The EU debate thread

[Nuclear]

Discuss the European Union. Do you think your country should stay/join it, and why? Etc.

 

[GhostWolf]

You sure do love to open useless threads where most of the responders know nothing about the subject, including you, eh?

 

[Nuclear]

How dare you question my expertise. But to answer the question: yes.

 

[Xonok]

It's just an imperialist superstate that tries to colonize countries through economic means. I wish my country would leave it (prices increased greatly when we joined, but without any apparent benefit to economy).

 

[Deleted member 238589]

@Xonok: Well, the way you put it, it sounds a bit extreme.
I'm against it, however, since the unemployment in my country increased ever since we started the process of joining the EU. That's one among many reasons.

 

[gorillabull]

well the whole point of the eu is to unite a lot of countries so that they can compete with larger countries like the us and russia economically right?

 

[rulerofiron99]

It's basically the Third Reich. Merkel is succeeding where Hitler failed.

 

[Xonok]

Is USA a country or an alliance? Considering the supreme power that the congress has there it is rather a country.
EU is a bit less unified, but going in the same direction.
Sure, there are practical advantages (Russia less likely to invade... Oh wait), but mostly the advantages are the same kind and for the same people as they always are in larger countries.

The economic part of the joining process is meant to work the same way that a large company like coca-cola can and does destroy competition - driving prices so low(benefits high, if a country) that no one can stay in profit. Then when the competition is gone the rates become normal or perhaps even higher. The reason a large country/company can do it is that this kind of colonization isn't tolling for them as a whole and that they can cash in later.

 

[Aeroblyctos]

I think Finland should join that Russian's Union - whatever name it had. It has a very sexy purple flag.

 

[Heinvers]

I think Finland should join that Russian's Union

After resisting valiantly again Russia in WWII you would do that?

Traitor to the Finnish people you are ;b

 

[VeljkoM]

After resisting valiantly again Russia in WWII you would do that?

Traitor to the Finnish people you are ;b

Same could be said about everyone else in EU cooperating with Germany!

Ok on more serious note...I have no idea if joining EU is bad or good I just doubt it will miraculously fix everything in my nation if we join. I do suspect by the time we join EU, it will disintegrate.

 

[Dr Super Good]

UK should leave EU purely because of the nonsense EU is coming up with.
Vacuum cleaners cannot use more than X Watts!
Bananas can only look like X!
Potatoes cannot be bigger than X mm in size!

What a load of rubbish. I want to use a 2kw vacuum cleaner and eat massive potatoes with bananas that look strange!

 

[Deleted member 238589]

@Dr Super Good: Agreed, but there are far worse things to consider.

 

[Nuclear]

Are tabloids your primary source for information about EU regulations? The vacuum regulation doesn't mean that someone is going to steal your vacuum, it means that designers and manufacturers have to develop more efficient designs to save energy.

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-vacuum-cleaners-daily-mail-energy-efficiency

The reality is that this is a tabloid-induced summer storm that has little to do with cleaners and everything to do with political vacuums – and the right of the right to be as thick as it likes. The idea behind the – albeit Orwellian-sounding – Ecodesign for Energy-Using Products and Energy Labelling directives is to make the world's designers come up with machines that need less power, make less noise and cost less to run. Which sound pretty reasonable ambitions as long as the new machines continue to do their jobs efficiently. All vacuum-cleaner makers, including Sir James Dyson, as well as most fridge, washing machine and telly makers, have known about this directive for years and have quite easily adapted their models. Just a few Brits, it seems, demand the right to ignore labels showing how much money they can save and to carry on using obsolete, super-powered machines.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The vacuum regulation doesn't mean that someone is going to steal your vacuum, it means that designers and manufacturers have to develop more efficient designs to save energy.

Except the laws of physics kind of dictate that... You see if you were to make a 4w vacuum cleaner (yes only 4w, less than a light globe) the maximum air flow from it might be enough to be felt on your hand. With a very tiny nozel it might make a suction. Now it will only take you 1,000 times longer to clean your home.... Oh wait if you have a 4,000w vacuum cleaner you could clean your home in 1/1000 of the time!

Moving air will always be energy intensive, especially against a gradient. The fact is you will not get any energy saving from it as people will just need to vacuum longer as everything is made smaller or less dirt is removed per unit time.

This is why people with law degrees should not be above governments. Stupid idiots. Now all vacuum cleaners will be bloody useless and need you to spend most of your free time cleaning the home.

Oh it does not end there. They plan on making vacuum cleaners use even less power in the future and eventually even less than 1kw. It might be more efficient then to actually blow the dirt out the carpets with a compressor or even a common air circulation fan as that will probably produce more airflow.

Next they will say ovens cannot use more than 400w because that is enough to make something hot, good luck cooking food! Or your car cannot go faster than 10km/h because at that speed you can go over 1,000 miles per gallon, why even use one? Or that computers cannot run faster than 1GHz because power consumption increases as a square of clock frequency, welcome to 1998!

Do you want to be stuck playing games from before 2000? Do you want to use a vaccum cleaner which might as well be an asthmatic sucking through a straw? Well that is what the EU wants and why the UK and all other major companies (UK, Germany and France) should either force them to change or make their own union and shove the EU.

Oh let us not forget how according to the EU, EU citizens can come to the UK and take what they want! Yes, thousands of foreigners are moving to the UK just to claim benefits because they "cannot work" and they are not even living here as they spend all the money in their home country. Yes the EU is forcing the UK to do that even though they are not even their own citizens. Why does the UK allow it? Well the EU is forcing them to otherwise it will file human rights violations against them.

Just like murderers have to be allowed to vote, old age pensioners can starve and freeze to death but criminals cannot and it is perfectly fine to spread messages of hatred as long as you are a refugee and your home country will arrest you.

 

[Footman16]

We'll I disagree, Britain should remain in the EU but we need to actually use our political power and status to do some good which is something David Cameron is inept at; just like everything else. Come May General Elections, we'll be all good.

 

[Boris_Spider]

We'll I disagree, Britain should remain in the EU but we need to actually use our political power and status to do some good which is something David Cameron is inept at; just like everything else. Come May General Elections, we'll be all good.

There's a particular music line that comes to mind:

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." I think it's from The Who song Won't Get Fooled Again.

@Topic:
The only way the EU will survive is if all the members unite against something else. There's a reason we in the US have always been at war (officially or not) with a country, company, religion, skin-color, or idea.

//\\oo//\\

 

[Footman16]

There's a particular music line that comes to mind:

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss." I think it's from The Who song Won't Get Fooled Again.

@Topic:
The only way the EU will survive is if all the members unite against something else. There's a reason we in the US have always been at war (officially or not) with a country, company, religion, skin-color, or idea.

//\\oo//\\

Lol, that has to be the worst a) Analogy and b) "tactic/advice" ever.

 

[Nuclear]

Except the laws of physics kind of dictate that... You see if you were to make a 4w vacuum cleaner (yes only 4w, less than a light globe) the maximum air flow from it might be enough to be felt on your hand. With a very tiny nozel it might make a suction. Now it will only take you 1,000 times longer to clean your home.... Oh wait if you have a 4,000w vacuum cleaner you could clean your home in 1/1000 of the time!

Moving air will always be energy intensive, especially against a gradient. The fact is you will not get any energy saving from it as people will just need to vacuum longer as everything is made smaller or less dirt is removed per unit time.

This is why people with law degrees should not be above governments. Stupid idiots. Now all vacuum cleaners will be bloody useless and need you to spend most of your free time cleaning the home.

Oh it does not end there. They plan on making vacuum cleaners use even less power in the future and eventually even less than 1kw. It might be more efficient then to actually blow the dirt out the carpets with a compressor or even a common air circulation fan as that will probably produce more airflow.

Next they will say ovens cannot use more than 400w because that is enough to make something hot, good luck cooking food! Or your car cannot go faster than 10km/h because at that speed you can go over 1,000 miles per gallon, why even use one? Or that computers cannot run faster than 1GHz because power consumption increases as a square of clock frequency, welcome to 1998!

Do you want to be stuck playing games from before 2000? Do you want to use a vaccum cleaner which might as well be an asthmatic sucking through a straw? Well that is what the EU wants and why the UK and all other major companies (UK, Germany and France) should either force them to change or make their own union and shove the EU.

Oh let us not forget how according to the EU, EU citizens can come to the UK and take what they want! Yes, thousands of foreigners are moving to the UK just to claim benefits because they "cannot work" and they are not even living here as they spend all the money in their home country. Yes the EU is forcing the UK to do that even though they are not even their own citizens. Why does the UK allow it? Well the EU is forcing them to otherwise it will file human rights violations against them.

Just like murderers have to be allowed to vote, old age pensioners can starve and freeze to death but criminals cannot and it is perfectly fine to spread messages of hatred as long as you are a refugee and your home country will arrest you.

Nice rant, actually can't tell if trolling. Again, it's about energy efficiency. To spell it out for you: bad design = more energy for less results, good design = more results with less energy.

Also the companies have knows this beforehand, the only ones complaining are retarded Daily Mail readers.

The regulation doesn't even apply to industrial and commercial appliances, so it's frankly fairly idiotic to suggest that you can't buy a vacuum powerful enough to clean your home (or maybe you just have really thick carpets).

 

[Boris_Spider]

Lol, that has to be the worst a) Analogy and b) "tactic/advice" ever.

A) To be fair I'm not very familiar with the UK politics, but I doubt its really different from how things are done in the US. The replacements turn out to be the same as their predecessors - everything is party-oriented, not goal oriented.

B) How was that tatic/advice? I agree that it's a sad state of affairs... but different groups won't work together for very long or very well unless they have a reason for it. The typical reason consists of "immediate danger" which can easily be fabricated.

//\\oo//\\

 

[Footman16]

(or maybe you just have really thick carpets).

Thick? The guy must have raw Sheep Wool for carpets.

About point a) Barrack and Rommney seemed like two very different people. There will always be a difference between leaders.

b) Maybe, maybe not. Politicians are not so naive as to not work together because... reasons.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Nice rant, actually can't tell if trolling. Again, it's about energy efficiency. To spell it out for you: bad design = more energy for less results, good design = more results with less energy.

To spell it out to you, less power = less work. Something that is 100% efficient at 1kw does produce the same work as something that is 50% efficient at 2kw, yes. However something at 1kw that is 90% efficient does not produce the same work as something that is 2kw and 80% efficient. This is why a 1w lamp will never be able to illuminate and entire factory floor as there is just not enough power.

Yes efficiency is good however do you not think Vacuum cleaner manufacturers have not already tried that? Many countries already gave incentives for greener vacuum cleaners with energy ratings, tax exemptions etc. Ever wondered why they still used so much power? Probably has something to do with how a vacuum cleaner works.

The only part you can fundamentally make more efficient is the power to air flow conversion rate. However I am pretty sure vacuum cleaners already do that pretty efficiently so there is not much to be gained there. The only result is that they will have to reduce the flow rate of air, or make the area being cleaned (the footprint of the nozzle or whatever) smaller. Less air flow rate means less cleaning as it will not be able to suck up all the dirt. Smaller nozzle means less area cleaned per unit time meaning more time which means you have not gained any efficiency at all and wasted more people's time.

The regulation doesn't even apply to industrial and commercial appliances, so it's frankly fairly idiotic to suggest that you can't buy a vacuum powerful enough to clean your home (or maybe you just have really thick carpets).

The cleaner I currently use is just too power for the limit. As such it has been discontinued. It works very well and allows you to clean a carpet quickly.

Maybe you just live in a clean sterile household where you spend 24/7 vacuuming and polishing. However in this home I have 8 cats which make a ton of fur. And cat fur is not the easiest to vacuum up. As such a lot of suction power is needed which means either a small footprint (impractical as this is not a 1 room apartment) or a more powerful motor which is no longer allowed.

The fact is how dare people who have no idea about vacuum cleaner design, or anything for that mater, dictate what or what is not allowed in countries they practically never visit.

I was being very serious about these...

Oh let us not forget how according to the EU, EU citizens can come to the UK and take what they want! Yes, thousands of foreigners are moving to the UK just to claim benefits because they "cannot work" and they are not even living here as they spend all the money in their home country. Yes the EU is forcing the UK to do that even though they are not even their own citizens. Why does the UK allow it? Well the EU is forcing them to otherwise it will file human rights violations against them.

Just like murderers have to be allowed to vote, old age pensioners can starve and freeze to death but criminals cannot and it is perfectly fine to spread messages of hatred as long as you are a refugee and your home country will arrest you.

It has reached the state that old age pensioners in the UK try and commit crimes just to end up in prison because they cannot afford to eat and heat their home. Prisons are forced by the EU to be very well heated feed their inmates sufficient food as otherwise it is a "human rights violation" and the inmates can sue through the EU for huge compensation amounts.

Let us not forget all the thieves from various EU countries that are pooling around London. Not only are they here to claim benefits, but also they can steal huge amounts off people. Scrap metal, smart phones, anything not tied down with a value, you name it and they will take it. Oh and the people cannot be deported as they are from the EU!

 

[Nuclear]

Prisons are forced by the EU to be very well heated feed their inmates sufficient food as otherwise it is a "human rights violation" and the inmates can sue through the EU for huge compensation amounts.

So not being able to freeze inmates to death or starve them = horrible injustice by EU.

Confirmed troll.

 

[VeljkoM]

So not being able to freeze inmates to death or starve them = horrible injustice by EU.

Confirmed troll.

He isn't troll, he is just wasting his time trying to explain something to people who aren't capable of understanding. Honestly don't you know to whom you are talking to? Unless you are a troll yourself which would be more logical.

Besides his point was that life for law abiding citizens is potentially worse than life of the criminals which is serious issue in modern society. Prisons should be something you want to avoid and not actively seek out. If that is justice then life of crime is better life career and we are all wasting our lives by being lawful.

As for the immigrant issue I don't know how bad it is in UK but probably same as in other more developed EU countries such as France, Germany and Scandinavian nations (seriously just check the numbers). This hurts people who are citizens in those nations and also hurts countries that are gradually losing population. The only one who has benefit are the immigrants and the states themselves since they receive free (hey dhey didn't have to spend an euro or any effort on their education) workers that are wiling to work for less then the actual citizen.

 

[Dr Super Good]

As for the immigrant issue I don't know how bad it is in UK but probably same as in other more developed EU countries such as France, Germany and Scandinavian nations (seriously just check the numbers).

The problem is slightly worse in the UK as the UK is quite socialist offering its people many services and benefits for free. Examples include the healthcare system (most health care here is "free") and the unemployment benefits/job seekers allowance (free house, monthly pay). Under EU law these have to be offered to every citizen of the EU who is in the country. This means that a lot of EU people are flying to the UK just to receive the "free" medical treatment from the NHS and to get "free" money and houses from the unemployment benefits/job seekers allowance. Further more none of this is back-charged to the country of origin, meaning that the UK tax payer is having to pay for all of it.

The UK is trying to pass laws to limit this to those who are resident in the country and that unemployment benefits/job seekers allowance will only be offered for up to 6 months for EU citizens (non UK) unless permanent employment is found. However the EU is heavily opposing this, trying to over-rule them.

The UK is not the only country with such a problem although it has it by far the worst due to its socialist nature. Some other country recently has also introduced similar laws (which the EU is opposing) for the similar reason of people moving to the country just to get something more than they would in their own country for nothing.

 

[Nuclear]

He isn't troll, he is just wasting his time trying to explain something to people who aren't capable of understanding. Honestly don't you know to whom you are talking to?

Clearly I just can't understand his superior logic when I disagree with him. And no, I don't really know much about this DSG, except that he's apparently a long-time user and well liked here, but I don't see how that makes his opinion more correct.

Besides his point was that life for law abiding citizens is potentially worse than life of the criminals which is serious issue in modern society. Prisons should be something you want to avoid and not actively seek out. If that is justice then life of crime is better life career and we are all wasting our lives by being lawful.

Prison conditions and the living standards of the poor are completely separate issues. Also I though it was common knowledge that treating prisoners like humans leads to smaller recidivism rates (and thus reducing crime related expenses to society), so freezing people as a method of punishment would be fairly stupid.

 

[VeljkoM]

Clearly I just can't understand his superior logic when I disagree with him. And no, I don't really know much about this DSG, except that he's apparently a long-time user and well liked here, but I don't see how that makes his opinion more correct.

It isn't mater of disagreeing, it is that your counter arguments are either attacking his integrity by calling him a troll or giving small response to one selected point he made. If he is correct about law and politics or not I do not know but for tech I believe he has credentials and knows what he is talking about. Oh and him being here long time isn't a factor at all. I also don't see him making any remark against your integrity at all and is far better at present an argument.

Prison conditions and the living standards of the poor are completely separate issues. Also I though it was common knowledge that treating prisoners like humans leads to smaller recidivism rates, so freezing people as a method of punishment would be fairly stupid.

They are separate issues yes but it was you who ignored one issue and attacked the other. It should still be a big issue that prisons are something you want to get in to. What is the point of punishment then? I also doubt people are happy that their tax money is used to make criminals comfortable. And if that common knowledge was true then wouldn't there be a lot less crime in the world. It just results that crime does pay. Though I feel this is off topic and I don't feel like I am best person for making these arguments. Better return to EU topic but if you really want to respond to me send in pm if that is ok?

 

[Footman16]

The problem is slightly worse in the UK as the UK is quite socialist offering its people many services and benefits for free. Examples include the healthcare system (most health care here is "free") and the unemployment benefits/job seekers allowance (free house, monthly pay). Under EU law these have to be offered to every citizen of the EU who is in the country. This means that a lot of EU people are flying to the UK just to receive the "free" medical treatment from the NHS and to get "free" money and houses from the unemployment benefits/job seekers allowance. Further more none of this is back-charged to the country of origin, meaning that the UK tax payer is having to pay for all of it.

The UK is trying to pass laws to limit this to those who are resident in the country and that unemployment benefits/job seekers allowance will only be offered for up to 6 months for EU citizens (non UK) unless permanent employment is found. However the EU is heavily opposing this, trying to over-rule them.

The UK is not the only country with such a problem although it has it by far the worst due to its socialist nature. Some other country recently has also introduced similar laws (which the EU is opposing) for the similar reason of people moving to the country just to get something more than they would in their own country for nothing.

Lol, Socialism for the win, it's the capitalists changing the system that's screwing it up i.e. the tories. Immigration in the UK is not a problem it's an illusion the press like to keep up, so please DSG stop saying these kinds of things about 1) Socialism and 2) Immigration. There is nothing wrong with the government offering people things for free but there is something wrong when the state after offering people these things does not provide the means to get these people to eventually stop needing or requiring these benefits and free stuff.

For example Margaret Thatcher helped create the benefit state by shutting down the mines without ensuring there was infrastructure for those workers to then move into hence large numbers of unemployment and then people requiring benefits.

@Soliliquy: troll harder please troll harder.

 

[Footman16]

Eh no, Krugman is not my deity.

Like I said, you obviously don't understand immigration in the UK, it is not a massive migration of every person in the foreign world coming over don't flatter yourself. It is not a problem. It is an illusion the media are presenting mainly because Racists just love being capitalists.

They're not stealing anything, we don't use dollars either. When Britons move to a country (France, Spain etc) they make pubs, B & Bs and utterly take a dump on the culture and people of the country they've moved into.

 

[Dr Super Good]

For example Margaret Thatcher helped create the benefit state by shutting down the mines without ensuring there was infrastructure for those workers to then move into hence large numbers of unemployment and then people requiring benefits.

Not true. She did give them opportunities but they choose the "we are coalminers so **** you" approach. The UK is full of jobs for people who actually want one and seek them, however most people do not. Instead the take the approach "oh no I was made redundant so I have no work!" approach. If there is no work you find work or make work. You do not sit around some council house waiting for work to come to you in an area that is only as populated as it is because the former source of employment allowed it to be so although that has now shut down for not being economically viable.

If you watched programs like benefits street or the one showing what benefits were like after WW2 you would understand.

They're not stealing anything, we don't use dollars either. When Britons move to a country (France, Spain etc) they make pubs, B & Bs and utterly take a dump on the culture and people of the country they've moved into.

No? Most people who moved to those countries were OAPs and have been totally messed up by scammers (selling property illegally) or economic decline. Yes some did, but then again that always happens all over the place. Like all the Asians setting up shops in Glasgow for all the University students.

 

[Footman16]

If you watched programs like benefits street or the one showing what benefits were like after WW2 you would understand.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! Are you joking? Are you seriously joking? What kind of tripe do you believe?

 

[Footman16]

I do live in Scotland, I've been to England a few times and even without that I can tell you right now, Immigration. Is. Not. A. Problem. I don't speak for Scotland I'm speaking for the UK.

 

[Footman16]

Personally for me immigration is the solution. In the United Kingdom, what do you see? Grey skies, brick houses and the current white youth does nothing but drink and act like the slags they are.

The soldiers of Islam; the new generation, they will fix that. They will build a mosque where the Cavern Club once stood; they will tear down every single pub where hedonism and indulgence swarm like the followers of Slaneesh.

When the followers of Mohammad (peace be upon him) replace Christian and atheist alike, there will be progress and a lack of apathy.

Maybe, but we'll never know.

 

[Footman16]

You will know. Whites are disappearing fast from the United Kingdom and the European Union in general. In less than fifty-years the United Kingdom will be a majority Muslim country. There will be daily beheadings for those who violate Shariah law -- Lee Rigby was a taste of things to come.

That's is disgusting and highly out of taste, don't ever make jokes like that -- it's inappropriate.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! Are you joking? Are you seriously joking? What kind of tripe do you believe?

I believe my own ears. And what people were saying at high school. And what the Scottish Independence party promised to give people.

You can guess I obviously voted no as that guy had absolutely no clue what he was saying. However that is besides the point. The fact is the EU is a load of rubbish run by fat heads who have no idea what people want as they are so disconnected from reality they might as well be writing legalisation giving trolls and elves the right to vote.

 

[Justicebringer]

EU is a load of rubbish run by fat heads

Exactly.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Exactly. I hope they won't last much longer. We're all better off on our own.

 

[VeljkoM]

Exactly. I hope they won't last much longer. We're all better off on our own.

In world it is impossible to be on your own, best example look at North Korea. Hey look at us too, we are sort of the most pathetic ex-yugo state, competing with Montenegro and Macedonia (heck even their denar is better then our dinar). We were better when we were Yugoslavia and had
Non-Aligned Movement and maintained relations with west and east. When you are small you must deal with bigger sides in this case West (NATO, EU) or side with Russia who honestly I don't think can realistically help us in long run. Or go with China I guess they are good as any other choice.

Yes EU isn't exactly competent or well maintained but there is some point in it. Again I wish someone with actually knowledge would speak about it, I didn't come to wc3 modding site to defend EU, I certainly don't like it.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

We would be better off without it if we weren't so incompetent. That part is our problem.

 

[Justicebringer]

In world it is impossible to be on your own, best example look at North Korea

Dispite what EU says, you dont have to be a member of a super state to be competitive,
with trading contracts and cooperation every country can
be viable. See Iran.

 

[Nuclear]

Iran is supposed to be an example of a thriving economy, high standards of living and well guarded human rights?

 

[Justicebringer]

Iran is supposed to be an example of a thriving economy, high standards of living and well guarded human rights?

Yes, kind of.
But I was only speaking about economical aspects.

Statisctics from wikipedia

 

[VeljkoM]

Well besides human rights (definitely not bad like neighbors to the west) it isn't that bad. But you know it is still country with population of 77 million and territory of 1,648,195 km2 and probably has thriving industry and does have fair share of agreements internationally. Maybe I am wrong but I don't think many other nations have same benefits as Iran and thus capability of independent power. How about a less powerful example? I doubt half of European states can brag these days.

 

[Boris_Spider]

Screw it, let's destroy all of these conglomerate entities then (EU, US, UN, & any other treaty-based alliance) and go back to the good-ol' days when each country was small & entirely on it's own. If your neighbor had something you wanted and wouldn't give it to you just because, then you'd try to kill them for it. If we all want to undo a few hundred years of attempting to cooperate with one-another as equals lets go for it!

But, when WW3 starts I don't want to hear any complaints... because the solution was to not work with others because any minimal amount of cooperation is socialism which is the bane of existence for US & its allies.

Leaving the EU because it doesn't do exactly what you want it do is stupid. But what do I know... I guess everyone has to learn the hard-way.

/rant

//\\==//\\

 

[Footman16]

But, when WW3 starts I don't want to hear any complaints... because the solution was to not work with others because any minimal amount of cooperation is socialism which is the bane of existence for US & its allies.

Whilst I agree with maintaining the EU please elaborate on your definition of socialism and how it's the "minimal amount of coooperation"?

 

[Boris_Spider]

I was referencing the definition of socialism utilized by many in the US (socialism = cooperating-with/providing-assistance-to people that won't do exactly what I want when I want; unless it benefits the corporations in which said behavior is acceptable). Now, good luck getting very many here to admit that explicitly, but their behaviors & attitudes betray their positions/views.

The cooperation comment was based on how divisive the US is getting in regards to dialog. I'm encountering more people that won't talk to others just because they differ in political ideology; you can see this reflected in the current state of our government (neither party will agree to anything other then the absolute surrender to their demands, which is why there's been a deadlock for years). My state has been gerrymandered to the point where all the districts are entirely controlled by one of the two parties, which ends in no challenges & no dialogs - basically the government has silenced many constituents who may disagree and take the easy reelections as justification for continuing their policies. This builds frustration, anger, and even worse apathy.

Now this relates back to the EU in how the comments I keep seeing on this thread. The US is further along the road of division than the EU is but has measures in place that prevent fracturing (see the US civil war results). I do know that the recent EU elections favored more conservative parties who are in favor of dissolving the EU before it finishes establishing itself - which is a reflection of the people who showed up to vote. As far as I know, voter turnouts in Europe surpass those in the US which would incline me to think that the opinions of the government are more reflective of each government's constituents (of course, if the apathy in the EU is like what is seen in the US, my position has no foundation).

I was hoping the EU would watch what the US is doing and avoid the mistakes we're making (they're setting us back a generation or two). Instead they're mimicking the US behavior.

//\\oo//\\

 

[VeljkoM]

I think you are little to much equalizing USA with EU. Don't mistake European nations as equal to USA states. EU is mostly economical union, there is no some bond that unites them all in European identity (not for the lack of trying). And anyway even European nations themselves show signs of fracturing (biggest example no doubt Spain). And it isn't like European states are equals in EU, obviously and as expected bigger nations have bigger importance in it (which is why there is grim joke that Germany with EU did what Hiter with ww2 could not). Also isn't there NATO in case of WW3 and not EU.

Oh also.

If your neighbor had something you wanted and wouldn't give it to you just because, then you'd try to kill them for it. If we all want to undo a few hundred years of attempting to cooperate with one-another as equals lets go for it!

Still happens today as has been happening since the dawn of history. We just justify it and name it differently depending from the point of view. Main reason why there were always super powers and nations that depended on them and are at their mercy. Just today we can't expect anymore random hordes to appear and destroy super powers and instead we watch them destroy themselves and then new one rises... Or aliens will come which ever you prefer.

 

[Boris_Spider]

I think you are little to much equalizing USA with EU. Don't mistake European nations as equal to USA states. EU is mostly economical union, there is no some bond that unites them all in European identity (not for the lack of trying). And anyway even European nations themselves show signs of fracturing (biggest example no doubt Spain). And it isn't like European states are equals in EU, obviously and as expected bigger nations have bigger importance in it (which is why there is grim joke that Germany with EU did what Hiter with ww2 could not). Also isn't there NATO in case of WW3 and not EU.

Still happens today as has been happening since the dawn of history. We just justify it and name it differently depending from the point of view. Main reason why there were always super powers and nations that depended on them and are at their mercy. Just today we can't expect anymore random hordes to appear and destroy super powers and instead we watch them destroy themselves and then new one rises... Or aliens will come which ever you prefer.

No NATO present if alliances are disbanded and we all fend for ourselves. While the EU is more of a confederacy instead of the US union, the EU was pushing to further integrate it's member states. Economics is the sole reason behind these mergers.

I agree that it still happens today, we are nowhere near removing that ailment from our culture. Once we figure out how to work together instead of for ourselves it will cease to be a problem.

//\\oo//\\

 

[Nuclear]

Yes, kind of.
But I was only speaking about economical aspects.

Statisctics from wikipedia

I don't think there are that many countries with no GDP increase, it's pretty normal. A comparison to a western country's GDP rise rate would be more helpful.

NATO is complete rubbish, if it was gone there would be less 'terrorism' and more peace. I mean honestly, the amount of fear-mongering and hyperbole during the Scottish independence campaign was beyond absurd. For example, NATO claiming that Scotland would be vulnerable to a Russian invasion. Really, now. And sadly, idiots bought such stupidity.

[Citation needed]

 

[Footman16]

For example, NATO claiming that Scotland would be vulnerable to a Russian invasion. Really, now. And sadly, idiots bought such stupidity.

That's not the reason we voted no actually. We voted no because it made the most economical and political sense.