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Two-handed & Shield?

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What if allow to equip both Two-handed weapon and shield, but place shield on the back of character and remove 20% damage blocking bonus? Stat bonuses from shield will remain active.
148090d1440922650-two-handed-shield-ds_example_1.jpg

148091d1440922650-two-handed-shield-ds_example_2.jpg

148092d1440922650-two-handed-shield-ds_example_3.jpg

148093d1440922650-two-handed-shield-ds_example_4.jpg


ds_example_1.jpgds_example_2.jpgds_example_3.jpgds_example_4.jpg
Pros:
- Two-handed weapon will not cripple squire/crusader with removing fifth inventory slot.
- This method doesn't require internal item registry change. (so, no code wipe as with [thread=261795]books idea[/thread])
- It will look badass!

Cons:
- Requires some modelling and scripting.

And you can add even more mechanics for this, like preventing backstabs and "attack from back" bonuses. But main idea is to use stat bonuses for squires/crusaders(/berserkers?) in two-handed builds, so it will be enough.
 
Level 7
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Just noticed that Mystics can not use Staff & Shield too. So this suggestion can be applied for them aswell.

Really, how Hexblade staff-dps/offtank can be usefull if she can use only 4 items? Bonus from Draining Timber will not override stat loss from missing shield.
 

SHBlade

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Well Alex is right, hex need some more love cause he can't hold aggro at all, his staff build is useless since she don't have misc to use with staff and dancing blades spell need to be buffed cause with full crusader's gear it does 240 dmg total, it's meh compared to other aoes.
 

Jumbo

Hosted Project GR
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From a feature perspective I'd say: Good idea though it doesn't look good with the larger shields.

However it depends on balance, amount of work and ratio of importance compared to other things (which are more important).

As stated, I like the idea though. Perhaps reduce block value of shield to 0 and cut armor value to 50% or even less. I have no clue how to balance this, but I suspect making the shield act more like a normal misc item (hence the reduced armor gain) would work well. Finally, perhaps making a differentiation between large and small shields so that only small ones work for this. But all of this really seems like a lot of work =/
 
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Draining timber is meant to offset the stat loss from the shield. And it does so quite well. People greatly overestimate the amount of stats on misc items.
Let's compare, for example foothill items:

Serpent Staff*
Staff
Honor Guard
Shield
Shield of the Cavalry
Shield
Soulguard
Sword
The Batter Edge
Sword
HP: +35
MP: +40
Ar: +7
Sp: +8
Int: +8
PR: +25%
MR: +15%

Draining Timber
AP: +16
Block: 20%
HP: +70
AR: +17
EV: +3%
INT: +6
HST: +10%
Block: 20%
HP: +50
AR: +14
EV: +5%
STR: +4
INT: +5
FR: +10%
WR: +10%
HP: +50
AP: +23
INT: +8
AR: +7
SP: +6
HST: +5%
AP: +27
STR: +6
AGI: +11
CR: +6%
ARP: +5
*only this staff is not restricted to certain class

Staff overall bonuses with Draining Timber are slightly better than Sword bonuses, but don't forget that player must pay 1 ability slot for this bonus.

So 16 AP worth losing shield bonuses? In my opinion - totally no.
Trade 20% damage reduction & 1 ability slot to 16 AP and mage stats? I guess this is fair.


Currenly the game has five classes with weak itemization:
- Squire with two-handed: only 4 item slots.
- Crusader with two-handed: only 4 item slots.
- Mystic with staff: only 4 item slots.
- Hexblade with staff: only 4 item slots.
- Bard with offhand: almost all skills require instrument. Well this is not critical problem i guess.

I see here 2 solutions:
- Add class restricted items with higher stats to fill the missing misc item bonuses. Lot of work, require balancing, models, time, and will reduce chances to drop widely useful items.
- Add way to use misc item with two-handed/staff, like Berserker can use Trophies or Magician can use Gems. And here you can use shields. And if you remove only 20% frontal reduction from shield, it will become pretty balanced survival misc item.


I just want to say that it's nice to have choice in character itemization. You can make squire-tank or squire-heavy-hit, mystic-tank or mystic-caster-dps.
But when your choice looks like "Take shield with one-handed and be cool, or take two-handed/staff and die quickly for nothing (dps bonus doesn't noticeable to fill around -40% survivability)"...
STR classes just need some love :)
 
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Jumbo

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Some valid points Alex.
I think to prevent cluttering the boss drop lists it is a good idea to make these new items (buyable)recipe based with already implemented materials: for low lvl based on basilisk poison & searing blood. For later, shadowgem etc.
 
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I did not play Mystic long enough to be able to judge, but 2-handed/staff + shield is a big nope for me. Its not about the looks or how realistic it is (whether the shield is on the back or not), but rather about the choice the players have to make. Its the same for Squire: shield for defense or 2handed for more dmg.

If Staff + Timer is too weak compared to Sword+Shield, a possible solution would be to create some Accessory items which are slightly stronger than normal Accessories, but can only be worn if no offhand is equipped. Maybe call them "Bracers" or something, doesnt matter..
 
Level 7
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If Staff + Timer is too weak compared to Sword+Shield, a possible solution would be to create some Accessory items which are slightly stronger than normal Accessories, but can only be worn if no offhand is equipped. Maybe call them "Bracers" or something, doesnt matter..
Simple and elegant, this solution even better than i suggest :)

Really, accessory that can be equipped only when offhand is free sounds good.
So it will be mail accessory that have accessory + shield (trophy?) stats.
Nice bonus that accessory doesn't need any models, so it's will only require item icons, some balancing and place in item registry & droptables.
It also will not break balance for Berserkers. And 2 free slots will be advantage, not curse.

Fully support your idea.


So itemization for classes will look like:

Squire / Crusader
One-handed + Shield + Helmet + Armor + Accessory + 1 potion
Two-handed + Helmet + Armor + Bracers + 2 potions

Berserker
One-handed + Shield + Helmet + Armor + Accessory + 1 potion
Two-handed + Trophy + Helmet + Armor + Accessory + 1 potion
Two-handed + Helmet + Armor + Bracers + 2 potions

Mystic / Hexblade
One-handed + Shield + Helmet + Armor + Accessory + 1 potion
Staff + Helmet + Armor + Bracers + 2 potions
 
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Level 7
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Yeah tbh I think things are fine now... We need Zwieb to focus on the most important stuff first, then these things can be fixed in version 1.3 ;-)
As far I know, Zwieb outsorcing item creation, so muzzel's idea with Bracers accessory will not hurt main development progress too much, but will benefit gameplay positively.
I guess it only require to create new item class and some scripting to prevent wearing it with shield/trophy.
So why not?
Add 10 accessories to the game (1 to riversdale mobs (white str), 1 to d1 (green str+int), 1 to trade route (white int), 1 to d2 (blue str), 2 to d3 (green str to mobs, blue str+int to boss), 2 to foothills mobs (green str, green int), 2 to foothills bosses (blue str, blue int) ) and this will be fine.
 

Zwiebelchen

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Current itemization of Foothills drops is and always was poor. This is due to me not having the time back then to properly balance the weapons and items inbetween it's categories.

For example, if we directly compare Soulguard to Serpent Staff, one will immediately notice that something is wrong there, considering Soulgard is better in almost every single stat, except that it has no +MP. Which is considered pretty valuable, but doesn't even come close to the additional +23 AP of Soulguard.

We are basicly comparing a ridicolously overpowered sword with a severely underpowered staff.

Not being able to use a shield when using a staff is a meaningful tradeoff that's here to stay. Most shield stats are defensive in nature. Using a staff to boost damage is meant to cause a severe loss in defensive stats. Remember that Hexblades have high defensive stats anyway due to being able to wear mail armor. To bring them in line with other damage dealers, these tradeoffs are neccesary so that you won't be able to build a jack-of-all-trades DPS-tank. I almost failed the Berserker design because of that. The +20% block change on shields was the result.

Yes, itemization has to be improved; but not for the current content. I hate retroactively meddling with items. Future itemization will probably be much better with Ihaz and Box working on it (they just have more time to do this right).
And no, I won't add another new offhand for this. We already have way too many misc item types in this game.
 
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...
Yes, itemization has to be improved; but not for the current content. I hate retroactively meddling with items. Future itemization will probably be much better with Ihaz and Box working on it (they just have more time to do this right).
And no, I won't add another new offhand for this. We already have way too many misc item types in this game.
So there will be class specifialized weapons at endgame for two-handed crusader / staff hexblade?
Sounds acceptable :) if they will be balanced as weapon+misc in one item.

Probably this is the best solution for now, just some builds will not be good for leveling, but will shine at endgame.
 
Level 7
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Probably won't be a perfect "balance". A 2h crusader probably won't ever be GOOD dps, though it certainly should be a better option than a sword + shield for straight up DPS.

I think it'd be annoying if people were going to load "Dps crusaders" and then refuse to tank because they are "DPS". So Im really unsure if creating an actual realistic alternative build is even a good idea in the first place.
 

Jumbo

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I think if, at the 'final' version of Gaias (whatever that will be), every class has at least 2 different (viable) core builds it will be enough.

What I mean here is not strict talent/ability builds with every talent & ability set in stone, but simply like how crusader will have a str based build (with the upcoming abilities) and the usual int build. If some classes have even more core builds then that's just great, but I think balancing a class for 2 options should be the basic aim.
I can see crusader going 2h making sense if there is already another tank in the group. If that tank dies, a 2h crusader, while not dedicated to the job, will probably be able to tank for a short while.

Bottom line is, if a class is optional in a group in its main role, it can provide support as a pseudo/lesser version of other roles that it wasn't intended for. This allows for a broader playability to each class, although for the hardest challenges only dedicated class roles will (should) be an option.

By the way, if a player refuses to do what makes sense, I suppose that player will quickly be ignored by the main community of skilled players :).
 
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Yeah I think thats the ideal. Two different builds but still the same role. So having a slightly better DPS option for a crusader isn't out of the question. However its still going to be silly to have multiple crusaders in a group (in terms of ideal group configuration) but one having the option of using a 2h and boosting DPS by 15% at the detriment to a ton of tanking (because the one with the shield would be tanking) would be a good thing.
 
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Yeah I think thats the ideal. Two different builds but still the same role. So having a slightly better DPS option for a crusader isn't out of the question.
You can make two-handed with big amount of HP (like +150 or +200 for endgame) especially for crusaders. This will create additional "meaty" tank build, where you take more (around +30%) damage from enemies but bigger HP pool keeps you alive. Also this build will drain healer's mana faster obviously, so DPS increase will be balanced.
Also player will not say "I'm a DPS crus", because all his abilities will generate pretty high aggro with higher DPS anyway :)

However its still going to be silly to have multiple crusaders in a group (in terms of ideal group configuration) but one having the option of using a 2h and boosting DPS by 15% at the detriment to a ton of tanking (because the one with the shield would be tanking) would be a good thing.
There are 4 different tank classes in the game currently. So we talking about having 2 tank classes in a group (theoretically this could be 2 crusaders, but sounds a bit weird). And i think this setup could be required for some endgame encounters, at least tank for boss + offtank for spawns (like in current Garg fight: ranger/mage holds aggro and crus/zerk holds beetles).
 
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