The Future of Warcraft

[interviewquestion]

imo Chris Metzen is a good example of why the Old Guard isn't necessarily always going to be the best. If Chris Metzen retired 10 years ago and someone else handed in the same modern Metzen stories, we would be appalled by the lack of imagination and depth of the story.

Not to say he wasn't awesome, but clearly his talent was aging well.

old blizzard - stars like diablo, diablo 2, warcraft 3, wow
new blizzards - awful expansions for wow (yet most online players, yet twice as lower next to 2005's or so score), failure of diablo 3 (playable 2 years after release only, with 10 patches), hots (unsuccessful dota killer)
well, its pretty much dead. just like ea games - earns money, nothing more

Blizzard North is long gone. And I wouldn't say any of the WoW expansions are "awful" except with WoD. HOTS was never going to be a dota killer. It's just a small game against 2 behemoths that have saturated the market.

 

[nhammen]

I have a question and suggestion after reading The Hive Workshop Wish-list:

1- When you guys refer to integrating W3 into Battle.net App do you mean how Dota2 is doing map browsing/installation if so i have a concern that they would censor our maps due to custom maps using copyright material in some maps(the current problem with releasing HotS editor)
2- When you guys refer to multiple maps you mean lets say we have a RPG we create 1 main map where you level up and have 10 more for dungeon so while 1 player is in main map others can jump in dungeon maps and return to main again without leaving game?

Suggestions:
3- New stats system either in future patches or if they decide to make HD version but i think that would bring so much balance to the game mostly for custom games(strength for damage, agility for as/ms/dodge/avoid/etc, dexterity for critical damage, intellect for spell damage/mana, stamina for defense/health)
4- Increase map size from 256x256 to at least 512x512 which if im not wrong is possible even now
5- Possibility to rejoin a game after crash/disconnect something like dota2 allows keeping your progress where you left for custom maps
6- To bring new people maybe make all the warcraft games till Reign of Chaos as campaingh in war3 being able to live the whole story in better graphics and compatibility

 

[Dr Super Good]

1- When you guys refer to integrating W3 into Battle.net App do you mean how Dota2 is doing map browsing/installation if so i have a concern that they would censor our maps due to custom maps using copyright material in some maps(the current problem with releasing HotS editor)

We mean integrating it into the Blizzard (former BattleNet) application. Like how StarCraft II, Diablo III etc are. This means that you can launch the game from the app and when logged in to the multiplayer you can see and talk to your Blizzard friends while they see you are playing Warcraft III from Diablo III, StarCraft II, World of Warcraft etc.

2- When you guys refer to multiple maps you mean lets say we have a RPG we create 1 main map where you level up and have 10 more for dungeon so while 1 player is in main map others can jump in dungeon maps and return to main again without leaving game?

That is outright impossible. Only streaming state games can do that, which is how World of Warcraft and Diablo III work.

3- New stats system either in future patches or if they decide to make HD version but i think that would bring so much balance to the game mostly for custom games(strength for damage, agility for as/ms/dodge/avoid/etc, dexterity for critical damage, intellect for spell damage/mana, stamina for defense/health)

Or they could remove the stat system seeing how it does not really enhance gameplay at all. That is why Heroes of the Storm has no stat system at all.

4- Increase map size from 256x256 to at least 512x512 which if im not wrong is possible even now

Currently the maximum is 480*480... The game is not designed for such large maps so inherently performs badly. Most people will never manage to use a 480*480 map as it is so big. The number of maps which have fully used a 480*480 map can probably be counted with fingers.

5- Possibility to rejoin a game after crash/disconnect something like dota2 allows keeping your progress where you left for custom maps

Only possible with streaming state games. Hence why locally changing maps is also not possible. DotA2 uses a streaming state model, which is common place for RPGs. In such a model all state is computed by a central server with clients receiving a roughly synced view of that state. This strongly contrasts RTS models of multiplayer where all clients keep track of all the game state at the same time and a server, the host, coordinates and synchronizes the player commands between all clients. Streaming state models cannot be used for RTS games as they need really expensive servers then and a lot of bandwidth to sync large amounts of state. RTS models of sync require the current game state be rebuilt before play can resume which requires fast forwarding a replay until in sync (how Heroes of the Storm does it) or getting a client to save, upload that save to the joining client and then loading that save all of which is impossible due to inaccurate saves and clients possibly not being able to upload files.

 

[CAAentertainment]

Or they could remove the stat system seeing how it does not really enhance gameplay at all. That is why Heroes of the Storm has no stat system at all.

Removing the stat system would be a terrible idea, as the system had bee there so long that many, many RPG maps use it. So remove the stat system would make those many RPG, and Campaigns, unplayable.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Removing the stat system would be a terrible idea, as the system had bee there so long that many, many RPG maps use it. So remove the stat system would make those many RPG, and Campaigns, unplayable.

It is as good an idea as extending it though, which was the point to be made.

Rather they add ability to modify unit properties with triggers, that way future maps do not need to depend on the stat system.

 

[karaulov]

Only possible with streaming state games. Hence why locally changing maps is also not possible. DotA2 uses a streaming state model, which is common place for RPGs. In such a model all state is computed by a central server with clients receiving a roughly synced view of that state. This strongly contrasts RTS models of multiplayer where all clients keep track of all the game state at the same time and a server, the host, coordinates and synchronizes the player commands between all clients. Streaming state models cannot be used for RTS games as they need really expensive servers then and a lot of bandwidth to sync large amounts of state. RTS models of sync require the current game state be rebuilt before play can resume which requires fast forwarding a replay until in sync (how Heroes of the Storm does it) or getting a client to save, upload that save to the joining client and then loading that save all of which is impossible due to inaccurate saves and clients possibly not being able to upload files.

But if dump all objects,orders,game data after crash to disk, and load it after reconnect? (or just auto save game, and load game after reconnect to host)
Too impossible ?

 

[nhammen]

We mean integrating it into the Blizzard (former BattleNet) application. Like how StarCraft II, Diablo III etc are. This means that you can launch the game from the app and when logged in to the multiplayer you can see and talk to your Blizzard friends while they see you are playing Warcraft III from Diablo III, StarCraft II, World of Warcraft etc.

That is outright impossible. Only streaming state games can do that, which is how World of Warcraft and Diablo III work.

Or they could remove the stat system seeing how it does not really enhance gameplay at all. That is why Heroes of the Storm has no stat system at all.

Currently the maximum is 480*480... The game is not designed for such large maps so inherently performs badly. Most people will never manage to use a 480*480 map as it is so big. The number of maps which have fully used a 480*480 map can probably be counted with fingers.

Only possible with streaming state games. Hence why locally changing maps is also not possible. DotA2 uses a streaming state model, which is common place for RPGs. In such a model all state is computed by a central server with clients receiving a roughly synced view of that state. This strongly contrasts RTS models of multiplayer where all clients keep track of all the game state at the same time and a server, the host, coordinates and synchronizes the player commands between all clients. Streaming state models cannot be used for RTS games as they need really expensive servers then and a lot of bandwidth to sync large amounts of state. RTS models of sync require the current game state be rebuilt before play can resume which requires fast forwarding a replay until in sync (how Heroes of the Storm does it) or getting a client to save, upload that save to the joining client and then loading that save all of which is impossible due to inaccurate saves and clients possibly not being able to upload files.

In the statement says: "ideally, patching/installation/installing maps would all be simplified." im referring to maps installation/management if its like dota2 maps being hosted on their server that could prove problems with copyright if someone makes map with a Disney character they can be sued (current problem with HotS editor) so i prefer if maps are managed manually

Well im not familiar with this streaming state game so ill believe you and ill just say Warcraft 4 or release HotS editor and move there both sounds good to me id play custom maps anyway (ill run the story 1-2 times )

Ive seen couple maps with 2 maps that load codes from 1 to 2nd so you can progress to higher lvl Korean rpgs of course now that map size being raised again i think that map boundary's should to

Well as im not that big of coder i cant say much about stats dont know which is better but if he have built-in stats system similar to wow with attack/spell power and critical bases on stats would simplify a lot of work for modders not having to code all that JUST MY OPINION



Something else i tough even if we cant use multiple maps for dungeon higher bounder's can provide similar effect have main map up to 300x300 and use rest for dungeons(in case its and rpg)

And another feature i think would be nice a players size increase to at least 16 people which i think is reasonable with current internet speed now days.
On the same note i think if its possible to make computers not use player slots because ive seen many maps that uses half slots to make team defense maps where you have 3x3 player and the rest 3 slots occupied by computer for defense/shops only accessible to current team. I could be totally wrong but its not possible to make computer through triggers/jass and use all 12 players slots at least i haven't see map that has done this

 

[Dr Super Good]

Too impossible ?

Yes it is impossible. As save then load results in different game state than when save was run. Otherwise one could have all clients periodically auto save and then reconnect themselves using that auto save as a start point.

Well im not familiar with this streaming state game so ill believe you and ill just say Warcraft 4 or release HotS editor and move there both sounds good to me id play custom maps anyway (ill run the story 1-2 times )

HotS editor is StarCraft II editor.

Well as im not that big of coder i cant say much about stats dont know which is better but if he have built-in stats system similar to wow with attack/spell power and critical bases on stats would simplify a lot of work for modders not having to code all that JUST MY OPINION

People use stat systems far too often when in reality they are completely unnecessary. Instead of boosting a spell power stat you can boost spell power directly, which is what StarCraft II allows.

 

[karaulov]

Yes it is impossible. As save then load results in different game state than when save was run. Otherwise one could have all clients periodically auto save and then reconnect themselves using that auto save as a start point.

But I this had in mind.
But everything is much easier:
If one of client dropped, wait for reconnect, then server(host) save game and send save to client, client load this and continue game.
In War3 everyone has all game info, this is not Dota 2.
In Warcraft III is very easy to make reconnect, but stupid bad blizzard coders can't do it.

 

[Tleno]

But I this had in mind.
But everything is much easier:
If one of client dropped, wait for reconnect, then server(host) save game and send save to client, client load this and continue game.
In War3 everyone has all game info, this is not Dota 2.
In Warcraft III is very easy to make reconnect, but stupid bad blizzard coders can't do it.

It's a dated game from an era of smaller hard drives, slower internets, and greater technical limitations. It's running on a dated engine using dated libraries with engine only small portion of current Blizzard programmers might have familiarity with, and during it's development many corners were cut and many things optimized. Do you really think it's that simple and only stupidity is to blame here?

 

[Dr Super Good]

then server(host) save game and send save to client

The server (host) does not have a copy of the game state. The server is nothing more than a light weight coordinator. Hence why hosting services are offered for free as they use practically no CPU time, memory and internet bandwidth.

In War3 everyone has all game info, this is not Dota 2.

DotA 2 is super easy to reconnect to since you just wait for the next game state update which brings you all the game state as it streams you the game state from a heavy weight server which calculates it all. Reconnecting hence is as simple as in games like World of Warcraft and Diablo III which work on the same principles and take seconds.

In other words DotA 2 is like YouTube where you can resume watching a video where you last stopped without having to start from the beginning, as chunks get streamed for the position of the movie you are currently at. Warcraft III on the other hand is like a movie without key frames meaning that it has to restart from the very beginning each time it is viewed as every frame depends on the content of the previous fame except for the very first frame.

In Warcraft III is very easy to make reconnect, but stupid bad blizzard coders can't do it.

No it is not very easy. You do not seem to be understanding how difficult it is to do in RTS games. Truly accurate game state files can be anywhere from 10 to 70 MB in size depending on complexity, factoring in compression. For a lot of WC3 players it might take them longer to download, or especially upload, such state than the session lasts.

 

[DracoL1ch]

For a lot of WC3 players it might take them longer to download, or especially upload, such state than the session lasts.

well thats the least issue. you dont think about 33.6kb modem users when you doing ur stuff, so blizz should make at least "luxury" type of reconnect with this kind of gamestate sending. it may works, except the part that local player data will be fucked and that requires specific efforts from mapmakers to evade such kind of issues

 

[Dr Super Good]

you dont think about 33.6kb modem users when you doing ur stuff

Neither do you only think of people with fibre optic connections. Even then it would take one 70 seconds to upload such state. That is if WC3 was even able to save state accurately enough to allow for such a reconnection. Everything from internal ordering to timing states have to be saved perfectly.

 

[DracoL1ch]

Neither do you only think of people with fibre optic connections. Even then it would take one 70 seconds to upload such state. That is if WC3 was even able to save state accurately enough to allow for such a reconnection. Everything from internal ordering to timing states have to be saved perfectly.

ordering is fine, else you would get instant desync. as I said only local data is issue.
and well, for tournametns waiting another minute is just fine. right now there are totally 0 alternatives anyway

 

[Dr Super Good]

ordering is fine, else you would get instant desync.

The same internal ordering has to be used after a load as was used before. A lot of games fail to do this.

 

[Kyrbi0]

New Topic: Do we really think we're gonna get a new Tavern hero? I mean, it was near the top of the list (by some miracle), and it's definitely a big "HEY WE'RE DOING STUFF" signal. But after so many years... Can it be? More importantly, what would it be?? So many options, so few slots... Elemental heroes, Creep heroes, sub-race Heroes, renegade main-race Heroes...

I haven't said this anywhere yet, but some deep secret part of me had the crazy idea that they would actually run a little "Make the Next Tavern Hero" Contest (in an attempt to 1) garner community support, 2) increase visibility & community involvement, 3) crowdsource the work of doing it), where the winner would be fine-tuned & put into the following Patch!

Yeah, I know. Let me dream...

 

[Dr Super Good]

what would it be??

It would likely be a worgan or Dranari or something referencing World of Warcraft.

 

[Kyrbi0]

It would likely be a worgan or Dranari or something referencing World of Warcraft.

Never has someone made me so sad with so few words...

I could almost swallow a wolfman but please by all the is good & holy not a space-goat.

 

[Spellbound]

Never has someone made me so sad with so few words...

I could almost swallow a wolfman but please by all the is good & holy not a space-goat.

I'm the other way around, I think Worgens are completely overrated. Not that I play WoW, though. A Draenei would be fun, but don't they appear way after the events of Wc3? Imo it should be something that exists in the current time period, but WoW references don't seem that far out of left field.

 

[deepstrasz]

New Topic: Do we really think we're gonna get a new Tavern hero? I mean, it was near the top of the list (by some miracle), and it's definitely a big "HEY WE'RE DOING STUFF" signal. But after so many years... Can it be? More importantly, what would it be?? So many options, so few slots... Elemental heroes, Creep heroes, sub-race Heroes, renegade main-race Heroes...

I haven't said this anywhere yet, but some deep secret part of me had the crazy idea that they would actually run a little "Make the Next Tavern Hero" Contest (in an attempt to 1) garner community support, 2) increase visibility & community involvement, 3) crowdsource the work of doing it), where the winner would be fine-tuned & put into the following Patch!

Yeah, I know. Let me dream...

Well, for me, it would be nicer if they (Blizzard) did it.

t would likely be a worgan or Dranari or something referencing World of Warcraft.

Worgen and Draenei?

What about... a temporary flying hero (spell)? A dragonspawn something or a... IDK.
Or a two headed ogre hero?
OH I KNOW!!!! A murloc hero! YEAH, THAT'S IT! NO!!! Not Murky and certainly not that fairy dragon freak from HotStorm.
Or an eredar hero!
A faceless one hero!
A nerubian (not undead) hero?
A centaur or razormane hero?
What about a troll hero (=/=Darkspear Tribe)?
A Yeti/Sasquatch/Wildkin hero ?
Obviously another demon hero... a Mistress of Pain?
Ye olde' Kobold or Gnoll (I would sure love this last one) hero!
Revenant hero? Golem hero?
Satyr hero! Furbolg hero!
A Chris Metzen hero!

 

[Kyrbi0]

Well, for me, it would be nicer if they (Blizzard) did it.

I would love to have a hero, period. But I love Hero Contests... This would be like the ultimate test of skill in that arena.

Worgen and Draenei?

What about... a temporary flying hero (spell)? A dragonspawn something or a... IDK.
Or a two headed ogre hero?
OH I KNOW!!!! A murloc hero! YEAH, THAT'S IT! NO!!! Not Murky and certainly not that fairy dragon freak from HotStorm.
Or an eredar hero!
A faceless one hero!
A nerubian (not undead) hero?
A centaur or razormane hero?
What about a troll hero (=/=Darkspear Tribe)?
A Yeti/Sasquatch/Wildkin hero ?
Obviously another demon hero... a Mistress of Pain?
Ye olde' Kobold or Gnoll (I would sure love this last one) hero!
Revenant hero? Golem hero?
Satyr hero! Furbolg hero!
A Chris Metzen hero!

That's what I'm talking about. : )

 

[Tleno]

Never has someone made me so sad with so few words...

I could almost swallow a wolfman but please by all the is good & holy not a space-goat.

Well we already have a goddamn Pandaren, how could it get any worse?

 

[Heinvers]

A Draenei would be fun, but don't they appear way after the events of Wc3?

Well yes and no. E.g. Eredar are the original Draenei, without the demonic influence of course. Still an Eredar Warlock hero wouldn't be that bad.

 

[Spellbound]

Well, yeah, I did mean specifically a space-goat, holy-seal-on-forehead Draenei like you can play as in WoW.
An Eredar Warlock hero would be fun, agreed.

 

[Murlocologist]

OH I KNOW!!!! A murloc hero!

 

[Kyrbi0]

Well we already have a goddamn Pandaren, how could it get any worse?

Whaaaat? The Brewmaster is just swell! And his Ultimate is one of the most useful abilities for modding!

Still an Eredar Warlock hero wouldn't be that bad.

Eh, it would be my least favorite of the possible (Wc3-style) options, but it has precedent (i.e. Pit Lord) & they might come up with interesting abilities to mod, so sure.

Well, yeah, I did mean specifically a space-goat, holy-seal-on-forehead Draenei like you can play as in WoW.

Ugh... But muh timelines!!

Ooh I know a MURLOC hero!!

You know, another lesser option that I could learn to be OK with.

Thing is, Murlocs are really quite short; you'd run into the "Goblin-problem" of having to increase his stature somehow; either by pairing him with another dude (lol, riding a Tauren Space Marine?) or by giving him some 'stuff' (backpack, stilts, jetpack, ah dannae). That, or make him a Mutant Murloc (i.e. Mur'gul) and make him HUGE like a big fat deep-sea fish or something.

But seriously. A Demonic Pit Lord, an Naga Sea Witch, a giant Panda, an imposing Fire Elemental Lord... And a dinky Murloc? You must dream a bit bigger, darling.

 

[Heinvers]

Eh, it would be my least favorite of the possible (Wc3-style) options, but it has precedent (i.e. Pit Lord) & they might come up with interesting abilities to mod, so sure.

You can have the best of things from the least of favored things at times. Blizzard has proven that fact many times in the past. You might be surprised.

PS: Under alcohol influence atm btw.

Something like Seal of Despair or Annihilation could enter as its abilities.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Something like Seal of Despair or Annihilation could enter as its abilities.

Wait, wha? I mean, those are cool-sounding names for abilities but I don't know what they are, so in the context of "abilities that have modd-able options" it's kinda meaningless. (Even if we knew what the abilities did, it's really more a matter of what fields it has & what isn't hard-coded in the Object Editor; stuff we really couldn't know until we actually opened it up).

Sorry if I'm being pedantic; just excited.

PS: Under alcohol influence atm btw.

I can tell. xD

 

[Heinvers]

SWekkll, something like Seal of Despair - Appliles -40% damage taken from enemy untis and Annihilation - Deals 150 damage to all nearby enemy units without mana.

Still under influence.

 

[deepstrasz]

Still under influence.

At least you can speak decently unlike Eminem.

 

[Murlocologist]

But seriously. A Demonic Pit Lord, an Naga Sea Witch, a giant Panda, an imposing Fire Elemental Lord... And a dinky Murloc? You must dream a bit bigger, darling.

Did I ever tell you how often I have to use google translate when talking with you?
Murloc race, ancient race of Azeroth beats all of these... lore rapers you listed. When it comes to size, well idk, you could mount murloc on turtle or some less intelligent bipedal being like sea giant? Like that alchemy goblin thing.

 

[deepstrasz]

you could mount murloc on turtle

Better this than the other one.

 

[Eagle XI]

Maybe an Revenant hero that is an forgotten soul from the north, an fierce ice troll monsterhunter, an overlord of the bandits, an fully fleshed out black knight with unique skill set, an red dragonspawn dual-wielding flaming blades,
perhaps they'd recycle the Crusader concept, combine all his seals into one skill that works switched like Powerthread item of DotA, so you get +2 ability space to make him more interesting, instead being an all auras provider, and then skin him affiliated with the scarlets so being in tavern makes sense.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Maybe an Revenant hero that is an forgotten soul from the north, an fierce ice troll monsterhunter, an overlord of the bandits, an fully fleshed out black knight with unique skill set, an red dragonspawn dual-wielding flaming blades,
perhaps they'd recycle the Crusader concept, combine all his seals into one skill that works switched like Powerthread item of DotA, so you get +2 ability space to make him more interesting, instead being an all auras provider, and then skin him affiliated with the scarlets so being in tavern makes sense.

All good ideas. : )

 

[Shyster]

Revenants could certainly use some love

 

[Kyrbi0]

Did I ever tell you how often I have to use google translate when talking with you?

Lol really? What for?

Murloc race, ancient race of Azeroth beats all of these... lore rapers you listed. When it comes to size, well idk, you could mount murloc on turtle or some less intelligent bipedal being like sea giant? Like that alchemy goblin thing.

Psh. Trolls are way more ancient.

Yeah, just like Goblins, mounting works too. I could see a giant sea-turtle, or maybe an awexome octopus or something.

Revenants could certainly use some love

I mean, they kinda already have, just shy a good skillset... Hero Contest ahoy!

 

[Raised]

I'd like to see the game camera working properly with flying units. Now it appears incorrectly.

Some dudes somehow dealt with that (Foex. - Flight simulator, DGUI), though it should be better if we get rid of that systems and come out with more efficient solutions. which Blizzard can probably present.

 

[kellym0]

Lol really? What for?


Psh. Trolls are way more ancient.

Yeah, just like Goblins, mounting works too. I could see a giant sea-turtle, or maybe an awexome octopus or something.


I mean, they kinda already have, just shy a good skillset... Hero Contest ahoy!

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/media/turtle-screeny-1.88985/full?d=1465610620

I mean come on blizzard wheres my funding

 

[KILLCIDE]

And a dinky Murloc?

Ooh I know a MURLOC hero!!

*cough* ahem.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Murloc, not Mur'gul bro.

Get on our level.

xD