Map Genre: Aeon of Strife (AOS)
Maximum number of players: 10 (5vs5)
Recommanded Players: 4vs4
Supported Modes: -all pick, -baning pick (-bap), -all random
Number of heroes: 40
Preamble
After almost 10 months of working on this map, I decided to remake a lot of elements. I found them to be actually an obstacle to strategic playing. This is why I removed the old stat system 'Critical Spell Chance' and the hero classes. Furthermore, I reduced the hero level to 25 and the spell levels to 5 for basic spells and to 3 for ultimates. I hope the changes will make the game more fun to play.
General Information
Dungeon Lords is a basic yet skill-requiring AoS map, which uses elements I have seen in other games and that I found interesting to be implemented in a Warcraft 3 AoS-map. As in so many other AoS-maps, two parties - the Alliance of Mages and the Darkness Invokers - battle each-other. Each hero masters five spells, three of them have 5 levels and one of them, the ultimate spell, has 3 levels. Additionally, each hero has a stat skill increases all three stats. The hero's maximum level is 25. The map supports "-all pick" and "-all random" (since version 1.11d).
Plot
Some inhabitants of Dalaran were able to survive the destruction of the city by Burning Legion's warlord Kil'Jaeden and hid in Dalaran's catacomb system, deep beneath the town. Feeling the presence of the survivors and willing to eliminate even the last survivors of Dalaran, Kil'Jaeden decided to send out the most powerful and dreadful creatures, called 'Darkness Invokers'. Fearing the intruding forces of the Burning Legion, the survivors of Dalaran gathered together in an 'Aliance of Mages' and prepared for the upcoming battle...
Features
Circles of Power - Circles of Power are placed at almost every strategic point in the map. Whenever your hero stays within a circle of power, he or she remains hidden as long as they are not attacking or casting a spell. They are basically the brushes like in LoL. Since version 1.09, when two opposed enemy heroes are in the same circle of power at the same time, the hiding effect is removed from both, unhiding both to each-other.
Hero Stats - I removed the old Strength-Agility-Intelligence stat system because it created in my opinion too many imbalance issues at late games (usually, but not all the time, agility heroes became an unstoppable force because of too much armor and dps). This is way I introduced a stat system using aether, tenacity and rage. Aether improves spell damage. Tenacity is basically spell resistance and increases hitpoings. Rage increases damage, attack speed and in some really rare cases improves spell damage (under some conditions each time). There is no main stat.
Faceless Overlord - The Faceless Overlord is the big boss creep that spawns 10 minutes after the game has started. Killing the Faceless Overlord gives a considerable gold boost and an aura that increases mana regeneration and damage for 80 seconds.
Master-Runes - After choosing your hero, you can select two different runes to "customize" your hero. Every rune improves a different aspect of your hero (Damage, Tenacity, Aether, Armor, Attack Speed, Revival time, etc.). Since version 1.05, there are also active master runes. You will start the game with a 'Rune Amulet' in which active runes are put into.
Heroes - All heroes have at least two spells, often three and sometimes four, that can be enhanced by aether. Considering the nature of their spells (disable, area damage, nuke, etc.) and the individual stat gain per level, some heroes are better be played as mages, others as auto-damage carries and some others as supports or tanks. Nonetheless, it is up to the player to decide on how to play their heroes. Some heroes that might be good auto-damage carries might also be good mages.
Denial - Heroes, towers and creeps can't be denied unless they have less than 25% hitpoints. Denaying an allied non-hero unit gives 10 gold.s
Gems - Ingame, you can purchase up to six gems, that will be stored in your rune amulet. Once bought, you cannot remove them. Each gem will improve a certain hero stat.
Noob-Friendliness - I really tried to keep the map as simple as possible. The only "difficult" aspect of the game is the new stat-system. For example, when you select a hero, some information about that hero will added in the quest log, proposing Master-Runes, a possible build for that hero and some "tactics" about how to paly this hero. Furthermore, the map is written in simple English (English is not my native language anyway). However, not all hero guides are ready to read.
Bugs and Balancing
I tried the map several times with some friends. It is actually quite balanced, though, battlemages are usually the dominating class in the early-game. At the late mid-game and early late-game, fighters become very strong and easily equlize with battlemages. Unfortunately, I didn't have the time in the last weeks to test the new version, so there might be some bugs. If you find any of them, just report them please and I will fix them in the next version.
Credits
If I used one of your credits without giving credits to you, just PM me and tell, please.
Version 2.06 - two new heroes (Furbolg Brawler and Thunder Scorpion), Aether does not increase with level-up any more, Starting aether for all heroes set to 0, Denying allied units gives 10 Gold, new item (Chaos Axe), balancing (Mastermind, Gryphonrider, Subjugator of Titans) and bug fixing.
Version 2.05 - One new hero (Naga Siren), Bug Fixing and balancing
Version 2.04 - Two New Heroes (Master-Builder, Runebird), balancing, new items (Ogre Warlord's Axe), new item category (divine items), Statistics at the end of the game, some few bug fixes
Version 2.03b - New Hero (Jerycho the Gryphon Rider), some balancing, tenacity-spell damage ratio does not increase anymore, gems are not avalaible in the first 10 minutes of the game,
Version 2.02 - Tiny Update... two new items (Invoker's Staff and Overlord's Wand), some balancing, I put the towers closer to the main building so that units won't stop next them doing nothing.s
Version 2.02 - New Hero (Mahambr - The Warlock, a support and mage semi-carry), Denial (allied units below 25% hitpoints can be denied), Neutral Hero Taverne removed (both sides now have two taverns)
Version 2.00 - Completely new game play. Introduction of new heroes (Hydra and Necromancer), New Hero Stat (Rage), New Items, Some Balancing, Rework of all heroes.
Version 1.12d - New Hero (Holmir the Dranai shaman - mighty ap carry and nuker), some balancing (front towers stronger, base towers weaker, considerably less gold bounty from neutral creep kills), Nerubian Buff grants the time twister effect (reduced cooldowns), new items (Dragonguard's Ring of Protection, Archmage's Boots, Kel's Ice Shard)
Version 1.11d - New Hero (Morphy the Hydromancer), Heroes nerfed (Mastermind), Heroes buffed (Worm King, Flamewalker, Pirate Captain), Item buffed (Ghost Helmet), Magic to Structure Armor ratio set to 30% (from initially 125%), Heroes remade (Fire Invoker who is now called 'Pyromanic'), New Items (Oblivion Staff, Tidal Sword), Revival System remade, New Game Mode (-all random ... still in beta), Overall Gold Income (Bounty, Creep Kills, Gold Rune, etc.) reduced
Version 1.10 - New Hero (Pirate Captain), Item buffed (Trinity Orb), New Creep Buff (Lava Golem Buff granting 65% life-steal), Life and Mana restore ability of store area nerfed (before 20% restored per second, now 3% per second), tenacity now starts at 3.00 and increases by 0.05 every 50 seconds (stack at 4.25), Hero nerfed (Mealstrom Invoker)
Version 1.09 - Lots of balancing... Tenacity now increases by 0.05 every 50 seconds and stacks at 3.75 after approximately 25 seconds; Critical spell damage stacks at +35% critical spell damage (mages became too strong in late games); Each tenacity point furthermore increases health by 5 points; The old revival system was replaced by a traditional hero revival system (it turned out to be too unbalanced at late game); Items buffed (Shield of Honor, Sceptre of Mastery, Royal Lion Shield); Heroes Buffed (Worm King); Magic-Hero Armor ratio set to 90% and Hero Damage - Hero Armor ratio set to 98% (AD heroes turned out to be too weak); When two enemy heroes are in the same circle of power at the same time, the hiding effect is removed from both; Towers now have the unhide ability (400 range)
Version 1.08 - New Hero (Tidal Giant Poseidon, an AP off tank mage), items buffed (revenants crown, justice bringer, guardian sword, archmage's staff)
Version 1.07 - New Item (Elune's Scythe - finally mages will have their own life steal), Critical Strike Chance now stacks (only the chance, not the critical strike damage multiplicator), New Hero (Flamewalker, a mage that should be played as AD carry... this hero was inspired by the Storm Spirit from DotA), Item Balancing (Master Gloves restore hitpoints, Armor of Pertenacity now grants a huge mana and hp reg), Game Balancing (Foe bounty decreased by 25%)
Version 1.06 - New Hero (Kashmir, the Revenant of the Dead), All hero tool-tips reworked (now figuring class, function, attack range and difficulty), Fighters now use aether as well (except for the Shadow Queen), some balancing, magic-armor damage ratio set to 95% (from originally 108%)
version 1.05e - New Hero (Lucian the Subjugator of Titans, Invoker), Heroes Nerfed (Storm Hunter), New Items (Revenant's Crown, Justice Bringer, Guardian Sword), Magic-Armor-Ratio to 108%, Game Time now visible on the multiboard, Storm Hunter's passive spells (D et E) extremely nerfed and debuged, Armor-Damage Ratios now visible on armor description, Hero souls will now have a degressive movement speed (the higher the hero level, the slower the movement speed), New Master Rune ('Revivev')
Version 1.05 - New Hero (Maelstrom Invoker), New Items (Shield of Resistance, Master Gloves), Introduction of active master runes (granting your hero additional spells), Loading Screen removed to reduce map size, Weraz Rune Buffed, Introduction of gems (you can purchase up to 6 gems that will increase different hero stats), Worm King remade (His passive 'D' was replaced by a similar spell, but draining mana when used), Geomancer nerfed (his Earthquake now deals -50% damage to buildings instead of +50%), Added a surrender vote system
Version 1.04d - New hero (Healer hero 'Ancient Roamer'), fixed some leak causing triggers, balanced some heroes (Fire Invoker, Doom Keeper), changed the map preview image (big thx to Zyne), modified some hero spell icons, changed the model of 'Fire Invoker' to reduce map size (Fire Invoker's model used to be a custom model)
Version 1.04 - New items (Druid's Boots, Time Twister), new hero (Mountain King), Terrain reworked (now with real jungle), Neutral Mini Boss-Creeps added (called 'Nerubian', granting a minor gold boost and an impressive mana reg buff), Foe-Upgrades (every 75 seconds, foes gain +5hp and +1dmg), Towers buffed a little bit
Version 1.03 - One new item (Phantom Dancer), One new hero (Shadow Queen), Beast Lord reworked (His ultimate was replaced), Towers remade (different tower levels, range reduced, attack speed reduced, damage reduced), Number of spawned foes reduced, creep bounty increased, Hero balanced (Storm Hunter's ultimate nerfed, Worm King's 'W' nerfed, Mastermind's 'E' buffed), Tenacity up to 2.25, damage-armor ratios remade, hero hitpoint increases on level-up balanced. Critical spell damage starts at 10% and increases by +1% every 50 seconds and stacks at +60%
Version 1.02 - Two new Items (Bloot Talisman, Frozen Shield), Worm King nerfed (his worms' damage type was changed to "normal"; the worms' life reg was set back to 5hp/sec), Aether Hunter buffed (His ultimate spell now deals way more damage), bugs fixed (some spells didn't do magic damage, but normal damage), Tenacity set to 1.95
Version 1.01 - Just a minor update to fix two bugs I found after releasing version 1.00 and that could make the game unplayable for some heroes.
But this Map is very unbalanced, melee heroes can't kill the ranged because they are out of mana (my nana 100 all my spells cost 75) or they be killed by an 1 hit after the others used ulti.
The towers are too near to the enemies tower, you can't farm with an melee hero because the other tower kill you instantly.
But this Map is very unbalanced, melee heroes can't kill the ranged because they are out of mana (my nana 100 all my spells cost 75) or they be killed by an 1 hit after the others used ulti.
The towers are too near to the enemies tower, you can't farm with an melee hero because the other tower kill you instantly.
Hey,
first of all , thank you for playing and commenting. I am still balancing the game and its gonna be better. However, the problem you quoted is not a balance problem, but rather your hero build that's wrong: take the master rune mannaz that grants additionnal mana with every level up and build items that grant mana. If you take the item "Periapt of Mana" (+100 mana and 300 gold costs) and the manna master rune (+100 starting mana and +75mana with every level up), you already start the game with 300 mana, which is quite a lot considering the low mana costs of your hero's spells.
Concerning the towers, i totally agree with you. The front towers are too strong and are going to be nerfed.
Hello GLB. Before you read this, know that I only played the map single player, and thus cannot comment on PvP balance at all. I will be hosting it for some friends on bnet later, and plan to play an inhouse to test it out more (if you'll be on tonight at 8:00ish Central time, you can join! xD). Anyway, these are my initial thoughts, starting with the positives.
Things I liked:
- Revamped stat system is great! It interested me a lot, and even though it was different, it felt intuitive. (Do you even need a primary attribute anymore, really? You could just do damage separately.)
- Nice item selection! From what I can see, you understand what most heroes need, and that's good.
- Every hero I have tried out so far (only 3) seem interesting and fun to play, which is always a plus!
- Recommended Items/Play Guide in F9 is a great idea. Make it more clear that players have access to that information if they need it, imo.
Eyesores (annoying details):
- The upgrade for my hero's damage is called Mithril Forged Swords. If you just change its name to "Hero Attack" or something, it would be fine, imo.
- The Coral Ring's disabled icon looks too bright. I thought it was always purchasable at first.
- I can still click to pick a hero after I have my hero, but apparently I need to "Summon more Ziggurats" (I have 2/1 food used).
Minor Issues:
- Is attacking and killing Runes intentional? If not, you should probably make them invulnerable, or give them a lot more HP.
- The creep boss icon didn't show up on the minimap, and I had to hunt around for him. :(
- The towers are placed too close together at the creep meeting point, resulting in it being very hard for melee heroes to do anything.
- The symmetry of the map kind of threw me off. I'm used to maps with three lanes being semi-symmetric... but the exact symmetric nature of the terrain didn't sit right with me.
Major Issues:
- First things first. Creep spawns. Creeps spawn too quickly by about 5-10 seconds (the timer is 5-10 seconds too fast). And way too many ranged creeps spawn. When no heroes are on a lane, the creeps sometimes 'back up' and there will be 10-15 creeps at a time.
- Second thing about creeps... the damage - EHP ratio is off as well. Creeps do too little damage to each other, which helps them clog/back up as well. However, the ranged creeps do way too MUCH damage to my hero early on. When I arrived at the lane at level 1, there was a backup of 12 ranged creeps, who then proceeded to kill me in two volleys the minute I stepped past my tower. I would change the Magic damage versus Hero armor ratio, and then increase the creeps' damage.
- The towers are also not well balanced. I think this is primarily due to the fact that you only have one tower on the map, instead of a progression of towers that get stronger as you approach the base. Additionally, their attack animations are too fast, resulting in it being hard to farm near your tower, and they have a bit too short of an attack range.
- Last thing is probably the most important to fix, though. This is the terrain. In my opinion, the terrain, aside from being monotone and boring, is not strategic. The gank spots feel contrived. There aren't enough of them. There is no real 'jungle' area. There are no cliffs. The only doodad that you really used is the "wall," which feels out of place and doesn't blend well visually. I would suggest a complete terrain overhaul in upcoming versions. (To be fair, the shops area was well-made.)
Overall, a very solid start! I hope you keep developing this, I could very well see hosting the map on Battle.net eventually for some of my friends, or even publicly. Keep working at it. I will playtest it with friends sometime tonight. You can find me at USEast (Mech_Warrior) if you want to play with us. Cheers :D
- Mech
__________________
I'm in your kitchen, stealin' your c00kies.
Hello GLB. Before you read this, know that I only played the map single player, and thus cannot comment on PvP balance at all. I will be hosting it for some friends on bnet later, and plan to play an inhouse to test it out more (if you'll be on tonight at 8:00ish Central time, you can join! xD). Anyway, these are my initial thoughts, starting with the positives.
Hey Mech,
first of all again, thank you for playing and commenting! I really appreciate intelligent and constructive feedback. I really would have liked to play with you and your friends, but real life keeps me busy at the moment ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech_Warrior
Things I liked:
- Revamped stat system is great! It interested me a lot, and even though it was different, it felt intuitive. (Do you even need a primary attribute anymore, really? You could just do damage separately.)
- Nice item selection! From what I can see, you understand what most heroes need, and that's good.
- Every hero I have tried out so far (only 3) seem interesting and fun to play, which is always a plus!
- Recommended Items/Play Guide in F9 is a great idea. Make it more clear that players have access to that information if they need it, imo.
Thank you. And for your (rhetorical?) question: I think the standard intelligence strength agility without primary attributes is a great idea, on condition that agility does not increase armor. Cause Damage+DPS+Armor increase for agi heroes is imbalanced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech_Warrior
Eyesores (annoying details):
- The upgrade for my hero's damage is called Mithril Forged Swords. If you just change its name to "Hero Attack" or something, it would be fine, imo.
- The Coral Ring's disabled icon looks too bright. I thought it was always purchasable at first.
- I can still click to pick a hero after I have my hero, but apparently I need to "Summon more Ziggurats" (I have 2/1 food used).
I never noticed this title problem for the damage upgrade. i will fix it soon. For the Coral ring's disabled icon, I am a bit confused cause its the original icon that seems buggy. I noticed this, too, and i will try to fix it. And the clickable heroes after hero selection is not a bug. If you have 2/1 food, you can't buyt any new hero. If this is an annoying detail for you and other players, i will try to fix it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech_Warrior
Minor Issues:
- Is attacking and killing Runes intentional? If not, you should probably make them invulnerable, or give them a lot more HP.
- The creep boss icon didn't show up on the minimap, and I had to hunt around for him. :(
- The towers are placed too close together at the creep meeting point, resulting in it being very hard for melee heroes to do anything.
- The symmetry of the map kind of threw me off. I'm used to maps with three lanes being semi-symmetric... but the exact symmetric nature of the terrain didn't sit right with me.
Never noticed that runes are attackable. I will make them unvulnerable. And i totally agree with you for the creep meeting point between the towers and the boss minimap icon. I will nerf the towers (reduce attack range and damage). But a little hint btw, go in the "jungle" area and attack the barrels. They spawn creeps that give more gold and more exp than foes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech_Warrior
Major Issues:
- First things first. Creep spawns. Creeps spawn too quickly by about 5-10 seconds (the timer is 5-10 seconds too fast). And way too many ranged creeps spawn. When no heroes are on a lane, the creeps sometimes 'back up' and there will be 10-15 creeps at a time.
I already fixed this in version 1.03 (that is not on hive, yet). I reduced the number of creeps spawneed (now, only 3 melee and 1 range instead of 5 melee and 3 range as it is in v1.02). But i will still keep the timer as it is now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech_Warrior
- Second thing about creeps... the damage - EHP ratio is off as well. Creeps do too little damage to each other, which helps them clog/back up as well. However, the ranged creeps do way too MUCH damage to my hero early on. When I arrived at the lane at level 1, there was a backup of 12 ranged creeps, who then proceeded to kill me in two volleys the minute I stepped past my tower. I would change the Magic damage versus Hero armor ratio, and then increase the creeps' damage.
Ok. Instead of changing the magic-dmg ratio to hero armor, i will simply change the range units' damage type to normal. The magic-dmg ratio has some balancing issues for hero spells.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech_Warrior
- The towers are also not well balanced. I think this is primarily due to the fact that you only have one tower on the map, instead of a progression of towers that get stronger as you approach the base. Additionally, their attack animations are too fast, resulting in it being hard to farm near your tower, and they have a bit too short of an attack range.
Mh ok. I will do this. Introduce different tower levels and nerfing their attack cooldown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech_Warrior
- Last thing is probably the most important to fix, though. This is the terrain. In my opinion, the terrain, aside from being monotone and boring, is not strategic. The gank spots feel contrived. There aren't enough of them. There is no real 'jungle' area. There are no cliffs. The only doodad that you really used is the "wall," which feels out of place and doesn't blend well visually. I would suggest a complete terrain overhaul in upcoming versions. (To be fair, the shops area was well-made.)
Ah! I knew one day some one would say that my terrain sucks. haha. Though I think you are right for the esthetic aspects, I don't agree with you on the cliffs and gank spots. I was thinking about introducing cliffs, but eventually I didn't. why? too close to Dota. I did want to create an AoS map, but not a real clone of Dota. I agree with you that this unables many strategies (jumping over cliffs to escape, etc.) , but you just have to go along with it. Sorry. I won't change this. and for the gank spots, there are so many of them. All the circles of power, that turn your hero invisible. I can't tell you how many times i went in the jungle to farm and I was ganked by two friends ambushing in the circles. But i will see if and how i can fix this issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mech_Warrior
Overall, a very solid start! I hope you keep developing this, I could very well see hosting the map on Battle.net eventually for some of my friends, or even publicly. Keep working at it. I will playtest it with friends sometime tonight. You can find me at USEast (Mech_Warrior) if you want to play with us. Cheers :D
- Mech
Wow thank you! And thanks lot for your review. As I said, I will fix most of the points you mentionned (except for the cliffs ^^).
Hey GLB. I tested the map with some friends, and I have more feedback to offer. I will break it down by early, mid, and late game.
First a quick note: A way to make an AoS terrain unique, while keeping cliffs, rivers, etc., can be found in some of the guides on the Hive (for instance The Ultimate Beginners Terrain Tutorial) I would recommend looking into it; your cliffs/rivers would look different (read: better), and it wouldn't turn out looking like a DotA clone.
Anyway onto the game.
Early game -
Laning felt really weird. Partially this was due to too many creeps, and the magic damage on ranged creeps, and also due to tower positioning (both of which you said you would address). The other part was spells. Holy shit! Spells deal TONS of damage! I wasn't really sure why, either.
I was the Dragon Battlemage hero, and I could literally kill my enemy on the lane by using both my spells (I was level 5, he was level 5). I believe he was a Warrior who chose to upgrade his HP and Mana with the two upgrades. I was looking at the code by extracting it from your map, and from what I could gather, you apply certain limit values, and then reduce the damage based on the Strength stat (forget what it's called in your map, sorry >.<). Are you sure that the damage is actually being reduced properly though? It seemed to me like either there was a glitch or the formula was DRASTICALLY off.
When we hit Level 6, my enemy could OHKO me with his ultimate, which was annoying. (I had bought an item to increase Str and an item to increase Max HP, but I wasn't upgrading HP with levels.) Overall, the early game Damage seemed a bit off too. I could barely scratch creeps at levels 1-9, and this made it very hard to farm. My enemy had dramatically more Damage than me, although he was a melee, so that makes sense somewhat. I just think the values were a bit too extreme, perhaps.
Mid game -
Ganking was way too easy. I said before that there weren't enough gank spots in the terrain. I was wrong. It's actually way too easy to sneak up on people via the Circles of Power, even though there are limited places to hide elsewhere. All I had to do was hide in a Circle, cast my Ultimate, blink in, and cast both my spells, and whoever I targeted would die immediately. I didn't need other people to be there when I ganked. The same goes for the other team. Mid game was basically "Whoever gets their Ultimate + Active + Active + Active combo off first wins the fight."
Again, goes back to spells doing way too much damage. Again, I'm not sure why this was. I really think you should look at the damage reduction triggers and make sure they're operating as intended. It seemed to me like getting more Str didn't really do much. At least getting HP seemed to help a little. The blademaster ult still OHKO'd me at this point (I had around 1100 HP mid game). Heals seem to suck in general. The only thing worth getting, I realized, was more HP to survive nukes, or more nuke damage to kill them with.
Late game -
Both teams were trying to push, and what usually happened was the following: Players A and B (Team 1) are trying to push a lane. Players C and D (Team 2) both come rushing out of the jungle where they were hidden, invis, and their combined combos kill Player A/B in 2-3 seconds. Player A/B (the one alive) retreats to tower. Players C and D try to push a lane. Player B revives; Players A and B come rushing out of the jungle, combo kill Player C/D, the other retreats, etcetc ad nausiam.
In the entire game, we managed to push 1 tower. They managed to push 0. Game finally ended when player C from Team 2 had to leave at roughly 35-40 mins. At this point we decided to call it a draw and left. At this point, we could finally begin to survive spells somewhat.
I don't mean to sound overly critical, though. Overall, I think this game has a lot of potential to be great. Even with the spells the way they were, it was fun, which is saying something. We were having a good time, even though everyone in the game was of the opinion that the spells were ridiculously overpowered by about 5-10 mins into the game. :P
I will continue to play any updated versions of the map, and help you out as it develops. I hope you keep working on it!
- Mech
__________________
I'm in your kitchen, stealin' your c00kies.
Hey GLB. I tested the map with some friends, and I have more feedback to offer. I will break it down by early, mid, and late game.
First a quick note: A way to make an AoS terrain unique, while keeping cliffs, rivers, etc., can be found in some of the guides on the Hive (for instance The Ultimate Beginners Terrain Tutorial) I would recommend looking into it; your cliffs/rivers would look different (read: better), and it wouldn't turn out looking like a DotA clone.
Anyway onto the game.
Early game -
Laning felt really weird. Partially this was due to too many creeps, and the magic damage on ranged creeps, and also due to tower positioning (both of which you said you would address). The other part was spells. Holy shit! Spells deal TONS of damage! I wasn't really sure why, either.
I was the Dragon Battlemage hero, and I could literally kill my enemy on the lane by using both my spells (I was level 5, he was level 5). I believe he was a Warrior who chose to upgrade his HP and Mana with the two upgrades. I was looking at the code by extracting it from your map, and from what I could gather, you apply certain limit values, and then reduce the damage based on the Strength stat (forget what it's called in your map, sorry >.<). Are you sure that the damage is actually being reduced properly though? It seemed to me like either there was a glitch or the formula was DRASTICALLY off.
When we hit Level 6, my enemy could OHKO me with his ultimate, which was annoying. (I had bought an item to increase Str and an item to increase Max HP, but I wasn't upgrading HP with levels.) Overall, the early game Damage seemed a bit off too. I could barely scratch creeps at levels 1-9, and this made it very hard to farm. My enemy had dramatically more Damage than me, although he was a melee, so that makes sense somewhat. I just think the values were a bit too extreme, perhaps.
Mid game -
Ganking was way too easy. I said before that there weren't enough gank spots in the terrain. I was wrong. It's actually way too easy to sneak up on people via the Circles of Power, even though there are limited places to hide elsewhere. All I had to do was hide in a Circle, cast my Ultimate, blink in, and cast both my spells, and whoever I targeted would die immediately. I didn't need other people to be there when I ganked. The same goes for the other team. Mid game was basically "Whoever gets their Ultimate + Active + Active + Active combo off first wins the fight."
Again, goes back to spells doing way too much damage. Again, I'm not sure why this was. I really think you should look at the damage reduction triggers and make sure they're operating as intended. It seemed to me like getting more Str didn't really do much. At least getting HP seemed to help a little. The blademaster ult still OHKO'd me at this point (I had around 1100 HP mid game). Heals seem to suck in general. The only thing worth getting, I realized, was more HP to survive nukes, or more nuke damage to kill them with.
Late game -
Both teams were trying to push, and what usually happened was the following: Players A and B (Team 1) are trying to push a lane. Players C and D (Team 2) both come rushing out of the jungle where they were hidden, invis, and their combined combos kill Player A/B in 2-3 seconds. Player A/B (the one alive) retreats to tower. Players C and D try to push a lane. Player B revives; Players A and B come rushing out of the jungle, combo kill Player C/D, the other retreats, etcetc ad nausiam.
In the entire game, we managed to push 1 tower. They managed to push 0. Game finally ended when player C from Team 2 had to leave at roughly 35-40 mins. At this point we decided to call it a draw and left. At this point, we could finally begin to survive spells somewhat.
I don't mean to sound overly critical, though. Overall, I think this game has a lot of potential to be great. Even with the spells the way they were, it was fun, which is saying something. We were having a good time, even though everyone in the game was of the opinion that the spells were ridiculously overpowered by about 5-10 mins into the game. :P
I will continue to play any updated versions of the map, and help you out as it develops. I hope you keep working on it!
- Mech
Wow, this was a great feedback! Better than what I was hoping to get. Thanks a lot. And I don't find it over critical at all. You're just saying what's wrong.
The main problem you are pointing out is spell damage. I know exactly why. After reading your comment, I looked at the damage ratio settings and I saw that magic and spell damage deal both 200% damage to hero armor! I have no clue why I set it to 200%. It used to be at 110%. I might have set it to 200% to test something and forgot to set it back. Sorry!
Anyhow, besides this little error, there are many reasons why you were able to kill easily your opponent at the beginning with only two skills: the Dragon Battlemage is a Battlemage and is atm with the Lich THE battlemage with the highest critical spell chance and a huge aether-damage ratio. This results in the following calcultion: 'Dragon Breath' deals something like 130 magic damage at level 3. Add +0.8 damage for each aether (let's say you'd have something like 40 aether) equals 162 damage. Plus 42% Critical spell Chance damage equals 230 damage. Let's say your opponnent (I assume it was the Voodoo Blademaster, who has lots of tenacity, but didn't increase tenacity first -what he should have done when facing a battlemage) has something like 40 tenacity, reducing incoming magic damage by 40*1.95 = 78 This means, that under normal circumstances, you should have dealt only 230-78= 152 magic damage. BUT, because of the spell damage - hero armor ratio, you dealt twice as much damage: 304 damage! I am sorry for this. I already fixed it yesterday.
Yesterday, I made the following changes: tenacity set to 2.25 (meaning that each tenacity point reduces incoming magic damage by 2.25); spell damage/magic damage now only deal 100% to hero armor, chaos (pure) damage deals 150% to hero armor (instead of 300%... btw one of your spells deals chaos damage...); range foes no more have magic damage; I changed the hitpoints upgrade for all heroes (battlemages now get 30 hp (instead of 5hp), invokers 35 (instead of 30), healers 40 (unchanged), fighters 35 (unchanged) and warriors 45 (instead of 70)); Towers now have 2 seconds attack cooldown and the attack range of all units got nerfed (-100 range for all towers and heroes, -50 for range foes).
Those changes should help a lot to rebalance the game.
But the way, did you have any lags or did you encounter any bugs?
Anyway, thanks a lot for your comment. I hellped a lot improving the map and i will keep you informed if you want.
We did not encounter anything game-breaking in our first playthrough, and there was very little lag. Could I have the updated version? I'd love to play it.
__________________
I'm in your kitchen, stealin' your c00kies.
We did not encounter anything game-breaking in our first playthrough, and there was very little lag. Could I have the updated version? I'd love to play it.
Ok thanks a lot. I will upload a little update either tomorrow or at end of this week. The update will only have little changes:
- HP increase for all heroes changed (battlemages and fighters buffed, invokers and healers almost unchanged and warriros nerfed).
- Magic and spell damage to hero armor ratio set back to 100% (from 200%!) and chaos damage to hero armor set back to 150% (from 300%!)
- Tenacity up to 2.25
- All range units nerfed (towers and heroes nerfed by -100 range and range foes by -50 range)
- Number of foes spawned nerfed (3 melee and 1 range)
- Bounty for killing creeps was increased
- A new hero: Shadow Queen (Fighter), who was designed to be one of the strongest melee carries
- Towers' damage set to 100 and attack cooldown set to 2.0 seconds
- some hero spells were nerfed: storm hunter's ultimate, worm king's worm spell
- The boss buff was improved: instead of increasing damage by +25%, it increases damage by +75% (taking into account only the basic damage of heroes)
If i have the time, i will change the towers, espacially the front towers, that are way too strong. And I will do that critical spell damage increases over time, starting at +10% at early game, increasing to up to +25% at mid game and stacking at +50% at late game. This way, I want to prevent battlemages from dealing too much damage at early game and enable them to deal a bit more damage at late game (at the moment, critical spell damage is at +42% for the whole game). However, for the next two weeks, I won't have the time to continue the map.
Hey GLB. So I've played the updated version twice, and both times it turned out pretty well! We did not encounter anything game breaking, and the balance seemed much better. Overall it was very fun. I'll give a more in depth review as you update more. :)
-Mech
__________________
I'm in your kitchen, stealin' your c00kies.
I think that Warcraft 3 needs map makers like GLB. They at least try to be innovative with the AoS and DotA genre, and they actually fix the bugs in-game and reply to every problem that sprouts up.
Anyways, I think this map is pretty balanced overall, but I only played in SP, and have yet to host it on Battle.net.
4.5/5, nice job.
Hey GLB. So I've played the updated version twice, and both times it turned out pretty well! We did not encounter anything game breaking, and the balance seemed much better. Overall it was very fun. I'll give a more in depth review as you update more. :)
-Mech
Ok thanks a lot! I am always happy about constructive feedback. The next version will be uploaded in two or three weeks. I will try to break the symmetry of the map you were complaining about. And I tried to introduce cliffs, but i was so freaking ugly, that I let it be. Instead, I am thinking about putting obstacles in the map. Anyhow, changing the terrain will be a long and painful process... ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeaderSN1
I think that Warcraft 3 needs map makers like GLB. They at least try to be innovative with the AoS and DotA genre, and they actually fix the bugs in-game and reply to every problem that sprouts up.
Anyways, I think this map is pretty balanced overall, but I only played in SP, and have yet to host it on Battle.net.
4.5/5, nice job.
ah thanks! This is really nice of yours! If you have any ideas on how to improve the game play/ the map, just tell me.
Btw, I forgot to tell something I wanted to include in the map description: since my map recommands item-builds, master-runes and strategies on how to play a hero, everyone of you can propose their favorite hero-builds (master-runes, items and even strategies) either by writing here or by PM-ing me. I never have the time to play all heroes ingames and to see what items would suit best.
