We Hate Kalista

[Vinz]

Right?

 

[Xonok]

I agree. This kind of mobility is absolutely broken. Every other high-mobility champion has at least some kind of weakness, but this one can move at beyond current speed while attacking.
I first encountered her as Jax and this lane was simply unbearable. One Q jump and I still had to keep running and hope that she somehow didn't outrun me(despite lacking boots when I had them!). Even if I did manage to stick it only gave me 1 second of stun.

She doesn't have any downtime at all, which is unprecedented for a kiting champion that can deal so high damage.

 

[Vinz]

When I first read the skill I thought it would have a 5 second cooldown for being cool. But it didn't. Bam. Broken.

And I heard it doesn't scale with movement but gets upgraded with boots - which means if she's slowed she still leaps that far.

 

[Xonok]

So she has a spammable dash that is faster than usual movement and can not be slowed down...

 

[Vinz]

Vayne's out. She used to be the only one who can chase so well (2s CD Tumble, Passive), but now Kalista surpasses her.

Her W's passive component (granted it happens once in a while) beats Vayne's especially at early levels. Then she has free vision. And her E is a combination of Twitch W and E. Which resets.

GG

 

[Direfury]

Dude. Up until recently, there wasn't a champion in League that I couldn't outpace with Tryndamere.

Used properly, he basically has a free flash every two seconds. If you can outpace that with ease in a match where you aren't Kassadin and this isn't URF mode, there's something seriously wrong here.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

The new hero? Haven't seen her yet

 

[Wietlol]

Kalista isn't OP
it is just a new champion and you have to know how to deal with her.

 

[Xonok]

She's a vayne on steroids. How is that not OP?

 

[Wietlol]

It is because you cannot see how she isn't. I will explain:
Riot shows everything from the most positive perspective so that people will be confident about a champion that they have never played. If they would only tell negative things, people won't play her. Basic commercial rules.

Some friends of me and I always make a very competetive discussion with some high elo/skilled players and discuss about a champion, how to play them, how to play against them and determine their champion power.

We are not yet done with Kalista but we do have a lot of information, playing style and counters.

I think that you guys think that she is OP because she has the basic attack dash and her ulti which could both be a pain in the ass for some people.

Lets start with the passive:

Passive: Martial Poise

INNATE: Kalista cannot cancel her basic attacks and they will miss if she loses sight of her target before they hit.
If Kalista enters a movement command while winding her basic attack or Pierce.png Pierce, she will drive through that direction when she launches her attack, dashing a short distance. Martial Poise distance scales with Enhanced Movement, and is increased by 25% when dashing backwards.

The main idea of this passive is that you gain varying mobility.
You are able to dash every time you use a basic attack or Pierce(Q). This bonus is equal to a dash ability like Riven, Shen or Graves has. As this is an ability, Silencing, Rooting, Snaring and harder CC will disable the dash.
If Kalista isnot able to dash with her passive, her mobility is completely shutdown to 0 as she cannot cancel attacks.

This passive is one that pretty much champions like adc's can use very well but has a very high skill cap.

Q: Pierce

ACTIVE: Kalista hurls a fast and narrow spear, dealing physical damage to the first enemy struck.

I must say that this one has a massive range but it is equal as easy to dodge as Nidalee's spear.
You can sidestep almost every pierce.

W: Sentinel

SOUL-MARKED - PASSIVE: If Kalista and her The Black Spear item.png Oathsworn ally attack the same target within 1.5 seconds of each other, the target will take additional magic damage equal to a percentage of their maximum health. This effect cannot occur on the same target for 8 seconds. Damage is capped against minions and monsters.

ACTIVE: Kalista commands a soul sentinel to the target location within range, gaining sight in a ~450-length cone in front of it. The sentinel's sight is obstructed by terrain and brush. Upon reaching the target location, it will return to a point within ~1400 units of cast location. The sentinel will perform a total of 7 laps, including the first two lengths. The sentinel is vulnerable from behind and will die if attacked twice by an enemy champion or once by a tower. If the sentinel spots an enemy champion it will scream and stalk them for the next 4 seconds - revealing them for the duration.

The damage output of the passive is very high considered being a poke ability. This does add one negative aspect to Kalista: She needs a support who can attack the enemy while still playing the right role in lane. As Kalista is a kiting ADC, there are a lot of good supports that you can remove from your champion list.

The sentinels are not very good. You can compare it to Ashe's hawkshot. Then I prefer hawkshot because of the range and the better visibility.
Keep in mind that sentinels can be destroyed without even spotting an enemy.

E: Rend

PASSIVE: Kalista's basic attacks and Pierce.png Pierce leaves her target speared for 4 seconds. There is no cap on the number of spears Kalista can lodge in her target. This passive is unavailable while Rend is on cooldown.

ACTIVE: Kalista rips all spears from nearby enemies, dealing physical damage and slowing them for 2 seconds. Rend's damage is increased by a percentage for every spear beyond the first that Kalista ripped from them.

This ability is the most dangerous of all. You must adjust your play style to negate almost ALL damage from this ability. Twitch's Expunge is nothing compared to this.
To negate the damage, you must keep distance while the stacks run out. The duration is not very long so you won't have trouble missing your farm/exp.

R: Fate's Call

ACTIVE: Kalista draws her The Black Spear item.png Oathsworn ally next to her, making them untargetable and disabling their spells for 4 seconds. Kalista's Oathsworn ally must be within 1400-range to cast Fate's Call.

During Fate's Call, Kalista's Oathsworn can right-click a target location to dash there, stopping at the first enemy hit, knocking up all surrounding enemies for 1.5 and landing themselves at their maximum attack range from the target.

This ability took a lot of our time and effort to come to a good counterplay and conclusion.
First of all, Kalista's partner (support) is having a bonus ability, NOT Kalista herself. Killing the partner will remove Kalista's ULT potential and decrease her power massively.
That is why there are even more supports that cannot make a good working comp with Kalista and leaves only a few open.
The actual ablity has no real way to outplay this. You just must be carefull with what you are going to engage.
Focussing the support in lane also lowers the chance of this ability being used to engage on you. You can easily damage the enemy and feel safe after a few hits.

Negative Aspects

1. Kalista has not very much 'good working' supports to help her. Smart banns can make a very easy bot lane but you will probably not face a Kalista if the remaining supports are all banned.

2. Kalista has low basic stats/damage output (with exeption of the damage from Sentinel)
A lot of more sustaining damage adcs can outdamage her without a problem.

3. Kalista has no ult. Her partner has 2 as long as Kalista is close. Killing the partner removes 2 ultis from the fight. (Remember to not focus on tanks though.)

Counters

Kalista is not a champion that can bend her playing style. Therefor she can be countered hard and give a free bot lane for the enemy.

ADC Counters: Ashe, Caitlyn, Draven, Jinx and Lucian.
Supp Counters: Alistar, Blitzcrank, Leona, Soraka and Taric.
(Keep in mind that Soraka or Taric are good with a Poke Lane ADC while the other are good with a Burst Lane ADC.)

Explaination ADC

Ashe: Ashe is a good counter because she can poke Kalista with Volley with a good hit chance and has Focus to outburst her engage poke. Her Crystal Arrow is too fast for anyone to react on short distance and allows Ashe to totally destroy Kalista within a few seconds.

Caitlyn: Caitlyn is a good counter because she outranges Kalista massively and can stay behind minions while still being able to poke Kalista. She can outburst Kalista on her engage with her Peacemakerand Caliber Net.

Draven: Draven is not very hard to be a counter for an engage adc. His damage is just way higher than Kalista's.

Jinx: Even though a lot of people disagree, Jinx is a good pick against Kalista if you know how to play Jinx. She can poke Kalista once she has used her dash. She can also use her Chompers to make a wall where Kalista cannot go through even with her dash. I do recommend a good burst support for this comp.

Lucian: Lucian also has a very high damage output and can outdamage Kalista and then dash away from her.

Explaination Supp

Alistar: Just easy to heal back and knockup + knockback as if Kalista wouldn't even exist.

Blitzcrank: Blitzcrank will have a hard time to land his pull, but playing against Kalista, you shouldn't rely on it. You should rather try to get close and use your ult before you pull.
(A lot of Kalistas have problems fighting against Blitzcrank.)

Leona: Every massive burst comp can outdamage Kalista, no matter the enemy support.

Soraka: As stated before, Silence will disable Kalista's passive and because she cannot cancel her AA, she will probably be snared every time you cast your silence+snare.
Next to that, you can heal eveything back after engaging.

Taric: Taric is always fun against kiting adcs. Once you land your stun, you can poke the enemy down and then regain health. Simply do that a lot of times until you zone your enemy denying farm, exp and thus winning lane.

As you can see, Some things are easy to play against if you know what to do.
It all matters about the point of view.

 

[Xonok]

This is assuming that she's an adc, which she isn't all so dangerous as. She's much stronger as a toplaner, especially against melees, because her stick potential is incredible and she outruns people with her passive alone.
This also makes it harder to prevent her from proccing rend, because you need a flash or something equivalent to have any chance of getting out of her range.
In the case of jax, she is unkillable as long as she is moving. With Q I can get in 1-2 basic attacks(second is the instant hit with W) and a few more with E. If she realizes that, she can harass me much more than I can harass her.
(If she's any good at poking, then she'll even outrange my Q easily)

 

[Vinz]

She can poke Kalista once she has used her dash.

It's not only one, it's infinite. Like how a Vayne Q can dodge most ADC skillshots, except it has <attack speed> cooldown.

 

[Wietlol]

This is assuming that she's an adc, which she isn't all so dangerous as.

Uhm... This is assuming that she's an adc, which she is all the time and her only potential.

There are still massive discussions about Kalista on top or mid lane.
The problem of her having mid is that she will get powned by every real poker caster.
The problem of her having on top lane is a bit more difficult. As you said "her stick potential is incredible and she outruns people with her passive alone." Kalista has high mobility but she has no big killing potential.
Lets take the Pantheon - Riven comp for example. Riven has high mobility and outdamages Pantheon up to 2 to 1. Yet Pantheon is the one who has the winning hand as he can poke Riven down before he engages.
Kalista has no killing potential and has to poke her opponent down before engaging. You as her opponent must use Kalista's kiting to your advantage when you want to engage on her.
Every proper Riven, Darius, Gnar, Yorick, etc can win top lane against Kalista.

Another problem is that she cannot use her ult if her partner is not near.
Assuming that the jungler is her partner and is not always ganking top, she has her ult up only 1/5 of the time that her ult is not on cooldown.

If you see the enemy jungler ganking bot or whatever, you can tell that Kalista is weak.

It's not only one, it's infinite. Like how a Vayne Q can dodge most ADC skillshots, except it has <attack speed> cooldown.

You do realize that we are talking about a fast paced skill based game?
You have to react on your opponents actions and that has no difference with Kalista. Once she uses her dash, she will either attack again and stand still for a short time or she will walk around like every other champion can do.

That time is not enough for Nami to bubble Kalista for example but Jinx's zap can hit her within the time given.

You don't even need to react on an unexpected move, you see her using a basic attack and start aiming. That is as simple as it is.
Or you can place your chompers behind her and engaging.

 

[Xonok]

Most melee toplaners still don't get to abuse her lack of kill potential, because her disengage is simply so strong.
I can beat vayne, even though it's sometimes a hard match-up. Yet, kalista isn't even possible to catch for long enough periods to deal significant damage. This is why her poke eventually wins out. Unlike most poke champions she is only countered by ranged kill-lanes, because she's way too good at kiting melees.

Riven does have high mobility indeed, but she is still countered by kiting, which Kalista has very good tools for.
Pantheon does have a chance due to being able to poke in slightly better conditions(spearshot not being blocked by minions) and due to his engage dealing very high guaranteed damage.
Darius doesn't have a chance, because a good Kalista will never let him close enough to be pulled in.
Gnar isn't melee. Yorick practically has ranged poke.

 

[Vinz]

Jinx's Zap has an indicator and delay, so if you have good ping it will be extremely hard to catch it.

And her Q is not about just hitting the enemy, it's also another dash.

 

[Wietlol]

Most melee toplaners still don't get to abuse her lack of kill potential, because her disengage is simply so strong.

So you want me to believe that kalista will dash back every time you come even near her? Sounds like a winning lane because Kalista has 0 farm and exp.

I can beat vayne, even though it's sometimes a hard match-up. Yet, kalista isn't even possible to catch for long enough periods to deal significant damage. This is why her poke eventually wins out. Unlike most poke champions she is only countered by ranged kill-lanes, because she's way too good at kiting melees.

Kalista will engage on you eventually. At that moment, you have time to engage by yourself. If you do that right, Kalista will be standing next to you. From that moment she has 0 escape because she cannot outdash movement. (Try it before saying that this isnt true.)

Riven does have high mobility indeed, but she is still countered by kiting, which Kalista has very good tools for.

Riven can engage on you with her dash + 3rd Q if you engage at the same moment as kalista does, then a stun will get her pinned down and you start attacking with basic attacks. After that, you just stick on her because she is too close again.

Pantheon does have a chance due to being able to poke in slightly better conditions(spearshot not being blocked by minions) and due to his engage dealing very high guaranteed damage.

Uhm... yea but I didn't say he was a counter did i?

Darius doesn't have a chance, because a good Kalista will never let him close enough to be pulled in.

Indeed, so Darius wins his lane.
Kalista is afraid of Darius. Should be afraid at least.
If Kalista comes too close, she will be killed. So she has to keep her distance.
Darius can either zone her or she will have to kite him and at that moment, Darius can engage and burst her.

Gnar isn't melee. Yorick practically has ranged poke.

Does that takes away that they are top lane champions?
We are talking about a potential new top laner, as you want her to be. IF she would be a counter to melee champions. THEN DON'T TAKE A MELEE CHAMPION!!!
I just say that there are still a good number of top laners that can win their lane against Kalista no matter their range, playing style, or whatever.

 

[Wietlol]

It's rarely the question of "Is it possible to win lane against Kalista". Rather it's always about "How do I win lane against Kalista?"
What I do I don't do to please you. I just tell the truth and it's all I follow.
The only champions that seem pointless or OP are the ones you don't understand.
That feeling when your perfect rage just refuses to work...

 

[Xonok]

So you want me to believe that kalista will dash back every time you come even near her? Sounds like a winning lane because Kalista has 0 farm and exp.

Kalista will engage on you eventually. At that moment, you have time to engage by yourself. If you do that right, Kalista will be standing next to you. From that moment she has 0 escape because she cannot outdash movement. (Try it before saying that this isnt true.)

Riven can engage on you with her dash + 3rd Q if you engage at the same moment as kalista does, then a stun will get her pinned down and you start attacking with basic attacks. After that, you just stick on her because she is too close again.

Indeed, so Darius wins his lane.
Kalista is afraid of Darius. Should be afraid at least.
If Kalista comes too close, she will be killed. So she has to keep her distance.
Darius can either zone her or she will have to kite him and at that moment, Darius can engage and burst her.

Does that takes away that they are top lane champions?
We are talking about a potential new top laner, as you want her to be. IF she would be a counter to melee champions. THEN DON'T TAKE A MELEE CHAMPION!!!
I just say that there are still a good number of top laners that can win their lane against Kalista no matter their range, playing style, or whatever.

You don't appear to understand the concept of poking in lane. Her dashes aren't only about running away. They are about kiting while moving at full speed or even slightly higher.

She doesn't have to engage, because the poke is quite devastating alone. Apparently you haven't read what I wrote previously, because I'm speaking of personal experience, not theory.

A riven needs to start close to engage on her, which is why a good Kalista will not let it happen. It's the same as any ranged champion, except that it's easier. If riven uses her abilities to get close, her damage will be low.

Darius loses the lane precisely because he can't engage, which lets Kalista poke her indefinitely. Due to Rend her poke is strong enough to not be outlasted.

Ranked isn't everything.

Kalista does have counters, yes, but they're not so much about playstyle than champion choice. This is why she is currently OP in the context of the ideals that LoL is supposedly based on.

tl;dr - Kalista is exactly about being hard to engage on, which, in combination with her high damage currently makes her very strong as a toplaner.

 

[Wietlol]

You don't appear to understand the concept of poking in lane. Her dashes aren't only about running away. They are about kiting while moving at full speed or even slightly higher.[/QOUTE]
I know that her dashes are to dodge, keep distance, escape, engage, etc. But does that have anything to do with the concept of poking in lane?
If I don't understand the concept of poking... then please tell me what part I don't understand.

She doesn't have to engage, because the poke is quite devastating alone.

I think you mean her pierce(Q) because she has to engage to 550 range to attack with her basic attacks.
We have compared her Q to Nidalee's Q hitting on 50% of the distance.
The max distance is a bit higher on Nidalee's Javelin toss but is unnoticeable as a poke.
Mana costs are the same. (considered nidalee as a caster)
Nidalee has a lower cooldown and thus increasing final damge by 33% (2/6)
Nidalee has more damage than Kalista if she buys AP. If she buys AD, Kalista will outdamage Nidalee on Q lvl 3
Kalista's poke is not high.

A riven needs to start close to engage on her, which is why a good Kalista will not let it happen. It's the same as any ranged champion, except that it's easier. If riven uses her abilities to get close, her damage will be low.

Kalista has a 550 basic attack range. Her dash will be either not, sideways or towards riven as long as she wants to deal some damage.
Riven can and will outdash 550 range with her Q and E and can stun Kalista before she manages to escape.
(This has been tried numberless times to get to this conclusion.)

Darius loses the lane precisely because he can't engage, which lets Kalista poke her indefinitely. Due to Rend her poke is strong enough to not be outlasted.

I think you haven't thought about that Darius can pull Kalista to him as his pull range is (almost) the same as Kalista's basic attack range.
What do you mean with cannot engage?

Ranked isn't everything.

Saying random statements is also weird... Your statement is true but it doesn't give me any information to what we discuss.

Kalista does have counters, yes, but they're not so much about playstyle than champion choice.

This can mean 2 things. I think you wanted to say "but they're less about playstyle than champion choice."
In that case, yes AND no.
Yes because kalista can be a total bully to some champions for example Udyr no matter how you play (as Udyr).
No because your playing style is everything you can count on when you are playing against any kiting champion. You have to use your opponents mobility to engage on them. This is the same playing style as you need with Quinn or really good Vaynes. (Vayne's kiting is only strong if she can outdamage you.)

tl;dr - Kalista is exactly about being hard to engage on, which, in combination with her high damage currently makes her very strong as a toplaner.

"high damage" is a bit overrated. Kalista has decreased attack speed because of her dash, her poke is not very high and she is missing 2 abilities including her ult.

Apparently you haven't read what I wrote previously, because I'm speaking of personal experience, not theory.

story

Let me give you a real example of feedback of champions.
This one is about Ziggs not very long ago. (These are short summaries of the whole post.)
Feedback 1:
"Ziggs is a champion that has high AoE damage on long range with high initiating damage on close range.
He has a good escape and has very dangerous crowd control.
Conclusion: Ziggs is OP!"

Feedback 2:
"Ziggs is a champion with very low single target damage, bad escape and hugh mana consumption. He has very low crowd control and is very squishy.
Conclusion: Ziggs is not viable under any sircumstances."

Now which one is right?
Except for the conclusions, they both are.
These feedbacks are personal experiece. The first one was made by an Udyr who played as a jungler against Ziggs. The second one is made by a Ziggs player who was in lane against a Syndra.
In the first one, Ziggs was a good player who knew how to play him and how to lane.
His high damage came from the fact that he had better/more items than his opponents. The Crowd Control facts are because he knew how to use his abilities. (Satchel Charge's effect increases with the right positioning and timing. Aka an ability that scales with player skill.)

In the second one, the Ziggs was already behind and had low damage compared to the initiation of syndra. He didn't care about being low on mana and was not very good in landing his knockback. The squishy part is just a disadvantage of every caster with low health, armor and magic resist.

But as I said, they are both true.
The problem is that they are based on personal experience and therefor the skill of the player has very much impact on the conclusions.
The power of the champion must not include the skill of the player because that one is different for each and every player. You can determine different powers based on certain skill levels but you cannot compare them any more.

Personal experience don't matter to call a champion OP.

 

[Xonok]

Saying random statements is also weird... Your statement is true but it doesn't give me any information to what we discuss.

This can mean 2 things. I think you wanted to say "but they're less about playstyle than champion choice."
In that case, yes AND no.
Yes because kalista can be a total bully to some champions for example Udyr no matter how you play (as Udyr).
No because your playing style is everything you can count on when you are playing against any kiting champion. You have to use your opponents mobility to engage on them. This is the same playing style as you need with Quinn or really good Vaynes. (Vayne's kiting is only strong if she can outdamage you.)


"high damage" is a bit overrated. Kalista has decreased attack speed because of her dash, her poke is not very high and she is missing 2 abilities including her ult.

Again, what I'm pointing at is not that she's got more damage than anyone(In fact, against kayle support in bot-lane she's miserable), but that she counters some types of champions very hard due to the combination of higher mobility than vayne with damage that stacks up enough to beat tanks. Of course, there is always the choice of not going in to CS, but as a melee champion there's really no other way in many cases, which makes Kalista a very strong lane bully against them.

Also, comparing her to vayne is somewhat logical due to similar playstyle, but they are still not the same in terms of mobility. Kalista by far beats vayne in kiting back, while vayne is more of an assaulter, meaning that Vayne can not use her mobility as well to avoid retaliation, while Kalista is designed to do exactly that.

 

[Strikest]

The thing I notice about Kalista is that although does have very strong kiting potential, she is still very weak to assassins, as with any adc. Master Yi, Fizz, Zed, etc can all kill her before she finishes winding up her attack for Martial Pose.