Is existence governed by logic?

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

No, seriously.

Someone brought this up and it's been bugging me for a while. So yeah, I'm almost afraid to ask, but what do you people think? The question is pretty much straightforward.

Thoughts?

 

[Snarewave]

Existence governed by logic?

I'm existing cause my parents had sex and my mum gave me birth.
I'm alive cause I eat, I breath, I take dump, Im sheltered with cloth, friends, family, and home.

It's all logical, so I guess your right.

 

[TheDivineBoss]

And there's nothing people can do about it.

 

[Mulgrim]

i wouldn't want it to be governed by illogical means

 

[YourNameHere]

It's all logical, so I guess your right.

 

[YourNameHere]

*loads shotgun and aims at the grammar nazi*

gtfo

You're just jealous.

 

[Kwah]

Cleaned, keep it on-topic in future/etc.

@thread - yes.

 

[Vengeancekael]

Yes, i think

 

[Elenai]

What is logic?

 

[Kwah]

For the purposes of this thread, I'd suggest you use reason.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Why use reason or logic if existence isn't governed by it?

 

[Mulgrim]

...it is

 

[Kwah]

Question: What the hell else would it be governed by?

 

[Mulgrim]

stupidity

oh wait...

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

No, it would simply be random.

 

[Mulgrim]

give us examples that made you believe this, I 'm lost

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Our very existence. How did Earth form? How did life arrive on it? How were *we* formed? Can you really say there was logic to it?

 

[Mulgrim]

dude what the hell, of course there's logic to that, we know this since and from school, though we don't know all the answers, somethings depend on your religious views. if you stab yourself with a knife, it's logical that you will feel pain, it's logical just as everything around you is.

 

[Elenai]

I was serious...

What is "logic"? Afterall, to determine if we are governed by something we should be able to recognize it via how it is defined, no?

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I know you were serious, it's just fun to use it out of context.

 

[Solst1ce]

What is "logic"

Etymological it's deductive reasoning, as the greeks used it that way. The study of reasoning, part of the trivium.

Nowadays being logical commonly means comprehending and applying the correlations of causality to one's reasoning (proven by the posts of the others in this topic).. "simply" stating conclusive arguments, in the premises.

That's how I see it, I'm not quite sure about it, though.

EDIT: Hence you're governed by it. At least it'd be nice if you were, since you are governed by your thoughts (in a way, I assume), may those be logical or not. At least logic helps you to estimate up- and downsides of your possible actions.

 

[Vengeancekael]

Well i agree with Mulgrim in some ways, like scientists say it was a "big bang", others say god just "created" the earth, but it could be, that were supposed to do something in the future.

 

[raid1000]

lets take Einstein for example. He belived that everything is predictable so everything has logic, and he pursued his dream to find out how "god would make a world", god being inteligent being it possessed logic (logic is something like if A=B and B=C that means that A must equal C aswell) but then quantum mechanics came along and said that you cant know for sure what is going on inside an atom and that it is randomly affected. Einstein excluded this theory saying that "god does not throw dice" but hey quantum mechanics is like the main focus of physicians nowadays

so in conclusion, life is just too complex
and reason and logic is just difficult to explain because well you use logic and reason to explain logic and reason which would give you headaches

And if you still have a headache

ASK THE ARCHITECT

It is simple, God is everything, God is not a person, it's not a being, God is everything around you, you are God, God is the spark that started the Big Bang, for God is the Big Bang

E=mc^2, m=E/c^2, E is God, if E is 0, you dont have mass nor energy, so you dont have you or me or trees in the park, and because there is a crapload of mass in the universe, we just say E=infinity so God is infinity, m=infinity/c^2 which gives a good quantity of mass, enough to fill up the universe, and i used logic for that one lol

anyways "c" the speed of light is chuck norris

 

[Elenai]

Logic might be something incredibly simple...

"What works = Logic"

In the broadest sense of the idea anyway.

Then again I would go so far as to propose this...

We are governed not by Logic but instead by "What is", Logic is merely one way with which we perceive [quantify, express, acknowledge, define] this "is" ("is" being Reality).

 

[Solst1ce]

Sounds rather reasonable, indeedm Elenai..

Yet, if logic is merely a way we perceive what actually is, wouldn't it be somewhat "excessive" that we are trying to reason with logic about what is?

It's somehow a closed circle, but not one of the sort I like nor one that actually reveals anything. Maybe I've taken the wrong turn.. Enlighten me.

 

[Elenai]

If there is anything I've learned about nature, it is that almost always it involves a cycle.

Logic is a sentient invention. It is a way in which we describe the nature of what 'is', in just the same way that science is the study of what 'is'.

Both are not the governing bodies, merely the metaphors used to describe the functions of the actual body that governs it, and a means of predicting nature's cyclic-tic course, and attempting to reason in our limited minds the vast span of 'is' into a more easily digestible morsel.

In my opinion anyway...

To illustrate it in a broad sort of way:

1+1=2 logically, but it is not Logic that is the root of why 1+1=2, merely that it simply 'is' in reality...that 1+1 simply = 2, because 2 'is' 1 and 1 together by its very nature.

 

[WhitePhoenix]

Firstly. Formal Logic (Aristotlian Logic) is inherently flawed. (google fundamental theorm of mathematics)

Therefore, to proclaim that existence is governed by formal logic is to say the universe also is inherently flawed.

Mathematics does pull a lot of its traits from Aristotlian Logic, but it is not logic.

1+1=2 is not proovable. It's a numerical abstraction of innovation. Likewise, we can also guess that the universe is more then likely not governed by Mathematics either, but more so that Mathematics has the potential (meaning this is not necessarily true) to "describe" the Universe.

As for a set of rules that formulate and dictate the universe, the branches of Physics and Chemistry are the general fields to obtain answers to these questions.


Now, if you're defining logic in your own fancy way (ahem.. most of you) then who can say. But I can pretty much guarentee your definition of logic is more then worthless, especially this one: "What Works = Logic" . . . (that goes against the denotation of the word logic..)

Which encase you don't agree here is the definition of logic:

the branch of philosophy that analyzes inference
reasoned and reasonable judgment; "it made a certain kind of logic"
the principles that guide reasoning within a given field or situation; "economic logic requires it"; "by the logic of war"
the system of operations performed by a computer that underlies the machine's representation of logical operations
a system of reasoning
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

For more evidence AGANIST that lovely connotation of logic quoted above: How do you develope a syllogism with that?

The Car runs. Fact.
Therefore the car is logic.

....

As an after thought, I would like to state that even with logic (the system of reasoning) that still requires you at most points to create assumptions. Thus leaving you with the only option of "prooving" your assumptions with induction. (Or just let people assume the assumptions are proof . .)

 

[Hoernchen]

Is it not much more 'logical' that logic is governed by existence. Everything we perceive as logical we do so because we see it so. It is logical to say that a body with a mass attracts things around it, because this is a basic law of physics. However, the same thing would not apply if gravity didn't exist.

The logical conclusions sentient beings derive are based on laws that EXIST in our universe (maybe even outside of it) and not vice versa. Something that we can not apply a law to or cannot predict in any way seems random and illogical, that is until we can apply rules to it, at which point we suddenly deem it logical and not so random.

I dare guess that in fact nothing in this universe is random in the slightest. Random is simply a word we use to describe an outcome that we cannot predict with the tools at our disposal. If randomness did exist then we couldn't apply the laws of physics. After all E = mc^2 all the time and not randomly.

Since nothing in the universe is random, that leads to the conclusion that everything follows rules. Once something follows a rule, it can be observed and if the observation states that it follows said rule, it may be said that the observed process is logical.

You could use this to claim that logic governs existence but keep in mind that logic is a sentient tool used to observe existence and nothing more. Also, if logic governs existence, would that not mean that illogical things are non-existent?

 

[ubran]

This is gonna bring back the braincellfrying goodness of TIP for me (whooo Duke West, west is best, east is least, go neuro!), but I'd like to insert my $0.02. Existence is an abstract idea, created by logic. Logic tells us that if we are made of matter, or part of this plane of existence, we exist. On that line of thinking, the abstract idea of existence does not truly exist, so is logic truly logical? If we apply the theory that existence doesn't exist so logic is illogical, we might as well divide by 0 and have the mathematical portion of our brains all melt and drip out of our left ear and run down the sides of our face onto our soontobe drool-covered computer desks. If we assume that existence does exist because it is an idea written down and thought about, then we can argue that existence exists because it is in the ink/graphite used to write it our the chemical signals used to think about it, or we can change our meaning of existence to wrap around abstract ideas by saying to exist is to be a physical object or to be a mental idea. But if that is true, then everything we ever think about or imagine that isn't real exists, though logic (and our psychiatrists/ parents) tells us they don't exist. So, if existence doesn't exist according to logic, logic can't govern existence, and if existence exists, then logic contradicts itself and existence is again questionable.

Like I said at the beginning, braincellfrying.

 

[Boris_Spider]

So far it looks like people have been refering to various definitions of logic. I'm not agreeing with Elanai in regards to asking for a definition of logic, as defining logic becomes a subjective matter.
The basis of that view depends on the background of the person who's defining the concept. (e.g. Elanai has a Christian or Catholic background, so his interpretations are significantly influenced by his bible; my background has had religious influences, but those are a result of the culture (or lack thereof) that I participate in. So instead of relying on a specific book/story, I generalize the topic in question so as to allow for other possibilities.) Then you have a practically indefinate number of variations as a result of each individual's PoV. (despite common assumptions, people are only alike in that they're not alike).

Since people apply logic to everything, their existance is governed by logic. I agree with the counteraguement in that some people are just stupid or incapable of logic, but technically their logic, however illogical it may be, is still logic as far as they're concerned.

//\\oo//\\

 

[Crabby_Spider]

Is existence governed by logic?

Existence
–noun 1. the state or fact of existing; being.
2. continuance in being or life; life: a struggle for existence.
3. mode of existing: They were working for a better existence.
4. all that exists: Existence shows a universal order.
5. something that exists; entity; being.


Govern
–verb (used with object) 1. to rule over by right of authority: to govern a nation.
2. to exercise a directing or restraining influence over; guide: the motives governing a decision.
3. to hold in check; control: to govern one's temper.
4. to serve as or constitute a law for: the principles governing a case.
5. Grammar. to be regularly accompanied by or require the use of (a particular form). In They helped us, the verb helped governs the objective case of the pronoun we.
6. to regulate the speed of (an engine) with a governor.

Logic
–noun 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.
3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move.
5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.
6. Computers. logic circuit.

The answer is yes.

Is it governed by your logic? No, although sometimes yours is.
Is logic the only thing that governs existence? No.

Logic governs existence, as does chance or free-will. The degree to which each of those influences, is what keeps it interesting, and worth being around for. The roller-coaster would be much more thrilling if you didn't know what the next turn was, or where you'd end up, or how long it would last. But even knowing those things it can still be fun.
So life is the ultimate coaster. Throw your hands up, scream once in a while, know that it takes a while to reach the peaks, and you speed through the lows. Whatever forces may be, we're just here for the ride.


//\\òó//\\

 

[Devine]

What is "existence"?

 

[Crabby_Spider]

What is "existence"?

I would use the second definition above, as the others use the word exist in the definition.

//\\òó//\\

 

[Phoonix]

what IS existence a very good question. Do we at all exist? now most of you would say yes, but why? has anyone thought about that yet? we must exist otherwise we wouldn't be here. Yes but what is Here? where is here? these are questions we will never know the answer to thus pointless to ask. Is existence governed by logic? if i must answer i must say NO. NO! NO! and NO! whit is logic to one might bi illogical to another. and we all do Illogical things everyday. Why do you go to school? because the law tells you so But then you might ask. who made these laws what gave him the right do do so? why do we have to listen to HIM. why is HE the boss of us? the answer to that question is fear, or that is how it started out. one person grabbed control made rules and whoever didn't obey these rules was killed. People HAD to obey these rules because they didn't want to end up dead and eventually this evolved into our current system of laws and whatnot we have today. why is that logical? why did the person who made these laws deserve to be more than us? why did he do it? it is all illogical thus existence is not governed by logic.

Kind regards,
Yours Phoonix.

 

[Elenai]

Existence: To be

 

[The Reborn Devil]

To exist is basically being here. Where is here? Here is Earth. Where is Earth? It's in the Universe. Wtf is the Universe. It's everything, meaning whether you're in the toilet taking a crap or sitting in front of the computer you're in the universe as well as being a part of it. F.ex. if the Universe was a football and the air inside it were humans, no matter where you are you're still a part of it and being inside it (which is very logical). What is logic? Logic is the art and science of reasoning which seeks to identify and understand the principles of valid demonstration and inference.

 

[ubran]

what IS existence a very good question. Do we at all exist? now most of you would say yes, but why? has anyone thought about that yet? we must exist otherwise we wouldn't be here. Yes but what is Here? where is here? these are questions we will never know the answer to thus pointless to ask. Is existence governed by logic? if i must answer i must say NO. NO! NO! and NO! whit is logic to one might bi illogical to another. and we all do Illogical things everyday. Why do you go to school? because the law tells you so But then you might ask. who made these laws what gave him the right do do so? why do we have to listen to HIM. why is HE the boss of us? the answer to that question is fear, or that is how it started out. one person grabbed control made rules and whoever didn't obey these rules was killed. People HAD to obey these rules because they didn't want to end up dead and eventually this evolved into our current system of laws and whatnot we have today. why is that logical? why did the person who made these laws deserve to be more than us? why did he do it? it is all illogical thus existence is not governed by logic.

Kind regards,
Yours Phoonix.

I'm probably gonna sound insane for saying this, but existence is not what it seems in the Matrix... Everybody may actually be in a dreamstate replicated by machine closely resembling the early 21st century.

On another note, to support my arguement that sometimes logic doesn't agree with logic, I'll show you a mathematical statement and it's inverse..
If today is Friday, it isn't Thursday. For everyone without a mental health problem (no offense intended) that makes perfect sense, because Thursday and Friday are different days, but:
The inverse of that is if today isn't Friday, today IS Thursday, which goes against what we know about there being 5 other days in the week it could be. Of course, you have to take into account this math statement leaves out the other 5 days so for all the statement is concerned, only Thursday and Friday exist.
So, logic can dispute our previous logic, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we trust ourselves to logic entirely we'll get a big fat E on our calculators (because they're too onesided) eventually and have problems, so maybe logic doesn't govern existence. Maybe without logic, existence could... exist?... and still work, just be totally random, more like bioligical trial and error in Darwinian evolution. It is quite possible that human's just randomly got reasoning skills, but how did they evolve out of chemical reaction that create reflexes simply as a way to survive.. When did humans become proactive and start making instead of being part of the consumer chain? It does seem to be an advantage, so they would live better, but why couldn't it have happened in other species? All of my logic doesn't believe that what I've been taught to be logical could answer my questions.

Anyone wanna provide some enlightenment?

 

[Boris_Spider]

I'm probably gonna sound insane for saying this, but existence is not what it seems in the Matrix... Everybody may actually be in a dreamstate replicated by machine closely resembling the early 21st century.

On another note, to support my arguement that sometimes logic doesn't agree with logic, I'll show you a mathematical statement and it's inverse..
If today is Friday, it isn't Thursday. For everyone without a mental health problem (no offense intended) that makes perfect sense, because Thursday and Friday are different days, but:
The inverse of that is if today isn't Friday, today IS Thursday, which goes against what we know about there being 5 other days in the week it could be. Of course, you have to take into account this math statement leaves out the other 5 days so for all the statement is concerned, only Thursday and Friday exist.
So, logic can dispute our previous logic, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we trust ourselves to logic entirely we'll get a big fat E on our calculators (because they're too onesided) eventually and have problems, so maybe logic doesn't govern existence. Maybe without logic, existence could... exist?... and still work, just be totally random, more like bioligical trial and error in Darwinian evolution. It is quite possible that human's just randomly got reasoning skills, but how did they evolve out of chemical reaction that create reflexes simply as a way to survive.. When did humans become proactive and start making instead of being part of the consumer chain? It does seem to be an advantage, so they would live better, but why couldn't it have happened in other species? All of my logic doesn't believe that what I've been taught to be logical could answer my questions.

Anyone wanna provide some enlightenment?

Logic is relative...

You forgot to add that Today is BOTH Friday and Thursday as long as your... equations?... equal each other. (If today is Friday, then it's not Thursday. If today is Thursday, then today is not Friday).

There's your enlightenment. :
Now, how is my equation false and how is it true?

//\\o0//\\

 

[Mulgrim]

well done devine, 6 people have fallen to your trap

 

[Boris_Spider]

well done devine, 6 people have fallen to your trap

lmao...

//\\^^//\\

 

[Elenai]

You forgot to add that Today is BOTH Friday and Thursday as long as your... equations?... equal each other. (If today is Friday, then it's not Thursday. If today is Thursday, then today is not Friday).

Well, technically....with timezones....it is possible for the planet to be in a state of being in the midst of two days at once.

 

[Devine]

well done devine, 6 people have fallen to your trap

WTF? I wasn't even setting a trap. I was just laughing at mr. Leanel.

 

[Mulgrim]

oh, maybe im just paranoid

 

[Crabby_Spider]

oh, maybe im just paranoid

Hence the disguise on your Avatar... and we certainley don't recognize you

OT: I think the vagueness of the question is what allows all these tangent remarks and questions. The devil is in the details as they say.

//\\òó//\\

 

[ubran]

More ramblings from a(n arguably) logical (in)sanity

Logic is relative...

You forgot to add that Today is BOTH Friday and Thursday as long as your... equations?... equal each other. (If today is Friday, then it's not Thursday. If today is Thursday, then today is not Friday).

There's your enlightenment. :
Now, how is my equation false and how is it true?

//\\o0//\\

Of course I left out the contrapositive. I am allowed to purposefully leave out things that disprove me, yes? Just like AT&T's 3g commercials, baduh tsh.

If you do consider the contrapositive as a senseable opposite of my statement "If today = Friday, Today ≠ Thursday" then fine, but Mathematical logic still fits like a square peg in a round hole. The contrapositive is both flipping the statement and inverting it, so it's easy to manipulate to fit our prior logic. Now imagine I had said "If today is Friday, it IS Thursday." Math then says Friday = Thursday, but that can only happen as Elenai said in the middle of the Pacific Ocean! Mindboggling..

Of course, logic is open for interpretation and my challenging attitude towards people imposing multiple perspectives on me has probably negatively affected my own viewpoint. I think I'll stick to the logic garnered through my scientific background closely tied to Christianity.
The Big Bang made the world, and God made the Big Bang. Sure, we evolved from microscopic lifeforms, but why? What outside force could have changed simple protozoans into freethinking sentient beings? Only He could have. Why can we as humans think of things as abstract as this? Where is the ecological advantage? I highly believe God created science, so why do the two fight so often?

 

[Snarewave]

You people think too hard, just google it.

 

[Crabby_Spider]

You people think too hard, just google it.

That's even scarier, existence governed by Google.

No thanks, I'll think for myself, even when it hurts.

 

[raid1000]

Of course I left out the contrapositive. I am allowed to purposefully leave out things that disprove me, yes? Just like AT&T's 3g commercials, baduh tsh.

If you do consider the contrapositive as a senseable opposite of my statement "If today = Friday, Today ≠ Thursday" then fine, but Mathematical logic still fits like a square peg in a round hole. The contrapositive is both flipping the statement and inverting it, so it's easy to manipulate to fit our prior logic. Now imagine I had said "If today is Friday, it IS Thursday." Math then says Friday = Thursday, but that can only happen as Elenai said in the middle of the Pacific Ocean! Mindboggling..

Of course, logic is open for interpretation and my challenging attitude towards people imposing multiple perspectives on me has probably negatively affected my own viewpoint. I think I'll stick to the logic garnered through my scientific background closely tied to Christianity.
The Big Bang made the world, and God made the Big Bang. Sure, we evolved from microscopic lifeforms, but why? What outside force could have changed simple protozoans into freethinking sentient beings? Only He could have. Why can we as humans think of things as abstract as this? Where is the ecological advantage? I highly believe God created science, so why do the two fight so often?

protozoans are unicelluar so they dont have a nervous system so they dont have "freethinking". Only man has freethinking because he has a huge brain, so he has more neurons, so besides neurons that control locomotion, vision, the senses in general, we also have some free neurons that can do the freethinking

and about god making the big bang? maybe god IS the big bang
maybe there was some kind of epic battle between two gods. One of them died and assploded into the big bang!!11

 

[Boris_Spider]

...Only man has freethinking because he has a huge brain, ...

Ya... about that.
~Elephants brains> Human brains
~Whale brains>Human brains
~Dolphin brains>Human brains

According to your logic, Elephants, Whales, and Dolphins are more 'freethinking' than we are. They are also smarter than us too...

//\\0o//\\

 

[ubran]

See, I know the "how" of philosophical though, but the "why" escapes me.. That's why I believe God put us here.. nothing else seems to fit once you start poking around the whys and the whatfors. Silly one-sided scientists only worried about how stuff works. I must admit, This has changed from the original question. Can we get back to it?

Existence is only defined by logic. In no way, shape, or form can we as humans imagine something to govern what governs us.. That makes an infinite loop of, "... but it makes sense to me, so it's right and you're wrong!" which is the problem with today's youth. Trust me, bad road to follow.