12:37, 23rd Jun 2009, by Rui:
The very structure of this melee map's terrain is bad, as well as the neutral buildings' placement, creep choice and their drops. Check my [self=http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/maps-564/the-dragons-lair-129779/#post1182030]review[/self]. Rejected^{(until updated)} with a rounded up 2 (Lacking).

Well what i can now quickly say that i havent ever seen artifacts dropping from any creep camp in any melee-type map. Also i anyways think they are too "overpowered" for melee-type map anyways. =p

i'll check some more in a bit

EDIT: and i also have mostly seen in blizz melee maps, the creeps have been put "Camp - 200".
EDIT2:
as i played the map (3 comp easy + me 2v2) the green creep camp at the blue spot; i had computer there and he got attacked by them. But by changing all the camps to the "Camp - 200" i think that would fix the problem.
also when i was trying to go help my blue team mate the dragons at gren dragon roost attacked me as well; but test that Camp setup first that might fix the problem.

Also just in my opinion the Dragon roost might be better to be in the corner (up-left), switch the camps between them, blue player can use some low lvl guy and go buy some dragons from the roost, i'd think it would balance it a bit.

Overall it was erally well done what i would say =p hmm i'd give 3,5/5 for it (Resources ended up pretty quickly in that game )

Quite good, quite good.
Loving the terrain.
And since there is almost nothing negative about this, I give it a 4/5, since it is not anything too creative.

AlienMaker said:

Well what i can now quickly say that i havent ever seen artifacts dropping from any creep camp in any melee-type map. Also i anyways think they are too "overpowered" for melee-type map anyways. =p

i'll check some more in a bit

EDIT: and i also have mostly seen in blizz melee maps, the creeps have been put "Camp - 200".
EDIT2:
as i played the map (3 comp easy + me 2v2) the green creep camp at the blue spot; i had computer there and he got attacked by them. But by changing all the camps to the "Camp - 200" i think that would fix the problem.
also when i was trying to go help my blue team mate the dragons at gren dragon roost attacked me as well; but test that Camp setup first that might fix the problem.

Also just in my opinion the Dragon roost might be better to be in the corner (up-left), switch the camps between them, blue player can use some low lvl guy and go buy some dragons from the roost, i'd think it would balance it a bit.

Overall it was erally well done what i would say =p hmm i'd give 3,5/5 for it (Resources ended up pretty quickly in that game )

Click to expand...

It's supposed to be a quick game, not a map where you need to spend hours to get enough recourses to build an army.

Thanks for your hints :O
Hmm... camp, ehh ^^ interesting, didn't think about that one

The dragon roost in the up-left corner would indeed be nice (right next to the dragon paw )

Allright, new version will be up in about... I'm guessing 10 minutes.

Edit:
Allright, new version is ready, check changelog for the changes that have been made.
The dragon's loot is now a level 6 Charged item, which is still very good, but not imba

Imagine combining the dragon roost-screeny with the dragon paw-screeny and you've got yourself the actual state of the map, can't be hard, can it?

The terrain could still be improve by adding more type of destructible/doodad such as flower, shrub and rock. At some place, it gives a empty feeling due to the lack of destructible/doodad.

Dire wolf drop a level 2 permanent item, I don't think that was balance. I won't rate it since I do not elaborate all those specific point, but from the point of view. It was approvable.

Vote for approve.

Well looks pretty nice now, maybe there's something with drops, dunno i think they are kind of okay now

only that one red creep camp you left where the dragon roost was might be a bit troublesome if you think how other players can check the other player bases. I mean the red creep camp might be bit on the way of blue spot.

At least cooler now, even thou i couldnt win even Computer Easy... >.< i hate TFT, RoC is nicer =p

Lol
There is a passage to avoid the red creep camp, it's a bit out of the way, but it's easier than rushing through the red camp

Septimus said:

The terrain could still be improve by adding more type of destructible/doodad such as flower, shrub and rock. At some place, it gives a empty feeling due to the lack of destructible/doodad.

Click to expand...

I will do that, I was already thinking of doing it anyway, I was wondering when someone would say that

Septimus said:

Dire wolf drop a level 2 permanent item, I don't think that was balance.

Click to expand...

I have absolutely no idea to be honest, I will change it, though.
(is a Level 1 power up and Level 2 charged good?)

Edit:
Allright, I have changed the terrain a little and fixed some loots, although I would like someone who knows more about melee-maps to say something about the loots, since I didn't play a melee-map since a few months ago.

In melee maps no holes should be present among trees and you sure put a lot of them. Please fix this.

bounty hunter2 said:

In melee maps no holes should be present among trees and you sure put a lot of them. Please fix this.

Click to expand...

Is that a rule? :s
I did that because I really do not like trees that are stacked, I made sure that you cannot walk through the forests, though they don't look stacked and more realistic now.
Well, if you say so, I guess I'll do that...

It's a forest, by the way... it's supposed to have a lot of trees
I don't like the blizzard forests, which are basically a few stacked trees with a few cliffs here and there to make paths and doodads to fill them, I don't think that's a forest...

It's not, but it's necessary. It's not a written rule, but people do it because holes aren't a good thing. The forests around the base should be piled up trees, the rest don't have to be, I think. Ask Rui for that matter, he's good in making melees.

New version up, all trees have been stacked (just in case it was necessary for the whole terrain) and there are more doodads.
New screeny's are available.

YeeShadow said:

Description Your Map description on the Hive. - Max Points 5 Presentation In-game description. - Max Points 10 Gameplay Basic gameplay. - Max Points 5 Terrain Basic terrain, use of doodads and bonus points. - Max Points 10 (Max Bonus Points 5) Replay-Value Is this map worth playing it again? - Max Points 5

Full Review

Description 5/5

Hive Description

Great description, but you cheated... just look at your signature XD (The tutorial xD) 5/5

Presentation 10/10 = 5/5

First Impression

Again great description and the minimap looks cool, I actually have a strange rule for myself, if the minimap looks good, then the terrain does too. 5/5

In-Game Description

You actually change the description in this part, most of the people just do a copy-paste for that, but you didn't do that. 5/5

Gameplay 5/5

Basic Gameplay

Weird, but great, seriously, I just loved the no-symmetric map you created, well, it is actually symmetric, but at the same time it isn't, so the balance and must of the things that could change the gameplay have been foreseen, great job here. 5/5

Terrain 7/10 = 3.5/5

Basic Terrain

Like must of the people that make maps, you have the same trouble here, some parts of the map look great, but some others are a little plain, the north-east part is the most plain of all, the tile does not change much, and very little doodads there, and there are some others parts that look similar. Some parts also look a little flat, you could add some puddles to change that. 3/5

Doodads

The lack of doodads in this map makes it look plain as I said before, but only in some areas. 3/5

Bonus Points

The weather is a cool addition, really, must of the people doesn't use the weather correctly. 1 BONUS POINT

Replay-Value 4/5

Play again?

The idea of the no-symmetric map is great and is well used here, but you only score a 4 here, the simplistic terrain in some parts actually affects the replay-value, the melee maps are all about terrain, and if it looks uncool in some parts, then, it affects the decision to play again there. 4/5

Last Comments - Total 22.5/25

Great... but wrong

Great job overall, but as you noticed my major concern is the terrain, and your final score is 4, it does not matter if you scored a 4.5, it's a rule for my reviews, if you got a 3.5, it will be a 4, but I cannot put a 5 with a 4.5 or more, because 5 is the perfect score, and the map is not perfect, sorry for that. If you change something please let me know, I'll be happy to re-make my review then. Final Score = 4

Click to expand...

Thank you, I didn't expect such good comments actually

Description/Presentation:
Hehe, at least this shows that it's a good and useful tutorial
I always look at the minimap myself, if I don't like it, I change the terrain until the minimap looks good ^^ that's just how I do it, so no surprises there

The description is also one of the things that must be good whenever I finish a map.
I can't stand incomplete tooltips, 'new spelling' (like "how r u doin?" - that's not right in a map, I speak like that with friends whenever I'm too tired to write full words), it's allright if your English is weak, as long as you do your best (Septimus, for example, isn't really great at English, yet his descriptions are really good).
Maps without a description are also more likely to be less fun...

Gameplay:
I've worked following this principle:

1. Every player has equal drop chances.
2. Every player has the same amount of gold mines at his.
3. Every player has the same amount of train-spots.
4. The total level of the train-spots are equal for every player.

It seems like I did a good job with that (I thought that would be a failure, since it's my first melee-map...).

Terrain
Yeah, puddles! That's actually a great idea, I like that...
The fog just seemed right for a mysterious forest, if I imagine a mysterious forest, I see a forest with a thick, colored fog.

Hope the reviews was useful for you. ^^
And by the way, great screenshots in the description. I forgot to mention that XD

YeeShadow said:

Hope the reviews was useful for you. ^^
And by the way, great screenshots in the description. I forgot to mention that XD

Click to expand...

It was certainly useful, but... I think it's too late to add puddles now :/
I didn't use shallow water when creating the map, so I don't get puddles when I lower the terrain...
I will remember it for my next melee-map, though! (if I ever make another one )

And thanks again ^^
Of course I show the good screeny's and not the bad parts of the map

Rui's review for "The Dragon's Lair" (melee map by ap0calypse)

I think you need to redo just about everything in this map.
The starting locations are not fair for all players. While Red and Teal have a well covered expansion base, Purple has an exposed one. Blue does too, with the extra factor that his expansion is the farthest from his main base.

This also applies to other neutral buildings such as Goblin Merchants; Teal has one next to his base while Blue has to travel a lot to get to one of the two present on the map.
Having one of those close to the base also goes against the placement these structures should have.
Then we have this Dragon Roost to the top left. Again, Red and Blue are closer.

Not all creep camps are well composed and the drops do not convince me either. A Furbolg and a Green Dragon...? Night Elves have Archers, which grant that they can creep this camp faster, while the Undead can't even attack air with their tier 1 units, save with a ranged hero.
The Furbolg Ursa Warrior and the two Drakes in the middle of nothing also seemed a little weird.

The trees should have no spaces for small collision units to get through.

If I had your map in hands, I don't think I'd know how to fix it. The very structure of the terrain is bad (unfair starting locations), like I mentioned in the first paragraphs.
My rating is a 1,5 out of 5, which rounds up to a 2 (Lacking). The map is Rejected. It is just too bad at the moment.