just easy to kill like any other hero. And that breaks the lore since you can't just go up to the commander of hell and kill him (Thrall and Grom went to him but he did not have his army) so.. gameplaywise they chose to buff him. I really don't see why you take on game stats so deeply, they are false. In every game they have been false. If they had made him weaker this would have created other problems for the creators, much bigger than what it is now... like the missions would suck.

    5. Oh ok, I was just clarifying here. Yea I know. Still, watch all the WoW cinematics, WOTLK one is pretty epic, cataclysm was good too.. mists too.. Warlords of draenor was the only one to piss me off as I was watching it due to my love for Grom but it is still ultra awesome as a piece of art and all that. Just watch them. Headphones, high sound, full screen, HQ. Ok? Please tell me you will. They are... Fucking amazing.
    Ha! thanks

    I need someone to leak check my map. can you help?

    it's not in fact leaks, but rather out of sync problems when playing lan. I don't know why it does. I need an expert to solve it.
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