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Stairs of Destiny

This bundle is marked as useful / simple. Simplicity is bliss, low effort and/or may contain minor bugs.
Stairs of Destiny
156552-18ce32400fb143835cd82c15bf8fad22.png

latest



Brief Description


A Black Citadel melee map with 2 goblin labs, 2 merc. camps, 2 goblin merchants, 2 marketplaces, 1 tavern. Each player has 1 expanding mine and the chance to co-expand to a dual goldmine base to share.
The terraining has been done with Blizzard presets, with no imports and not changing the game data of the doodads. I used 8000 doodads so far.

Theme

Stair of Destiny

The Stair of Destiny is where the Dark Portal is in Outland / Hellfire Peninsula. Stairs of Destiny because I decided to do many Stairs and 1-3 portals.

Game play Details



There are 2 main green creeps routes.
1-the route is safe going to the marketplace, 1 green, 1 green, 1 orange, but the loot is 1 L1, 1L1, 1 L2 power ups, no permanents (safe route, less rewards). Here the orange is competitive between teams.
2- The other route is 1 green, 1 green, 1 orange, 1 power up L1, 1 permanent L1, 1 permanent L2,
here the orange are competitive also with the enemy.
It is posible, that the permanent L1 creep can by hi-jacked if one player delays to go there and the enemy rush to go there.
3) Merc. and goblin labs are competitive between teams, but the goblin merchants are competitive with the enemy.

There are 2 expanding options:
1- coperative expansion with dual goldmines, defended with a red creep level 26. There are rectangles of unbuildable tile to marc where each townhall can be build. The dual goldmine base has few wood compared to the single goldmine expanding.
156823-bce8f7cf016e6d72d2e1004c00ce55e2.png

I took the paired goldmine idea in some of the 4v4 melee contest, and the unbuildable tiles, is a RA3 idea to point the best placement.

2- expand alone, where each player can expand to their near single goldmine and get near the goblin merchant.

AOW places:
The goblin lab and the merc. camp are very good points for a AOW placing strategy.
Always use a wisp to repair, loose the AOW is like a KO in competitive play.
also merc. camp and goblin lab can be taken down in coperation.
157365-d6001ad520bbda65118e26b3ecd0b3ab.png

Scouting Places:
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you can build towers in some highground spots ideal for scouting.

Wall the base strategy:
157364-0f5544a60f837642a9c12013585958fc.png



Tavern first Hero Strategy:

Go to the tavern, pick the hero, retreat to your proper permanent L1 creep, creep it, retreat to the proper power up level 1 creep, with the disciple healing, and level 2 hero. Verticals players have advantage over horisontal, but in terms of teams, is balanced.



Map creep levels and loot


156864-460c7bbbc989e8ac0b74d8b16d7c5d88.png



158378-1420e576017f28cbea2646cac488b56f.jpg



note croped with many screens (like 16, some parts dont fit, did the best I could)

Credits

Map made by Ragnaros 17

Changelog
1.00 upload (map 100% playable, but still pending more doodads and beta test)
april 12th update, the green creeps going to the marketplace, some with power up any level changed to power up level 1, a mistake.
april 15th update, adjusted some creep positions in goblin labs and merc. camps, and adjusted some trees positions for NE scouting.
april 22th, minor changes in the tavern area, more deep lateral walls.
april 23th, changed the tiles near the paired goldmines.
april 29 th, added 7 screenshots of the map, no map changes.

This map is a contest entry for the 2v2 melee contest.
Melee Mapping Contest #4 - 2v2


Author Notes

Black citadel / Outland creeps such as succubi, draenei, fell guards, infernal machines, eredar mages, void walkers, dont sleep.
fell beast sleeps but L5 and L7 have mana burn and devour magic.
black citadel creeps they are very hard to balance when you need creeps that sleep or safe ranged units.

Because of that I had to use creeps of other tile-sets.

- Orges: there are orges in the Blade-Edge mountains from Outland.
- Stormreaver mages, they are orcs, they came from here.
-Crabs, Hydra, I put them in an acuatic zone.
- Reef elemental, revenants of the tides, in an acuatic zone as invocations of the stormreavers.
- Dugeon revenants, skeletons, salamander, they just fit in this red enviroment.
- Dark trolls, in WC2 beyond the dark portal, the horde retreated to Draenor with everything, orges, orcs, trolls, what-ever, and dark because... well a lot of dark is here. There are blue/violet trolls in Straglethorn , very near to the portal location, so yup they could be those. They are good balanced ranged units that sleeps.

The computer when expands to the paired goldmine, it does it successfully but, is not very inteligent, so it can block the second goldmine with a tower, a farm (a workshop in my case). So if the computer expands, you should expand there too. If all 4 players are human beings that wont happen unless your partner really screw you to expand.
Contents

Stairs of Destiny (Map)

Reviews
Cigaro
I've noticed that there were arguments about this map in the contest thread but I've only scrolled over that so allow me to start a critique from zero. I can see that you've put a lot of effort into the design and some of it looks cool, but it's too...
mafe
Approved based on the results of the recent 2v2 Melee mapping contest: Melee Mapping contest #4: 2v2 - Results
Level 12
Joined
May 12, 2012
Messages
104
I've noticed that there were arguments about this map in the contest thread but I've only scrolled over that so allow me to start a critique from zero.

I can see that you've put a lot of effort into the design and some of it looks cool, but it's too crazy for a standard melee map in my opinion. It's good that people keep trying to work with the unpopular tilesets, but they are unpopular for a reason (Personally, I hate the mushroom trees). If you want a melee map to be actually played, then you'd need to look for the smallest common denominator, and that's a pretty forest or island or village or something along the lines of that. Even if a map is partly snow-covered, some people will already refrain from playing it. If it's a crazy dungeon, even more will hate it and it won't win contests.

Additionally, there's just too much going on. You've used pretty much every 'horror' doodad available, especially on the hills around the map, but less would have been better. It's perfectly fine if stuff keeps repeating itself - for example, the dungeon spikes with the skulls are cool and simple.

And this look pretty awesome:

waterfall-of-doom.jpg

Similar problem with the map center. You've got brick terrain that's supposed to represent a demonic temple or other structure, but then there's also a pool with green water and sewers. I don't think that was needed, the bricks alone were completely fine.

Of course I realize that this is all a question of taste, but it's already a difficult tileset just by itself and I found that the countless different things make it confusing, even if some of them add to the atmosphere.

===

Those twin gold mines with little gold and a huge creep camp are highly unorthodox, but people enjoy playing their own thing. They don't want to figure out unusual strategies for unusual scenarios that the map is presenting to them. As you've stated yourself, the twin mine has no lumber and almost no room to build nearby (because of the terrain). I'm sure that it can technically be played that way, but it's super restrictive and people have to adapt. You cannot seal that base off with towers, the enemy heroes will always be able to walk past the town hall:

corridor.jpg

You need to figure out where to get wood if not from there. Do you build a random sawmill somewhere? You need a different strategy to defend your expo buildings because they will be very far out in the open. You need to re-evaluate the expansion itself since that gold mine only contains 6,500, and your investment in a town hall becomes more risky. Even if one or two of my points are not a concern, other people will come up with thirty more and pro players with a hundred and thirty. Some strategies will inevitably become more viable than others, thus altering the meta. That's fine in a fun map on a friendly afternoon, but it's not tournament-ready.

The neutral buildings seem fine.

I'm not too familiar with distances in 2vs2 maps, but they look okay from here.

The tree lines at the starting positions and gold mines will work, though I would instinctively make them a bit more "pointy" towards the rear. I'll need to research this topic on my own though to make a fact-based statement.

You should place a critter next to the tavern for UD I think. Overall amount of critters is fine.

===

The creep camps as a whole look acceptable, you've got a solid mix.

Some of the item drops are a slightly off. The satyr / fel beast camp is lvl 9 but only drops a lvl 1. Some camps drop pre-determined tomes, but I would rather have them drop random tomes.

The lvl 26 camp in front of the twin mine should drop a lvl 5. You ought to make sure though that the item cannot be sniped easily, as your main creep in that camp is of a fairly low level.

Several creeps do not have their mana set to full (at least not when I open the map with my editor, but there seemed to be some glitches with this).

I would push some creep camps back to make them less of a risk to units that are just passing by. None of the camps are super problematic, but you've got lots of room anyway, so I would play it safe.

pathing.jpg

===

To sum it up, the tileset is too bananas for my taste (sorry!). Some of the doodads look cool and tasteful, but a lot of it is over the top in my eyes (again, that's 100 % a question of taste).

Each and every map has their little twist, but the twin gold mines with narrow building area and no lumber probably go too far if you wanted this map to be played on a serious level. You could of course fix it pretty easily.
 
Level 29
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,635
I've noticed that there were arguments about this map in the contest thread but I've only scrolled over that so allow me to start a critique from zero.

I can see that you've put a lot of effort into the design and some of it looks cool, but it's too crazy for a standard melee map in my opinion. It's good that people keep trying to work with the unpopular tilesets, but they are unpopular for a reason (Personally, I hate the mushroom trees). If you want a melee map to be actually played, then you'd need to look for the smallest common denominator, and that's a pretty forest or island or village or something along the lines of that. Even if a map is partly snow-covered, some people will already refrain from playing it. If it's a crazy dungeon, even more will hate it and it won't win contests.

Additionally, there's just too much going on. You've used pretty much every 'horror' doodad available, especially on the hills around the map, but less would have been better. It's perfectly fine if stuff keeps repeating itself - for example, the dungeon spikes with the skulls are cool and simple.

And this look pretty awesome:

View attachment 321871

Similar problem with the map center. You've got brick terrain that's supposed to represent a demonic temple or other structure, but then there's also a pool with green water and sewers. I don't think that was needed, the bricks alone were completely fine.

Of course I realize that this is all a question of taste, but it's already a difficult tileset just by itself and I found that the countless different things make it confusing, even if some of them add to the atmosphere.

===

Those twin gold mines with little gold and a huge creep camp are highly unorthodox, but people enjoy playing their own thing. They don't want to figure out unusual strategies for unusual scenarios that the map is presenting to them. As you've stated yourself, the twin mine has no lumber and almost no room to build nearby (because of the terrain). I'm sure that it can technically be played that way, but it's super restrictive and people have to adapt. You cannot seal that base off with towers, the enemy heroes will always be able to walk past the town hall:

View attachment 321877

You need to figure out where to get wood if not from there. Do you build a random sawmill somewhere? You need a different strategy to defend your expo buildings because they will be very far out in the open. You need to re-evaluate the expansion itself since that gold mine only contains 6,500, and your investment in a town hall becomes more risky. Even if one or two of my points are not a concern, other people will come up with thirty more and pro players with a hundred and thirty. Some strategies will inevitably become more viable than others, thus altering the meta. That's fine in a fun map on a friendly afternoon, but it's not tournament-ready.

The neutral buildings seem fine.

I'm not too familiar with distances in 2vs2 maps, but they look okay from here.

The tree lines at the starting positions and gold mines will work, though I would instinctively make them a bit more "pointy" towards the rear. I'll need to research this topic on my own though to make a fact-based statement.

You should place a critter next to the tavern for UD I think. Overall amount of critters is fine.

===

The creep camps as a whole look acceptable, you've got a solid mix.

Some of the item drops are a slightly off. The satyr / fel beast camp is lvl 9 but only drops a lvl 1. Some camps drop pre-determined tomes, but I would rather have them drop random tomes.

The lvl 26 camp in front of the twin mine should drop a lvl 5. You ought to make sure though that the item cannot be sniped easily, as your main creep in that camp is of a fairly low level.

Several creeps do not have their mana set to full (at least not when I open the map with my editor, but there seemed to be some glitches with this).

I would push some creep camps back to make them less of a risk to units that are just passing by. None of the camps are super problematic, but you've got lots of room anyway, so I would play it safe.

View attachment 321878

===

To sum it up, the tileset is too bananas for my taste (sorry!). Some of the doodads look cool and tasteful, but a lot of it is over the top in my eyes (again, that's 100 % a question of taste).

Each and every map has their little twist, but the twin gold mines with narrow building area and no lumber probably go too far if you wanted this map to be played on a serious level. You could of course fix it pretty easily.

-paired goldmines where used and praised by judges in the 4v4 contest, read the pdf if you dont believe me,
I wouldnt have jumped in to that idea without some positive previous comments, I am not that crayzy.
-goldmines with no wood also exist. Many times I played and dont bother to log wood from expandings,
when I stated about the wood, I didnt ment it exactly to the paired golmines, but more over the roads for spells.
-I understand that with marketplaces , level 5 items should be avoided, it may unbalance the marketplace randomly, level 4 are more safe.


(Personally, I hate the mushroom trees)


one of the judges praised my mushroom trees in the 4v4 contest, read the pdf if you dont believe me.

I would push some creep camps back to make them less of a risk to units that are just passing by.

I didnt spot that, agree, thats called chance of agro, sometimes happens depending on the size of the army.
it didnt happen and it wasnt mentioned in the twich video, probably it will occur eventually.

Each and every map has their little twist, but the twin gold mines with narrow building area and no lumber probably go too far if you wanted this map to be played on a serious level. You could of course fix it pretty easily.


is too late now. this feedback came too late.

To sum it up, the tileset is too bananas for my taste (sorry!). Some of the doodads look cool and tasteful, but a lot of it is over the top in my eyes (again, that's 100 % a question of taste).

the problem of the tileset opinions is that they focus only in the tiles and not in the tile mix effort.
it seems that a map with many monotiles green parts has more value than a map that fully mixed the tiles creating different enviroments.

as example I just hate city theme maps because I dont like to much unbuildable tiles (to much village unbuildable tiles makes it really crap for balance even if is more nice than outland tiles) and I dont like the map looking all flat in the city parts, and I hate the house spamming because they look all the same, with rocks and archways at least you can do somethinf different.

But that doesnt mean I am going to not vote a city map, only because I hate city theme. If a city map is well done I would vote it even if I dislike cities in general.

in fact in terms of "taste" I think ashenvale tiles and maps are the best above all others tiles, in terms of taste to me Ashenvale maps should crush the other maps always, but is just taste, I dont use that "taste thinking" when reviewing maps.

to me enviroment is about quality, skill, effort, terraining tricks, not just random taste that changes from person to person.

And this look pretty awesome:

thanks,

thanks for the review, very helpfull.

if there is a next contest, probably I will use a safe tileset, like Lordaeron Summer, just to play more safe and be worthy as participant.


PD: the green water was to cut to much red,
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Level 12
Joined
May 12, 2012
Messages
104
-paired goldmines where used and praised by judges in the 4v4 contest, read the pdf if you dont believe me,
I wouldnt have jumped in to that idea without some positive previous comments, I am not that crayzy.
I have no doubt that some people like it, and I can see the fun factor in it, but I don't think it's a first choice for tournaments.

-goldmines with no wood also exist. Many times I played and dont bother to log wood from expandings,
when I stated about the wood, I didnt ment it exactly to the paired golmines, but more over the roads for spells.
It may not be an issue in many games, but if your original base is destroyed and you depend entirely on your expo, then the lumber issue makes things harder than it usually would.

-I understand that with marketplaces , level 5 items should be avoided, it may unbalance the marketplace randomly, level 4 are more safe.
You may be right. In that case I would weaken the creep camp, too.
 
Level 29
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
1,635
I have no doubt that some people like it, and I can see the fun factor in it, but I don't think it's a first choice for tournaments.

It may not be an issue in many games, but if your original base is destroyed and you depend entirely on your expo, then the lumber issue makes things harder than it usually would.

You may be right. In that case I would weaken the creep camp, too.

- goldmines above in cliff or boats arent also a first choise and I dont see people jumping to the neck of the mapper who used that.

-if your base is destroyed, thats it, you loose the tier 2- tier 3, is ko, in competitive play, loose the main is a ko.

- that camp can be taken easyly in coperation by the team in tier 1, even the AI can acomplish that, they go were you creep.

lesson learned, never again paired goldmines , never again black citadel tiles or other "rare tiles".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Level 23
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
1,305
lesson learned, never again paired goldmines , never again black citadel tiles or other "rare tiles".
I really hope you don't learn to not use rare titles again. Lordaeron Summer/Sunken Ruin Tiles are so overused in warcraft competitive melee scene, it denies people from experiencing the full range of warcraft 3 environments. I was so happy when they added "Northern Isles" and "Tirisfal Glades" to the official map pool for 1v1 a few months ago. It was a breath of fresh air to see Lordaeron Winter/fall environments + creeps.

Tirisfal Glades LV - Liquipedia Warcraft Wiki
Northern Isles - Liquipedia Warcraft Wiki

Hopefully Blizzard continues to implement more variety for map titlesets in official competitive ladder maps.
 
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