Gatekeepers

Nudl9 · Aug 15, 2020

This is your best map so far.
Layout is somewhere between AZ and NI.
Creep routes seems a little wierd, i think you'd have to play it to figure it out.
Getting people to test maps with unintuitive layouts can be hard.

It could use some trees on the cliffs.
Maybe a little more decorations, it's very much trees, rocks and water here.
Good enough for a release though.

Don't know if that's a banshee i see, but having drops on a banshee is kind of a "no-no" rule.
You don't want to get gutted from losing an item.
Banshees will attempt possession when below 25%, so you can play around it.
It's used in a zone where creepjacks are less likely though so i don't see players losing units to banshee that often.

Folderz · Aug 15, 2020

Nudl9 said:
This is your best map so far.

I agree. Some changes are coming in still. Yea banshees are bit irritating and random in melee.

mafe · Aug 22, 2020

Some notes/suggestions for changes of the current version:
1. The rock golem spot in the east is more favorable for AoW-creeping than the one in the west, due to tree location.
2. The (semi-)island expansions should probably have better antiair capabilities. As it stands, gargs can kill them while receiving barely any damage in return.
3. The creepcamp on the island (lvl 2 charged) does not really seem to be worth the effort of buying a boat early on, if that's what you were intending.
4. I would have expected a tome as a secondary drop on various on most of the orange camps that currently dont have one.
5. At the expansions, it would enough to just have the berserkers not on camp stance. This would make it less likely for the camp to aggro by accident.
6. There are no medium armor creeps at all at the creepspots close to main bases. Relative to standard maps, this slows down creeping speed for melee units and increases creeping speed for ranged units.

Folderz · Aug 22, 2020

Big thanks @mafe! This is just what this boat map needs. 100% well thought out stuff.

WolfFarkas · Aug 22, 2020

well Nudl9 and mafe covered the main points, and also they have more experience than me,

I like the map, for a boat map, it feels good. very creative
I like the expandings of the map both the first and the island one,
I like the goblin merchants positions. well conected to both the main base and the expo.
Mercs. positions are interesting, they are far when I always put them near base. I like that
I think is a clever idea to not have gob labs, so zeppelings wont compite with boats, even if that means loose zappers and shedder, I think is better as it is with no gob labs.

I think in the small circles there can be small amount of wood, to limit scouting a bit.
and the river areas, I think you can hide the boat there, but my point is, it feels odd to have those areas as a playable area for boats, I was thinking perhaps limit those areas with rocks, sunken ruins pillars. is to limit the playable area so players wont go there. but is nothing important. I am just fanatic of limiting playable areas.

Folderz · Aug 22, 2020

@WolfFarkas Really good that you brought this up because empty deep water areas might be important for boat maps.

Large water areas are like burrows for peons to boats. You have some safe place where to throw your boat when it gets pressured on. This kind of comfort encourages boat use.

You can also escape there with your hero and troops but it is generally win for the enemy if your army isn't doing anything important. It's also risky to hang around over deep water because air unit can destroy your boat and kill everyone inside.

Awesome that you liked so many things used on map.

WolfFarkas · Aug 23, 2020

SaveHighKing said:
@WolfFarkas Really good that you brought this up because empty deep water areas might be important for boat maps.

Large water areas are like burrows for peons to boats. You have some safe place where to throw your boat when it gets pressured on. This kind of comfort encourages boat use.

You can also escape there with your hero and troops but it is generally win for the enemy if your army isn't doing anything important. It's also risky to hang around over deep water because air unit can destroy your boat and kill everyone inside.

Awesome that you liked so many things used on map.

ah so it is to hide the boat, didnt know that, maybe some people is not used to boats, like me, so is good to point that hint.

Folderz · Aug 25, 2020

Polar bear guarding goblin merchant can swim and it is possible for players to attack it with air unit and make the item be lost in deepwater. I wont change anything here still because players can perform interesting bear pulls over the water if they feel like doing fancy tricks.

Vimeo: Bear Trick

Other cool strategy I call the late boat strat. Here you creep double greens and go for the mine. After the mine you buy boat and go creep tuskkarr island camp where you can heal up your units with lesser heal rune.

I added some decorations to empty parts of the map to get the real kingdom border area feeling going.

Mr.Henci · Aug 29, 2020

Hey, here is some feedback from a quick look in editor!

- The map file is .w3m while most of the standart maps are .w3x (This can be changed when saving the map by choosing War3 - Expansion option, see picture bellow)

- The pathing seems nice, everything in order
- Some creep camps are placed in the middle of a road, meaing they will agro bypassing units, which should not happen.
- Nice idea with the boats, but it seems the only advantage using it would be an endgame expo + 1 short cut, which is not enough imo.
- Endless tree line which goes to the border of the map can be usually abused and should be avoided in your future maps. (Use cliffs, water or undestructible doodads instead)
- Drops and creep spots seems ok in general, maybe add few tomes to lover lvl orange creep camps.
- Natural Expo is hard to get and hold onto, which could be a problem for some matchups.
- Good call on using blockers on map borders.
- While in general the map is on par with Blizz level of detail, some areas seem bland and could use some love.
- A lot of creeps are near spawn, which could lead to stale game.

All in all, the map is ok with some nice ideas implemented into it, my only real concern is its layout which could lead to a passive games, all the other things are a minor/personal flaws.

Folderz · Aug 29, 2020

@Mr.Henci yes map should be saved on w3x. I'll consider all the other points you mentioned too. Very helpfull ty!

WolfFarkas · Aug 31, 2020

Mr.Henci said:
Hey, here is some feedback from a quick look in editor!

- The map file is .w3m while most of the standart maps are .w3x (This can be changed when saving the map by choosing War3 - Expansion option, see picture bellow)

View attachment 363057

- The pathing seems nice, everything in order
- Some creep camps are placed in the middle of a road, meaing they will agro bypassing units, which should not happen.
- Nice idea with the boats, but it seems the only advantage using it would be an endgame expo + 1 short cut, which is not enough imo.
1- Endless tree line which goes to the border of the map can be usually abused and should be avoided in your future maps. (Use cliffs, water or undestructible doodads instead)
2- Drops and creep spots seems ok in general, maybe add few tomes to lover lvl orange creep camps.
3- Natural Expo is hard to get and hold onto, which could be a problem for some matchups.
- Good call on using blockers on map borders.
- While in general the map is on par with Blizz level of detail, some areas seem bland and could use some love.
4- A lot of creeps are near spawn, which could lead to stale game.

All in all, the map is ok with some nice ideas implemented into it, my only real concern is its layout which could lead to a passive games, all the other things are a minor/personal flaws.

1) It is ideal to develop a map in a way you can not reach camara borders with land units or by logging trees, camara borders breaks inmersion, thats why maps are tend to be surround by cliffs, or deep water.
3) thats an important issue, HU like to fast expand with militia, I think it should be militia posible.
4) this one is hard, it is ideal to design the creeping route with the objetive of get to the center like
perma L4 in the center, 2 early greens going to the center, or Henci trick 1 shop 1 marketplace in the center, passive play is very penaliced.
hacking options are also desired, like steal or hack enemy creep route.

LifeguardLeroy · Sep 6, 2020

Seen so many Blizzard maps where the expansions used zeppelins too get too but not ships, I think because for some reason the A.I. barely knows how too use zeppelins and can't use ships well at all. This looks really nice need more boat melee maps!

Folderz · Sep 7, 2020

@LifeguardLeroy thanks! Boats are sailing to more better waters with this summer's patch changes. It's exciting to see where they end up.

mafe · Sep 11, 2020

Looking at the current version:
-Getting just a lvl 1 item from 3xlvl 3 creeps feels somewhat underwhelming. With several safe creepcamps near the main bases (which I dont mind on their own), it would be good to give the players an incentive to out onto the map early, to get contested camps before their opponent does.
-It's probably been there before, but I only noticed it now: There are several open areas "behind" some creepamps (or the shipyards) where there is no reason to ever go there. You normally dont see this on ladder maps. It surely isnt a gameplay issue, but it might look weird to some people.

Folderz · Sep 12, 2020

@mafe
1. Would like to have additional orange midmap camp. It should be better for overall play but it really feels like the enemy can run at me so fast where ever I go creep as the camps are now.
2. yea these areas are probably useless for serious play but just for entertainment Im thinking like hiding workshop behind shipyard and pop out some surprise tanks from boats strats

Im open for changes. Really good

mafe · Oct 22, 2020

Approved based on the results of the recent melee mapping contest: Hive Cup 2020: Melee Mapping Contest #6 - Results

I see you tagged me in the last post, I must have missed that. I think the mid creeps are ok now. For further improvements, the reviews of the judges should be helpful. Dont have anthing eles to add atm.

Gatekeepers

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