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MasterHaosis
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  • Klasika buraz, nije lose... Sljaka se, izlazi se, havarise se... Nema nista novo niti cudno pravo da ti kazem hahahah... Kod tebe buraz? :D
    Well, the last two days it's been raining constantly, but somehow the nights are awfully hot D:

    But I do kind of envy you, I love the high temperatures!
    6. No no no you misunderstood me. I didn't mean agree with me on my Illidan interpretation, I meant agree with me on interpreting unfilled holes. Everybody does that except.. well, you apparently :cgrin: Because when there is a hole, or.. well not a hole cuz that sounds closer to plothole which it isn't... a... an unexplained something which no one says had to be explained, people usually fill it with something. Some people choose very lorewise fillings - like Illidan is mad and a Betrayer, others choose to think of Malfurion as the Betrayer and Illidan as the betrayed. Reasons? Well both have reasons. One protects Furion's point of view, who calls Illidan Betrayer, the other sees Illidan's point of view as the right one (.. in truth, it is I who was betrayed!). In no way is any of the 2 people contradicting with the Warcraft lore since none of them disregards something stated by Blizzard (the Betrayer title is not something given to Illidan by Blizzard directly, but by Blizzard characters, which do not speak of reality. In a game a character could tell you that Jesus is the saviour of everyone and everything but in truth the Plot Writers could have written that Satan is in their world, and that this character is trying to somehow fool the reader into believing the character. The reader can now choose to believe the character or make his own beliefs along the gameplay (say if he saw another character who is a good guy but also hails Satan and now the reader wonders who to pick - Satan or Jesus?). I was merely stating that most will agree with me on this ^, not about Illidan. About picking between Jesus and Satan, well, here it is subjective, as you said it :cgrin:
    7. I think it was the head, but I can't really recall. Besides, it could have been the heart or some deadly point... Ugh -.- It was believable, what I mean. I didn't question it during watching it, afterwards, perhaps, yea. But that makes it believable and also "could have been better". Still acceptable. I won't complain about stuff I like, I could complain against WoW lore which pisses me off AS I WATCH IT (for example, Warlords of Draenor cinematic).
    9. Yes they did want him to lose. But it wasn't a game like Mass Effect where you get to pick the story, they had to make one. And this was an epic finishing fight where the bad guy dies. Would you have rathered if Grom and Thrall died? It was like, the reader already wanted the bad guy dead and the heroes suffered so much already, if they had died it would have been disappointing. I think he should have died there. I will not argue that they wanted him dead though. Yes they did.
    10. Thank you for agreeing here.
    1. Ok
    2. I just said that we can ignore the wronged lore (WoW here). Yes, that would be subjective, but much better. My interpretation of Illidan in Warcraft 3 lore is not ignoring it, neither disregarding it, I just see holes in which I CAN interpret and there I do. They never really said "Yea he is pure evil, here are the FACTS" so I can choose to interpret. If they had said that, I would not argue. In WoW lore they did say that and I was like "ok but this is crap and I'll just forget about it and not enjoy the story". I choose to ignore WoW lore since it is related to Warcraft lore. If there was only WoW lore I would not even like the story, meaning, I would ignore it all. So I am in no way contradicting with the real lore of Illidan. I am merely filling the holes with what I like. Everybody fills the holes with something. Some choose to follow a more strict order and leave them as "Illidan is mad and evil, and a betrayer as all say, so I will think of him as such" and fill these holes with him being mad and evil.. and.. a betrayer :cgrin: That would be you.
    3. As I said, it is a mistake, but it is ignorable since all games have it, and since technology doesn't yet allow us to have full coherence between gameplay and story. While this one could have been fixed, it wasn't, because that would remove some of the player's enjoyability. He would have to go killing off demons, which is pretty time consuming and lame, since the mission would have already ended. Just imagine it - the player goes to "Finish off" the demons when he knows there is nothing more to be seen from this mission. This would not be true gameplay. At least not a fun one.
    4. Ok ok, I was just trying to excuse it here, my bad. I agree it was very off and incoherent but try to understand it please. Gameplay is a no less important factor than story and cannot be sacrificed for story. They both have to sacrifice something in order to both be good. Gameplay will have waves, story will have ... well a good story. The good story might sometimes limit the gameplay but so will the gameplay limit the story.. with waves of mobs.
    5. Now you see, budget probably steps in here but I'd more likely say it was due to gameplay again. Imagine all these more missions, makes things slower and duller. More enjoyable for a die hard demon fan like you :cgrin: but for most players that would be just more things to kill off with the same story. If story to game time was 1:1 in as it is now, what you would have them do is have story to gameplaying time be like 1:4, which would just feel like nothing's happening. Again, gameplay is limiting story but for the fun factor. Look at it not in real time since it probably didn't happen in a few days as it is now. Because, what RTSs essentially are is faaaaaaaaar off from real time. Even though they say real time.. I mean, think of Age of Empires. No way a war would take just 5 hours to finish, or game time 4-5 days. I mean a huge war. It is.. well it's a game. You're supposed to interpret here. You're supposed to understand that what happens in a few hours for you might have been days or weeks or years game time wise. And I'm not talking about the little clock here, I'm talking logic wise. It DID happen as you wanted it to, the fact that they didn't show it is due to game limits... Think of Archimonde's attack, it didn't end so quickly probably. 2 hours, pff. It probably took days, imagine a bit dude. Imagine :cgrin: If you do not, then what you see is veeery far from Reality (since everything happens so much faster and wars are led by squads of 8-16 people), so you shouldn't judge it by reality factors. NO game has real time. Mention one please, and one not boring too.
    Regarding Mannoroth, yes I defended your point gameplaywise. But storywise it is fully possible for the outraged Mannoroth who thinks highly of himself to want a challenge vs the orcs, thinking he is immortal to let them fight him and to get 1 hitted in the head. That is, storywise. Getting an axe to the head kills you. He did not predict that probably. Regarding the infernals, I guess he just wanted to fight them 1v2, feeling like a boss, since a boss he is, but he miscalculated his enemies' strength.

    Also, how would my story look like? First of all, I am no writer. I have tried to skill up myself in reviewing stories, but writing them is many levels above this. Reviewing is easy, I can review artworks now pretty good, having known the rules I have been taught by professional artists and so on. Not saying I'm the best but I think I am much better than I am drawing those arts. Cuz that is what I suck at. You see, if I look at 2 artworks I can immediately tell you which one is more professional and why. But if they are both good I will not be able to draw either of them. And also, there are cases when 2 artworks are just both at a very similar level, that is when you need a professional Reviewer to review them.

    Still. What would I do you ask? With Blizzard's budget? First of all, hire the same old writers who wrote it before, not new ones. After that, hire professional new ones to make the story even better by enhancing the old writers' new story. After that review it myself personally as a reader for any plotholes the writers might have missed (although if they are true pros I doubt they will miss much). After that show the product to many people, like the working artists, modellers and so on. Ask them for their opinions. Look at now revealed plotholes. Ask the writers to fix them. Probably there will even be a person like you in the audience noticing incoherence between gameplay and story. Work out a way to fix the fixable ones.
    Now you might say this is a lot of work. It is. But it's not like they didn't have the time or the team they needed since they could always hire more people to make the work less. Do not even try to excuse them. It was a moneygrab and they were ignorant regarding their own lore, they forgot it and decided not to spent money and thinking (most importantly) in it. Perhaps they hired professional writers but the wrong ones.

    If it was up to me, to make the story all by myself, I would at least try to find writers to write it with, since writing alone and making quality products requires a lot of skill since you might miss on a lot of plotholes AAAAnd take a lot of time to write it. I cannot just tell you in a few sentences. It will take as much as time as it took those in Blizzard, probably even a lot more since I will be alone and unprofessional. I never claimed I can do better. I claimed they can do better.
    Instead, they chose not to care. They chose to be money grabbers.
    Sorry I didn't reply. Had no Internet yesterday.

    And yes. Blizzard now doesn't know it's own lore since the previous creators have been changed and now new people who haven't even taken the time to analyze the story are writing bullshit. Example? Diablo 3's crappy lore, WoW's Lore, I won't go on. Grom, the character who they previously depicted as a defender of his clan, ready to sacrifice for the good of his people, stupid but good at heart for his own kind, betrays his wife in one crappy cinematic saying she wasn't strong enough. Although he valued strength he never would have done such a thing. Blizzard has turned into a money grabbing shit company that produces shit products and yea, they do not know their own lore, I thought it was obvious.
    I know it better, not perfect, but better, since I took the time to understand what the previous creators meant to say with their product, analyzed it and so on. The new ones we can obviously see do not even know what the fuck diablo is and created the bullshit league of legends style diablo 3.
    In fact, a lot of people would agree with me, it's different than your jail example. People who actually know what I'm talking about with Diablo 2 vs Diablo 3. Also, if the jailed man was actually right, some would see that and he would be unfairly imprisoned.
    Oh no no no, his Betrayed title is not the problem here. It was put in during Warcraft lore and it made sense, since he didn't claim himself the Betrayer. He actually says in one cinematic that "Betrayer... in truth, it is I who was betrayed". I am not complaining against his title put on him by Malfurion perhaps, I am complaining about WoW lore because it contradicts warcraft 3 lore. It wasn't written by the same people.
    I never wanted to change his Betrayer title I just agree with Illidan on this one about his title. It is like being known for being a nerd when in truth you're a cool guy (a real life example of a title gone wrong).
    Exactly! I chose not to follow Blizzard's story after Warcraft 3, their epic fall following WoW, Diablo 3, the new Moba shit, acting like copycats, etc. etc. Now I'm not saying WoW (to WOTLK) was a bad game, just that storywise it was.
    Oh no no, I am in truth saying to ignore ALL of the characters' lores after Warcraft 3. Think of Thrall who turned into some lazy prick who just storms shit, think of Grom who is now a pig, think of Illidan, think of Kael'Thas who turned evil to be a boss and so on.
    Regarding the gate, it is gameplay, we already argued here, gameplay is allowed to have "plotholes" since it's gameplay, not story. I mean, in the near future I hope more games will get accurate gameplay's to story but for now, we have to ignore it because it would be impossible to make these two truly coherent. As I said, every game I've known has gameplay to story incoherence, it is inevitable. While this killing off the demons problem could have been fixed, it's not that much of a big issue so it's ignorable, I'll say. Also, probably only lesser demons are still connected to the gates, or probably only these Demons were connected to the gate, for some unknown to the player reason. As I said, WAVES. Think of waves invasions, there is no better example, it is in EVERY fucking RTS and it is inevitable for now. Otherwise the mission would be very short and boring. Sure, it would be coherent with the story (if there was only but 1 wave or so) but it would be boring. And gameplay is about the player experiencing fun not from story, but from GAMEPLAY. So killing off all the demons was the better way for the player to experience fun. For you, it probably pissed you off since you want full coherence between story and gameplay, but as I told you, every game is like that and I just don't know how you handle all these games with gameplayplotholes.

    Ok, it seems we agree here on this thing - it is my private story. Yes it is! But a very similar private story is true for many other players. Why? Because WoW lore sucks ass! Many choose to ignore it, I am only trying to convince you to ignore it as well. Ok remember how Disney made Star Wars the Old Republic non canon? In the hearts of all SW fans it is still canon. No matter what Disney says. If SW7 has Mickey Mouse as Darth Sidious in it (I actually have high hopes not saying it will) everyone will ignore it right? No one will accept it as the truth. There is a point when a product is no longer owned by the owner as much as it is by the fans. If you choose to accept WoW lore then that is why we argue. I am merely trying to convince you to reject it, like so many have. Besides, the product wasn't created by the Blizzard today, it was created by the old Blizzard, so even the owner is different! The fact that he owns the product means nothing to me!
    I wouldn't say I deserved the vacation. I actually wouldn't mind working a bit more :p

    And no, we're both from Denmark, but me being half french and her being francophile :p
    And yeah, same as you, the weather is incredibly hot. I can hardly wear a t-shirt for 5 minutes without sweating insanely!
    But 2-3 days a weeks is more than what I see my girlfriend. I do kind of envy you! :p

    And I'm happy for that too mate!
    I hope you'll have a fantastic summer with less heat than what you've got now :p
    I was hoping you could just send it to the email which he used to register his account? I assume as a moderator you can see it?
    Could you throw ENAleksey an email, tell him I've responded to his PM. It's been a while since he wrote, and I want to make sure he gets the help he needs. :)
    I'm fine mate, I'm on vacation at the moment, so really nothing is happening. Girlfriend going to France for 5 weeks, so I'm just looking forward to relax, party and have a nice time :D

    But what about you!?
    i haven't touched any related stuff with Warcraft for the last 2 weeks. I'm in a very lazy mode. I have a map that i completed and i'm too lazy to upload it. I want to make a gameplay video but i'm feeling too lazy to do anything.
    Read first post first >

    Oh come on Haosis, all RTS games (even the ones you mentioned) aren't coherent. Think of the wave missions. Also, MK doesn't have much story, so we cannot count that in. Try Mass Effect. It probably has some minuses. Like, "Uhm why did the Reaper shoot at me in a certain way of shooting and not just hit me?" or "uhm, why can't the bad guys just snipe my head?" or "why are these NPCs so dumb and come on waves? They could just slay me if they all come together". Yea. The perfect example is "Waves" - a thing found in many games. It means total incoherence between story and gameplay. Also, numbers. RTS games always have them less. Also, time. All games have incoherence between how much time should have passed and how much has actually passed in the game (but I think Witcher 3 might get close to it's supposed time o_O). It's just the way it is. Don't get so mad about it. I don't think Warcraft is any more or any less incoherent here. It was just as possible to kill Magtheridon or Mannoroth as it was possible to fight Saren in ME1 (I will not get into further details in case you haven't played Mass Effect. Oh and, you should. SHOOOOULD).

    Also, Illidan is not Betrayer, he is Betrayed. He was betrayed by his brother who claimed that actually it was Illidan who was the traitor, thus being given the name Betrayer. Betrayer of the Night elf race, etc. But in fact, Malfurion betrayed him, his own brother and left him for dead in prison and afterwards banished him. Even if my brother made some serious mistakes, I would probably know him well enough to know he didn't mean to do that and try to help him instead of fuck him up even more. Furion is the real traitor here.
    Also, creating a new well of eternity wasn't his "betrayal" as Heroes of the Storm (Blizzard) has written who don't know their own lore - his betrayal act was in fact that he helped Sargeras to enter through the first Well of Eternity. Creating a second one wasn't bad at all, wasn't good either though. Furion saw it (the creation of the second one) as an act of betrayal, but he was supposedly put in prison for his first failure - helping Sargeras. The second well hasn't done anything wrong, he did it in order to preserve the well (and furion was a well hater as I said earlier so he was 100% against that. But the Night elf race or the Highborne weren't that much against wells. They used them for immortality, duh.).
    Yes I know that they removed the Illidan vs Arthas cinematic due to lack of time but come on, if you are 100% game stats defender, Grom has no spell to sac himself to kill someone. And besides, he did not sacrifice himself, he just died afterwards because he had drank of Mannoroth's blood and killing Mannoroth led to his death. It was lifelike logical but not gamelike logical. Same goes for Illidan vs Magtheridon. Imagine it storywise being a real fight where there is no such thing as stats or damage. And that Illidan probably evaded most of his attack (lets not forget 25% evasion, imagine each proking if you soo much want it to be gamewise correct) and that Mag never even hit him with his 99999k dmg.

    Now Haos, killing demons with an axe is possible. It was never ever said that you need holy water or such shit. For our demons in real world (in mythology n shit) yes. But TBL can be killed with just about anything. Remember the first wars, etc. They are just too large in numbers. Doesn't mean they can't die. Infernal? Doom guard? All can be killed with axes, Mannoroth is no exception.

    Cleaving attack in reality isn't splash it just means that he can hit more than 1 enemies. If his enemies are smarter than him, they would split/evade/dodge his kinda blind attacks and easily escape, thus him having no cleave at all.

    But ok, lets not view it in reality. Then why view it in game mechanics? Because as I said, no fight would be possible if you view it in game mechanics. On every fucking hold mission the enemies come on waves. It is similar to the Draenei killing Demons one by one you complained about - they would just all jump at them at once and kill them. Also, Grom and Thrall killing Mannoroth - in no way possible. Mannoroth would just call down infernals or just kill them with his chaos dmg, etc. etc.
    So do not look at game stats either.

    Ok so you look at story and gameplay combined (as I read now), but think of it - did you manage to hold the waves in Kel'Thuzad's mission? Did you manage to kill Magtheridon? All yeses? So yea, it IS possible. You say it isn't, but you managed to pass the levels right?

    (technically it doesn't take days, because that would mean that everything in the Warcraft world moves 10 times slower than us or has 10 times faster days than ours, but only the 1st would be a solution since the second would still mean it would need to take days, just that they will be more. Also, no fights are led by 10-16 units, these aren't bandit groups. All of the naga are like, what 80? Yea my ass. So you say demons should have crushed Nagas, Draenei and Blood Elves, but don't look at the games numbers. The numbers of the armies were probably a lot bigger, that camp of draenei wasn't made of 4 people, it was probably a loooot more. Also, demons in Outland are few compared to the real TBL. I think it's very possible that 3 armies would manage to win against so few demons. After all, Outland isn't the main location of the demons from TBL (they are from another world, and came to outland to hunt draenei I think) and after all, not all demons on Outland fought because that would be simply impossible to move them from all continents. Illidan's armies came combined, thus crushing demons one by one while they were regrouping. Now that's a lot of distance we're talking about, they simply couldn't get there in time to gather (think of all the continents with wild beasts everywhere and imagine all the demons gathering to Magtheridon ---> yea... not gonna happen quickly).
    If you really love Magtheridon so much you can say he should have won :cgrin: but even though I really think Illidan would beat Arthas on a 1v1, in that fight he simply couldn't have. Same goes for Mag prob.. he was just caught unprepared. He was never even attacked before, and by 3 armies..
    novi ljudi = mladi ljudi = verovatno jos neznaju nista.. opeci ce se na nesto, sigurno
    No, his powers were strictly against demons or something (which I found kind of illogical, that Sargeras would give him such powers). But I think the powers were more like understanding demons, being one of them, thus seeing them in all shapes and forms, etc. etc., but also knowing their weaknesses and so on. So probably Sargeras meant to give it to Illidan to make him become a better demon but instead he used that knowledge against demons.

    That is completely not true.
    Magtheridon has 104-114+5 damage, 15 Armor, 4600 hit points and 750 mana.
    His abilities are Frost Nova, Howl of Terror, Rainf of Chaos (Archimonde), Cleaving Attack. As well unit abilities: True Sight, Finger of Pain, Shockwave, Frenzy, War Stomp, Bash, Hardened Skin.
    Items he has are: Orb of Fire, Khagdar's Gem of Health, Pendant of Mana, Runed Bracers, Potion of Greater Healing, Legion of Doom-Horn.

    Oo man we already talked about this :cgrin: it is almost completely irrelevant! Think of Mannoroth, the most op pit lord ever, one of the prime demons ruling there. And he got 1 hitted by Grom! Don't think of stats, think of logic. If you get hit in the head with an axe you die. That's what happened. In gameplay it would have been something like 10000 hits. Real fights aren't stats. Imagine that Illidan knew the weakness of pit lords or something and just stabbed him, or that he didn't but just got lucky? Pit lords are pretty slow. Fat, and with a lot of dmg, but slow. Speed is often very important in combat. Knights in Medieval times were pretty OP (1 hit dmg, lots of armor) but often lost due to lack of speed. So speed is OP in real world.

    If you really want to look at game stats, nothing beats Naga Royal Guard. Myrmidon is very OP and the murlocs we won't count since they aren't true naga. And Sirens are good spellcasters - on a 1v1 they lose but so do sorceresses against other units. They are strong in fights. Also, Naga Royal Guard has OP shit spells. But yea if we count in Infernals and Doom Guards TBL prob wins here. Depends on count too. Of the units.

    But ok gameplaywise you are correct. Still, I think you should look at it more from a story view rather than game view. If you really want to look at the game gameplaywise, then all missions are shit. Think of Kel'Thuzad holding - why did they come on waves? Or wait a second, why did all units come on waves during many missions? Also, why do all fights end within 2 hours of gameplay? Why not days, probably even years as it should be?
    I don't know man. You are right of course, but I just see no reason to judge the game from this point of view, because... well if these things piss you off then probably 99% of all games will not have a coherent story to gameplay. Why does the player sometimes lose the boss fight, if he, storywise, has to always win for example? It is a similar case. Or, why can the player move his character in circles like a retard even though it would be illogical for a serious character to do so? All games have these.. game-story holes, is what I'm trying to say. Until we learn how to make lifelike games I think we should try to ignore them. Mind them of course to try and fix them when possible, but not let them reduce the fun out of the content we receive/make (if game developing).
    Nah, not really a big project. A personal project by my friend and me :)
    I'm also trying to find out how to billboard gunshot flashes like the Marine have.
    At least you get to stay home I guess? Must be quite hot... Well at least your girlfriend is with you as well so it doesn't suck too bad right?
    Yes perhaps there it was kind of a mistake on Blizzard's side, but I'll say, a forgivable one since it didn't really matter to me much at the moment. Besides, they were equal then, remember? So they both just gave up. I think that Blizzard was trying to point to us their equal strength, with Illidan gaining favor over time but ultimately Arthas gaining the upper hand by merging with Ner'Zhul (before taking the armors, when NZ was channeling his power into him at the Frozen Throne) and as I mentioned before, the tired Illidan in snow, who actually feels and freezes, unlike Arthas. And tires. Arthas became even more undead after the "childish fight", in which he actually got tired since he was still human. And of course lets not forget undead > human, usually.

    Now about Magtheridon, lets not forget Illidan was a demon hunter, granted the power of seeing all demons, being half demon himself (Gul'Dan), having gotten powers directly from Sargeras himself, the ultra god! Unlike Mag who was just a fag demon who probably never even met Sargeras. He was a pretty small pit lord, the winner, I think, was obvious in that fight. Oh, and draenei were able to hold so far, with some allies they could also probably fight back? And Naga? Op shit creatures, stronger than demons. Kael'Thas? His army was shit but he himself was pretty powerful. Vashj?
    That is my argument about strength. About stealth, I think I can agree here, but probably draenei developed some kind of other stealth, don't put it in such gameplay mechanics. It isn't either he's stealthed or not. It's more complex, we just don't get to see it. There are so many ways to stealth, even in our life, imagine a world of magic. Draenei probably really could hide from demons, somehow, since that is what they had been training for, escape, survival. I am sure they had their ways. There are probably hundreds of types of magics of stealth and true sight doesn't work like in the game, you just see the transparent unit - it's probably something like increasing your smell instincts, or hearing ones, or seeing ghosts, etc. etc. Of course, I am not trying to defend the fact that they didn't explain it, but merely providing an explanation for those who need it, in that case, you, since you question that. You can accept that it is a mistake or try to bend it somehow to your appeal, to get more out of the product you're given. Unexplained things can be interpreted to your liking. In that case, I always choose in favor of a good product and just expand the idea of stealth in my mind which was never touched in Warcraft's lore.
    Although I cannot interpret the fact that it was a frontal assault which pretty much sucked, but hey, at least I got something to defend the stealth theory. You could say I am unhappy from this lack of strategics in an RTS game, yes it could have been done better. I agree. There are many holes I do not like about Star Wars for example, but I love it so much that I somehow manage to ignore what wasn't as obvious and to mod some not well told things to my liking. What I get really pissed about are stuff like a crappy scene which I just cannot change. But stuff like - did Dooku actually have some ideological good ideas for the world and was just against the Republic for their crappy rule and laws n shit, but on the way of "fixing the world" he just crapped it up more? One can never know, it hasn't been truly explained. I can now choose - do I think of him as that character or the dull villain who just destroys for no purpose? Well, as I said, choose to your liking. It isn't like ignoring something that's a fact, that would be if I tried to somehow justify Palpatine's actions, since HE is the generic evil villain, one cannot argue here. Yea... so, I went deep into this to further my point on Illidan. His character was never truly revealed (ignoring WoW here) so I decided I can take things into my own hands and make him the character I always wanted him to be. It's not like I'm right, but neither am I wrong, right? Like, we argued about this - you think of him as an evil dude, I think of him as an antihero... but we both have no real facts to back our theories. Can we see good in his actions? Yes. Can we see evil in his actions? Yes. Can we be sure that he actually meant to do these evil actions? No. Can we be sure that he means to do good but just fails every time? No. Etc. etc. I talk too much, you probably got my point 200 sentences ago xD
    A
    Wait, I didn't repped you, I thought the name + smile is to thanks for repping ?
    I usually mix tiles from different tilesets. I won't decide what I'll use or what I'll make until the contest starts, though, because planning is a significant part of the time it takes to create something, and I don't want to give myself a headstart.
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