What does The Hive Workshop stand for?

I'm sure you're all well aware of the goings-on of the previous months and of more recent times. Yes, it's been tumultuous, and it's finally coming to a close. However, this is something that's been bugging me for a long time, and I've thought for a while now is likely one of the roots of the problem.

So, to begin, I'm sure you've all heard of wc3campaigns. They're "awesome," they're "elitist," they're "assholes," say what you will. However, consider their policy versus the Hive.

Suppose someone posts a spell in the Spells section of both sites. The spell, quite frankly, sucks. What happens?

• On The Hive, a certain percent of random people will inadvertently give it a 1/5, and another random group will do so with a 5/5. These are doomed to occur. However, consider the more frequent users. They're relatively divided; some of them will tell the person, quite bluntly, that their spell sucks, and here is why. Some will say they have potential but could work on the following things. And so on. That is to say, everyone has their own unique way of approaching things.
• On Warcraft III Campaigns, the response you can expect is pretty clear. Blunt but effective. You'll be told that your spell sucks, here's why, and here's what you can do to improve it. This is a turnoff to a lot of people, but it's predictable.

Now. No one wants this site to be like Warcraft III Campaigns (after all, what would be the point?), so we don't want to follow their method; we need to fill a different niche. However, just what is that niche? The problem is, it's currently unclear. Some people take a very nice approach. Some take a blunt approach. Some are halfway in between, and who knows where the rest are?

So, what are the implications of this? As far as I see it, inconsistency, confusion, and resentment. Why?

• Inconsistency is obvious; each person has their unique approach, and those approaches at The Hive are all over the map.
• Confusion is a direct product of inconsistency; how do you know what to expect?
• Resentment comes from one group disliking another's approach to solving a problem. For example, a lot of people are the type who aren't fans of harsh criticism, and are often annoyed at those who are fans thereof.

So, by the very nature of the problem, there's no clear solution. That is why I'd like to ask you what The Hive Workshop means to you in regards to this issue. Perhaps this may help get us out of limbo, so to speak.

I'm not talking about a change of rules. I'm talking about a change of spirit.

---

On a slight side note, while we are in this grey area at the moment, keep this in mind. If you have a problem with someone else's style, great! You're entitled to your opinion. However, not everyone else wants to be entitled to your opinion. If you have a problem with someone over this, feel free to talk to them in private or where relevant, but don't try to twist threads to suit your venting of your disagreement with them, for whatever reason.

I prefer the blunt yet constructive response. On both ends of the argument, as well.

I don't like comments like "omg this sucks suicide is your only option"
but I don't like comments like "omg ur so awesome wtf best (spell, skin, terrain, model, w/e) ever omg!!!!"

I think we can all agree that no one likes either end in that sense, but out of the actual criticism spectrum, there are a variety of ways you can go about it.

Let me elaborate. Take the example above of the newb with their first spell ever.

Originally Posted by Some Harsh Guy

Sorry, but this spell is old and simple. The coding is rather badly done, the effects are choppy, and the idea is mediocre.

Your code was flawed in that it leaked, [etc...].

When thinking of ideas, try to come up with original materials, rather than copying DotA or another popular game.

[etc]

Originally Posted by Some Nice Guy

Hi, and great try for your first spell! However, I'd have to suggest you work on your ideas some more, as not many people appreciate copying DotA so much.

About your code, while you're learning fast, you could definitely work some more on some areas, such as leaks, [etc...].

[etc]

Some prefer one, some prefer the other, some prefer something in the middle. It's unclear (and unlikely) whether or not one is better than the other in the end.

I like harsh criticism, but only if it's backed by competitive or "elitist" details.

Bad example of harsh critique :P

There has to be a balance on what a proper critique is.

I propose an example critique dialogue, perhaps a version posted in each category, with the story changed to suit the section it is required in.

However, like ~Void~ said.

Blunt critique is fine...but the very second they put something like:

"Go die, kill yourself, this made me cut my own wang off, this made my ovaries pop due to the sheer amount of crap, Naruto could make a better model, BELIEVE IT THIS SUCKS, I drank sea water after looking at this skin, I tried to gas myself in a dutch oven due to your sucky work, I ate a kilogram of nickle to blind myself after looking at your spell, you made me crap blood your code is so shitty"

These comments, are not very welcome.

Comments like "You made me orgasm" are pretty much useless...and while we would prefer that you backed up your praises, its sometimes rather strange to try and describe why exactly you do like a piece of work, if you get my meaning.

The Hive is a very friendly place. It has a friendly atmosphere, and for the most part friendly moderators and administrators who are sometimes willing to bend over backwards to help the common Hive user.

However, I think at times the Hive is too friendly. I think people may be afraid to criticize the higher-ups and in some cases other normal users. It's like they think they'll be smited because if that user, who they just said sucked at drawing, tells a moderator, his/her ass is grass. But there should be nothing wrong if I tell you that your recent model is incredibly sub-par, as long as I tell you why. Too many people are hurt when they're work gets shot down, and I understand that if you work really hard on something and get told that it's...really not as good as you thought it was, it may hurt a bit.

And in some cases, people here may be treated like gods by the rest of the userbase. Criticism isn't "Awesome !", seriously. It's once again as if they even say one thing that may insinuate that the author's work isn't really fucking awesome, they'll die or something.

Now I haven't seen many cases during my membership (which isn't that long, to be honest) where people are mercilessly ripping apart people. Sure it comes up occasionally. It needs to be done a bit more. There needs to be an evening out of the "friendly factor" of the site in order to become more successful as a whole, if that's the site's aim.

Perhaps, HT, I'm somewhere in the middle and I imagine it shows. You're welcome to post some harsh constructive criticism exemplars if you have any. However, I'd appreciate it if you could more so refer to the main topic of the thread.

To Elenai: Indeed, I think we can all agree that the comments that lack constructiveness on either end are a definite no-go, and the people who tend to make those comments aren't really part of the community anyhow.

Anyhow, Saber definitely has the idea of what I meant by this thread.

IMO, there's a good balance between WC3 modding sites. If you want critique on the
level of demanding professional standards for the most polished outcome, you go to
WC3C. If you want acceptance and enthusiasm with a moderate level of standards, you
go to THW. If you want to post low-quality recolours, paint blobs and CnP and get OzMG
AWxZOME!!11! replies, you go to TheHelper :P

Forgive me if I seem harsh here, but that's how it seems.

Originally Posted by A.R.

IMO, there's a good balance between WC3 modding sites. If you want critique on the
level of demanding professional standards for the most polished outcome, you go to
WC3C. If you want acceptance and enthusiasm with a moderate level of standards, you
go to THW. If you want to post low-quality recolours, paint blobs and CnP and get OzMG
AWxZOME!!11! replies, you go to TheHelper :P

Forgive me if I seem harsh here, but that's how it seems.

Touche, couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by AnemicRoyalty

IMO, there's a good balance between WC3 modding sites. If you want critique on the
level of demanding professional standards for the most polished outcome, you go to
WC3C. If you want acceptance and enthusiasm with a moderate level of standards, you
go to THW.

This is actually how I approach critique on both sites. You'll notice that I don't post in any section except site discussion here; there's a reason for that. My critique is always a certain way, and it's always the way that people here don't appreciate, so I keep it reserved to the site that best represents and stands behind such a critiquing style. I have no intention of trying to confuse users here with my opinions that they may or may not appreciate.

My understanding of what the Hive stands for in terms of critique is appreciation before all else. The hive wants to make you feel better about yourself and wants you to enjoy your time modding, however limited such time might be. I appreciate that, as each site needs its own goals, that just means that I feel obliged to withhold my critique and own work from the Hive and reserve it for a place that I know people go to specifically for such work. Each site's users have different needs, so I'll give them what they expect so that -- exactly as Poot suggests -- they won't be irate over what I give them.

I love both sites for vastly different reasons; that's ultimately what it boils down to.

Negative review are certainly welcome as long as it doesn't contain troll/flame bait/malicious note. Unfortunately, most of the user failed to do so and usually wound up in War which resulted in negative reputation or worst, banned.

Here is a example of it.

Originally Posted by Sample of bad negative review

Bullshit, this map is simply awful. Your dickhead failed to think ? Which fucker would bother to play your childish & yet stupid map with over 4mb at battlenet ? Battlenet only enable user to host map with less than 4 mb, you asshole.

Get your fucking brain straight, you faggot. The map spawn a hell of monster and get the wc3 lag. What kind of fucktard you are for setting the trigger spawn 10 monster every 2 seconds ?

GOSH DON'T DOWNLOAD THIS LAME MAP.

1/5 for being a moron

Originally Posted by Sample of good negative review

This map quality are poor. It exceed the files sizes limit by 1mb which tally up to 5mb. For your information, battlenet only support map with the files size below 4mb.

Apart from that, the game certainly doesn't user friendly as it spawn a large amount of creep at short duration, rendering it to be lagging after a period of time. The GUI are poorly develop at the meantime, there is plenty of leak that you did not fix with custom scrip. It could caused the entire game to be lagging if the trigger execute frequently.

I am sorry, but the quality are currently unacceptable, even for the hiveworkshop standard.

1/5

Unfortunately, how many user could resist from writing a negative review in proper way without spark a drama or what we called "drama"

To me, Hive Workshop is preschool finger painting with lying, yet encouraging, teachers.

Well, I try to be generally encouraging in my reviews even if the maps sucks. Point out the flaws, and do so bluntly, but also point out what is good and how they should elaborate on that. Wc3C works, in some way, because of sites like THW and T-H. People who would normally flock to Wc3C come here instead, improving the quality of the member base there. People who are interested often come here to get a base in wc3 modding, and learn more skills. Others come here and make flame reviews, or "zomg!!1 meak moar plz, kkthzbai!".

Much talent has graduated from THW, and moved on. Others just as talented have stayed behind.

But, anyway back on topic. Blunt reviews, but with encouragment and point out all aspects of the game. The one exception is Naruto Spellpacks. There, F-L-A-M-E! (Kidding . . . well kinda)

Originally Posted by PurplePoot

I think we can all agree that no one likes either end in that sense, but out of the actual criticism spectrum, there are a variety of ways you can go about it.

Let me elaborate. Take the example above of the newb with their first spell ever.





Some prefer one, some prefer the other, some prefer something in the middle. It's unclear (and unlikely) whether or not one is better than the other in the end.

It's better in the middle of those two. Those are the two extremes.