Beyond the Throne: Tides of Darkness

[DoOs_101]

Nice to see this still on. For sure you can ignore AI completely, it discourages ppl from playing online.

 

[punwisp]

And whats wrong with playing in singleplayer?

 

[Mechanical Man]

Nice to see this still on. For sure you can ignore AI completely, it discourages ppl from playing online.

WTF are you talking about. AI is very good to newbies to learn quicker and to fill missing slots. These are just excuses of mapmaker incompetence.

 

[DoOs_101]

WTF are you talking about. AI is very good to newbies to learn quicker and to fill missing slots. These are just excuses of mapmaker incompetence.

It is not an excuse as such I can take a great example, like DotA, they did not develop their own AI map until the late versions, in fact they don't care about making one. A random Indonesian programmer decided to make one for DotA. As for a good advice, a smart distributor would encourage their players to play online since it increases the incentive of other people to play and also does not kill the fact that people can just go singleplayer to learn how to play while we actually want them to learn by playing with other people. That way the game is played more online and thus more people play your map.

Don't agree with me its fine, just a strategic advice...

 

[punwisp]

It is not an excuse as such I can take a great example, like DotA, they did not develop their own AI map until the late versions, in fact they don't care about making one. A random Indonesian programmer decided to make one for DotA. As for a good advice, a smart distributor would encourage their players to play online since it increases the incentive of other people to play and also does not kill the fact that people can just go singleplayer to learn how to play while we actually want them to learn by playing with other people. That way the game is played more online and thus more people play your map.

Don't agree with me its fine, just a strategic advice...

There are other things you arnt taking into consideration. Some people have internet issues, and if they want to play the map they can play it on SP and have fun. If they just like playing SP whats wrong with that? Its stupid if you don't add a AI

 

[Kam]

Ok guys, lets not derail this.

Just so we are clear, I would love to have AI - but I guess because I'm "incompetent" that's the one thing I can't do myself.

Either offer to do the AI, or drop the subject.


Now, if anyone has some feedback I'd be happy to review it.

 

[punwisp]

I played your map on SP on the orc side to see all the units and stuff and I see many issues

-Deathknights were not chaos orcs...use this that actually looks like a DK
Death Knight Old order - The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site

-I found no ogre magi upgrade
-every sound was echoed which really isnt a great feature(no offense)
-Sense when do orc warlocks speak Jamaican(troll)?
-poor choice in soundsets for ships.. you can just make them have ship soundsets lol
-Gnomes didnt have dwarf voices =P but i cant blame you on that
-descriptions were literaly WAY too long...


The terrain is nice though, icons are nice, Naval units are too, but I dont see a reason to make a shipyard that sells 4-5 units and another shipyard that sells 1. The walls were also a good touch.

Your project is great, but it still needs a lot of Improvement. Though one thing that still bothers me is you used a chaos orc warchief as a deathknight..and even used the soundset... Also in WC2 they were called warlocks not necrolytes =P

 

[Kam]

-Ogre Magi upgrade is in he Ogre Mound.
-The sound echo is in your sound setting, turn dynamic sounds off.
-The long descriptions are for the powerhouse units: Dragons, Gryphons, Death Knights, Mages, Ravagers, and Purifiers. It's just meant to give a little back story.
-I know death knights weren't chaos orcs, but here is the deal. I've seen every model there is, I even used that one you linked for awhile with the hero glow removed, but it's too big. Even with mdx squisher it's still 330 kb. Find me a simple model that's 75 kb or less and I'll use it.
-The ship voices were just to add some color really, I didn't think it was right for all the naval units to have the same sound set.
-Warcraft II didn't have warlocks as a race unit, that was wc1.

I'll see if I can find better choices for the naval sound sets though.

 

[Mechanical Man]

Ok guys, lets not derail this.

Just so we are clear, I would love to have AI - but I guess because I'm "incompetent" that's the one thing I can't do myself.

Either offer to do the AI, or drop the subject.


Now, if anyone has some feedback I'd be happy to review it.

Sorry to make you sound like you are a noob and bad mapmaker, but my comment was directed to DoOs, because his excuse was so lame. Is ok to say, my map is too complex to make an AI (I dislike complex maps btw), AI is not really my field, etc.., but not hide the real reason behind these excuses.

DoOs_101: They did not develop the AI, because they were not good enough to do so. And even now that is developed, I don't see that the popularity of the map decreased.

In this case would be hard to make an AI, as I heard the AI doesn't recognize sea transports.

 

[punwisp]

Dude adding DK wont make much of a difference..

Atleast take hero glow off of the DK ingame and use that, with the DK voice or something.

Adding that DK model I sent you wont make really much of a difference unless you have lots of custom models with KB

Btw you wont find "good" Dk models with 75 kb. Just dont use the chaos orc and the soundset @_@ in my opinion that ruins it... Btw for long description put it in on hints and stuff.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Elven Destroyers can kill Battleships, that never happened in Warcraft 2, the battleships were much stonger. Another error, if you research barrage for the Siege Engines, then you can no longer train them...

You do know the limit for L.A.N. and Battle.net play is 4mb? The map isnt even approaching that yet (approx 1.7mb). Import more models or something... People's P.C.'s now can cope with large map files and they download off battle.net or L.A.N. quite quickly. Or make another version that's nearer the limit? That would give it more of a War2 feel.

I started making a Warcraft II campagin ages ago now, but some of the models are wrong (which means I put it into archiving ages ago)... I never had a church, Temple of the Dammed, dragon roost or Gnomish inventor. Still can't find them... =/

 

[Kam]

The filesize is going to stay around where it is, it currently takes people on bnet about 30 seconds to dl. When it was 2000 kb it took ever a min. When it was almost 3000 kb it took almost 2 mins.

I didn't notice a problem with the siege engine, I'll look into that.

And btw, model sizes are as such:
Orc Transport = 25 kb
Church = 102 kb
Temple of the Damned = 120 kb
Gnomish Inventor = 140 kb
Gnomish Sub = 94 kb

So don't tell me there aren't good models with small sizes.

EDIT: I tested the barrage bug and got the same result, I'll release a patch in a day or so people have time to report any other major bugs.

 

[punwisp]

You do realize you didnt make any points on models lol. When I say good I mean detailed, not too detailed but detailed. 90% of those models you listed have very little detail and are full of simple colors. So a "good" model that has enough detail not to look cheesy like the ones you listed arnt very common..

Also Ever thought posting the map for download? So pple can just drag it into there maps folder... Ding, solves the problem, just tell pple to download it. Really is simple.
Your project is good so far but there are a lot of issues and errors, one issue being is custom models. You have a lot of space left for more models. Couple more won't hurt

 

[Kam]

It is up for download?

And I need more suggestions for unit changes, balance issues, things to do with stats. Any more bugs being listed is also important.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

The filesize is going to stay around where it is, it currently takes people on bnet about 30 seconds to dl. When it was 2000 kb it took ever a min. When it was almost 3000 kb it took almost 2 mins.

I didn't notice a problem with the siege engine, I'll look into that.

And btw, model sizes are as such:
Orc Transport = 25 kb
Church = 102 kb
Temple of the Damned = 120 kb
Gnomish Inventor = 140 kb
Gnomish Sub = 94 kb

So don't tell me there aren't good models with small sizes.

EDIT: I tested the barrage bug and got the same result, I'll release a patch in a day or so people have time to report any other major bugs.

I wasn't complaining, I was just trying to help. I've never spent long downloading a map on B.NET, mebbe all the maps I've been on are small...
I was just saying that maybe put in more of the models, or at least import a male archer model instead of the female one.

I'm not saying they are bad, I'm still trying to find them =/...

 

[punwisp]

Atleast use a Custom DK model... That chaos orc warchief just isnt gonna work...

 

[Kam]

Find me a usable one and I'll put it in. 150 kb or less total, including textures.

 

[punwisp]

Just use the normal DK atleast... Chaos orc just aint gonna cut it

 

[Kam]

Anyone have any more bugs or stats issues to report?

 

[RogueVtern]

Okay I havent really been playing to see what was wrong and what not. I was playing it for the fun . Anyways soon Ill be doing some bug checks and some feedback maybe.

It brought me alot of memories back of playing WC2 when I was a kid...good times.

 

[Gausslander]

It bothers me somewhat... the fact that there are no heroes means that there is no point for the harpies in the middle. You used Blizzard Cliffs. The terrainart is shameful. And the building icons should be replaced with in least a snap shot of the model. The chaos war chief will do for the dark knight model.

Hero DeathKnight - Wc3campaigns

This custom model is 211 kb. It's close enough if you ask me, it isn't going to kill you to put it in.

-By: Whitehorn

 

[Kam]

So far I've fixed the steam tank bug, redid the soundsets for the boats, and made Alter of Teron a unique cast ability.

What would you suggest for terrain art modifications? The creeps in he map are for gold, and he center is for a base. If you look, the maximum range on juggernauts and battleships can only go a little beyond the cliff walls.

I suppose that model can work, I'm going to compress the hell out of it though. =/

 

[Csicska]

eeee

Ive downloaded the map and tested it, it's good, but in my opinion it still needs changings.
-You do need to add heroes. Warcraft without heroes = fail.
-Apprentice's Shackel ability has the H hotkey, just like Hold Position- it doesn't work
-Resource costs are a bit high
-Some sort of AI would be cool, but not that important, cause who doesn't play it on battle-net
-Death Knight model is too small. It's a half-hero unit, it should be at least a bit bigger
-One of the tooltips say that Mages have Rain of Fire, though they actually have Blizzard
-It should be clearly noted that Zeppelin is not capable of carrying units- not that obvious
-You should write numbers by numbers instead of letters -> makes life easier
-Terrain is a bit poor
-No point of harpies in the middle without heroes
-Some creep camps would be cool also

I think it's a very cool map, but it needs the changes listed above
-Csicska

 

[Kam]

Well heroes are tricky. I am going to add hero units that doesn't have any special abilities, they will simply be more buff units that can level and revive.

I'll fix the shackel and Mage bug.
the harpies are there to protect a very strategic position. They also yield gold.
Which resource costs?

And I've had several people say the terrain isn't good, I need specific suggestions.

Also if someone could remove the hero glow from that death knight model I'd appreciate it.

 

[Csicska]

Boudble uuu teee efff?

So, as for resources, I meant the cost of upgrades, like Slow, and Invicibility. I wanst able to actually spare enough resources for those for a long time, cause the others kept attacking me, and I had no chance to get more resources then the vital. Reducing the costs with 10-15% would do it.

 

[Elven Spellmake]

One Death Knight model with, I think, the hero glow removed. Tell me if it isnt, or if it appears funny inside the game...

 

[Kam]

Alright, so here's what's changed so far.

-Fixed the shackel and mage tooltip bugs
-Fixed the steam tank bug
-Added hero like units, models used are:
Ogre Lord, Troll Warlord, Lord Garithos, Captain
They will have one or more passive abilities that don't level. The heroes themselves can level to 10 as usual. This is a compromise so people have incentive to build armies. I will take suggestions for a third hero for each race, no imported models please.

And I'm not sure what the problem is, but I can't get that edited model to show up in-game.

Edit:

Changed the texture for axe thrower to:

 

[Kam]

EDIT: New version out!


Hey all, just wanted to let you know that I'll be releasing an update in a few hours. It was a massive undertaking in balance and terrain changes.

I'm not dead!

=p

Also, the name has been changed to:

Beyond the Throne: Tides of Darkness

Why? Well time for some lore. This is set after the end of the frozen throne. The undead have been defeated, and the nightelves have retreated for the most part to attempt to restore the forests to their former glory. The alliance between orcs and humans quickly deteriorated, and with all the advances made during the war they have some new weapons of war.

 

[Avex]

Very nice, I played this with my friends a while back. Good too see its alive.


About the death knight, you DO know there are like 3 models for it on Hive Models section right?

 

[Kam]

Blarg I know I know.

They are too large in file size. They need to be less than 100 kb, I'm trying to conserve space as a larger map means more lag on bnet.

But please do try the new version out. =)

 

[Gausslander]

I've never seen this hosted.
And the lack of AI is still pissing me off and has been for like years.

 

[Mechanical Man]

Looking in your sig I see two tanks, apparently in your map. I think that they don't fit there, at least the left one looks way too modern for your map, the right one would be ok, but it has ugly model, I'm sure you could find better ones around.

As for AI, I heard that is impossible to tell computer to use sea transports properly (maybe would be possible with air transports ). Anyway, you could make an only ground version, where AI would be easy to implement.

 

[Anachron]

I am a good coder and I know ways to code AI for everything.

Well so far those map are easier then Arena AI I think.

 

[Kam]

Well I would appreciate the AI help, but Mechanical Man is correct. I've had three people try the AI, and none of them have been able to get it to use transports. Also, the AI can only use one waypoint at a time, so it trys to send both land and naval to the same location.

However, if you're still interested Anachron please let me know.

The tanks are actually quiet popular on b-net. When the models were hosted I was hit with inspiration so to speak and fit them into the tech tree.

And Scyth-Master, I'm not here to provide you with entertainment. Blizzard made it extremely difficult to use AI in certain ways, it takes time. And this isn't dota, it isn't played by half a million people every day, but I assure you there are many people on epicwar that look forward to each release.

 

[Gausslander]

Lol. And here I thought every release was for me.

 

[Kam]

Well do me a favor and try the new release before you denounce it. =p

 

[LordPerdon]

Many thanks your offer, I think, we should work together. I would like to see my/our project on Battle net, too. I think, I should use your ship-using AI and some models for Buildings and units, if you are into it. The orc campaign needs just 4 maps, I could not make naval using AI, but we can rebuild the maps, if you are into it. The human campaign has just one map, but the balance is ready, all main units have their right and balanced abilities.

Please write to this forum (I copied my reply to your thread,too): you should give some msn-adress or something to speak about the project and if you want to see the alpha, I can send you.

I played your map, and I found it cool.

My work is in alpha phase, I planned the open beta release about christmas.

Lord Perdon

Warcraft Chronicles: The Tides of Darkness

 

[Anachron]

Well I would appreciate the AI help, but Mechanical Man is correct. I've had three people try the AI, and none of them have been able to get it to use transports. Also, the AI can only use one waypoint at a time, so it trys to send both land and naval to the same location.

However, if you're still interested Anachron please let me know.

WTF did they try it with AI Editor? NOWAY, noob coders, a really good AI is coded by alot of triggers, how stupid are they to create a basic AI with the AI Editor? Its like making a wonderful map and stop at the half. Its ok but nothing more.

I am still interested, but currently I have much to do.

 

[Kam]

Well when you can I it would be great. But by no means were they noobs. Moyack wrote the entire AI in jass and still couldn't get around the transport thing. I don't think anyone ever has.

I look forward to some feedback. =)

 

[Anachron]

Whats so hard with that transport thing? :S

 

[Kam]

Don't know, I'm not an AI person. From what I understand though Blizzard didn't make any way for AI to use the load and unload ability, also the game has no way to distinguish shallow water, so it doesn't know where to unload.

 

[Anachron]

If you allow me to add rects I can do everything for you Even trying the load & unload ability since the AI is able to cast everything if you force them to do so.

 

[LordPerdon]

In original Warcraft3, in the orcish campaign there is a map (where Cairne returns to Thrall and there is a blue human base on a cliff to destroy), where the human's AI uses zeppelins to transport. Is it possilble to make something from it? I cannot use JASS (but I would like to learn it...), so I don't know the possibilities about it.
Use an MPQ extractor and extract the AI file from war3.mpq and look for (if I remember well) Scripts\o06_blue.ai. And open in Notepad.

 

[Kam]

The AI has no trouble with air transports, But I'll give Anachron a shot at it. =)

PM me an email to send you the map Anachron.

 

[Maedh]

Looks nice. Good lucky with the AI.

 

[Anachron]

Thanks, I pm you when I have time.

 

[Snoop_Doggy_Dog]

No, the only resources I made were a few icon edits. The credits list can be found in-game. As far as the WC2 building models, the only one that I obtained from a public source was the Church. So I can give you that one.

wuts the file path for the church.blp ?

 

[Anachron]

I maybe have time in 1/2/3 weeks.

 

[punwisp]

Did you change the descriptions that were very long? Since they werent needed, if u want them, u should put them in the info tab. Also did you change the DK? Last I saw you used the orc warcfhief model with the orc warchief sound... Which didn't even make it even close to feel or look like one... You can just use a custom DK model and use the DK sound =P

 

[Kam]

So far I've made a smaller 2v2 map and removed the Gazlowe and Kronous. I've made several other balance changes and found a suitable model for the orc forge.

As per the Death Knight, I have still yet to find a suitable model. I have standards as to the size of models I will import, as I must keep download times in mind on bnet. I have seen every model on this site, unless someone made a new one in the past week that I missed. They are all too large, and I can't compress models that have separate portraits. Until I find one that isn't over 100 kb after compression the current model will have to do.