Siege of Quel'Thalas LR 3.6

Moderator · Jul 14, 2012

Vengeancekael - [Contact]
Date: 2012/Aug/21 21:40:08

Comment: [Approved]

Resource Moderation - Rules

Orcnet · Jul 14, 2012

your map info looks unfinished, do please fix it for some of us can test it and understand the map clearly

Marshmalo · Jul 14, 2012

Added some Screenshots!

ImperialShadow · Jul 14, 2012

First typo for your map that is shield not sheild.

Forsaken · Jul 14, 2012

i play and like very much
good map

Marshmalo · Jul 16, 2012

Thanks Forsaken. Map is now available through Make me Host!

Orcnet · Jul 16, 2012

Map Review

Siege of Quel'Thalas Legacy Reborn(Version 2.2)

Rating System:

Rate Score Percent Letter

5/5 91-100 A

Rate Score Percent Letter

4/5 81-90% B

Rate Score Percent Letter

3/5 75-80% C

Rate Score Percent Letter

2/5 70-74% D

Rate Score Percent Letter

1/5 50-69% F

Overview:

Gameplay

Siege of Quel'Thalas: Legacy Reborn is a real time strategy risk game that depicts the Third War of Azeroth and the rise of the second Lich King and his abusive course for the destruction of the home world of elven hides in Silvermoon. The game consists of 2 Teams: Team 1 hold 4 players via Yellow, Green, Teal, and Blue player, while Team 2 only takes 3 via Red, Light Blue, and Purple player plus 1 additional controllable AI players for each teams, since gold mine is the only main resource of the game, then it is distributed with 1 gold mine for each players, and thus a few is scattered for players to take hold onto.

Game ends when Team 1 destroys all 3 Spawning Pits from the enemy faction or Team 2 manages to destroy all 3 Shield Generators including the Sunwell within 90 minutes of game time.

"To start up my feed back, the gameplay is quite decent and well executed, also it is very user-friendly since the game style is very similar to the actual melee genre of the warcraft III strategy, surprisingly, their are additional spells, units, and heroes added to the game that made it very pleasing to continue."

Terrain

"The terrain has been revealed with such details it is much an eye-candy for players such as the rolling waters, open grounds of the Amani trolls, and the armored city of elven silvermoon, somehow the undead grounds doesn't reveal that much maybe because the blight has taken over for its environment but it will look great if you can assemble some ruin or rotted doodads across that area to give it some texture, much to the trees and tiles, a few more of them can turn this map as a recommended game."

Management

"All in all, the game's contents and its difficulty remains moderate but well made, I haven't spotted any bugs but I guess a few, their is an area of the map in the north-west part of the elven area were some of the units cannot pass in the open ground, probably a hidden block doodad is place under it or something else, also I suggest to expand the bridges and gates of the game since it quite small for a team fight, somehow just replace it with something expansive such as the dalaran city gate or its to you to build."

Total Score:

Rate Score Percent Letter

12/15 90% B

Status: APPROVED

Marshmalo · Jul 17, 2012

Orcnet said:
Terrain

"The terrain has been revealed with such details it is much an eye-candy for players such as the rolling waters, open grounds of the Amani trolls, and the armored city of elven silvermoon, somehow the undead grounds doesn't reveal that much maybe because the blight has taken over for its environment but it will look great if you can assemble some ruin or rotted doodads across that area to give it some texture, much to the trees and tiles, a few more of them can turn this map as a recommended game."

I agree Purple and Lightblue's bases need some more interesting terrain, I will take your suggestions on board. Decent ruin doodad models are quite hard to find though.

"All in all, the game's contents and its difficulty remains moderate but well made, I haven't spotted any bugs but I guess a few, their is an area of the map in the north-west part of the elven area were some of the units cannot pass in the open ground, probably a hidden block doodad is place under it or something else, also I suggest to expand the bridges and gates of the game since it quite small for a team fight, somehow just replace it with something expansive such as the dalaran city gate or its to you to build."

I'm not sure what area you mean, can you be more specfic? Is the blocked area near someones base or something?

Regarding Bridges, pathing is only an issue if your playing undead as Elves have very small collision size but even as undead I have not had a problem with this. If undead are having a hard time breaking a well defended chokepoint just go meat wagons, their splash damage rips apart elven archers.

About bugs, unfortunatlely it has been pointed out me during multiplayer games that there is quite afew major bugs I need to address. These will be looked at in next version aswel as afew new features.

Status: APPROVED

Thaks for your detailed review Orcnet! It says approved but for some reason this map is still on the pending maps list and not on the main maps list?

BlueChampion · Jul 17, 2012

@Orcnet man its hard to write everything about the map ;P

Forsaken · Jul 18, 2012

When I was playing, and I died, my hero was part of the scourge. so I decided to leave it with the cheat, but during the game I thought how I would have to win, I need to destroy the sun well and all Spawning Pits? when I did that I won, but left the game waited for the time runs out.

you could improve on:
- Alleria Windrunner died (not proof, but it is clear that she is dead) in the second war when the Dark Portal was closed. So you could put the reagent of Quel'Thalas, Lor'themar_Theron, he also lutoi the third war with Sylvanas Windrunner.

- While the Rangers could do all they'd only powers, Blink (to facilitate the escape and when will Destroy the bridges do not fall into the river and die by the Scourge) and Wild Walk (to help destroy the bridges and melhoar flight).

- When a hero (elf) dies, he can become independent, then why he could not return to be part of the elves, just to help and if the player wants?

- One more thing, I saw that Prince Kael'thas is on the map, but I could not put it on my troops as I do that? or no way?

Thank you.
To improve this map will look better than it already is.

Marshmalo · Jul 18, 2012

Forsaken said:
When I was playing, and I died, my hero was part of the scourge. so I decided to leave it with the cheat, but during the game I thought how I would have to win, I need to destroy the sun well and all Spawning Pits? when I did that I won, but left the game waited for the time runs out.

Sorry I don't understand what you mean? Yes you an go solo if you have your free will.

you could improve on:
- Alleria Windrunner died (not proof, but it is clear that she is dead) in the second war when the Dark Portal was closed. So you could put the reagent of Quel'Thalas, Lor'themar_Theron, he also lutoi the third war with Sylvanas Windrunner.

Alleria has not been confirmed dead but I realise she was not actually there during the Third War, however I added her to finish off the 3 Windrunner sisters. All three of them make very interesting and fun characters to play so I've bended the lore abit there to include them.

- While the Rangers could do all they'd only powers, Blink (to facilitate the escape and when will Destroy the bridges do not fall into the river and die by the Scourge) and Wild Walk (to help destroy the bridges and melhoar flight).

I have included triggers to automaticaly move units off a bridge just before it is destroyed, if these are not working correctly I will have to go back and check these triggers for bugs.

- When a hero (elf) dies, he can become independent, then why he could not return to be part of the elves, just to help and if the player wants?

He can, provided you have your free will just type "-Ally Good" and you will rejoin the elves.

- One more thing, I saw that Prince Kael'thas is on the map, but I could not put it on my troops as I do that? or no way?

Do you mean Anastaran? Kael is no where in the map.

Thx for the feedback!

Orcnet · Jul 19, 2012

my apologies about those statement, I am having a hard time uploading the photos in my post so I guess I'll just send them in your profile instead, also I already asked Kobas about the approval of this map but looks like he's busy with something

BlueChampion · Jul 24, 2012

Nice map, I like it. I think that elves air and demons are a bit imba. Blue's ranger have got really strong aura (+48% movement speed and +23% attack speed). I think that idea with burning bridges is very original, I have not seen it before. Towers should cost food or sth like that because if sb spam it like me and use his units right, its very hard to break the defense... Oh and the time for defenders win is a bit too long ;p have You ever saw that the defenders win (not vs retarded attackers xD)?

Marshmalo · Jul 24, 2012

Hi BlueChampion, thanks for rating!

Next version includes alot of balance fixes but I would rather provide players with counters rather than just nerfing units outright, I don't want to ruin peoples tactics. For example I have not nerfed your tactic of towering + massing air next version, instead I have provided ways for Undead to counter.

In next version Elves will not be able to build on Blighted land, so an intelligent scourge player can blight an area to stop someone towering there. The build cost and build time of Frost Wyrms has been decreased making these more attractive as Anti air units. Undead players can also counter your air with web + Doom Guards which for some reason Scourge players werent doing during our games.

Doom Guards can be countered by the Sorceress's Polymorph spell and if you ahve a Dark Ranger on your team she can possess them. Infact it is a very bad idea to attack Dark Rangers with Doom guards as you can end up just having to fight your own units!

I'm working on next version now and hope to have it out sometime next week!

BlueChampion · Jul 24, 2012

so give them autocast for the polymorph... wyrms are imba in normal w3, i have got bad feelings that u ll make them imba too, wyrms ARE NOT AA!!! they are heavy air units(magic damge deal 150% dmg to heavy armor) and they got splash dmg which decrease units movement speed and attack speed on the small area. please dont make limits for units... I said You, if u badly balance units, players ll use only 1-2 types of them instead of using all, thats make map less atractive and poor... in my opinion ALL UNITS SHOULD BE GOOD BALANCED

Chizume · Jul 29, 2012

I played Fall of Quel'Dorei before I played this one. I gotta say I enjoy this one more! However the gameplay experience could use some improved quality of life. Nevertheless I had much fun playing it the other day. The two times I played it the game ended with people leaving or giving up before the timer ran out. Boy, is it long!

Marshmalo · Jul 29, 2012

Chizume said:
I played Fall of Quel'Dorei before I played this one. I gotta say I enjoy this one more! However the gameplay experience could use some improved quality of life. Nevertheless I had much fun playing it the other day. The two times I played it the game ended with people leaving or giving up before the timer ran out. Boy, is it long!

lol I know the timer is stupidly long, no games should really last longer than an hour, timer will be reduced in next version.

Fall of Quel'Dorei is fun but even though it's based off this map it has very different game style, so its all down to personal preferance

Thanks for playing! Other than the timer can you think of anything else that needs improving? I'm working on a very big update to the map now.

Chizume · Jul 29, 2012

Okay, here we go. I haven't played it enough to have an opinion on balance. Note that most of the points below are subjective suggestions rather than actual bugs.

Make cinematics skippable with Esc. Perhaps if the majority of players choose to do it. As pleasant and informative as it may be; its still annoying after a few games.
Workers on the Quel'Thalas side should be ordered to start mining automatically when the game starts. Also perhaps it would be a good idea to ping the locations. First time I played I didn't realize I had them before 10 minutes had passed!
From what I gathered the NPC units (Silvermoon Guards/Scourge) have regions which triggers them to move forward. I was defending a spot just near such a region. Holding them back to defend was a big nuisance as they kept being issued to move forward.
Separating the Sun Well Waters into two different potions. Multiple times I found myself having to use it with full health or full mana just to get the other stat. Felt like a waste of such fine water!
Item tooltips don't follow the same formula. Some have the history text above the description while others have it below, and such. Unifying these would make it look more professional.
The Cloud ability for Dragonhawk Riders seems rather unnecessary as it is a very offensive ability for players whose mission is defense.

This is what I can think of right now. If I play it more I may drop in with additional points

Hope you find some of this useful!

Marshmalo · Jul 29, 2012

Make cinematics skippable with Esc. Perhaps if the majority of players choose to do it. As pleasant and informative as it may be; its still annoying after a few games.

I agree but this is very hard to do! I don't have the trigger skills to make it so when one player skips it still continues for everyone else. I will need to speak to a friend and see if he can help with this as even I am tired of seeing the same intro now lol

Workers on the Quel'Thalas side should be ordered to start mining automatically when the game starts. Also perhaps it would be a good idea to ping the locations. First time I played I didn't realize I had them before 10 minutes had passed!

Agreed will look at adding these next ver, undead players already have their workers automatically start mining. The Undead worker idle icon has been fixed this version so hopefully players shouldn't miss them now.

From what I gathered the NPC units (Silvermoon Guards/Scourge) have regions which triggers them to move forward. I was defending a spot just near such a region. Holding them back to defend was a big nuisance as they kept being issued to move forward.

To be honest the AI is not meant to be controled in this fashion, players arnt really supposed to hold them back then attack with a mass of free units. AI control was given encase players get boxed in by them and need them to move. They also help keep up the pace of battle during quiet points in the game.

The AI does need improvement though when bridges are destroyed they tend to get alittle... confused as to where to go. Triggering this is going to get very complex so I may ask someone for help with this.

Separating the Sun Well Waters into two different potions. Multiple times I found myself having to use it with full health or full mana just to get the other stat. Felt like a waste of such fine water!

hmm the problem is there's just not enough slots in the Elf Sanctum shop, I may put some separate mana and health potions available at RuneStones.

Item tooltips don't follow the same formula. Some have the history text above the description while others have it below, and such. Unifying these would make it look more professional.

Tooltips in general are complete mess! I'm looking at those atm.

The Cloud ability for Dragonhawk Riders seems rather unnecessary as it is a very offensive ability for players whose mission is defense.

Well, Spirit towers are very cheap and easy for undead players to build, in some games Scourge were turtling difficult choke points with towers so the Cloud ability seemed a fitting counter to this tactic. I agree in 90% of games cloud is redundant but I wanted Elves to at-least have the option.

Thanks for your suggestions!

Chizume · Jul 29, 2012

I'm glad I can help.

Marshmalo said:
To be honest the AI is not meant to be controled in this fashion, players arnt really supposed to hold them back then attack with a mass of free units. AI control was given encase players get boxed in by them and need them to move. They also help keep up the pace of battle during quiet points in the game.

This is a bit of an issue I believe. From my experience it has the opposite effect of what you want. The players currently face two options. Either let them run to death and feed the enemy heroes, or put them on hold. It is quite obvious which option the player chooses.

This resulted in an undead powerball both games I played. First minutes of the game the undead simply held back their units. As did I as I saw no point in our resources being used to suicide at their towers. The undead then used all of these units to overpower the elves right through the middle and the sides didn't matter too much at that point.

I guess more urgency on the undead side may fix this though. But personally I think being boxed in is part of the game. In worst case you could give important units a sort of no collision skill or item.

Marshmalo · Jul 31, 2012

Chizume said:
This is a bit of an issue I believe. From my experience it has the opposite effect of what you want. The players currently face two options. Either let them run to death and feed the enemy heroes, or put them on hold. It is quite obvious which option the player chooses.

hmm maybe I should increase aquistion range to max for AI units? This will make them automaticaly seek out and target enemy units making it very hard for players to hold them back.

The undead then used all of these units to overpower the elves right through the middle and the sides didn't matter too much at that point.

The middle definitly seems the best place for the undead to attack, but there approach can be seriously hindered by destroying the bridge near reds base. I have also been able to hold the centre by towering arround the exit to the central way gate, especialy good when using Anastaran/Highborn Elites due to their impressive tanking skills. When supported by Rangers archers it can be very difficult for the undead to break through.

Also alot of elf players seem to neglect the importance of the central Power generator, if you defend this the undead will not be able to get through the central waygate. I have seen some elf players loose the power gens even to AI (Brown)!

I guess more urgency on the undead side may fix this though. But personally I think being boxed in is part of the game. In worst case you could give important units a sort of no collision skill or item.

I guess we will have to wait and see how a decreased timer effects game play. The problem is I can not reduce the colision size of undead units as it means they will be able to slip through tree walls when only Elf/Forsaken units should be able to do that.

Chizume · Jul 31, 2012

You raise good points Marshmalo.

On the acquisition matter; increasing its range may not work as intended. I have attempted this before and the AI ended up running back and forth between their original position and the opponents after a few attacks. I may have done it wrong though so it could be worth a try.

How about adding living AI units to unit groups (I guess three different ones per faction, one group for one lane) and issue them to attack forward every now and then? Perhaps with every new spawn, or more often.

Btw, let me know through a PM or something if you plan on playing this and I'll gladly tag along

Marshmalo · Aug 3, 2012

Chizume said:
You raise good points Marshmalo.

On the acquisition matter; increasing its range may not work as intended. I have attempted this before and the AI ended up running back and forth between their original position and the opponents after a few attacks. I may have done it wrong though so it could be worth a try.

How about adding living AI units to unit groups (I guess three different ones per faction, one group for one lane) and issue them to attack forward every now and then? Perhaps with every new spawn, or more often.

Btw, let me know through a PM or something if you plan on playing this and I'll gladly tag along

Well I just tested out the aquisition range idea and unfortunatley it seems your right

The AI was exhibiting some very strange behaviour. I am unsure how to tackle this problem. There are already triggers in place that stop the AIs spawning units if their food inreases above 120 to stop people massing AI but maybe they are not working as intended.

What do you mean by "AI Living unit groups"? I dont understand sorry.

One thing to note is that warcraft 3 coding will only allow the ordering of 12 units max at once so you can't simply select all units in a large unit group and order them.

I am usualy on the Northrend EU server but sometimes go on Azeroth but would defo be interested in playing you, games always alot better with highly skilled players! My name is the same as on here: Marshmalo.

Codric · Aug 5, 2012

Nice map
I love these kinds of maps

Edit:
Rep

Goblinkingsp · Aug 5, 2012

Map is well made, however could use minor balancing tweaks and a few issues need to be fixed.
Still love it. <3

MogulKahn · Aug 22, 2012

I dont remember Noth in wc3 campaign ! But I do remember him in Naxxramas ! Can you explain it to me?

Mgeterno11 · Aug 22, 2012

Sorry but i cannot see your screenshots. I will play your map soon.

Marshmalo · Aug 23, 2012

Mgeterno11 said:
Sorry but i cannot see your screenshots. I will play your map soon.

I uploaded the new version and for some reason its broken all the formating and pictures!

This new version includes many bug fixes and new features, I believe this make is basicaly finished now as I can't see any further ways to improve it.

I dont remember Noth in wc3 campaign ! But I do remember him in Naxxramas ! Can you explain it to me?

There are many heroes that werent in the wc3 campaigns that were present at the fall of quel thalas. However I have taken liberties with the lore for balance reasons and because there are certain interesting characters that I wanted to include.

For example the sunwell is actualy located in silvermoon city for balance reasons and Alleria Windrunner is actualy still lost somewhere in Dreanor.

Reaper51 · Aug 26, 2012

Nice map but your thread is bugged and images don't show.

You have to delete all those "

Spiderligh · Aug 26, 2012

It's a good map, i have played with my friends.
The only thing that needs it's of a AI to the remaining slots...
And to alert to all of you: Alleria it's not dead, he appears in Northrend in the flying city of Dalaran.

Vengeancekael · Aug 26, 2012

I have fixed the description for you.

pred1980 · Aug 27, 2012

no screens?

blackhunterfox · Aug 29, 2012

Bravo!!!! best map both fun playing multiplayer and solo

useminename · Sep 1, 2012

very good map!

Spiderligh · Oct 27, 2012

I think that will be a good one, if you put one "Unique Barracks" for the sister, and if destroyed the sisters will become the Banshee.
And yes, the Unique Barracks will revive the sisters =)

Marshmalo · Oct 27, 2012

Spiderligh said:
I think that will be a good one, if you put one "Unique Barracks" for the sister, and if destroyed the sisters will become the Banshee.
And yes, the Unique Barracks will revive the sisters =)

Well Banshee Sisters are actually very powerful, it would be OP to allow players to train these at a barracks that's why they're limited to 4 summons only.
Their ethereal form makes them resistant to damage and charm combined makes them much more powerful than most people realize when used correctly.

BlueChampion · Oct 30, 2012

marshmalo, please nerf anti air skill which deal 1800 dmg over 3 sec to air units on the big area because its fucking OP, that makes ud air(wyrms)/aa(gargo) are totally useless and thats why elves air can fuck the dark side easy... i suggest sth like 500 dmg over 5 sec... 100 dmg / sec for 5 sec

Marshmalo · Oct 31, 2012

BlueChampion said:
marshmalo, please nerf anti air skill which deal 1800 dmg over 3 sec to air units on the big area because its fucking OP, that makes ud air(wyrms)/aa(gargo) are totally useless and thats why elves air can fuck the dark side easy... i suggest sth like 500 dmg over 5 sec... 100 dmg / sec for 5 sec

Hey Blue!

The Elven Ultimates are very powerful, I know this but they need to be, Undead can build massive armies really fast and cheeply, the elves have to defend with much less units. Without their OP ultimates the elves wouldnt stand a chance.

Undead can build an Abomination for 110gold and takes 13 seconds to build. Elves Elite Highborn costs 225gold and takes 20 secs to build.

In most of the games I play Elves loose, I don;t think elves need nerfing anymore. However if you still think elves are OP I invite you to play vs me, if you can win with me playing Arthas I'll consider nerfing elves

BlueChampion · Nov 9, 2012

i dont say about all ultimates, i say about this one, which makes ud air & ANTI AIR units totally useless, thats why i can fuck alone 4 ud players when im playing elf...................................................................... highborn sucks strongly, only archers are good ground elf unit, the best elf units combination is a mass hawks + gryphons + priest IT FUCK ALL UD BC THEY CANT MAKE AA BC OP STAR FALL FUCK ALL THEIR AA IN 3 SEC..............

Marshmalo · Nov 11, 2012

BlueChampion I have seen the way you play as undead, you mass nothing but air and expect to win...when you don't win you rage quit...

Why do you think I have added defenses like Shield Generators, Gates, destructable bridges and tree walls if you can just bypass it all by mass air? Undead air should be used as support, THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO DESTROY ENTIRE ELF ARMIES ALONE!

Undead players should be using staff of silence and Maexa's web to stop Rangers casting ultimates, obviously the undead players you fucked were noobs. If i implemented what you are suggesting it would ruin the game.

I find the fact that you've changed your 5 rating to a 1 because I won't make the changes you want very disappointing, but I think that says more about you than it does my map.
I got nothing more to say to you I'm done talking to you.

BlueChampion · Nov 11, 2012

man i rage quit when map is fucking imba, i noticed that u added new more imba archers for elves, now this map totally sucks and the ,,win timer" is bugged. Do u rmember how i owned attackers useing elves air? now attackers have no chances, 0 balance, thats why i changed my rating... u says that attackers got cheaper units, but u didnt wrote that defenders got 3 x more mines at the start

belive me, now this map is TOTALLY UNBALANCED i dont care about graphic, for me the most important is a game mechanic, if it sucks - map sucks...

BlueChampion · Nov 13, 2012

okay, i just suggest to play ur map, me with my friends who play strategy well on elves vs u and ur friends on the ud, ok?

Spiderligh · Nov 17, 2012

BlueChampion said:
okay, i just suggest to play ur map, me with my friends who play strategy well on elves vs u and ur friends on the ud, ok?

Hi BlueChampiom, i have read everything, so i'm going to put some facts here:

The three sisters are LIMITED, so, if you lost your ranger you lost EVERYTHING and become one attacker.

The Undead are BETTER than the Elves, i swear by everything that i have difficult even with strategy using EVERYTHING that i got to defend, if i call my brother we can make one super strategy/tatic but the undead is too powerful.

What you complain about?! You have a lot of time to do attacks, and you begin with a godlike defense and a have a god spawn that won of every single wave of the elves.

The elves AIR it's not my type, so because of this i use for "scout".

What happens when you kill one sister? SHE BECAME ONE FUCKING UNDEAD!

There is one in everything:

You are a friggin noob, that can't use strategy and advantage at your side, and use only little dragons and gargo(I forget the name) to the army, one person can simply put a simply tatic of using the "counter" of this unit.

And i give 5/5 to the map, great example of Campaign Altered Melee map =)

lochmet · May 3, 2013

This may be a late response in relation to the update time, but this map is excellent. It doesn't need heaps of custom models, skins etc, to look and play this well. I don't know if Marshmalo is still an active user, but I would pay for AI system to be included for the elves if possible. (I do not know much about world editing systems). 4/5

Human_Alliance · Nov 4, 2013

Death Adder · Nov 25, 2013

Great map 4/5

Feels like air units are a bit out of place when there is such a solid terrain.

Like someone mentioned i also think there should be a max cap on towers.

StoPCampinGn00b · Sep 5, 2014

Really fun melee feeling map. I've played it on Battle.net a few days ago. Hmm, 4/5!

Adunai · Sep 30, 2014

I didn't even know this map was made by Marshmalo =]

Marwick Calixto · Oct 21, 2015

Auto Attack? Great game

Hey, so i've been playing this map for quite sometime and i have done most of the ways of playing it but i noticed that when one of the Rangers become forsaken and spawn at Arthas' stronghold they are immediately attacked by his forces even if the -punish command was not given. I'm using ver. 4.8 by the way. Well aside from this it's a great map, so much hours used up playing it and i've been recommending my friends to play this so that we could play together. Keep up the great work, can't wait for more versions and maps from you Marshmalo :goblin_good_job:

Siege of Quel'Thalas LR 3.6

Siege of Quel'Thalas LR 3.6 (Map)

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