Wuffles Thread of balance and changes in AtD

[Wuffle]

First of all, I don't play that much on bnet anymore so anything posted here maybe totaly biased and ignored, but i just want to be heard. I played 3 1v1 hunter dm -ar games yesterday with a friend(cuz no1 else was online), and this will be the thread where i get my suggestions...


For now I just want to consider how imbalanced creeps in merc shop are,

only usefull 2 mercs are priest(reduce dps,cheap, nice nuke,nice creeping skill,good hp) and deceivier( hi i am 2.2 k hp ranged dps pet costing only 225 gold and having imba heal/hex/frost armor so u can creep any red camp with just one me and a hero >1 lvl, suppp)

all 3 GAMES i played it comes down who gets deceivier first,priest is handy too, I suggest nerfing heal(lol full hp almost no cd heal which cost 125 mana sup) ,mana pool(700 is ridicolous, at least 500 or something, 2 other spells are just fine , mb hex needs little less duratation,but not important.

Priest needs hp nerf.Perioud, he costs really cheap and has like wut,800 hp?also curse literally makes dpsing hard, he can help a lot preety much everywhere


another suggestion is to buff that bandit that is also in mercs, hes beyond useless, mana shield does crap cuz he has 500 mana(wtf?decivier 700 and he doesnt even need that much) coil does 1 dmg and only thing hes capable of is tanking little, i think this merc should be reworked imo,aboslutly useless.

[1)ark_NiTe]

Mercenary's may indeed need to be reworked. I've never come across any problems with them but you may be right. They were originally made for Normal mode so they very well could be imbalanced in DM. Give me some time to figure out the situation with merc's and try to balance them.

[Wuffle]

I cant believe how popular this game is in garena,all my friends have played it and call it 'vampire rip off', :( too bad they dont like the game but i force them to play


I guess for now i just spam MERCS ARE BANNED every game -_-.


Played nature mage 2 games in a room in a hunters dm match and here are my suggestions


Cooldown of roots and heal are WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too long,its like half of ulti cd omg, maybe its just me getting used to dota but it takes forever to cast anything, i think(again,mb i mbiased) to reduce cooldown,maybe a little on roots and like 10 seconds on heal, but higher mana cost,like 150/200 for roots and heal, he has huge mana pool anyways, mb scale it on levels from 100 to 150/200 or something, will get back at you when i play other heroes



EDIT: played battle mage, again cooldown on that AoE slow really longggg , maybe its just me but its like 100000000000000000000000000000000 hours i cant even creep shit, u can nerf the dmg/slow etc but reduce cd, also wtf? my first spell has never proc'd ,bug or?


Heal fountain doesnt heal a lot imho ,need buff on that as well, as in right now it doesnt do anything,ud better off getting mercs/pots than staying 2 minutes trying to heal urself at fountain.

[zacharylky]

Hey there, I'm Wuffle's friend who always plays with him AtD.

I have a few suggestions:

1. Why not make a setting where you can toggle Mercenaries on and off? This will be better so no one cries (FUCKING MERCS SO IMBA) and stuff.

2. Frost Archer needs a buff. Definitely. She cant be played in Death Match mode, since she is too weak. Frost nova has a high mana cost for a weak nuke and a slow. Plus, her damage passive is horribly bad at level one, since it only procs 10% of the time(for what, 30< damage? screw it). And Frost Archer is TOO WEAK to even level up to a level where that passive is useful enough. I never got to a high level enough to get the ultimate though, since it's really very weak. Wind Walk is only worth getting a level, and then ignoring it completely for better emphasis to level her pathetic nuke and passives.

[1)ark_NiTe]

Wow there's some scathing criticism in here haha. I haven't got that in a while. It sounds like you are all talking about Death Match mode. No one plays DM so this is good b/c I never get feedback on it. A few hero's have been reworked to be more balanced in DM (and thus have had damage reduced from normal mode).

Now, are you saying mercenaries are too powerful in both modes or just DM? The difference in HP and attack for the Deceiver mercenary is HP 2400/1500, dmg 92/54. He basically has half of everything in DM mode. I think I need some more info on exactly which mercenaries you think are imba and the reasons why.

As far as cooldowns are concerned I know what you're saying and also agree it's probably bias from playing DoTA since most cd's are fast. The cooldown's and mana costs of abilities in AtD have been intricately balanced with one another over a long period of time. Every once in a while it turns out that the mana cost or cooldown could use a nerf/buff to be more competitive with other abilities. Usually this is just about 5-10 seconds.

Right now Nature's Fury has a 45 second cooldown. The reason for this originally was because it is primarily a hold spell and I didn't want it to be spammed. This is also when Hero limits were not in place so I was worried if 5 people wanted to choose Mage they could kill DK really early in game by continually casting fury on him.

However, now that I look at other spells I see that Supercharge has only a 25 second cooldown and it is a stun spell. Iced Arrow has a 25 second cooldown and it has a slowing effect. There is also a limit per Hero of 2 now. It looks as if I do indeed need to nerf Fury down to 30 seconds. The reason it will remain 5 seconds higher is b/c it keeps the unit from moving for 3.75 seconds but also slows it after the hold.

After looking at Arcane Thunder Clash (cooldown 35 seconds) I've decided to decrease both its cd to 30 seconds and mana cost by 15 to be more in line with the aforementioned spells. Leech, however, is a tricky spell to balance. It does seem to have a long cooldown (50 seconds) but it damages AND heals. When you also have Wave of Restoration the healing can get rather imbalanced. I'm worried about changing this but I will knock the cooldown to 40 seconds and increase the mana cost by 15 hoping that the Doc will remain balanced. (Late game I am really worried about what this will lead to though!!! Do you see what I'm saying?).

Someone else told me Great Cleave didn't proc for them... but every time I've tested this it HAS proc'd for me and everyone else. I don't know what the problem would be but I completely recoded/optimized the ability in the upcoming version so lets hope it will be working for you by then (since it is a great ability to obtain!).

zacharylky, First off welcome to the Forums! Anyway, as far as the Frozen Archer is concerned she has low HP but a quick attack, the ability to become invisible and a strong nuke (as much as you say it isn't strong, it is). The FA has notoriously been the strongest hunter in AtD and has received several nerfs to solve this problem. Perhaps there has been one nerf too many though. Are you referencing her in DM or Normal mode? Let me know and I'll look into her situation as well. P.S. Swift Shot (her passive) doesn't just deal extra damage but slows as well.

A no mercenaries mode sounds like a good idea. I will likely add that as an option in 2.94.

Originally Posted by Wuffle

Heal fountain doesnt heal a lot imho ,need buff on that as well

p.s. More DoTA bias . No just kidding with ya, I'll look into it but I fear if it were any faster people could camp fountain in Doom and never die.

[Wuffle]

I'm really sorry i came harsh on you, its just how i am ;p, sry if u feel offended.

Yes,this should be remaded to dm wuffles thread of balance cuz thats all i play(not enough ppl for classic,and no1 wants that).

Deceiver can't die in DM,nope ,not going to happen, he has heal which has short CD, heals for like 700 hp, hex which lasts long on creeps and other mercs,costs little too,and frost armor is just like free ticket to killing every red camp in the game. Hex and FA are actually preety okay to me but heal is just too much, also his mana pool is really big ,combining with his hp(lol 1500 i can barely dish out 400 out of him w/o heal), SCREAM NERF!His dmg is ok tho, preety balanced.

I suggest getting his cd longer,mana pool to 400, heal costing 250 and hex 150, fa is 100, reduce seconds on hex vs creeps,prolly by 5, heal can be dispelled if attacked(mb its too much but heal is priceless(im still talking about dm all the time), i dunno ,mb u can come up with idea to nerf heal, make it like salve in wc3 in orcs shop,dispelled if attacked.

Priest from shop (dark?) needs little nerf, mb -200(?) hp reduce cuz hes rly cheap yet can tank a lot, make his nuke cost less and curse cost more, OR just make him more expesive.


Which brings us to worst merc ever,the bandit.

He has 500 mana and mana shield absorbing his mana into hp. Wtf?Why? He already has 1200 ish hp, he doesnt need another 500 for tanking,its preety useless, remove mana shield and get aura/divine shield/anything OR make it better, increase mana pool and nerf his hp,like 800 so it actually does something.

Buff coil or make some stun , coil dmg is like 50 which is nothing in DM, for the price its literally useless, could make a heal tho,like 200 hp instant heal for 200 mana.

or just reduce cost,make priest higher than bandit, nerf bandit hp to 600 so he cant tank red mobs, and make his spells more usefull(yet not imba)

The infernal thingy is fine tho, preety ok.

Battle mage has so much int, so much mana, making arcane thunder cost less makes arcane thunder too spammable, suggest u actually make it more expensive!You can actually change formula to agi X str X int it will synergice with ulti preety well, but thats just too imba mb tweak it somehow.
Wtf i play vs zach and great cleave lvl 4 never proc,whole 40 minutes.


Anyways im really blind but i cant see zach typing in this thread.

Sometimes I just think im ruining the game, dont listen to me much imo, or i feel too guilty :O!

[1)ark_NiTe]

OMG I just realized something... The Deceiver from Normal mode was still being sold in DM mode. That is probably why you were having so much trouble with him! Nonetheless, I reduced the amount healed and increased the cooldown on rejuvenation for him. I also decreased his mana pool.

I also decreased Dark Mage's HP in DM by 150. I increased damage of Vampire Knight's Death Coil to 138 (half of 275, which it now heals UD units for). You're right it definitely needed it. It was only damaging for 50. I also decreased his hit points by 200 and increased his mana pool.

[Wuffle]

nice -_-,will get back at ya when i play more

[zacharylky]

Originally Posted by 1)ark_NiTe

zacharylky, First off welcome to the Forums! Anyway, as far as the Frozen Archer is concerned she has low HP but a quick attack, the ability to become invisible and a strong nuke (as much as you say it isn't strong, it is). The FA has notoriously been the strongest hunter in AtD and has received several nerfs to solve this problem. Perhaps there has been one nerf too many though. Are you referencing her in DM or Normal mode? Let me know and I'll look into her situation as well. P.S. Swift Shot (her passive) doesn't just deal extra damage but slows as well.

Thanks! :D

I suppose I will have play FA more to check about the nuke. Another problem I have with the nuke is it's cooldown, sometimes it seems a little too long to catch escaping enemies :/

Yeah I'm referencing all of this in DM mode. I only play it with Wuffle so yeah...

I'm aware that her Swift Shot passive slows, but it's like it never procs enough for the slow to actually be useful. And besides, frost archer is too weak to level to a level high enough for the % chance for her passive to proc to be good before the game ends/she gets killed so it's pretty useless..

A skill-build most people would go for when using FA would be:

Nuke
WW(wind walk)
Nuke
Passive
Nuke
Ultimate
Nuke
Passive
etc..

and this leaves the passive skill at lvl 1 for a long period of time. Even if we get the passive instead of windwalk at lvl 2 and max the passive first before getting any points in wind walk, 15% proc chance(lvl 2 is too weak to even be considered as helpful.)

Swift Shot deals a percentage of her agility in damage and also a slow, but the slow is hardly useful in creeping camps and the DPS increase it gives the FA isn't that impressive considering the proc chance of Swift Shot.. Since the FA has already very low health, having no good skills to help her to stay longer in creep fights when creeping camps disallows her to level as good as the other heroes, causing her to have a big disadvantage if she ever comes across one of the other hunters in DM mode.

Both me and Wuffle have played FA and we have both not been able to get to above lvl 6 before getting our asses kicked in DM mode. Both he and me can vouch for the weakness of FA.

EDIT: This must be also because FA isn't good in 1v1 DM. We usually play 1v1 cause people whine and complain that the game is a Vampirism rip off and leave after downloading. It pisses us off, too. I don't think FA's health needs to be buffed, or if buffed, just a little, and her attack speed is pretty okay. I just find it difficult to use FA to even creep a green camp without losing less than 3/4 of my HP. I would suggest buffing Swift Shot, but maybe decreasing the duration of the slow.

[1)ark_NiTe]

Okay I see what you're saying. Swift Shot proc's at 10/15/20/25% for her FULL agility (not a percentage of it). I will look into changing it to 15/20/25/30%. Would that be better in your opinion?

[Wuffle]

No, I disagree with whatever zach is saying

swift shot is fine, fa is fine, mb buff +1.5 str on every lvl gain but shes fine cuz she can pubstomp really well, she feeds on killing and making them lower lvl than you which results into better levels>more success of winning. She can really be a good candidate of winning in full house hunter dm cuz of her ability to finish one hero quickly, the hero is very unique cuz she can gank quite a lot but cant creep red camps for shit w/o mercs(which will not be able to tank in red camps so :p), only thing i understand about him is chance to invul target?why...wtf he regens hp while being invul, and slows down ur already crippled creeping cuz it invuls. Ulti only thing that needs buff, wind walk prolly needs nerf as well.

[1)ark_NiTe]

I released 2.94 so you may want to go download it. I decided against making Mercenaries optional in this release but may do so in the future if you guys still think that they are imbalanced. Read the full changelog and download the map from the link to v2.94 in my signature.

The reason her nuke has a chance to invulnerable is simple. It would be imbalanced to have Iced Arrow deal the large amount of damage that it does and then also stun the unit making it helpless to further damage from the fast-attacking FA. The advantage to holding is so you can catch up to it or surround it with your Hero and units for when it unfreezes.

Have you checked out how Vanish was changed a few versions back? It got a big nerf.

Originally Posted by 1)ark_NiTe

v2.88b
8. Vanish duration set to 25 seconds at every level, cooldown set to 50 seconds.

[Wuffle]

Originally Posted by 1)ark_NiTe

I released 2.94 so you may want to go download it. I decided against making Mercenaries optional in this release but may do so in the future if you guys still think that they are imbalanced. Read the full changelog and download the map from the link to v2.94 in my signature.

The reason her nuke has a chance to invulnerable is simple. It would be imbalanced to have Iced Arrow deal the large amount of damage that it does and then also stun the unit making it helpless to further damage from the fast-attacking FA. The advantage to holding is so you can catch up to it or surround it with your Hero and units for when it unfreezes.

Have you checked out how Vanish was changed a few versions back? It got a big nerf.

ah ya,well didnt see sry


how about removin invul?its not like the invuled person cant take advantage of it(surrond himself,besides his cd recoll as well so dun rly see point of invul in DM cuz FA doesnt spread dmg,she burst dmg one target,she prolly wont have any mers cuz no gold so all she gains is ENEMIES mercs attacking her while the hero is invul,thxs for invul u can now take dmg from my pets for 4(?) seconds.
This prolly works at original mode for frost novaing DK's pets etc, but in DM i see no point, im not saying make it perc to stun,removing would be nice

its only IMO tho, i can see it being good as escaping,catching up i guess,but meh,id rather attack fast, fininsh out hero and move on rather than waiting 4 seconds in which new hero/enemies creeps/creeps attack me t.t

I still think by making chance to invul target is more like handicap to ur spell,not benefit

I stil see buffing FA's passive too much,30 % ?she can have up to 130 agi if played right lol hi 130 +dmg slow eery 3 attacks meaning fights are unbearable!

come to think of it, i remember WINNING full house hunter atd dm with FA while YOU were in the game!that was so epic
Zach! says:
i see
dark nite doesnt think its good that there's invul
Rustam says:
look
Zach! says:
he only says about advantage and disadvantage
Rustam says:
he types
he types
that its too imba to have stun
stun>good
Zach! says:
The advantage to holding is so you can catch up to it or surround it with your Hero and units for when it unfreezes.
Rustam says:
meaning invul>good
ya
no disadvantages are told
Zach! says:
dude
distadvantage is obvious
invul = cant attack
Rustam says:
not
to
dark nite
Zach! says:
thats what he's saying
Rustam says:
wtf?

Zach! says:
yes
he's saying that he KNOWS invul is bad
he's just saying advantages about the invul time
Rustam says:
dude
hes saying
that stun after slow is imba
stun=nothing bad
invul=nothing bad
anwyays
i dont see
why he nerfed
WAIT
i got perfect
example
to think dark nite thinks invul time
Zach! says:
shoot
Rustam says:
is only good
why
did he buff
% proc to invul over levels
and not nerf it by the time
why 15/30/45/60 opposed to 60/45/30/15?
Zach! says:
did he nerf invul percentage?
Rustam says:
buff over time
15 for lvl 1 60 ffor lvl4
Zach! says:
percentage?
Rustam says:
yes
Zach! says:
because the higher level it is
the stronger it gets
Rustam says:
?
Zach! says:
the skill
Rustam says:
it gets suckier
Zach! says:
I mean
not the invul
Rustam says:
?
why
would u want
to nerf it over time
Zach! says:
LISTEN TO ME
LISTEN TO WHAT IM SAYING
LET ME TALk
Rustam says:
its not big diffrence in damage
over levels
Zach! says:
LET ME FINISH TALKING
Rustam says:
no
diffrence between lvl 1 and 4 nova is like 200 dmg
opposed to 15>60 percentage to make it invul
theres no reason
to upgrade nova now

[zacharylky]

From what I see, The increase for the invul chance is there to balance the Swift Shot skill. As Swift Shot increases in level, the skill gets stronger as well, and the invul chance I believe is there so that the FA can't just right click someone and keep attacking them and kill them in a matter of seconds(with Swift Shot at high levels), making her too imba. This is when the invul chance comes in to prevent the FA from being too imba and nerfing her Swift Shot ability(as it levels) and also preventing her ability to kill heroes as fast/easy as having Swift Shot without the invul(as it levels).

I believe the reason that the invul proc chance increases as the level increases instead of decreases is so as to "balance" the skill and FA, and so that even though FA gets stronger by getting higher levels of Swift Shot, FA will not become too strong. This invul is a nerf to stop Swift Shot from being too imba.

Another way you can look at this is maybe also to give ideas to the player on other ways to play FA :)

[Wuffle]

Originally Posted by zacharylky

From what I see, The increase for the invul chance is there to balance the Swift Shot skill. As Swift Shot increases in level, the skill gets stronger as well, and the invul chance I believe is there so that the FA can't just right click someone and keep attacking them and kill them in a matter of seconds(with Swift Shot at high levels), making her too imba. This is when the invul chance comes in to prevent the FA from being too imba and nerfing her Swift Shot ability(as it levels) and also preventing her ability to kill heroes as fast/easy as having Swift Shot without the invul(as it levels).

I believe the reason that the invul proc chance increases as the level increases instead of decreases is so as to "balance" the skill and FA, and so that even though FA gets stronger by getting higher levels of Swift Shot, FA will not become too strong. This invul is a nerf to stop Swift Shot from being too imba.

Another way you can look at this is maybe also to give ideas to the player on other ways to play FA :)

ya ,except u can leave nova at lvl 1 and max shot ,genious