Communication

*OP note: I accidentally hit "Submit Thread" as opposed to "Preview Post", which is what started OP note. This is not finished until this particular sentence of the OP note is striked out (strike). I've got a lot of stuff on the first three, and a little on IRC/IM. Feel free to add something to the list. Also, please only vote on at most two things.*

Slight preface, feel free to click here to skip straight to the question, or if you don't feel like even seeing the preface. My opinion on the subject is here.

As the first to start a debate thread in Medivh's tower, please let me say: wow, I haven't even started the actual content of this post and I'm already about to wet myself for fear of this not being serious enough. I despise setting important precedents. Somebody else should set them, but if everybody had that kind of mentality then nothing would ever get done. Regardless, here is what I would like to hear about:

Which form of communication is best for debate?
Now, I mean honest debate. I don't mean just "Where you at?", "I'm here, where are you? What do you mean I'm not here? You're the one who's not here!", "nub's going for the sword, somebody snipe him!", or "h4y guyz 1 c4n t0t411y sp4m m0r3 th4n j00z!", or anything that comes close to everyday conversation. I mean actual debates, such as the ones meant to be indigenous to Medivh's tower.

Obviously, txting is out of the question, 446665553#66666 (or 4653#66, both of which may end up as hold on) would be too much work for hardly any debate. Currently, I can think of these as acceptable mediums:

• Forums, such as our belovéd Hive.
• Physical proximity (meeting in real life).
• Phones (self-explanatory), possibly with party lines/conference calls or Audio Chat (IE: with MSN, and/or any other IM providers that offer such services).
• IRC programs/IM programs (Internet Relay Chat/Instant Messenger); the in-between of our wonderful Hive, and real life, occurring in real-time but in text.
• Audio/video chat. IE: with MSN, and/or any other IM providers that offer such services.

Currently, these are the Pros and Cons identified for each:

• Forum Pros:
  • Plenty of time to think about and fully develop statements. (See this)
  • Allows for timezone differences easily.
  • Links to source material. [1337attack]The intarwebz are in need of moar sauce links[/1337attack]*.
  • Depending on the forum, moderator actions are swift, consequential, and definitely something to be afraid of.
  • It's utterly impossible for anybody to interrupt you. Reply in their entirety before you reply in yours, but no interruptions.
  • Tension could possibly be relieved with random off-site image linking.
  • Referencing previously stated material is easy.
  • intarwebz! ur grammerz ar teh suck! (People are capable of understanding such nonsense as this, and translating it for you. The same applies for languages other than 1337.)
• Forum Cons:
  • It's terribly easy to get your post in seconds after someone else's, possibly disrupting debate continuity.
  • Although allowing more time for developing posts, large timezone differences can easily interrupt debate continuity.
  • As it is online, you are not talking to people, you are talking to names. IE: Any post directed at me is not directed at my personal self, but at Teh_Ephy. The actual me resides behind the impervious wall that is your computer monitor.
  • Unless registration is picky, such as here in Medivh's Tower, there will always be dumb n00bs to interrupt.
  • Depending on the forum, moderator actions are infrequent, inconsequential, and nothing to worry about.
  • Fallacies and incorrect information may remain uncorrected, or uncontested in their truth, for a significant amount of time.
  • Attention can be diverted from the topic with random off-site image linking, often times to off-topic, time-costly, useless, nothing. Sometimes, the link may be to the "Power Five", the five most-linked-to disgusting/pornographic photos on the internet. One of them is the infamous "Tubgirl", if you don't know you really don't want to find out. If you really need to burn your eyes out that badly, search around on Encyclopedia Dramatica's "Sauce" page, there's a search function.
  • Your idiocy remains for all to see (or does it? Yes, it does).
  • It's the internet, spelling isn't always up to any sort of standard.
  • Because it's the internet, things have a certain amount of anonymity. Again, comments directed at me hit my "Teh_Ephy" shield, and don't get any closer to me than my monitor.

    Originally Posted by low-life

    PS: Please do not misunderstand us. We're not flaming him beacuse of his language. No, no. We're just flaming. Just because we can, just because of anonymity. And you, with your puny "more than just ppl from the US visit this site ignoramus" can't stop us.

    NOTE: There's a lot of flaming going on if you follow the redirect-arrow to the post.
  • Wonderful idiocy such as this. If you follow the link, please not the time between the first three posts. If you do happen to read the entire 7 posts, the difference between rotation and revolution is actually where the axis around which the movement is occurring.
• In Person Pros:
  • You're in person, body language and emphasis can be used to make a point; no pesky [b]bold tags[/b], [u]underline tags[/u], or [i]italics tags[/i] to type.
  • If you're getting fed up with the idiot, interrupt him/her.
  • Eye contact. Yes it's a part of body language, but it is also so much more.
  • People can be physically removed from the discussion
  • You can use distance as an excuse.
• In Person Cons:
  • If the idiot is getting fed up with you, s/he could easily interrupt before you've validated your point.
  • People have an annoying tendency to do something known as "ignoring reality". Oftentimes in the middle of reality. The same can also apply to theoretical possibilities; in theory if you can do X and Y, and you can do X and Y together, then in theory you can do them together. No, it doesn't matter how massively implausible it is, it's a theory, they do not care about reality.
  • People tend to do both of the previous two in conjunction with each other, forming a potent irritant.
  • People tend to ignore debate moderators if there is no threat of removal imminent.
    
  • If someone says something that angers or otherwise brings out an immediate emotional response in you, you're likely to respond as soon as you can, and your response is likely to be 'tainted' by your emotions. On forums, however, by the time you've finished writing and proofreading your post you've cooled down enough to realise you really don't want to say what you were going to say. Hopefully.—Courtesy of Shados, and has very much to do with the 1st pro for Forums. Thanks for the excellent elaboration.
  • S/he can use distance as an excuse.
• Phone Pros:
  • You're talking with the person, you can hear his/her voice; tone and emphasis can be conveyed without pesky tags.
  • Who doesn't have a cell phone? Answer: Lots of people actually, but most of them don't need cell phones either.
  • Party line/conference call. 'Nuff said.
  • You don't need to be looking at your phone to talk.
  • Multiple lines, and you can put others on hold.
• Phone Cons::
  • People (women mostly, men if they try) can tell the emotion behind what you're saying (is that maybe a good thing? Is it just the backlash of the first point instead of the counter to it?).
  • You might need to contact someone who doesn't have a cell phone. Most of that contact is likely to be for bragging, but still.
  • You can hear when the other person is talking to someone else, which is potentially distracting to both parties.
  • You can be talking on the phone and... in the lavatory flushing the toilet. True disgusting story.
  • Multiple lines, s/he might put you on hold!
• IRC/IM Pros:
  • Linking to source material.
  • You can ignore people in real time!
  • You can talk to people across the world (applies to forums, listed as "Allows for timezone differences easily")
  • Convenient. You're already on your computer for p... Right, so you're on your computer anyways, IRC/IM programs don't take up too much monitor space.
  • MORE TO COME, I HAS A HEADACHE *Uh, I'm actually not sure. Wow, right now IRC/IM totally sucks.
• IRC/IM Cons:
  • COMING SOON, I HAS A HEADACHE
• Audio/Video Pros:
  • COMING SOON, I HAS A HEADACHE
• Audio/Video Cons:
  • COMING SOON, I HAS A HEADACHE

Sauce is the term 4chan users have grown accustomed to use instead of the word “source”. It stems originally from a wordfilter on /b/, but gained popularity because "sauce" is more easily typed with one hand than is “source”. [From Ephy: If you don't know why, don't ask.]

“Sauce plz” is typically yelled out in ALL CAPS by leechers, usually with a pleading tone and with one or more “ZOMG”s. The expression requests anything related to the source of the previously posted pictures be it a torrent, a website, a Rapidshare link, or the name of the “artist”.

Sauce whining is necessary due to the fact that 4chan addicts are completely incapable of creating original content. The pictures are seldom created by the OP [From Ephy: Original Poster], unless of course they’re a grotesque mixture of hebephrenic MS Paint scrawling with Photoshop copypastery.

Source for the adaptation on meaning/origin of sauce. No NSFW images directly behind the link, but the language is rather vulgar. I don't recommend that anyone follow any of the other links on that page, if you choose to visit the link.

So while you're all waiting for me to update this, my personal preference is forums. No interruptions while you're explaining, no arguing "I never said that" "Yes you did ass-fuck", a simple [quote=Teh_Ephy;270864]If you're getting fed up with the idiot, interrupt him/her.[/quote] to wave a nagging finger, random off-site image linking (admittedly, this can be a bad thing at times), source linking, and handy/annoying [IMG] tags. All of these make for a clear debate, with source material able to be reviewed by persons other than yourself, and even helpful diagrams and useless stress-relievers. All that, and posts can be filled with fun easter eggs, for those who could use a break from the debate; the random off-site image linking in this post has a different random image behind every link. Yes, I abused the [url] tag a little, but as they are [url]s, you can choose not to click them, as opposed to me shoving them in your face like if this was taking place in person.

I have another 'In Person' con:

• If someone says something that angers or otherwise brings out an immediate emotional response in you, you're likely to respond as soon as you can, and your response is likely to be 'tainted' by your emotions. On forums, however, by the time you've finished writing and proofreading your post you've cooled down enough to realise you really don't want to say what you were going to say. Hopefully.

-*meow*

With forums you get more time to develop and research a debate. I also think its easier to admit defeat on forums than in person, or any of the otherways. I usually try to avoid any debate which i cannot win by using fact or evidence, because I believe that if you don't have evidence you don't have an argument. Philosophical debates are basically a battle of opinoin, if theres no proof no-one can really win in a debate. Debates shouldn't always be about winning however, always wanting to win is more of an awkward argument than a debate. Debates should be more about expressing your feelings on a subject, backed by evidence. Forums give a means to do this because you will have the resources to do it. Its difficult to have a debate on the phone because it often leads to a shouting match or name calling or something equally pointless. If you are a member of a proper debate club you can prepare your presentation, but I personally am not one for debating; I prefer an "intellectual discussion".

btw, i really liked some of those pictures you linked to, they were funny and well timed too :P

I totally debate/argue/open my mouth/discuss/talk/type to win . I do however, provide evidence, and link to it when possible. I absolutely voice my opinion (occasionally to the point of getting myself in trouble), and enjoy the challenge of backing it up when someone contests its merit. I'll admit that enjoying the challenge of backing it up is most likely a bad thing, but I can also admit when I'm wrong.

Thanks about the pictures, I thoroughly enjoyed first one as something to ease up tension in a thread. Everybody has permission to use it to break up the tension in any thread that happens to be around, even against me.

[url="http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e172/8484/Posters/innuendo.jpg"]Tension breaker![/url]

If you want a very not-okay example of people voicing their opinions, take a look at the "Because it's the internet..." quote.

Originally Posted by GST_Nemisis

Philosophical debates are basically a battle of opinoin, if theres no proof no-one can really win in a debate.P

I disagree (Heh), they're more battles of logic.

-*meow*

I prefer in person. Often enough I cannot get across the point which i'm trying to convey to most people on the internet, and in person I can talk face to face, and provide logical explanation and reasoning. Forums do allow people to link to other content and resources that wouldn't (most likely) be readily available at the time of a real life debate, but 99% of the time, when i'm arguing in real life I don't need that crap, i'll make people see things my way.

What about stuff like email or myspace? Would those go under forums?

Also, audio chat is basically the same as a telephone, except using a computer and a seperate microphone.

Personally, I like forums because you don't have to worry about if the person's online or not, time zones don't get in the way, and you can always edit your statement afterwards. None of the others let you do that. When you press "send" on an IM program, the message is gone, and your idiocy will be displayed for everyone to see. But on forums, you can always edit your post if you need to correct yourself, and you can almost always do it before someone else sees the original.

Originally Posted by Pyritie

What about stuff like email or myspace? Would those go under forums?

I suppose MySpace would, but I'm not sure about E-Mail.

Originally Posted by Pyritie

Also, audio chat is basically the same as a telephone, except using a computer and a seperate microphone.

This has been taken into account. The separate method is Audio/Video Chat, which is generally not so good; eye contact is very difficult, because of the difference of location between the other persons' image and the perspective the other persons are seeing you from. Aside from that, I suppose it basically has all the pros and cons of In Person, minus "distance".

I'd have to say I'm straddling between in person and in forums. To be in person, you can really get the person's voice, and it will be easier to know where they are going with their talk, but if it is of people with different age groups and such, it's hard to take a 13 year old seriously if you are, say, 31. With forums, you don't get the voice that allows for more fluent debate. You get only text, however, with text, you can only see what others say, removing the judgmental part of debate.