Quick changes to make Gaias Retaliation more newcomer friendly

[Jumbo]

Hi Zwie.
Here I suggest a few key points to make the game seem more interesting for new players:

1.
Decrease first spell prices from 250 to 200 (or maybe even 150). This is to let new people feel progress faster. As a new player, many people feel that the game is very repetitive and they leave before they get to see the great mid to endgame diversity and options, so this is a compensation.

2.
Include my previously suggested -help feature. I wrote a decent enough text for the purpose in an earlier topic and you could simple copy that without having to spend any time writing it yourself.

3.
decrease prices for the early buyable crap weapons at the blacksmith in Riversdale. This is similar in its proposed effect to that of point 1: Make the game feel more progressive early on.

Changes that require a bit more:
4.(perhaps harder to make)
Make death at lvl 1-5 more forgiving by not losing any gold and only taking 20 seconds to ress.

5.
Add a new quest to the rifleman after completion of the wolves quest with minimum requirement of lvl 4: Kill 10 spiders. This is to make early levelling slightly faster and, if the player wants to, more focused and guided.
Quest text: "Well laddy, if you are up for some more work the pesky forest spiders have been causing trouble on the road south of Riversdale. Kill 10 of them to make the road safer."
Quest complete text: "Ha! Well fighting those critters may seem hard now, but you better hope you won't meet the brood mother in the southern mountains any time soon. Now THAT's a nasty spider. But what am I saying, you did your job well, here is the reward lad."

 

[ryusora]

I don't think this ideas could be any better. I agree with Jumbo and i usually see newcomers dropping out of the game stupidly fast

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I plan to remove all chat commands from the game in the future updates and make them buttons, except for load, for obvious reasons.

There will also be a help button, along with the toggle buttons for music, pet behaviour, QI, etc.


About your other ideas: I highly doubt that reducing the price for the first skills or items and adding another quest for the spiders will change anything about leavers.
Most of the games I played, the randoms left after their first death, due to obviously not seeing the giant rest button. And seriously, I don't know what to do about that. If people miss that giant ability button with a tooltip clearly stating what it does, then no written helpfile in the world will help them.

And most people I've played with that left early didn't even say a single line before the game started or even after. Remember that you will find lots of people on the bnet and garena that do not speak english.
You obviously can't prevent those players from leaving. And obviously you wouldn't want to play a team-based game with them anyway.

 

[Jumbo]

Well have a little faith . I played this map since first release, and there are two kinds of early leavers in my experience: 1. is the group you described to whom, obviously, we cannot give help. 2.group however, are the people who play until lvl 5 and then leave saying "Boooorrriiing!". And in this group I believe a decent amount of players are lost to the game, even if they would have liked it.
You have to remember that it is hard to find groups of even 4 people, and so running around 2-3 player with mercs, takes a lot more time in general, but in early game that is especially boring with only 2, maybe 3 spells.

This is also the point with the spider quest, small groups who cannot do Crab or Wolf yet have to get higher lvled before taking them on than larger groups do.

On another note. The weapon prices for the crap whites in Riversdale shops are frankly ridiculuous. 150 for such crap is a lot early on and there is mostly no logical reason for buying them.

 

[doubtful]

I disagree.....
Boring?? wtf??
First of all the starting levels in Gaias are the best ! Especially for someone that is brand new in the map! I remember myself being so excited when i first played the map. Everything looked so cool to me.
And the prices are fine.
Those ppl leave the map in the first 10 seconds they have no clue how much cost the skills or whatever. The map looks too realistic to them and they leave. They prob look for a korean type of map or whatever...

The thing i would suggest is to increase the quest level of Crab's and Wolf's bosses by 2.
Cause at the start people are too weak to deal with Crab/Wolf and later on when they get lvls/items, the quests no loger provide any exp.

Another thing i want to suggest about gameplay is to reduce lose of gold upon death in general and not only for the low lvls. Cause in the end losing gold upon death results in griding which isnt fun in any way.
Reduce it to a point where players wont need to reload because they die and they happen to have 30k gold. especially now that we have 3 repicks instead of 5.

 

[Jumbo]

doubtful you are talking solely from your personal perspective. While I shared your optimism when I first tried Gaias in 2009, I know that many people don't feel the same. That is what I am trying to adress, not my personal feelings about this and that. All I want is for the Gaias Community to become bigger and with more players to play the game.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

I think I have to agree with Zwieb on this one. Those leaves are likely to leave regardless of what measures are taken to try and get them to enjoy the first few levels.

Though I do agree the Wolf and Crab quest level requirements should be raised a bit. I think it confuses some people when they get these quests at level 3 and then get destroyed by the bosses.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Hmm, I agree about the prices of white shop items. They are probably too high considering that they are basicly meant to be the starting equipment.

Crab quest is imho not an issue. When you get this quest, you are always at appropriate level, because, well, level 2 is the highest you need for it, if we are honest here.
The wolf is different; but I liked the idea to have a challenge upon the players that they can't immediately overcome and have to go back to after some more quests. Feels more open-rpg'ish to me.

Gold loss below level 10 is going to be removed, I agree on that it is a little bit too much of a punishment. I will also reduce respawn time to 30 seconds for level 10 and below.

 

[Jumbo]

Sounds good Zwie. And I totally agree about the open rpg aspect. Just because one CAN attack this big dangerous boss, doesn't mean that one has to . I dig it!

 

[ALEXz407]

I will also reduce respawn time to 30 seconds for level 10 and below.

Aimless waiting is the worst punishment in the game, it just ruining all fun and wasting time! Worst of all when you realize that nothing can be done with this. A couple of times I've seen people leave game after death, most likely because they do not want to wait.
But if a player had a choice: ressurect now and continue fun, or wait for a miracle to save money. The game will become better.

Is it possible to add "Ressurect in the nearest town" button to the tombstone? Button tooltip will prompt about gold loss upon death and about benefits of player ressurection.
Also center screen (and maybe lock camera target) to the tombstone and select it automatically so player can not miss the button and info about ressurection.
In addition you can add a pop-up window with 2 options "Resurrect in the nearest town immediatly (-20% gold)" or "Wait player ressurection".
Then you can even remove the resurrection timer, but it will also remove part of hardcore. Therefore it is better to keep it.

Do not forget that 30 seconds means less time for cleric ressurection which adds extra pressure on healer with low cast speed on low levels.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I'll make it dialog-based when I got time for this.

 

[nico4604282]

i liked the gaia the first time i saw it the problem is i only play alone, i cant find someone to play with in garena haha

 

[kevs926]

they clearly want to dota instead of gaias.

well i guess as a personal experience why i stayed away from the map back then was:

#1 too laggy, got a real bad pc back then
#2 not much people playing in my country
#3 no anime characters =)

well about #3, i finally got fed up with those KR rpgs even as a huge anime fan. As soon as i played gaias, i just stopped playing them. Simply put it, the difference in overall map quality is huge.

So what im saying is, as long as you played the map, you should be hooked already. These changes are unnecessary.

 

[Jumbo]

*oops wrong topic. Nevermind this post*

 

[ALEXz407]

A few ideas for 1.2B that will make newcomers start more friendly:

Tutorial quest

This will help newcomers to quickly understand main functions used in the game.
And reward will make gameplay more interesting for begginers, because gameplay with some classes is too dull (ranger, squire).

It is accepted automatically after 1 second from hero selection and has several points:
- Kill a Wolf.
- Place any item into F2 Backpack. (completed when hero picks up something into backpack, even starting item)
- 'Rest' after battle. (compeleted when hero uses 'Rest')
- Enable quickbar icons in options. (completed when hero uses 'Toggle Game Interface')
> Talk with newbie NPC at the start point. (special NPC guide. He talks about abilities, something like: "Good job! As a reward I will teach you new ability. You can learn more abilities from trainers around the world and from ancient scrolls which only strongest creatures carry. But remember, you can use only 9 abilities at the same time, so choose wisely.")
Reward: Teaches you third ability: Squire - 'Gaping Wounds', Ranger - 'Claw Strike', Thief - 'Embrittling Acid', Cleric - 'Crippling Curse' and Magician - 'Frost Cage'.

And player now knows:
- How to use a backpack.
- How to rest after battle.
- How to learn new abilities and how much them in total.
- Where is game options.

Also, it does not make the game too easy, because you still must buy abilities for normal D1 run.

Pros:
- Teaches newcomers how to play.
- Makes starting gameplay more interesting.

Cons:
- None

Smart ressurection

It's not a secret that death in Gaias is very distressing. Not because you lost 20% of your gold at high levels, but because you must wait 60 seconds to revive or repick a character and only thing what you can do - leave the game.
I suggest change 'Ressurection' behaviour to more smart. Reduce cooldown to 1 second, but when you use it:
- Check battle status of all mobs and players within 2000 radius around the gravestone.
- If at least 1 target is in the battle, fail resurrect (start 1 sec cooldown) and show error message to the player: "You can not ressurect when there is a fight nearby."
This will make ressurection more responsive, because it depends on the players and not on the annoying timer.

Pros:
- Solo players will not waste their time waiting for ressurection cooldown.
- Random death while you run to your party through mobs will not lead to "60 seconds + travel again" waiting for all party.
- You can not ressurect during boss fight, so it will work like in World of Warcraft - if you start a boss, only ressurection from a healer can help you, or a party wipe/win.
- More reasons to communicate between players, from "go go, I believe in you, we can kill this boss!" to "oh come on, just die all and let me res".

Cons:
- None

Experience boost

Double experience gained from killing mobs until you reach 10 level.
You can add a dummy buff 'Begginer' with tooltip "You gain twice experience from killing mobs and do not lose gold when die" to indicate this.

Pros:
- Better feeling of progression.
- More noticeable when you don't receive exp from killing low-level mobs.
- Newcomers can faster achieve very first talents.

Cons:
- None

Guaranteed gold

Now players do not get gold from killing starting mobs. This can be confusing for newcomers and makes more difficult gearing (especially if you not lucky with drops).
I suggest to add minimum guaranteed reward for each monster equal to 1 gold.
By the way, Zwiebelchen is already planning something similar in the new version:

I'm also thinking about introducing a gold penalty for larger groups (like 30% less gold income for each character in shared-XP range), simply because the new ressurection mechanic has eliminated a huge gold sink.

--> So basicly the new kill gold is DROP*0.5[if merc]*0.7^(n-1)+1 with n being the number of players around. +1 is added so that a kill definitely awards a gold piece at the beginning of the game.

Pros:
- Better feeling of progression.
- A bit easier to buy first items/abilities.

Cons:
- None

---

All these changes can make Gaias more friendly to newcomers. As a consequence, reduce the number of people who leave after a few minutes of the gameplay.
I think that sometimes can sacrifice part of difficulty at low levels to make gameplay more interesting and addictive.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

There's a problem with tutorials, though:

Most people that leave the game early don't speak english.

 

[ALEXz407]

There's a problem with tutorials, though:

Most people that leave the game early don't speak english.

Then a little strange that they come into the RPG. Doesn't they see what map description is in English and not localized to their language? Hmm.

Anyway it is possible to make it more accessible using simple words, sentences and hotkey buttons. Like this:

• Kill a Wolf. [Use abilities with 'F1' => 'Q' and attack an enemy with right click]
• Place any item into a Backpack. [Press 'F2' => pick up the item with right click]
• Rest after a fight. [Press 'F1' => 'R']
• Toggle pet behaviour in options. [Press 'F1' => 'Z' => 'Z']
• Talk to "Insert_Name" at the hut. [Select NPC with left click => click on the scroll]

Is it possible to add a colored short description next to the item that needs to be done?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

This wasn't about the language in general; I'm just pointing out a fundamental flaw in your thinking:
Most people that leave the game early don't leave because they don't understand everything at once. There are far more complicated games throughout the web.

They leave because:
1) everyone loaded highlevels and they aren't but don't want to play alone
2) it's not their kind of game
3) language barrier
4) mother is angry and wants them to go to bed

I'd say only a tiny number of people leave because they don't instantly understand the mechanics of resting and backpacks. And if they do, you're better up without them anyway because ... let's be honest ... they don't have enough patience for this game.

 

[ALEXz407]

I'd say only a tiny number of people leave because they don't instantly understand the mechanics of resting and backpacks. And if they do, you're better up without them anyway because ... let's be honest ... they don't have enough patience for this game.

Well without real 'Exit polls' we can only speculate about it.

And I'm not talking only about the resting and backpacks.
Gaias has a lot of opportunities, but the player does not aware of them.
- Where you can find what there are so many abilities for each class and you can learn up to 9?
- Who tells you about mercenaries?
That's two main points about information.

About patience. I am ready to be patient when I know what it's worth it.
But why people that just start the game and only met two skills, options and two generic (run to point / kill 15 mobs) quests will be patient?
Chances that this patience test "Wait 60 seconds until ressurect" will fail grow strongly with low playtime.

That's why I suggest to make ressurection more smart; to add more action, more information about possibilities and speed up progression at low levels. To let newcomers feel what this map can grant them if they continue to play.
To quickly switch them from "What I need to do?" state into "I want to do it!" state.

They leave because:
1) everyone loaded highlevels and they aren't but don't want to play alone
2) it's not their kind of game
3) language barrier
4) mother is angry and wants them to go to bed

Yes, it's possible too.

 

[Jumbo]

Yes I really agree with Alex on this one. If we exclude all those people who just leave, because, well, they had to then I believe Alex' idea of early thoughts about 'Time vs. reward' hits the nail. Think about it, many RPGs in Warcraft 3 are poorly designed with very monotonous gameplay and some newcomers may believe that Gaias is the same since they only have 2 spells with no progression until 10 minutes into the game.

The psychology that Alex likes to talk about D) is what's important here. Whatever useless rewards you give people early on (meaning first 5 minutes) will be enough for them to feel progression. Maybe even add an item reward for the tutorial quest: a slightly better weapon or simply a potion of hp.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

I don't think its that big of an issue. I don't think the game needs to go total "hold your hand" mode throughout the start. As long as the newcomers and communicate (which is usually the biggest issue in leaving) and work together there should be no issue.

The one thing I will say though is it could be a good idea to somehow explain the importance of the trinity roles in gaias. I think one of the biggest problems for noobies is they're used to poorly designed Wc3 RPG's where you can just pick the fast attacking DPS characters and have it work throughout the entire game. This isn't true in gaias so you end up with 3 noobies picking thieves or magicians and then they find it difficult to make it anywhere.

As far as the actual progression goes though.. I really don't see it as much of an issue. Maybe the 1 minute ressurection timer is a bit harsh under level 10 but otherwise the game is well balanced.

 

[ALEXz407]

The psychology that Alex likes to talk about D) is what's important here.

And I do not rely on guesswork, there is research devoted to this: Skinner box and Behavioral Game Design.

I don't think its that big of an issue. I don't think the game needs to go total "hold your hand" mode throughout the start. As long as the newcomers and communicate (which is usually the biggest issue in leaving) and work together there should be no issue.

What do you say about players who want to try Gaias solo, because they just download it from Hiveworkshop's Maps section and can not/don't want find any players yet?
It is wrong to leave players uninformed, even Dark Souls have some sort of tutorial for newcomers. By the way this game is a real example of addictive gameplay.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

I think if you play an ORPG map solo you should expect it to be difficult. With this expectation with playing solo you should also be thinking that you're going to need some patience.

Im all for adding tutorials to explain to people how the backpack works and all that, but changing the fundamental gameplay things just to give people more stuff more quickly isn't always a good thing.

Explaining the benefits of having a tank/healer. Explaining how the backpack works, and explaining that there are mercenaries would be things I am for. What I am not for is just handing people new skills, more money, and more items just for loading the game. Though most of these changes are largely irrelevant just because War3 doesn't have the playerbase to support really worrying about how low levels will stick around to play a map. If gaias was a stand alone MMORPG type game where you would expect a bunch of new players to be constantly trying it out, I agree that things could be done better. But in a realistic sense, since we're dealing with Warcraft 3 here, I just don't see it as a big deal in the big picture.

 

[ALEXz407]

I think if you play an ORPG map solo you should expect it to be difficult. With this expectation with playing solo you should also be thinking that you're going to need some patience.

Patience... I'll show you an example:
Player starts new game with Ranger hero. Because he plays solo, he has low damage and must rest after each battle.
Well it could be fine if battles are interesting, but on low levels you use only 1 ability each 10 seconds...
And due to zero gold income until you met 4+ lvl mobs you stuck with 1 button for around 30 minutes minimum.
Yes, interesting quests can keep the player, but very dull battle experience will ruin everything. And if player will die more than one time...

Three abilities shortly after game start and less punishing ressurection can save the situation. Game will be still hard, but more interesting.

Im all for adding tutorials to explain to people how the backpack works and all that, but changing the fundamental gameplay things just to give people more stuff more quickly isn't always a good thing.

This changes will affect only very first levels of the game, 10-50 progression will remain in current state.
Players also will not receive everything (no items, no gold), they only will receive more abilities to make their game experience brighter.

And why it isn't a good thing?

You have seen that players leave a game because there are too many fancy rewards at first gameplay minutes?
Will you agree that chances of losing a player due to dull and slow gameplay are much higher?

Though most of these changes are largely irrelevant just because War3 doesn't have the playerbase to support really worrying about how low levels will stick around to play a map. If gaias was a stand alone MMORPG type game where you would expect a bunch of new players to be constantly trying it out, I agree that things could be done better. But in a realistic sense, since we're dealing with Warcraft 3 here, I just don't see it as a big deal in the big picture.

And that's why better to fear few newbies away with boring start? Seems logical, eh.

What I am not for is just handing people new skills, more money, and more items just for loading the game.

And again. I'm not saying to give everything at once.
I suggest speed up this process for low levels to make game start more dynamical.

Explaining the benefits of having a tank/healer. Explaining how the backpack works, and explaining that there are mercenaries would be things I am for.

And all this things can be explained during the tutorial.

---

There are very good tutorial: [thread=247422][Mapping] The First 30 seconds of a map is like the First 30 seconds of a blind date[/thread].

So I build a timeline of [post=2646392]this game session[/post]. Timeline builded for our Squire tank and contains first 60 minutes of gameplay. And I remind: our party was builded with experienced players: skipping quest texts, know where to go, etc. I think for newbies this timeline will have more deaths and bigger intervals between quests.

Timeline

As you can see first five minutes of game rewards us with:
- Three quests.
- 1 level up.
- Some fights with wolves.

Gameplay wise player doesn't receive anything new in this interval. Well, maybe one-two white items if he's lucky.

Gameplay really changes only at 34 minute of the game time when we have some money for new abilities. Also you can see what gameplay gains new depths very fast with new ability, because it's easier to farm bosses and buy seconds ability (look at 42 minute).

Well, maybe a party with 6 players will progress faster, but I think they will not buy new ability before 15-20 minutes from game start. And it's bad.

Now about some "Quit-cases" for newbies

Look at this timeline:

Unlucky newbie timeline

It demonstrates typical beginner behaviour - attack a big party of mobs and die (because he doesn't know about death penalty yet).
I highlight here two exit points:
- First. Newbie see 60 seconds revive time and leave game, because he doesn't have yet any reasons to wait so long.
- Second. Newbie now know about death penalty and trying to avoid death. But if he die again (especially at the first minutes of the game) he will leave with high probability.

And here is another timeline:

Careless fighter newbie timeline

It demonstrates "No quests" or "Immediatly to the battle" behaviour.
Player begins to farm mobs shortly after game start and ignores quests.
He gain first level and... no reward! After some iterations player will just leave the game because gameplay doesn't change until you farm 150g, and without quests and luck it can take very long time.
Frankly, I doubt that he even comes to Riversdale and finds out that it is possible to learn more abilities.

---

Now let's look at timeline with tutorial quest.

Tutorial timeline

You can see what first 5 minutes of gameplay very rich with different events.

Tutorial quest accepted automatically, so even people who ignore quests will see it. And if you will say what quest reward will help in the battle, they will complete it.
Also tutorial initiates first battle for the newbie, so he will not rush right to the next pack of mobs and will learn other aspects of the game with tutorial quest.
Ability reward for tutorial quest will make gameplay more interesting, also it will add new thing to learn (player will learn his 2 buttons pretty fast, third will not let him get bored).

After tutorial (or parallel thereto) player will accept first quest. This will help to dive into Gaias setting.

On the way to the second quest, player will reach 2 level. Well it doesn't add anything gameplay wise, but will show progress to the player.

Until the end of the fifth minute player will reach second quest.
And I think at this point he would be interested enough to keep playing.

Important! Death in the first five minutes of the game will destroy effect of immersion, because player will have to wait a whole minute!
That's why ressurection without cooldown and with player based behaviour must be in Gaias. It will less hurt immersion and will initiate contact between players (so player doesn't just wait, he can ressurect immediatly or talk with party if their fight prevents it).

---

Let's be honest. Everyone will benefit from additional players:
- Beginners because they will be able to learn such a cool map better.
- Veterans because there will be more players for dungeon raiding.

So why not make the map more friendly to newcomers?

Attachments

 

[BoxOfFaith]

You're really over complicating and exaggerating this issue. The biggest draw and drawback ultimately comes down to communication. If you have people there playing with you and progressing with you and being friendly, players will stay. If its one person alone and dies repeatedly he will leave.

You can make all the changes in the world to attempt to prevent this but it ultimately comes down to the groups players are with. You can't really account for these things in any way, and I see no purpose in dumbing down the game just so some impatient 14 year olds will be more willing to play.

 

[ALEXz407]

You're really over complicating and exaggerating this issue. The biggest draw and drawback ultimately comes down to communication. If you have people there playing with you and progressing with you and being friendly, players will stay. If its one person alone and dies repeatedly he will leave.

You see only one side of the medal. I'm trying to tell you about the other side.

Yes, good communication is very important part of multiplayer games. And good party can make even bad balanced and very simply game interesting.
In fact, experienced gaias players currently play the role of "Tutorial" for newbies, they teach them game basics and increase expectations talking about game possibilities.

But it is better to see once than hear a hundred times.
I mean, this would have a much greater influence on the newcomer if this information will be part of his personal experience.

If the initial gameplay will be interesting enough for one player you will receive very good results.
Newcomer can start map solo, at the first steps it will be very intertaining and informational (so he want play more), at the next steps he will face things that he can not do solo (bosses for example).
And here he have two choices now:
- continue playing solo and ignore this things until higher levels (killing mobs and doing easy quests) or ...
- call his friends to the game and do it together (because the player interested, he have information about the game and can "advertise" this map to his friends).

You see? Easier game for beginners is not evil.

You can make all the changes in the world to attempt to prevent this but it ultimately comes down to the groups players are with. You can't really account for these things in any way, and I see no purpose in dumbing down the game just so some impatient 14 year olds will be more willing to play.

So you think that all early game leavers are 14 impatient year olds? We both know that's not true.
And we do not know how many people do not reach multiplayer games, because they try this map solo and close it due to described earlier reasons.

"Acceleration" is not equal to "Dumbing down".
It does not remove gameplay mechanics. It removes things that interfere with immersion into Gaias.
What is wrong if players will defeat first boss after 10 minutes of gameplay, learn fourth ability after 15 minutes, start d1 after 20 minutes and learn first talent after 30 minutes (or even faster)?

---

I do not want to say that the game is bad. Of course not, I played it for more than 100 hours in 2014 year (and around 5 hours in 2015). I've played so many hours because it was a good company and I have enough patience to "survive" starting location (also balance, nice setting and quests had important role then).
Also, high scores indicate overall good quality of the map. But don't forget that in order to vote for the map you must write a comment.
So we see the reviews from players who have passed the starting levels and felt all the features of the game.
If a player just leave the map after 5 minutes of gameplay he will not go to the maps sections and write a comment about it, he will simpy ignore it. But if all of a sudden he wrote it, his opinion will drown in the angry comments from players that play in this game more time and understand how it's cool.

---

And two more ideas how to make Gaias more newcomer-friendly:

Tutorial second part -save

This is just a small quest that is available after completion of tutorial. Player writes "-save" and after talking with NPC receive one HP potion and one MP potion.

Pros:
- Creates a "point of return" for newcomer in the Warcraft III directory.
- Gives a try for consumables in action.
- Shows the other players that the newcomer has completed the tutorial.

Cons:
- None

Guaranteed scrolls drop

It's no secret that the new abilities make the game more interesting.
However, this is very frustrating when you can not get new ability and must farm and farm those damned bosses dozens of times, because you are very unlucky. (50+ Zibnix kills to get 'Meteor Strike', sound familiar?).

I suggest to separate ability scrolls drop from main drop table and count them separately with this rules:
- When you kill the boss there is a chance (25% for world bosses, 33% for d1/d2, 100% for Gar'Tok & Sarash) that scroll will drop.
- Dropped scroll based on the alive heroes withing 2000 radius around the boss. So if you kill a d1 boss with party "Squire, Cleric, Thief, Thief" scroll drop chances will be "25% - 'Revenge', 25% - 'Burst of Light', 50% - 'Sweeping Blades'".

Pros:
- Faster progression in the game => more positive feelings from the game.
- Relevant rewards for players.
- Still rare and enjoyable reward.
- If player want to farm ability for himself, he must do it solo or with same classes (some meta challenge/fun).

Cons:
- None

 

[doubtful]

Making it easier to get these spells from bosses? I agree !

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Making it easier to get these spells from bosses? I agree !

Hmm... the droprates could be adjusted, I agree. Imho, it makes no sense these bosses drop friggin' potions most of the time, especially when people could actually need crafting materials and scrolls more. :/

 

[Ihazdialup]

okay I have a problem with what Alex is trying to push across, hes trying to use theoretics to make gaias more noob friendly. Thats fine, but Box and I have thousands, I literaly mean thousands, of hours for both of us playing, and most noobs that quit, quit because of the language barrier or are impatient 13 year olds, very rarely have we seen someone drop because they couldn't figure it out

 

[Antivirus123]

Started to love the game cause its so hard... I dont see why you want to make everything easy.. Gaias allways had a big playerbase and i think many people love that it isnt as easy as most other game
Why casualize everything?
I agree on no pots on low bosses but 100% on spellscrolls?
Free items for not being to stupid to check whats in your action bar and top left screen?
Why??

 

[Devlain]

I read everything and I think more quests on starting zones could be helpful
Last night I played with 3 friends of mine. One of our friends loved TKoK but found Gaias pretty unnecesarily grindy, and even other 3 people enjoyed the game, I think he was somehow right.

I offer the next quests as a solution:
-Tutorial quest for UI and controls management -> Gives your first weapon (a pretty basic weapon, that's that are dropped by wolves)
-Kill Crab boss/Kill Wolf boss -> your first world boss scroll/any other skill

I think it is much more fascinating and rewarding to have interesting quests rewards that to grind for one of your basics skills xD

Really, the game could be faster without being a babysitter of the player, there's not reason to be zealous about hardcore gaming.

And grinding is not hardcore gaming. The fights and content still could be hard and challenging without exagerated grinding mechanics.

Grind is an important part of RPG design because it prolongs lenght of play time and helps the user to get used to the game's mechanics, but It shoudn't be unnecessarily extensive.

 

[ALEXz407]

Well okay. If you think that use of the experience proven over the years is a bad idea. And if half+ of the community against my ideas I have nothing to do here.

---

UPD: In any case, I sketched function for guaranteed class drop in a pseudo-language. Maybe it would be interesting for Zwieb.
It will work in more rewarding way that just increased drop chances for scrolls.
Because only increased scroll drop rates will still lead to scroll drops for other classes, and in addition will reduce wearable items drop chances.

You can config:
- what unit (boss or maybe normal mob)
- with which chance (from 0 to 1 = 100%)
- what item can drop for each class ('Dummy' if class doesn't have drop)

So each entry in bossdrops is one item drop intended for one from nearest heroes, if you are lucky and this item drops.
You can use it not only for ability scrolls, but also for different "class only" items.

Config:

// List of all hero units ID-s, used for selecting drop from droptables.
herodrops = (
  'Squire', 'Berserker', 'Crusader',
  'Thief', 'Assassin', 'Bard',
  'Ranger', 'Hunter', 'Druid',
  'Cleric', 'Bishop', 'Monk',
  'Magician', 'Necromancer', 'Sorcerer'
); // unit ID

// Droptables, each position it table means item for class specified in herodrops. Use 'Dummy' ID if there are no drop for specified class.
droptables = (
  ('Heroic Presence','Heroic Presence','Heroic Presence',
  'Blurred Motions','Blurred Motions','Blurred Motions',
  'Feline Reflexes','Feline Reflexes','Feline Reflexes',
  'Confidence','Confidence','Confidence',
  'Fire Shield','Fire Shield','Fire Shield'
  ),
  ('Revenge','Revenge','Revenge',
  'Sweeping Blades','Sweeping Blades','Sweeping Blades',
  'Barbed Arrow','Barbed Arrow','Barbed Arrow',
  'Burst of Light','Burst of Light','Burst of Light',
  'Meteor Strike','Meteor Strike','Meteor Strike'
  ),
  ('Dummy','Lightning Blade','Emergency',
  'Dummy','Into the Shades','Song of Elements',
  'Dummy','Beast Fury','Recovery',
  'Dummy','Flash of Light','Stone Skin',
  'Dummy','Detonating Bones','Water Elemental'
  )
); // item ID

// List of bosses/mobs ID-s with item drop chances and droptable ID.
bossdrops = (
  ('Crab', 0.25, 0),
  ('Zibnix', 0.35, 1),
  ('GartokSarash_TopChest', 0.8, 2)
); // unit ID, float drop chance, int droptable index

Function (called when unit die)

function ClassDrops (unit killedUnit)
{
  item[] drops; // create empty array for possible drop
  unit[] unitsAround; // array for units around killed unit
  int dropID; // dropped item index
  for (n = 0; n < bossdrops.length; n++) // loop through boss drop tables
  {
    if (killedUnit.ID == bossdrops[n,0]) // check if killed unit ID is in the bossdrops array
    {
      if (bossdrops[n,1] <= randomFloat(1)) // roll for item drop
      {
        drops = null; // clear drops array in case of second boss entry in bossdrops array
        unitsAround = TakeAllUnitsInRangeAroundUnit (2000, killedUnit); // select all units around killed boss
        foreach (UnitsAround as pickedUnit)
        {
          for (m = 0; m < herodrops.length; m++) // loop through hero ID-s
          {
            if (pickedUnit.ID == herodrops[m]) // picked unit ID is one of our heroes?
            {
              if (droptables[bossdrops[n,2],m] != 'Dummy') // ignore 'Dummy' placeholders
              {
                drops.push(droptables[bossdrops[n,2],m]); // add item to possible drop
              }
              break; // save processor time and exit loop through hero ID-s
            }
          }
        }
        if (drops.length > 0) // check that we have at least 1 item in drops array
        {
          dropID = 0; // just in case
          dropID = randomInt(drops.length)-1; // pick random item number from possible drop and convert to array index
          CreateItemAtPosition(drops[dropID], killedUnit.position);
        }
      }
    }
  }
  // now clear memory from leaks
  drops = null;
  unitsAround = null;
  dropID = 0;
}

 

[Devlain]

Well okay. If you think that use of the experience proven over the years is a bad idea. And if half+ of the community against my ideas I have nothing to do here.

Man, don't be that way.
I hardly speak English, and most of the times people just ignores my post but I still being here and I don't think your posts are unnecesary, but (without offense) you have flooded the forums with suggestions and ideas; and people are naturally resistant to changes so it takes time to a community to accept changes in a design.

 

[TooMuch]

Hmm the problem here is that Alex talks and disregards while the community is wondering why they even bother. Alex, suggestions from the player base is good and all but seriously tone it down some. we have yet to even complete the game in itself. who knows what can change over this year.

besides if people really just join the game and are not interested for any reason and just leave at the start, then why bother? apparently gaias has done well without such newcomer help in the beginning. and it prolly still will. and if anything, it keeps the casuals away.

yeah we can add some instructional details like boxoffaith said, but lets just finish the storyline of this game at least. once we done that, then we can begin to refine it.

or lest we make it like WoW, where end game content only matters and we might as well "buy lvl 50" Power level GO!!!! haha

drop rates on the spell scrolls though... man sometimes it feels like they're not even there..

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I think the wolves quest could be toned down a little. 15 wolves usually happens after visiting Riversdale, which is a tad too late. Also, I think he has a point with the lack of rewards from low level quests. I think it wouldn't be a bad thing to add some of the white items to quest rewards for unlucky dudes.

Crab and Wolf are hard enough on their own for beginners. I don't think a free wooden mail will change that a lot.
This and increased droprates for scrolls. Not 100%, though. Instead, I add more recipe materials to boss drops aswell. I've played a lot of games where people intended to build something from a recipe, like Gladius, Emerald Staff, etc. ... but couldn't because they were missing crafting components like iron ore or hide. I think the first recipes should be easier accessable.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

I think the wolves quest could be toned down a little. 15 wolves usually happens after visiting Riversdale, which is a tad too late. Also, I think he has a point with the lack of rewards from low level quests. I think it wouldn't be a bad thing to add some of the white items to quest rewards for unlucky dudes.

Crab and Wolf are hard enough on their own for beginners. I don't think a free wooden mail will change that a lot.
This and increased droprates for scrolls. Not 100%, though. Instead, I add more recipe materials to boss drops aswell. I've played a lot of games where people intended to build something from a recipe, like Gladius, Emerald Staff, etc. ... but couldn't because they were missing crafting components like iron ore or hide. I think the first recipes should be easier accessable.

I don't mind this . I will admit there are a lot of times where it takes a lot of luck to receive certain materials, and if playing in groups where multiple people need the same materials (Like if you have 2 squires) it is a huge pain. It ends up being easier to just go get a copper axe from the trade route than trying to continue to farm low level materials.

Also out of curiosity... It'd be kinda cool if each dungeon had something unique that you'd want to get from each of them. I don't know how you'd go about this apart from skill drops, but it would be nice to encourage players to actually do all of the dungeons rather than skip them. But also I guess this is only an issue if players are being power trained . If you're with a low level group the whole time generally it seems best to do the dungeons to gear up a bit before advancing but still.

For example: D1 drops the normal first dungeon skills. D2 would drop some other skills, and D3 would drop something seperate as well. The problem is that'd be too many skills so it'd be cool to have something else desirable, but yeah I have no idea how to go about that .