Do you like the new site changes?

Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk

If they would abuse power like you suggest, they should be removed as moderators in the first place. This goes along with the need for the staff to be purged in order to come full circle in a total staff reconstruction.

Some users who would make good resource mods I would NEVER want to see with powers to infract and ban. Being able to neg-rep is one thing, and being a resource moderator got you used to that. Now, if somebody is promoted, they are overwhelmed with all this power and don't know what to do with it. Septimus, for example, gave someone 9 permanent infraction points to someone who spammed. Once we told him more about infractions, he more understood how they are to be used. The old ranks were good for that. Letting someone get more power in each stage of promotion. Now, there's only three stages, so the learning curve is much steeper.

The forum mods and resource mods were virtually identical in purpose before anyways.

Wrong. We only had the power to reject, approve, etc resources. We could not delete resources, delete posts, or edit posts. Forum mods CAN delete threads and edit/delete posts. That is a massive difference right there.

the staff needs to be purged and redone entirely.

What, so you can be admin? Oh please. You've done enough damage already.

Some people are terrible representatives of the site and the staff, but they do moderate resources pretty well. That is why the mini-mod rank still exists, because it allows people to help in the resource moderation without having the power to totally screw things up.

We need more map moderators, not more moderators with the power to ban and such.

exactly the opposite of what you wanted in the first place.

Fixed.

Regardless, though, consider that a GUI question may have a JASS answer, or that a JASS question might result in an answer that makes more sense to the user in GUI!

Wrong. GUI questions get GUI answers (except for maybe some custom script) and if people ask JASS questions, they're going to slam their head on the wall if people give them responses in GUI.

The very distinction between a trigger question in GUI and a trigger question in JASS is blurred in the first place

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME.

Now by putting them together, suddenly you've created a world where GUI and JASS are not so different; Were they ever?

Yes, they have always been very different. Ask anyone who lurks in the systems/spells section. OH WAIT, YOU GOT THAT REMOVED. MY BAD.

this cannot happen if the users do not support the admins. Please, for the site's sake, support them.

You mean admins + global mods? Because in your eyes, they're exactly the same.

Originally Posted by Pyritie

Some users who would make good resource mods I would NEVER want to see with powers to infract and ban.

If you would entrust them to review resources but not do things a mod should be capable of handling, that is why the mini-mod rank still exists. I've discussed this at length with Ralle and he was the one that explained that to me. If you have any specific names, send them to Ralle and he will likely take care of it after discussion with the rest of the staff.

Originally Posted by Pyritie

Wrong. We only had the power to reject, approve, etc resources. We could not delete resources, delete posts, or edit posts. Forum mods CAN delete threads and edit/delete posts. That is a massive difference right there.

Only in the areas they moderate, which I elaborated on in detail in my last post. If it isn't that way now, it should be and I will likely suggest to Ralle that it become that way.

Originally Posted by Pyritie

What, so you can be admin? Oh please. You've done enough damage already.

I have been offered more than a half-dozen times by your administration to join the Hive's staff and help out tremendously. Do you know how those offers ended? No, all you know is that I apparently declined because of how I'm not a moderator right now. I declined politely citing that I would rather help from the shadows than be thrust into some environment I am not comfortable in and have things expected of me. Regardless of the fact that my loyalties lie elsewhere, I am here typing these things because I want to help and see the Hive blossom into something great.

If by some misguided illusion, though, you think that my suggestions to help improve the site are being made to secure me a spot in the administration, you only exemplify the ignorance and naivety that people have come to expect from the hive. Your attitude and your ignorant and arrogant comments are the very reason why suggestions such as mine are being taken seriously by the administration. They want to improve the site, whereas you apparently want to shunt all potential improvements and keep it the same way it's always been forever. That's your opinion and no one can take it away from you, but realize that the site needs to improve one way or the other; if you won't support me, at least support the admins' right to make their own decisions in the matter and trust their judgment as you've come to do in the past. I am only here to help, I want no staff position, I want no title, I want no rep, nothing at all.

I'd respond to the rest of your points, but your post degraded to random cursing and flaming so I'd prefer not to.
Thank you for the response. :)

the staff needs to be purged and redone entirely.

Have to say I agree with that... some mods arent qualified, others arent active, etc.

- Forums being moved around/merged

I preferred when the off-topic section was lower, so I could browse all gaming categories, + computer tech at the same time, although this is a personal preference, and I'm sure I'll adjust in time.

- Staff ranks (Resource mods have same powers as forum mods, almost impossible to distinguish between resource, forum, global mod, or admin)

I basically know the rank of every moderator, so It has no real impact to me in that sense, but the ranking seems to be rounded know, with each mod being treated equally. However, a lot of mods don't deserve to be treated as fairly as others.

- Loss of colored names (all bolded)

I'd probably be pretty pissed off if I had one, because I think they looked awesome, but I don't, so my vote is null. I know this doesn't really matter, but a lot of mods avatars went with the colour

- Staff titles are now link-less and image-less (Like how I am just "Model Moderator", for example)

I'm not even fucking going to bother, as the last three of the changes listed are linked so much it's pointless.

Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk

If you would entrust them to review resources but not do things a mod should be capable of handling, that is why the mini-mod rank still exists. I've discussed this at length with Ralle and he was the one that explained that to me. If you have any specific names, send them to Ralle and he will likely take care of it after discussion with the rest of the staff.

Mini-Mods can't do all that much. They can give a thumbs upon a resource, and change tag and categories. They cannot approve a resource. Therefore we need Map Moderators to approve them. Now what the other members are saying is that they don't want some to have much power, but trust them with moderating maps. Mini-Mods are even lower. They aren't trusted with any power really. Some users can be trusted with taking care of resources, but not giving out punishment. Having the power to punish another user is usually where problems arise.

Now if you were to change Mini-Mods so that they could approve, and had Resource Moderators that oversaw their given area, that would make more sense from your point of view. So a Map Moderator would have full power in their area, and the Mini-Mods would just do what the Map Moderators do now without the powers to punish.

I have been offered more than a half-dozen times by your administration to join the Hive's staff and help out tremendously. Do you know how those offers ended? No, all you know is that I apparently declined because of how I'm not a moderator right now. I declined politely citing that I would rather help from the shadows than be thrust into some environment I am not comfortable in and have things expected of me. Regardless of the fact that my loyalties lie elsewhere, I am here typing these things because I want to help and see the Hive blossom into something great.

If by some misguided illusion, though, you think that my suggestions to help improve the site are being made to secure me a spot in the administration, you only exemplify the ignorance and naivety that people have come to expect from the hive. Your attitude and your ignorant and arrogant comments are the very reason why suggestions such as mine are being taken seriously by the administration. They want to improve the site, whereas you apparently want to shunt all potential improvements and keep it the same way it's always been forever. That's your opinion and no one can take it away from you, but realize that the site needs to improve one way or the other; if you won't support me, at least support the admins' right to make their own decisions in the matter and trust their judgment as you've come to do in the past. I am only here to help, I want no staff position, I want no title, I want no rep, nothing at all.

Well that came off rather arrogantly. To me, that came across as, "I'm better than all of you, and my ideas will improve your site, even though I may not be very active at all." Now I'm not saying you know nothing about the site, or that you indeed think you are better, but I wouldn't come to another site and tell the users (especially highly regarded members) that their site isn't very good, and that you are going to make it better, but not post or be involved in any way. Instead of flaming and telling staff and users off, how about trying to work with them? It seems to me, you think your ideas are the only good ones, and that because the admin apparently loves you, we have no say, and you re going to run this show.

I'd respond to the rest of your points, but your post degraded to random cursing and flaming so I'd prefer not to.
Thank you for the response. :)

Get off your high horse.

Originally Posted by Gilles

Now what the other members are saying is that they don't want some to have much power, but trust them with moderating maps.

So give them moderating power in only the resource areas. I do not see what merging the nomenclature of Resource Mods together with Forum Mods has anything to do with where the specific user can moderate.

Originally Posted by Gilles

Well that came off rather arrogantly. To me, that came across as, "I'm better than all of you, and my ideas will improve your site, even though I may not be very active at all." Now I'm not saying you know nothing about the site, or that you indeed think you are better, but I wouldn't come to another site and tell the users (especially highly regarded members) that their site isn't very good, and that you are going to make it better, but not post or be involved in any way. Instead of flaming and telling staff and users off, how about trying to work with them? It seems to me, you think your ideas are the only good ones, and that because the admin apparently loves you, we have no say, and you re going to run this show.

You obviously don't know me very well (As I had imagined would be the case for a lot of people here), so I can't really expect it to come off any differently. The reality is that I just don't care for sugarcoating things, if you asked me to point out the flaws in anything on this or any other site (Including ones I do frequent) they would appear in the same fashion. It is not a subjective analysis I'm performing, I'm trying to keep it as objective as possible without infringing in an area that I don't belong.

My ideas aren't the only good ones, and as a matter of fact these changes are only half my suggestions in the first place. I did not recommend to Ralle to remove the images and links, he did that on his own. I did not recommend to Ralle to remove the staff colors, he did that on his own. Maybe you think I've been subverting everyone else here, but I've actually been having these "suggestion" discussions with Ralle in a rather public fashion over on THW chat. I've chatted with Brad, Hindy, Werewulf, Hakeem, Ghan, HT, Wyrmy, Ralle, Archebald (Archian), and Poot about it at some time in the past. So in reality, this is a cumulation of opinions that I'm presenting to you here, not one man's word against the world's.

Please, understand that I'm not on some 'high horse.' Pyritie threatened to ban me in the chat over my suggestions, claiming that I'm destroying the site. That's the attitude that has to go away -- Even if you don't know who I am or don't care, understand that I am not forcing anyone's hand here. If your admins didn't agree with me, it would have never gotten this far in the first place, that they did is their decision, one I subjectively think will make the site a better place.

If you don't agree with that analysis, then that's your opinion. You are entitled to it, as is anyone else, but ultimately it is the admins' opinions that get things done. We must place our faith in their decisions and trust that they've been doing this for a long time and know what they are doing.

My main problem is that someone who would previously approve or ignore a map is now in charge of running a Map Development forum.

I really don't like that situation at all.

The truth is that if you can't trust the user to do that, I don't see why you'd want him representing the site at all in the first place. Besides, every moderator has different permissions anyways -- I see no reason why that user has to change from just approving/ignoring maps to being a forum moderator in the first place, all that's changed structurally is that a "Resource Moderator" and a "Forum Moderator" both are now called a "Moderator." Everything else besides that is probably just a promotion gone awry.

Originally Posted by brad.dude03

My main problem is that someone who would previously approve or ignore a map is now in charge of running a Map Development forum.

I really don't like that situation at all.

Most map moderators moderate what they did before. They haven't suddenly been added to the whole wc3 modding forum.

No man, these guys are focusing on maps only which makes them more effective.

Well that works fine for me then.

Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk

So give them moderating power in only the resource areas. I do not see what merging the nomenclature of Resource Mods together with Forum Mods has anything to do with where the specific user can moderate.

I don't quite understand you, but since I have nothing against anything going on with the Moderating positions and privileges, I'll leave that alone.

You obviously don't know me very well (As I had imagined would be the case for a lot of people here), so I can't really expect it to come off any differently. The reality is that I just don't care for sugarcoating things, if you asked me to point out the flaws in anything on this or any other site (Including ones I do frequent) they would appear in the same fashion. It is not a subjective analysis I'm performing, I'm trying to keep it as objective as possible without infringing in an area that I don't belong.

My ideas aren't the only good ones, and as a matter of fact these changes are only half my suggestions in the first place. I did not recommend to Ralle to remove the images and links, he did that on his own. I did not recommend to Ralle to remove the staff colors, he did that on his own. Maybe you think I've been subverting everyone else here, but I've actually been having these "suggestion" discussions with Ralle in a rather public fashion over on THW chat. I've chatted with Brad, Hindy, Werewulf, Hakeem, Ghan, HT, Wyrmy, Ralle, Archebald (Archian), and Poot about it at some time in the past. So in reality, this is a cumulation of opinions that I'm presenting to you here, not one man's word against the world's.

Please, understand that I'm not on some 'high horse.' Pyritie threatened to ban me in the chat over my suggestions, claiming that I'm destroying the site. That's the attitude that has to go away -- Even if you don't know who I am or don't care, understand that I am not forcing anyone's hand here. If your admins didn't agree with me, it would have never gotten this far in the first place, that they did is their decision, one I subjectively think will make the site a better place.

No I don't know you, and I had no idea all that had taken place. I was merely stating how your post came across to me. It sounded more like you thought, or were, pushing things. If you indeed are trying to help, and taking into consideration our opinions, I'm all for it. Thanks for clearing that up.

If you don't agree with that analysis, then that's your opinion. You are entitled to it, as is anyone else, but ultimately it is the admins' opinions that get things done. We must place our faith in their decisions and trust that they've been doing this for a long time and know what they are doing.

This post overall sounds much better (than your previous). I don't really have anything against your opinions, or any changes, just your previous posts.

Pyritie, I think you are over reacting. Forgive me when I say this, but I don't think typing in caps-lock will prove your point any better. Just makes you look angry for a not small purpose. So calm down and take it easy. Rising_Dusk is entitled to his opinion as everyone else is - as he had also said so in his post too - and what he is trying to do is convince us all that things are wrong and is trying to pursuade us to make them right. Though in a lot of cases, he is right, perhaps he's not entirely correct about the type of power we should give moderators. This part, semi-agree with Pyritie. Rising_Dusk is implying we give moderators whom Ralle thinks can do the job well enough the power to ban, kick, and all that other stuff a great moderator can and would do... well, has Ralle not chosen people whom he believes is right for their position? If not, why the hell are they moderators? Thus makings that portion of the post a little confusing. And if Ralle isn't the one in charge of that - which is unlikely since he pays for the site/forum - who would be in charge of choosing the right people for the job? Users? Moderators? It's one big circle of jack-offs (no offense) who would rather vote for theirself or a friend. Honestly, corruption has reached the Hive and it is noticable, even by those who are not moderators or administrators such as Rising_Dusk himself.

However... I do agree that NEARLY the entire team of moderators (mini-mods, admins, global mods, etc.) should be purged and rethought by the king of the Hive, Mr. Ralle himself. Why? Well apparently the people - users - are very unhappy with moderators of choice and how they work and so, as the moderators are meant to clean the forum and keep it USER-FRIENDLY, this is crucial. People who I think deserve the right to stay - off the top of my head - are Bob27, Wolverabid, MasterHaosis, Brad.Dude03, and General_Frank. Not a very large list, but I've had only two hours of sleep last night so its hard to process the names of everyone who I personally think is fit for the job. I'd mention the people I am not comfortable with being moderators, but that'd just instantly lead up to flame war which I really cannot be bothered with, so I'll keep quiet as talking about that would do me no good.

Rising_Dusk seems to know what he is talking about. He wants to turn this into Wc3Campaings 2 - not literally... - by the way everything is ran, and that much I disagree with. Frankly, this is a discussion which should be spoken in an instant messanger conversation; not even in Hive Chat. At that, I rest my ranting case.

If you disagree with me to, flame me. Its just the type of behavior we are to expect now as Rising_Dusk, once again, mentioned and is somewhat true. He posts an opinion, Hive moderators put him down. Have we no civility nor decency around this forum anymore? We always talk about how great and helpful we are, then when the time comes - such as this - we totally blow it and contradict our claims. Meh... I'm a little sick of Hive Workshop to be totally honest and very tired, so I'll just shut the hell up right here.

~Craka_J

All the other things I am neutral towards, so I did not vote for or against them.

I want the colors back.

Originally Posted by Rising_Dusk

Anyone that makes up complaints to the color being removed is just bitter because they feel like they aren't as cool anymore. Get over yourselves, this is a website that has to be run in an organized fashion, not a God damned popularity contest.

You are wrong. The results show that many regular users voted to have the colors back. Colors is, at press time, simultaneously, the least liked, and most disliked, change.

I liked the colors, they let me know ranks easily, and they looked cool. The admins don't look the same not gray, the global moderators don't looks the same not blueish, and the moderators don't look the same not orange. Of course we could just throw out all the themes and use plain text instead. It'd free up bandwidth too. Hey, why not just do that?

I might not be here today if this site was black and white all over.

---

Now, I think a site should be set up like this:

• Owner: *
• Admin: Moderates users and forums.
• Global Moderator: Moderates all the forums
• Hive necessary:
  • Moderator: Moderates some subset of forums that have special needs/rules.
  • Resource Moderator: Moderates resources, not forums or users.

Moderators should not have access to IP addresses, or the ability to give infractions, and ban a user, this is what admins are trusted to do.

Recently there was a user banned by a mod at the "request" of a user. I do not see that the moderator should be demoted, but that the ability to ban should be revoked from all forum moderators. Banning is something to be trusted to an admin.

If I am to understand the infraction system, moderators can give infractions, of any point value, at any time, and 10 infraction points results in a ban. This gives moderators the ability to ban. Sure it was TheDivineBoss, but that was just today. Who will it be tomorrow? In my opinion, if you want a user banned and the current admins are not fulfilling their duties adequately, then you need to find someone who can be trusted to be an admin.

I don't know if this is a good idea, but banning should be disabled for moderators. They should contact the global moderators since they have more expirience (hopefully) and as result, more competence