Peel

Moderator · Jul 26, 2013

^Orcnet

^{00:04, 8th Aug 2013}

Comment

Review

Map Approved

Peel (No Version/s Stated)

Rate	Score	Percent	Letter
	5/5	91-100	A

Rate	Score	Percent	Letter
	4/5	81-90%	B

Rate	Score	Percent	Letter
	3/5	75-80%	C

Rate	Score	Percent	Letter
	2/5	70-74%	D

Rate	Score	Percent	Letter
	1/5	50-69%	F

Overview:

Gameplay

"The map has a feel of both maze and tactical design would I find it very amusing, although the creep camps stationed for all team bases is a bit weak in some point, it would be wise if they are more bolstered in red level, because playing this in either computer or human player standards, both decisions will creep out the no-player base creep camps instead this depends on a few player involved in-game and not a full house."

Terrain

"Terrain as I can say is a bit symmetric, although I understand your idea of more into the game cosmetics than terrain overview, I would suggest scraping out some of the spam-looking doodads across the map(bookshelves, torches, etc.) that would only increase map file size and doesn't really do much decor across the map, still its also fine if you could moderately enhance your tile variation palette skills once in a while, because such a idea won't be needing you to decorate tons of doodads."

Management

"Overall its a good map and I must say its also useful and hopefully I suggest melee players and onward battlefield strategists must play this map."

Total Score:

Rate	Score	Percent	Letter
	8/15	77%	C

normalice · Jul 26, 2013

abgm said:
the quality is really affected, is like you did it on hurry

the tile set,the terrain, the rocks,the enviroment, also the minimap seems messy
and the bigger is the map, the bigger is the problem

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/maps-564/frozen-deeps-238330/

is not to show off, but maybe you can learn somenthing of my experience in underground theme

sorry i saw better work from you, and this is a really step back my friend(i recognice underground is imposible without some tricks... same thing with dungeon, i still working to do a beauty dungeon)

i sugest to improve it

I went more for function than for looks - and spent days planning and implementing the layout. I never really know what to do about the way a map looks. Anyway, any large map with an acceptable number of neutral buildings is going to have a cluttered looking minimap - add to that the fact that I went for a more "organic" feel to it and of course it looks cluttered. In my opinion it looks "okay" but I admittedly don't really care what it looks like - I'm more interested in how it plays.

normalice · Jul 26, 2013

abgm said:
this comment really dissapoints me, there a lot of ways to improve it with easy tricks, tricks that someone with your skill will learn really fast, but is like your are closing to posible improves...
the rocks, the tile use, the enviroment it can be really much better...

well is your map in the end, so good luck

Oh, don't get me wrong - I'll consider it, but I just spent 6 days toiling over this map, getting it exactly the way I want it. I need a break from it for a while. Maybe on Monday I'll come back to it aiming to improve the aesthetics. But for melee maps, aesthetics are secondary to function. I know the sentiments of this site seems to be the opposite, but this is for people who play melee maps, not just look at them. I play all the time and the only thing about the way a map looks that I even notice is "where are the trees, where is an expansion, how do i get to the enemy base". Artistic placement of doodads and tileset cohesion goes completely unnoticed when you're in the thick of a competitive game.

That's kind of why I stopped reviewing, by the way. I've pointed out a number of game-breaking flaws for many maps, but they get approved anyway because they look good. Why does it matter what a map looks like if no one can play on it?

normalice · Jul 27, 2013

abgm said:
there are to few underground maps, rep to your work

oh, it isn't actually underground - it just uses the underground tileset. An underground map is not suitable for melee, as it doesn't allow air units and doesn't have the day/night cycle giving an unfair advantage to night elves.

I merely looked through the available tilesets for one I hadn't used yet, and that's what I picked. I like the way the natural cliffs look.

StoPCampinGn00b · Jul 27, 2013

normalice said:
oh, it isn't actually underground - it just uses the underground tileset. An underground map is not suitable for melee, as it doesn't allow air units and doesn't have the day/night cycle giving an unfair advantage to night elves.

I merely looked through the available tilesets for one I hadn't used yet, and that's what I picked. I like the way the natural cliffs look.

That makes my underground map fail. Good job on making many melee maps.

normalice · Jul 27, 2013

abgm said:
underround no-buildable tiles are nice to use, but only one buildable is to few

huh. I didn't think that was a big deal. I guess I could just change the tileset..

you know what you didnt do.. a city map, those are easy, houses, tiles as bricks, all flat
cathedrals, dalaran towers, dalaran citadel, doodads have the most use in cities.

Empire is on cityscape, I'm pretty sure. If not, Hegemony uses cityscape and Sunken Ruins.

ugrilainen · Jul 27, 2013

I'll check that peel map when it will be finalized or maybe you want me to try it already just to give insights on the player pov?

normalice · Jul 27, 2013

ugrilainen said:
I'll check that peel map when it will be finalized or maybe you want me to try it already just to give insights on the player pov?

it would be appreciated

ugrilainen · Jul 27, 2013

ok i usually test the map first with computer opponents with full vision on to see how it goes. When I feel the map is good, I try with real players.

So here I did the "alone with computer pre test". This one looks promising, here is what i would update :

1- I agree make it 8 ways and remove the 4 players on the periphery of the map.

2- Goblin Lab is probably the most important neutral building in ffa early game. If you dont get a shredder while other opponents gets one, you are doomed.
On your map - if we consider it 8 ways - the 4 in corner pos have easy access to the lab, while those on 3/6/9/12 pos have no access to it. I would suggest to put the lab in the corner tavern position. Remove those tavern and just keep the one in mid (see point 3 about that)

3- pos 3/6/9/12 have even more disavantage with an uneasy access to the 4 mid mines while corner pos have an easy access to it. Really too much imbalance between pos. Maybe you put 8 mines in middle with equal access? This way everyone can have equal access to mid mine

4- position of merc camp with banshees bugs me, not sure why. Maybe put them in the former lab position? Or maybe put some trees around so we can walk by. It feels very naked in that part

5- The red creeps should be accessible by foot. COuld be epic creeping here. Here again it promotes air army to be able to creep those.

That was my advises. I certainly like all the rest about the map, it is very creative

normalice · Jul 28, 2013

ugrilainen said:
ok i usually test the map first with computer opponents with full vision on to see how it goes. When I feel the map is good, I try with real players.

So here I did the "alone with computer pre test". This one looks promising, here is what i would update :

1- I agree make it 8 ways and remove the 4 players on the periphery of the map.

that's not a bad idea. I'm hesitant, but willing..

2- Goblin Lab is probably the most important neutral building in ffa early game. If you dont get a shredder while other opponents gets one, you are doomed.
On your map - if we consider it 8 ways - the 4 in corner pos have easy access to the lab, while those on 3/6/9/12 pos have no access to it. I would suggest to put the lab in the corner tavern position. Remove those tavern and just keep the one in mid (see point 3 about that)

3- pos 3/6/9/12 have even more disavantage with an uneasy access to the 4 mid mines while corner pos have an easy access to it. Really too much imbalance between pos. Maybe you put 8 mines in middle with equal access? This way everyone can have equal access to mid mine

Hm. The intent was to provide a minor advantage to each position. The periphials had easy access to the lab.

The 3/6/9/12 have easy access to fountains, an extra expansion (even though it is guarded by red creeps), and they get their own trees (the other bases share trees with an enemy) - perhaps I overvalued the fountains?

And the remaining bases have a somewhat easily defensible base combined with easy access to mines guarded by green creeps - however the balance of this whole thing is isolation. The mines in the middle are close to each other, and with eight people vying for four mines, there's bound to be some confrontation. Meanwhile the people located at the 3/6/9/12 have almost nothing (except the fountains) around them that could make an attack more convenient.

But the theme is that every base has 2-3 easily accessible expansion mines nearby, it's just that the 3/6/9/12 positions don't have one guarded by green creeps.

4- position of merc camp with banshees bugs me, not sure why. Maybe put them in the former lab position? Or maybe put some trees around so we can walk by. It feels very naked in that part

good idea. I'm maxed out of trees/destructibles, but I'll put something else in there to make it look more natural. The banshees are guarding because it's a merc camp - you should risk losing one of your army if you are to gain a new one (that's just my 'style').

5- The red creeps should be accessible by foot. COuld be epic creeping here. Here again it promotes air army to be able to creep those.

the spider camp is only accessible by air because the drops are very lucrative - people must go out of their way to get to it, and not just take it as a part of their natural creeping. This, by the way, is the same sort of philosophy I had for the map "Power Trip," but on a much smaller scale - only four camps are like this for this map, whereas half the camps are that way on Power Trip.

ugrilainen · Jul 28, 2013

fair enough

I will just insist on the labs. Getting a lab close door is really an enormous advantage in ffa. I cannot stress that enough. The way it is shaped now will just get the players complaining about it. It allows you to tech faster, to just have 4food on wood.

At high level, the guy with the shredder will pwn the guy without one every time. This ressource should be equally accessible to any player. The rest I will trust you with your skills

normalice · Jul 28, 2013

ugrilainen said:
fair enough

I will just insist on the labs. Getting a lab close door is really an enormous advantage in ffa. I cannot stress that enough. The way it is shaped now will just get the players complaining about it. It allows you to tech faster, to just have 4food on wood.

At high level, the guy with the shredder will pwn the guy without one every time. This ressource should be equally accessible to any player. The rest I will trust you with your skills

hm. what if I swap the shop and lab locations, and then replace two of the center mines with more labs?

ugrilainen · Jul 28, 2013

normalice said:
hm. what if I swap the shop and lab locations, and then replace two of the center mines with more labs?

I would need to see it to be sure what you mean but clearly having the shop at lab's place seems better to me.

If you keep the same layout you should make sure that the path to the shop is not buildable. Orc or humans could build 5-6 towers there and deny access to the shop to anyone else. I would suggest some large walkable water ground or some market place like ground at the entrance of each shop paths (sorry Im no professionnal map maker, just a ground you cannot build onto - dunno the terms)

If you remove two middle mines to put labs, maybe you could increase the other two mid mines gold count to 25k and make it red creep camp with something kinda badass (some red creep camp like on raging stream on the mid mines). PLayers would fight for these mines and creepjack each other.

normalice · Jul 28, 2013

ugrilainen said:
I would need to see it to be sure what you mean but clearly having the shop at lab's place seems better to me.

If you keep the same layout you should make sure that the path to the shop is not buildable. Orc or humans could build 5-6 towers there and deny access to the shop to anyone else. I would suggest some large walkable water ground or some market place like ground at the entrance of each shop paths (sorry Im no professionnal map maker, just a ground you cannot build onto - dunno the terms)

If you remove two middle mines to put labs, maybe you could increase the other two mid mines gold count to 25k and make it red creep camp with something kinda badass (some red creep camp like on raging stream on the mid mines). PLayers would fight for these mines and creepjack each other.

I just made a shorter path from the 3/6/9/12 positions to the labs. Not sure why I didn't do that in the first place, actually..

ugrilainen · Jul 29, 2013

normalice said:
I just made a shorter path from the 3/6/9/12 positions to the labs. Not sure why I didn't do that in the first place, actually..

Hey I checked it. I liked the banshees merc camp, looks nice now in that part.

For labs, it is better. I am not sure if you plan to make it a 12 ways or a 8 ways map, so I am not sure on how to comment it.

if 12 ways : the 4 corners position are really favored. More space and direct access to lab.

If 8 ways it is quite good.

I am curious about this green kobold camp surrounded by 2 red creeps and the orange but very strong lab creep. Maybe you could swap green kobold camp and laboratory and force the 4 corner position to walk through the Wildkins to access lab? I dont know you have better ideas

normalice · Jul 29, 2013

ugrilainen said:
I am curious about this green kobold camp surrounded by 2 red creeps and the orange but very strong lab creep. Maybe you could swap green kobold camp and laboratory and force the 4 corner position to walk through the Wildkins to access lab? I dont know you have better ideas

yeah... that's weird, I know... It seemed like an opportune spot for a creep camp, but I didn't want to make it a powerful creep because I was light on green creep camps. Yet everything around it needed to be powerful, because everything around it was valuable territory that needed to be guarded by powerful creeps.. So I just made it green and had it drop a level 1 power up - that way it doesn't take up inventory space to kill it, and it's still useful to kill at any level.

And unfortunately it wouldn't really work as an 8-player map. The 'balance' depends on the corner bases and the 3/6/9/12 bases being in a position to fight over natural expansions. If I remove the corner bases then the 3/6/9/12 bases have too much of an advantage - the corners are there to keep them in check, and the 'inner' bases are there to keep the corner bases in check - additionally, the close proximity to the lab is supposed to compensate for the fact that the corner bases are effectively surrounded by up to five enemies!

Also, keep in mind the fountains overlook the corner bases, which potentially gives a huge scouting advantage. I actually suspect the corner bases will lose more often than not, but that's just my theory. Honestly, I think this map is "ready for human testing" - it's hard to be certain of any theoretical advantage at this point. I've made a number of 'quirky' maps and there's always some 'obvious' advantage, but then I watch people play on it and the lesser skilled player never wins due to that advantage... Unfortunately, it's hard to test maps with live players these days :-/

The lab thing was an excellent call, though :-D. Thanks for pointing it out.

ugrilainen · Jul 29, 2013

Ok normalice.

For human testing I will try this week but it is dificult for 12 players maps. I can host a 12 players official blizzard map easily during the week but custom map visibility hosted by bots is reduced so it is hard to fill out a 12 players games during weekdays.

On weekends I will have more players. I will do like splatter and create it when we have the most players. Then I will link some replays to you so you can see it in action.
thanks

normalice · Jul 29, 2013

ugrilainen said:
Ok normalice.

For human testing I will try this week but it is dificult for 12 players maps. I can host a 12 players official blizzard map easily during the week but custom map visibility hosted by bots is reduced so it is hard to fill out a 12 players games during weekdays.

On weekends I will have more players. I will do like splatter and create it when we have the most players. Then I will link some replays to you so you can see it in action.
thanks

Cool cool. I'll try to come up with an 8-player map, though.. Hegemony was the only "inspired" 8-player map that I've had. It's tricky to do something clever on purpose, but i'll give it a shot anyway

Also, I'll modify hegemony so the terrain around the waygates are unbuildable, if that's of any interest to you..

ugrilainen · Jul 29, 2013

normalice said:
Cool cool. I'll try to come up with an 8-player map, though.. Hegemony was the only "inspired" 8-player map that I've had. It's tricky to do something clever on purpose, but i'll give it a shot anyway

Also, I'll modify hegemony so the terrain around the waygates are unbuildable, if that's of any interest to you..

I'll check it out.

Also note that a 8 players map does not have to be a huge one. See Deadlock or even Market Square they are decent sized map but not too big.

The best ffa map is usually playable with 8 players or 4 players indistincly. I mean you can play 4 or 8 on it and enjoy it.

If the 8 players map is too big, it can only be played with 8 players. That is teh case for hegemony i feel.

As the standard ffa game consist in 4 players, it is good for a map to be versatile. We like 8 players map because there is something random about positions. SOme will spawn surrounded, some will have pos luck. That is part of ffa. But if the map is too big, it is not fun anymore.

Just wanted to point that out in case you plan on making 8 ways map for ffa in the future

(i hope you will!)

Orcnet · Aug 7, 2013

Map approved, see moderator comment on top.

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