Terror of the Tides Thread

[McQvaBlood]

This thread is the place to discuss ideas and plans that are somehow related to the Night Elf Expansion Campaign: Terror of the Tides.

I will try to convert this campaign to two player on my own, because a few people have specifically asked me to do this and The_Spoon has decided he would not take this project further than Eternity's End. Please note that I still haven't fully made up my mind and this decision will only be final if I manage to complete the first three or four maps without taking an unnecessarily long time to do so.

I wish to uphold the high standard set up by the two currently finished two player campaigns made by The_Spoon and so I will include all of the systems and features that are present there:

• An extra custom hero for maps where there is only one hero or where there are three heroes at once. (Chapters 1-5)
• Shared techtree [DONE], research systems. [DONE]
• Exchange [WORKING ON IT...] and tribute system. [DONE]
• Rescaled upkeep levels.
• Reduced gathering.
• Code system.

I also have a few ideas of my own that I would like to discuss with you.

• Here are the currently planned abilities of the new custom hero. I am in need of two more abilites, one to replace Shadow Strike and one to replace Vengeance.
• I wish to reintroduce Tomes, but as shared items. I will tell you how this would work. Throughout the campaign, tomes you collect would add up into a counter. All heroes currently controlled by you gain the total of attributes you have collected. So, even though you only get Malfurion and Tyrande on the fifth map, if you have collected four strength and two agility tomes on the previous four maps, both new heroes will start with four extra strength and two extra agility. Similarly, Illidan, who you can only control on the eighth map, will gain all the attributes you have collected by then. This would make tomes more useful, but it wouldn't enlarge the code unnecessarily.

The layout of the campaign is as follows:

• Chapter One = Maiev + Warden
  Chapter Two = Maiev + Warden
  Chapter Three = Maiev + Warden
  Chapter Four = Maiev + Warden
  Chapter Five = Maiev and Malfurion + Warden and Tyrande
  Chapter Six = Maiev + Tyrande (Plus, you get Warden's items.)
  Chapter Seven = Maiev + Malfurion (Plus, you get Tyrande's items.)
  Chapter Eight = Illidan + Malfurion

 

[Lich Prince]

Interesting, I always thought that Naisha was inevitably going to be the second hero in the NE campaign.

As for the Shadow Strike alternative, how about a Forked Shadow Strike with the classic d.o.t. as an extra. My second suggestion for the Shadow Strike alternative is a chain one, also with the classic d.o.t.. However, the Ultimate can't have many variations, so I'm going for a classic Vengeance Metamorphosis. All these abilities are basic and shouldn't require much work (I've always been a big fan for the basic abilities- never liked the fancy eye-candy abilities.).

Deleted previous OT post and posted it here.

 

[McQvaBlood]

@Lich Prince
I cannot use Naisha as the custom hero. Though I originally thought it would inevitably be that way, but...

• We need a custom hero for five levels. I do not wish to create and code two custom heroes.
• Naisha dies halfway through the third map and I do not wish to ruin the lore by somehow saving her.
• I couldn't come up with an at least halfway intelligent method of introducing a new custom hero right after Maiev claims that all her sisters have perished. Instead, the custom Warden hero will have an ability that resembles Blink and simply escapes with her.

You shouldn't limit yourself when planning spells based on what I'm able or what I'm not able to do. I can code very efficiently. I agree with you on the eye-candy and you can be sure that none of the spells will include a great deal of effects as my computer is arguably the worst machine that is through some wonder still functioning and I want to be able to test my maps without lagging.

UPDATE: There is actually no way that Naisha can be present on the fourth map.
The starting cinematic is as follows:
Random Huntress: What happened, Mistress? Where are Naisha and the others?
Maiev: They are lost. Illidan claimed the Eye of Sargeras and used its power to bury our sisters alive.

 

[McQvaBlood]

These are the current abilities of the new Warden hero I'm working on:

100 mana, 10 second cooldown.
The Warden grabs a handful of blades and enchants them to form a shield around a target unit. The blades deal minor damage to units they hit.
Lasts 10 seconds.
Level 1 - Minimum: 2; Maximum: 3; Speed: 500; Damage: 10
Level 2 - Minimum: 2; Maximum: 4; Speed: 600; Damage: 15
Level 3 - Minimum: 2; Maximum: 5; Speed: 700; Damage: 20

This is meant as a replacement for the ladder Fan of Knives. This does not deal damage to structures or air units. Values are not final.

Short distance position switch that allows the Warden to move units in and out of combat.
Level 1 - 10 second cooldown, 50 mana.
Level 2 - 10 second cooldown, 10 mana.
Level 3 - 1 second cooldown, 10 mana.

This is meant as a replacement for the ladder Blink. You may not target air units. Mana and cooldown values are taken directly from the ladder Blink.
Note: I'm planning on disabling the casting of Shift on allied heroes who are channeling. (So you can't be an idiot and stop the Tranquility or Starfall of your allied player.)

Someone mentioned that the new hero should also have Blink. I somewhat agree with that, but I don't want both heroes to be able to Blink freely around the map, so I came up with this. Instead of moving to a position, Shift switches the position of the target unit and the hero.
So on maps where Maiev has to teleport very often, like on The Tomb of Sargeras, the second hero has the option to follow her, but Maiev will have to use Blink twice for both heroes to participate in battles meant to be fought by Maiev only.

As I said, I still need two abilities.
The third ability will replace Shadow Strike. Since our Warden can only target ground with her current attack and spells, I would like this ability to be able to target air and to be somewhat spammable.
The ultimate ability will replace Vengeance.

Nothing is final yet and if the majority really dislikes either spell I will replace it with a new one.

UPDATE#1: I've decided to use Skar's idea for the Blink.

Short distance teleportation that moves the Warden next to a target unit.
Level 1 - 10 second cooldown, 50 mana.
Level 2 - 10 second cooldown, 10 mana.
Level 3 - 1 second cooldown, 10 mana.

 

[Skar]

Glad you liked my ideas McQvaBlood, but why split the heroes on chapter 5? Why don't you leave one player with Tyrande and Malfurion and the other with both Wardens? In this way, players can focus on one thing only (defend the base or reach the base).

Now, the new hero, in my opinion the spells should be focussed in single targets, because Fan of Knives deals a lot of damage in multiple targets. About the new Blink, in parts I agree with you, but I didn't like the switch places, how about make this Blink need a ground unit as target? So you must blink to an allied unit.

She will be able to follow Maiev, but only if Maiev is already there. Otherwise, the new Warden will not be able to follow Maiev in the third chapter.

 

[McQvaBlood]

It's late in the evening and I'm rather sleepy, so excuse me if some of my sentences don't make sense. I really can't tell this late.

I was able to code most of the systems that are present in Spoon's maps, including shared techtree, shared research, tribute and exchange.

I'm a bit disappointed at the moment, though. The triggers in the campaign are alien to me. Not that I can't understand them, but they're coded in such a nasty and inefficient way... I'll have another look at them tomorrow.

Here's a new thing I would like to hear your opinions on: Gold Coins and Bundles of Lumber. I decided to split the gold and lumber you receive between the two players. This is to ensure that players, who can't cooperate very well, don't cripple each other by collecting all the gold. For better players, you will be able to use -gold X and -lumber X.

@Skar
I like your Blink idea. It's much cleaner and does not punish Maiev for no reason. (Because with switch places she had to cast twice her own Blink twice.)

Maiev is always under Player 1 control, while Warden is always under Player 2 control and 1. I don't wish to change that. 2. The fifth map is hard because you have to divide attention between the base and the rescue squad and I do not intend to make it that much easier for you by allowing you to do only one of the two.

 

[Skar]

@McQvaBlood
Fair enough.

But I didn't understand the gold and lumber part. '-'

 

[McQvaBlood]

There are Gold Coins scattered throughout some of the maps.
On chapter four and five they constitute most of your income. However, I don't want one player to be able to collect all the gold and then keep it to himself. So, I will split the gold you receive from Gold Coins. So while normally you would receive 250 gold, you'll both get 125 gold.

However, better players might decide to allow one player to hold all the gold and lumber while the other is doing something else. For these players, the -gold and -lumber commands are available.
(-gold X sends X gold to your ally. (So -gold 125 will send 125 gold to your ally.))

 

[Skar]

Excelent idea McQvaBlood, it will make even easier to pick those resources.

About the new Warden, I think she needs a passive ability, so what about an ability that passively reduces armor of the attacked unit for a few seconds?

One thing to consider about her new Blink, it will need to have a long cast range, otherwise, she will be not capable to follow Maiev in the end of the third chapter.

 

[McQvaBlood]

For Shift, I'm taking stats directly from the ladder Blink. Blink will be much harder to use anyway. (Blink only teleports you to 4/5 its maximum range if you want to blink a longer distance then its maximum range.)

Of course, if she really can't follow Maiev, I'll increase cast range.

I don't know if I really want a passive. I would much more like an activated passive. Also, the armor reduction on attack is already done by Falric, but perhaps we could use poison instead.

For example:
Activated. Enhances your range by 400 and grants you a poison attack. (6/8/10 damage per second, -10%/-15%/-20% attack and movement speed for 3 seconds.) Lasts 4/6/8 attacks.
While this is active, you can also target air.

 

[Skar]

For example:
Activated. Enhances your range by 400 and grants you a poison attack. (6/8/10 damage per second, -10%/-15%/-20% attack and movement speed for 3 seconds.) Lasts 4/6/8 attacks.
While this is active, you can also target air.

Nice idea, but the only way I know you can increase the attack range of an unit is using upgrades and they can't be downgraded, so how you will make the 400 range disappear?

What about a trap for her ultimate? You set the trap, like the Goblin Land Mine, and when it actives, releases a Frost Nova, or mass poison, or mass stun, or something else?

 

[McQvaBlood]

I told you before, you should worry the least about what I can or can't code. I can use dynamic morphing with the help of the Chaos ability to change unit statistics per how I desire.

Traps are rather impractical, though they would definitely fit the prison guarding Warden theme.

 

[Skar]

Oh, sorry, I forgot about morph abilities, so you probably already know that Chaos can bug her armor, but why traps are rather impractical?

 

[Lich Prince]

Yes, traps do fit the Warden theme, but not enough. They fit a Dwarf/Goblin Bomber or Hunter much better.

I'm interested in what variation you're planning to make of Vengeance.

 

[McQvaBlood]

I have finished coding the tome and powerup system and I think you'll love this (new?) feature.

I don't know what her ultimate will be, but I have time enough, I'm not near to releasing anything (yet).
Though I'm definitely making some nice progress.

Tomorrow I'm going to analyze to what extent I'm able to utilize the code system I've downloaded. It's the last missing part of my system of systems.

@Skar: Bug her armor? o0
Traps are impractical, because you can stack them up and because they promote a defensive style of play which is a bit out of place for the Warden, who happens to be offensive.

@Lich: How did you like the variation of Shadow Strike?

 

[Skar]

Chaos has an issue that when you add Chaos to an unit, all its armor bonus will be added to its natural armor. Example:

Unit has 3 armor +3 armor bonus (due to an aura or item). When you add Chaos, the natural armor of that unit will change to 6 (3+3) and so on. That is why Chaos is not a good idea. I tryed that in my map and my hero ended up with 66 of natural armor.

Well, I will try to think on some other skill for the new hero.

 

[McQvaBlood]

I was thinking about ability ideas again and though I've said I don't like Skar' idea for a trap ultimate, I might use it as a simple ability with a duration.

Something along these lines:
Lays a mine on the ground that becomes active and invisible over 4 seconds.
If an enemy unit steps upon it, it explodes, dealing X1/X2/X3 damage to and stunning land units for Y1/Y2/Y3 in an area of 200.
Lasts A seconds. (Around 60-90 seconds.)
Cooldown of A/4 or A/5.

This could also be useful combined with Shift, because you could Shift to mines.
You could also put a Blade Shield around mines if you really wanted to, though I coded Blade Shields so they return to the caster if the target unit dies. (Which in this case would be when the Mine explodes.)

Also, do you like the name Saithis?

UPDATE: I'm getting close to finishing Chapter Two. (No, I haven't started Chapter One yet, but that one shouldn't be too difficult.) If I'm done with both chapters, I might release a beta of them here, so you can... criticize.

 

[Skar]

Saithis is a good name.

I know that a trap is not the best for her ultimate, but I think is the best idea until someone come with a better idea. About the effect, maybe a light damage and an AoE armor reduction (does stacks with Faerie Fire), or slow?

For her third spell, maybe some kind of an active backstab? It's a melee spell (can't target air), that if used from behind, deals a little more damage and has a chance instantly kill that unit (can't kill heroes with this effect).

 

[McQvaBlood]

You misunderstood me, I'm planning on using the Mine spell as a simple spell.

Blade Shield
Shift
Mine Spell
Ultimate (That is somehow related to Vengeance.)

 

[Skar]

Something related to Vengeance...

What about some kind of metamorphoses that transforms her into some kind of nightish stealth chaser? Maybe permanent invisible and moving faster. '-'

 

[McQvaBlood]

Here's a little status report. I'm also writing this little summary here so that I won't forget these until tomorrow.
So I have the first map 90% and the second map 80% done.
I still need to implent the code and powerup system into the first map and I still need to do the same for the second map, along with the shared techtree and upgrades system. These are, however, already done on a separate map, so this shouldn't take very long. There's a bug in my upgrade system that I know of and that I will need to fix, but that ain't anything big either. However, I have not coded -exchange yet.
I need to code the Mine ability and add the new hero in both maps, but I have specifically done the maps in such a way that it shouldn't take very long. (I also need to download and import a hero glow or find a model that could replace the Warden. However, since I couldn't find any, I will use the Assassin model for now.)
I have the insane mode settings done on the first map, however, this is still missing on the second map.
I need to change the upkeep levels to 2 player campaign upkeep levels.

All in all, I believe I may be able to upload two maps here tomorrow or the day after. Without a rank system. I still don't know if I really want to include a rank system in the first release.

As always, feel free to comment.

 

[Skar]

I also need to download and import a hero glow or find a model that could replace the Warden. However, since I couldn't find any, I will use the Assassin model for now.

Here, may be old, but is functional, is the same hero glow I use in my map.

All in all, I believe I may be able to upload two maps here tomorrow or the day after. Without a rank system. I still don't know if I really want to include a rank system in the first release.

I will be waiting for that. =)

 

[McQvaBlood]

I get delayed very often, mainly due to my stupidity. But I'm getting used to coding these maps and once I have a firm style of converting them, I believe production will be quite fast.

I would rather spend a few more days ensuring everything works on the first and second map.

 

[Twizter]

Uh, how about a "Mystic Cage" spell, or banish, or some grappling hook or something. The mine thing just seems so.. meh. As for the Ulti, if your thinking Vengance, then I have two ideas :
1. She turns into some kind of creature (like Illidian)
2. She summons a creature that instead of creating soldiers from corpses, heals troops

 

[TheSpoon]

Hey guys, sorry I've been out of the loop for a while now.
But I'm back and my custom chapter is back on track.
Its great to hear that McQva is really considering doing this : >

Ok my thoughts on the thing:
It might /not/ be too late to think about Naisha,
After all, so far all my custom characters have been based on real lore characters (this doesn't mean this one has to be, but y'know)
Anyway, maybe she could be split up from Maiev, and be given a different path to take.
Although, she still needs to die, and other things.
So its up to you.

As for a possible ulti for this other warden, I don't know if a "Vengeance" transformation would be appropriate, Maiev's spell is a manifestation of her own vengeance, and I can't imagine a sub-character feeling so strongly too xP
A summon might not be appropriate either, after all, Maiev creates many summons with her spell.

I can only think of either an area damage spell, an "assassination" spell, or maybe something that compliments Maiev's summons.

Also McQva, if theres anything you need to know just PM me!

 

[McQvaBlood]

Yeah, well, I haven't had any status reports either lately.

The first two chapters are practically done. I added the new hero but ended up with only two abilities (Since many of you said that the mine ability does not fit her that much.) and one of them bug sometimes and I can't find out why.

If I manage to fix that, I promise I'll really post the beta for the first two maps now, so I can officially take up production by posting the first few maps as proof that I'm doing this.

I'm also somewhat disappointed that I can't use Naisha, but she dies in such an awkward section of the map that I really can't have two heroes for the last few minutes, if I'm to stick to the lore. Maiev leaves Naisha saying that: "My powers will allow me to escape, but I fear there's no way out for the rest of you." She replies: "Go, Mistress! The Godess will light our path to the hereafter." So she can't follow her to the entrance. This is deep down in the Tomb of Sargeras. There's absolutely no way I can get a hero down there halfway through the map. I also thought about splitting the heroes. Maiev flees, while Naisha has to survive against Naga & Tomb Guardians. But then I thought it would be pointless and humiliating to require Naisha to survive against a wave of creeps only to be smashed to death by rocks.

Btw, I think I have an idea for the ultimate.
Channeling. You target an area. An unselectable shadow version of all allied and enemy unit in the area are created, who attack enemy units in the area randomly for 50%~ normal damage. If a unit dies/leaves the area, the shadow associated with that unit disappears. Lasts 15~ seconds.

 

[barowei]

But then I thought it would be pointless and humiliating to require Naisha to survive against a wave of creeps only to be smashed to death by rocks.

Hmm, I think I will interfere here. Why would that have been pointless? In my opinion that makes her sacrifice more important and... personal? I may be wrong - but still you shouldn't reject this idea so fast.

 

[McQvaBlood]

No, what makes it pointless is that no matter how hard she tries, she will get smashed to death by a huge chunk of the ceiling of the Tomb of Sargeras.

I really don't want to make Naisha a hero. I don't feel like I'm able to use that character without disrespecting her lore. And so I shall not.

 

[Princsky]

Hey people im new to this map making thing but for the ulti you coud make an attack which woud like shout an dagger or something and create coppies of your enemies which woud be their shadows to attack the enemy and the enemy had to attack their shadows.
And please dont make Naisha a hero in the campaign because it woud really ruin the story if she survived not only because you woud then have too make changes to the missions with furion and Tirande the story woudnt make any sense wenn you woud have to move her from the game except you make a litle cutscene in which she says something like she has to go get some reinforcemets or something and then i dont know dies ...

 

[McQvaBlood]

If for some reason Naisha becomes a hero, she will die in the Tomb of Sargeras. I have no intention of changing the story.

 

[Princsky]

but then you woud have to put that warden into the game and if you ask for my opinion i think that it woud be better to put a hero at the beggining of the which woud follow Maiev to the End.

 

[McQvaBlood]

Which is the case.
I never wanted Naisha to become a hero.

 

[Princsky]

then everithig is going to be good
so do you have a idea for the ulti?

 

[McQvaBlood]

After much hesitation, I've decided to change the heroes controlled on Chapter Seven from
Maiev + Malfurion to Maiev and Malfurion + New Warden
The second player also gains control of Magroth the Defender if you complete the optional quest.
This is to maintain the control of heroes per players. (Player One always controls Maiev, Malfurion, Player Two always controls Tyrande, NewWarden, if they are available.

This thread is now closed. If you wish to discuss the Sentinel campaign, you can do it here.