• 🏆 Texturing Contest #33 is OPEN! Contestants must re-texture a SD unit model found in-game (Warcraft 3 Classic), recreating the unit into a peaceful NPC version. 🔗Click here to enter!
  • It's time for the first HD Modeling Contest of 2024. Join the theme discussion for Hive's HD Modeling Contest #6! Click here to post your idea!

Hero Contest #7 - Results

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492
160036-albums4747-picture59500.png

hero.png
contest.png
number.png
7.png

results.png



Contest Theme: Faction/Altar
Contest Style: Solo ~ In-Game Resources

And what a Contest it was. This was an interesting challenge with a great Theme (if I do say so myself :p), lots of good entries, and some excellent competition! But in the end, only one can be the winner... And that's what we're all here to see.

On to the Results!


[[Please refer to the attached "Voting Calculations" Excel spreadsheet]]
(Image for those without Microsoft Excel (you can always open an account via SkyDrive & get free Web-Office apps, by the way)
Final Score - Pic.png

We had an interesting new voting method for this Contest known as 'Modified Borda Count' (more can be read about it in the Contest's Poll thread). Users basically tried as many entries as they could & ranked them preferentially, best to worst. The (weighted) summation of the votes was what gave the final score.

Unfortunately, not many (total of 4) people took advantage of this new method; hopefully future trials will encourage the shy ones to try it out. : )

One thing of note; early on it was discussed that "voting for oneself" was overly self-aggrandizing & thus undesirable. However, after some more discussions, it was made known that this had the effect of discouraging votes; particularly votes from the entrants themselves (in a nutshell: leaving oneself out on a vote leaves oneself with 0 points, and if they voted for everyone else (as 3 of the voters did), that puts them 12 behind the highest on their list). This was seen in previous Contests (on another site) that used preferential voting; the way to fix this issue is to automatically put all the entries of entrants who voted the 'top' of their list (i.e. Cokemonkey11, Cosmicat, and Kyrbi0 gave 13 points to their entry; Dalvengyr gave 4), so as to properly maintain the incentive for this & future Contests.


//I greatly apologize, but apparently I forgot to save the text-versions (& thus explanations) of two of the Judges (Kam & Bannar). I wrote down the #'s immediately into the Voting Calculations sheet (which is why we have the Results at all), but you'll just have to trust me until I get another copy of them. Sorry again.//
All fixed!

[[Please refer to the attached "Voting Calculations" Excel spreadsheet]]
(Image for those without Microsoft Excel (you can always open an account via SkyDrive & get free Web-Office apps, by the way)
Final Score - Pic.png

===
===KAM
===



1st
Kyrbi0 51

2nd
Dalvengyr 48

3rd
Mythic 46

4th
Cosmicat & Wa666r43

5th
Cokemonkey1142

6th
DED1 41

7th
Footman16 40

8th
angkysaputra 39

9th
Rufus 37

10th
Direfury 33

11th
A Void 11


Theme: Clearly a Night Elf caster. The ability cohesion here is good particularly between Preservation and Fury of Nature. Dreamscape is a pleasure to use.
10/10

Role: All of these abilities have the chance to interact with each other in different useful ways. Dreamscape extends the idea of a ranged caster in a literal sense.
10/10

Balance: Dreamscape could have been a real nightmare but you've created a good balance by forcing the Archdruid to remain stationary. I'm not sure the duration on Spore Cloud is working correctly, it lasts more than 20 seconds at level 3. I also don't think Toadstools should be permanenet. Enemy players need to be able to counter them. Right now all one can do is avoid them and they don't seem to have a timed life.
8/10

Creativity: Preservation is fairly simple but is integrated well into the spell set. Fury of nature I have seen in similar forms but never exactly like this. I would not have guessed Dreamscape was based on Storm, Earth, and Fire. Sporer Cloud, depsite the issues, is a unique spell. The threat of a unit producing a toadstool forces a player to make that unit retreat thus removing a unit from combat.
9/10

Coding: Extremely simple for what your spells do. This is wonderful for map makers as any time I can avoid using code heavy abilities that may conflict I do.
10/10

Awesomeness:
4/5

Total:
51

Additional:
-Fury of Nature, Preservation, and Spore Cloud should share the same button locations on the Astral projection.
-The Mortal Coil has two dummy abilities based on Unholy item and Clockwerk that should be in a disabled spellbook.
-It would be nice if when Dreamscape is cast it moved unit selection to the Astral Projection.
-Preservation should have an area indicator instead of a target point.


Theme: Fits right into TFT lore and general Undead characteristics.
9/10

Role: Clearly a disruptor. An enemy player would need to be careful to not bunch units or strong them along in a line. Frost Phase in particular can apply as an aid to retreat or as an attack opener.
9/10

Balance: Frost Phase and Frozen Fate have nice cohesion. I was able to use Frozen Fate in a group of enemy units and then Forzen Phase out leaving slowed attackers to mutants. Cold Addict seems underpowered. AT level 3 the stun on Frost Phase seems too long.
9/10

Creativity: Frost Phase and Frostwave are nicely done. Frozen Fate is an obvious take on Resurrection without much change. Cold Addict just did not feel useful.
8/10

Coding: You used some systems I am more familiar with and it looks good. After dealing with spells and their requirements for years I can tell you that 7 required systems can create issues especially for melee map makers in terms of compatibility. The idea of having the four spells as one library is interesting but presents an issue again if I only want one of them, or want to modify one spell.
9/10

Awesomeness:
4/5

Total:
48


Theme: Fits the race. This is a heavy nuke hero for sure. Malediction is nice but I'm not sure it it fits with the other three well. Something more fitting would be an aura that reduces magic resistance of units damaged by the Dark Sorcerer.
9/10

Role: I would classify this as an assault caster. It does well in that sense but again I would like to see his aura be more in line with a heavy damage assault caster.
9/10

Balance: Tornado of Souls could do something more than area damage. Hand of Corruption needs a different spell effect, it's not entirely clear to the enemy player why their units just died because the effect is slow to spawn but the damage is done instantly.

9/10

Creativity: Tornado of Souls is underwhelming. The best way I have to think of ultimates is that they should seem too good as a standard three level spell. Tornado of Souls seems more like a standard ability besides the high damage. His standard three abilities are nothing new.
6/10

Coding: I don't see any issues.
10/10

Awesomeness:
3/5

Total:
46


Theme: There is a clear link to Arcane magics present in vanilla Human units.
9/10

Role: My take is that the Artificer is a disruptive magic unit but that is not clear. Energize is throwing off the ability cohesion.
7/10

Balance: Charged Bolt rewards choosing the best target rather than simply the weakest. Energize is interesting but I wonder why it affects enemy units and how it can be used in combat or in moving units across the map since the affected area is so small. Static Shield provides a useful defense for a weak magic unit. Lightning Rod is too powerful. It deals Chaos damage and has 1000 HP/6 Fortified armor. If placed correctly behind an attacking force it decimates base defenders.
8/10

Creativity: Charged Bolt and Static Shield are fairly unique, although I remember trying a spell similar to Charged Bolt. Energize is not particularly useful. Lightning Rod is a basic summon. Lightbning Rod is a beefy ward that requires the enemy player to retreat out of range or destroy it immediately.
7/10

Coding: The code seems fine, Static Shield can lag behind the unit if it is movining.
9/10

Awesomeness:
3/5

Total:
43


Theme: Fits Undead and the icon choice is superb. You also managed to use one of my favorite voice sets. These abilities all relate well. He benefits from being in the heart of combat, and with Summoning can bring the combat to him.
10/10

Role: This would be better suited as a melee strength hero. His abilities rely on enemy units being close, and Feeding direclty encourages this.
9/10

Balance: I found nothing wrong with the damage levels. I'm not sure if Summoning should be able to target the same units each time. Mind War may be too good because the stun can be from any source of damage.
9/10

Creativity: Not entirely new ideas. Summoning may have proven more interesting if it had additional criteria such as picking the weakest units in terms of HP and providing them a substantial buff.
7/10

Coding: Waits cause issues with MUI/MPI. In my initial review I misunderstood how Summoning worked and was trying to use it around enemy units.
5/10

Awesomeness:
3/5

Total:
43


Theme: An archer could fit with Humans but it is clear that in WC3 Gnomes have taken over the Human ranged combat area. Upgrades are all for powder weapons.
7/10

Role: It is an interesting combination of ranged attacker and melee healer. In combat I was able to keep an overwhlemed melee force alive through careful healing of near dead units with Holy Sigil, and opening holes for attack with Arcane Arrows.
9/10

Balance: Arcane Arrows is too powerful. It is essentially a variant of Doom in how quickly it can maim a unit. In its current form Holy Sigil is difficult to use. It has a low cooldown but your window to deal damage is only 8 seconds. For a single target ability that is not enough time. I would like to see it be an AoE. I would also like to see Forrestwalk (sp?) display the agility bonus as a standard +XX bonus on the hero stats. This is important for enemy players who may be looking to see what kind of buffs/bonuses your units have.
6/10

Creativity: I like Arcane Arrows rewarding the user for targeting high value units. Holy Sigil also rewards a player for microing weakened units to the rear of combat while the attack force stays engaged. Sigil of Dexterity had a nice effect but was otherwise underwhelming. Forrestwalk seems much more a Night Elf bonus than Human. I understand the connection to a Ranger but it is too out of line with Human skill sets.
8/10

Coding: I can see no issues here but I am lacking in advanced coding skills. As with Kyrbi0 I would suggest reducing the required libraries if possible. It may be a configuration issue but the movement bonus for Sigil of Dexterity does not last 10 seconds.
9/10

Awesomeness:
3/5

Total:
42


Theme: I've seen many pirate heroes. This is the first that really took that concept and infused it into every ability. It fits the Human concept but really would be better suited to the Tavern.
8/10

Role: This is clearly meant to be a melee hero with support abilities. I think they lean too far in the intelligence direction though. Ability cohesion is well done.
9/10

Balance: Steal Object is too powerful as there is no consideration for how much effort the enemy player expended to aquire their item - it could have a substantial gold value. Ghost Ship provides too many bonuses. The ability to have an instant air transport that also provides gold income, deals damage, and can disable a unit is too much. Walk the Plank! is too much of a drain for the enemy player - 48 gold here or there means 1 less combat unit and there's nothing that can be done to counter other than kill the Pirate Captain.
6/10

Creativity: You took the concept far and provided a unique set of abilities. I would suggest making this a ranged intelligence hero though. The hint and burried treasure ssytem is interesting but does not suit a melee setting.
9/10

Coding: Wait actions break MUI/MPI, and you have too many triggers for what these spells do.
5/10

Awesomeness:
4/5

Total:
41

Additional:
There is great potential here. Please explore it more.


Theme: The link to Human is dubious. The abilities are loosely related in that they all directly effect the armor/movement/attack stats of units.
6/10

Role:
7/10 Each ability affects unit stats but there is no much opportunity for stacking other than to spam all your abilities. For instance using Power Strike while having the Charge buff should cause extra damage or an additional effect.

Balance: Banner of the Alliance is not well suited to a melee hero. The Banner is so weak that a few hits will kill it. A more suitable implementation would be to have it as an activated aura. Otherwise there were no issues.
9/10

Creativity: I've seen all of this before. I might give more points but even the implemetations are not much different than many spells in the database.
6/10

Coding: Meets the requirements.
10/10

Awesomeness:
2/5

Total:
40


Theme: There is a clear design direction towards a disruptive melee hero meant to be thrown into combat and confuse enemy players.
9/10

Role: I am partial to heroes that could fit into the timeline after the events of TFT. The Elven Shadow reflects both the former glory of the Night Elves and the remnant state they existed in after losing their eternal power source.
9/10

Balance: At max level I was able to wipe a small normal AI attack force without microing at all. Illusion Dance in particular is too powerful.
4/10

Creativity: Shadow Dodge has been done before but I do like the integration with this hero. Drunken Brawler has simply been renamed. Shadow Blade is not different enough from Cripple. Illusion Dance is also a renamed Mirror Image. OVerall there is not a great deal new here.
4/10

Coding: You accomplished what you wanted in an effecient manner.
10/10

Awesomeness:
3/5

Total:
39


Theme: This should have been a Night Elf hero. The abilities work together, but not as well as they could if Drawback behaved correctly. Additionally the idea of an archer with four arrow based abilties is somewhat overdone.
6/10

Role: Area damage ranged attacker. There is no doubt it excels at this.
9/10

Balance: The one problem is that Drawback has no effect on spell damage which is where it should shine. It also does not stack. If you fix it to affect spell damage then you also need to reduce the damage bonus greatly.
9/10

Creativity: These are all abilities that I've seen in numerous hero maps. This is a perfect hero to do spell combinations with but you've not done that. Drawback should increase damage of all three other spells and her normal attack. Arctic Arrow could have provided a an attack damage bonus for casting additional spells on the affected unit(s), and Volley would be more suited as a % chance based on previous attack damage. There was a lot that could have been expanded on.
6/10

Coding: Waits cause issues with MUI/MPI and Do Nothings are not necessary.
5/10

Awesomeness:
2/5

Total:
37


Theme: Should be Undead or a neutral hero based around fire. There isn't much connection between the abilities other than that they can be used to force enemy units to move where you want them to. It would be nice if there was cohesion where stacking spells in a certain way would create additional magic effects.
7/10

Role: Unit movement disruptor. If an enemy wants to avoid damage they will expend energy dodging where they think you will cast. This is a fairly powerful meta ability.
9/10

Balance: They all do too much damage. I should not be able to solo kill an orange creep camp without taking more than 10% damage. Fire Barrier needs to be a point AoE target ability so the player has an idea of the width and more control over where it is being placed. I would say the same for Infernal Meteor.
7/10

Creativity: Hell Strikes is fun to use and the least familiar, but they all are too similar to spells I've seen before.
5/10

Coding: Waits cause issues with MUI/MPI. I would not use thunder clap as a dummy spell. The terrain deformation can cause desyncs in a melee game.
5/10

Awesomeness:
2/5

Total:
35


Theme: Fits into a Human tree. Polymastery is an ok ability but not something I would consider an ultimate. There could be more cohesion though with general human spell characteristics.
7/10

Role: Support caster. There is no real connection between units though. I would have liked to see an area slow that could then be used with Polymasteyr to catch more enemy units.
7/10

Balance: Chaos damage is overkill. Other than that I did not feel like I could trounce enemy armies. Nourish has a good cost/gain mix. Mana cost is low on all spells.
8/10

Creativity: There is not a great deal of new material here. Stormshiver is simply a repackaged Flamestrike.
4/10

Coding: Waits to not do MUI/MPI any favors.
5/10

Awesomeness:
2/5

Total:
33


Theme: There is no theme here.
1/10

Role: There was no theme between the abilities. You could use Storm Bolt in conjunction with Kaboom but that's about it.
2/10

Balance: Nothing outrageous. Not having a standard attack is too detrimental to creeping and basic combat.
7/10

Creativity: There is nothing new here.
0/10

Coding: There are no triggers.
0/10

Awesomeness:
1/5

Total:
11



===
===BANNAR
===


Kyrbi0

Theme:A melee archdruid we got there. Interesting. Druids always fits well to nature-based races, which NE is one of. Nice composition of in-game icons and unique spells.
Preservation - misses disabled icon.
Fury of Nature - no indicator of actual buff, animation time is too short. The tooltip holds incorrect damage value.
Ultimate isn't finished. There is no way to end the spell, redundant icons, the values for ultimate could be higher (bonuses). Visual effect for "out of range" could be added e.g ethernal projection could start flashing red when reaching max distance.
8

Role:
Melee fighter with caster-oriented theme. I'd say that there are some missconcepts here. Hero of yours has spells with decent cast range and is very potent when it comes to kiting, yet this is domain of range heroes which he is clearly not. Whatmore, his ultimative, although very unique, is designed for scout/hunter type of hero i.e prevent him from being at the front line. Kyrbi0, what have you done with his attack range values? :p7

Balance:
Of the the best entries when it comes to balance. Perfect mana costs (the fury could have it's initial cost higher tho), nice damage scaling together with snare and root effects. You knew that hero doesn't need mass damage to be usefull and unique in his kit.
His scaling is very nice, mix of strength and intelligence fits well. This is how melee/caster types should be implemented.
My only concerns came from first spell's damage values, but it's AoE-ish kind of spell so there should be no worries in the long term.
10

Creativity:
Melee druid with some wierd orientation - where is his range? Wierd sometimes equals uniqueness, this time I'm willing to agree with this.
Selfish voodoo spell together with spores and all the effects create crazy mix, however, they don't made hero useless. Stun effect, snare with addition of damage couple nicely with NE style of "hit and run" tactics. Might be especially usefull when combined with Warden and dryads which also benefit greatly from such tactics.
9

Coding:
Demo code :D It's for testing so no comments there.
There is almost nothing to judge, you surely could add more of it, consider handling the dummy abilities, providing bonus effects via code if object method results in incorrect timings etc. Coding some additional parts of spells would reduce the contrast between spells and improve some of the graphics.
(Casting unit) -> (Triggering unit)
(Owner of (...)) -> (Triggering player). This is not always true, but many events are generated strictly by players e.g spell castings, thus there is clear actions that comes from a player in order to perform given action. In such cases, we are save to use the faster native retrieving triggering player.
In the trigger related to your ultimate (Dreamscape), you could have stored references to units directly into local or global variables in order to prevent process of constantly repeating the reference statements.
4

Awesomeness:
Funny hero, unique and wierd in some way. The concept seems to be a combination of 2 themes coupled together because author was unsure which one to choose. Anyway, I had fun playing and testing him. You could have choosen differend icons for some spells e.g paw buff icon could be replaced with Dark Ritual one, which even matches spell graphics. So many colours, lol.5

Dalvengyr

Theme:Banshee Queen with cold theme fits very well. Whatmore, her kit, playstyle and overall composition would surely be nice addition to UD army. Problem: frost caster already exists in their race, thus concept might seem redundant. This would be more innovative if this was agility frost-oriented caster.9

Role:
Disruptor with high damage potential - ultimate is a nice contrast to the rest of her spells (again, situation similar to Lich hero) summoning dozen of zombies to fulfill the task of dark lady.10

Balance:
You were close. Some spell should have thier mana cost adjusted e.g the blink spell (Frost Phase) on lower levels is too cheap (original blink costs are 50/10/10) - keep in mind that your ability provides snare and damage factor.
I love the way you scaled her. The average stats again together with innate stat values are in the right place.
Main problem comes from slow mechanic - it's everywhere and it's very punishing for the enemies. Zombies could have thier movement speed reduced since they also have cold attack.
8

Creativity:
If this was agi-based caster, I'd give you 10 out of 10. Good usage of icons, model and effects. Nothing too fancy, couples well with other hero effects. For almost every spell, you have found the way to present standard concept in different fashion. Very nice.9

Coding:
I'm not gay to point out every single misstype - especially since your code is almost perfect. It's very clean, readable and efficient. Sometimes there is even too much free space but it's your call.
The amount of requirements could be reduced, but I see you have already made some "optionals". You could, however, declate trigger "t" in init methods only within portion of static if that is responsible for implementing given code - it's redundant in cases where this trigger is unused.
Everything was perfect untill I took a look at variable naming (the class's members). Something inside me died. The "u/a/s/d/e (...) /z" style is not acceptable and is a big blow to such beatiful entry. Is this approach healthy? No. You should have known that such sort names are for locals, and since I'm not the writer of this, I'd like to be able to know which name describes which variable without being forced to scroll up everytime.
The ".u = u".. oh my.. I could point out one more thing - since I'm not really into sized arrays as struct members in vJass, and from the fact that I expected a bit more from you in terms of structure, it'd be really nice if you dropped down some requirements or added some data structures into your code.
The wave spell (Frostwave) could have it's base effect size reduced, but it's no real matter - more doesn't mean better.
9.5

Awesomeness:
Fun hero to play with, fits the snare-oriented UD theme. No effect overload, no damage overload so you don't feel like a god while playing this one (although the escape ability is fancy..).
Hero matches expectations and feels fresh. I'm willing to say that Blizzard could accept some version of this banshee and implement as a ladder hero.
5

angkysaputra

Disclaimer: This entry should be disqualified and not allowed to be judged in my eyes. If the entry lacks code, I can understand that considering that it's recompensated by creativity or other factors which make hero feel complete. This one, however, is an abomination of Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V.

Theme:Repeated theme of DotA's phantom lancer - all of the spells are related to illusions and illusions only. There is nothing that my eyes could hold upon.3

Role:
High damage hero, with steady and constant damage. Perfect for killing other heroes, being also hard to kill due to illusions and block mechanics that could be applied.
Poor choice of such, model too. There is already similar hero of this kind in NE arsenal and he is called Demon Hunter. This one is a mix of Blade Master and DH which are topping the whine rankings when it comes to War3 balance.
3

Balance:
There is no balance. His only two spells have high mana costs but even so, their potential is over the roof. The criple (Shadow Blade) basically says: run or die. The excessive damage, block techniques, avoidance, snare together create overpowered mix and are unhealthy for any RPG's meta.
His statistics couple nicely with hero role though.
1

Creativity:
None. Icons are missplaced - 2nd icon should be switched with 3rd, the illusion icon should have replaced dodge one etc. Almost every ability is called "Shadow (...)".2

Coding:
None. Triggers are unnamed, not ordered, demo code isn't separated - total mess. Standard procedures in typical contest would allow judge to just ignore or delete this part completely.
Impropper choice of references, (Attacking unit), (Owner of (...)) etc. Almost every reference could be replaced by faster equivalent.
No configurables, code isn't MUI, MPI and leaks. Improper usage of waits and globals. Unnecessary usage of CustomScript in GUI code. This is shortage of trigger editor in this entry.
1

Awesomeness:
None. I don't feel awesome demolishing armies with hero taken/copied from DotA with enhanced abilities. I couldn't find nothing new in this entry, which unfortunately, feels empty.2

Mythic

Theme:Lord Voidcaller you say.. hmm.. Void is very close to "purple" for me and probably majority of peps. At least, this is how voidcallers, voidlings and monsters of such type are colored and designed in most universes. This one is green and calls skulls at his disposal - stinks like necro to me, but whateva. Whatmore, his only possible summon is.. zombie. Well played oh mighty Mythic. Anyway, meaby you wanted to be innovative? To be more serious, I'll add that his icon-kit fits the hero, together with all the effects and models. I'm against so many floating texts though.5

Role:
High burst caster with some disruption. This one should belong to Undeads. Sadly, UD already has powerfull abilities and snares. They lack, however, dexterity hero. However, this one fits quite well the role of a caster and his statistics prove that it is true. Just make sure you don't get close too when facing an army - when facing few, he will handle them with ease and won't allow to get even remotely close.6

Balance:
Imbalanced hero, one that isn't used to War3 melee standards. Cost of his spells is pain for my eyes. Although, I'm with and into reduction of mana costs for hero spells & abilities, unfortunately Blizzard is not and their standards are different - spells are very costly, especially if they are designed to deal aoe damage and even more if it's burst damage. Take a look at Blizzard or Rain of Fire. The cooldowns are horribly scaled as well, ultimate with 50 sec cd? I don't remember AoE dealing up to 450 dmg having lower cd than 1min.
Another problem are the raw values of damage. Together with his aura, they are going over the roof.
His basic stats are fine though, his mana pool is vast and hit points low, compared to melee heroes. Armor of 7 is good choice here, together with attack power.
Considering those facts, we end up with op caster, summoned to spread death to everyone opposing his master, and indeed, he actualy does annihilate everything and everyone. Spells should be rescaled, some additional positioning factor e.g channel time could also be added.
4

Creativity:
Voidcaller? Doesn't really sound fresh - not to mention he is undead, he can't really be fresh (haha). However, spells are clever-made and require a bit of strategy, especially against moving targets (instead, this should be replaced with: (...) require strategy to prevent excesive overkill damage, you want to kill as many units as possible, don't you?). The delay factor related to Darkstorm is also nice addition. Even tho, his whole kit is designed to lie waste, it is done is interesting fashion.7

Coding:
First (and almost last) and foremost: Lack of configurables. There are so many things that could or should be moved to settings panel that I won't be listing them here. You probably already know what I'm talking about.
The Cast trigger should have been splitted instead of putting everything into same basket - if you chose this direction, I could immidiately highlight mistakes like: setting TempPoint[0] within each condition to Target of ability being cast - why isn't it at the top of script? There is more of that, but just a little.
Next, the condition for neutral invurnerability as fixed condition is bad, there are more of such abilities within object editor and I could be using some custom ones on the top of that.
"DoT Loop" should have it's period interval lowered, what more checking for exact number to apply actions isn't good either. If you really want this, why isn't there modulo usage? Value % 1 == 0.
Throwing Missile Loop - code line 61 - unnecessary.
Sometimes you use CustomScripts instead of GUI formulas, if you want more of "script", go ahead and switch to jass.
The design behind "Malediction Loop" could use an improvement. Instead of looping every given interval to first remove, then apply effect, mark and instanciate targets that has been nearby caster with our aura. Every given interval check, if it's under effect of higher-lvl buff or if it's distance from caster is too great. If conditions are met - remove the buff or increase the effect. This way, you are only looping through the targets with effect applied instead of removing them from loop only to add them right away (possibly).
Another approach would be to relay on damage engine which can distinguish between spell and melee damage.
"Tornado of Souls" - Chaos damage, really? The values for group search radius don't match together ^)^ (250/260).

There were quite few small coding mistakes, but overall this was pretty well made piece of GUI script. It was very readable and hasn't really required much documentation, although addition of small documentation wouldnt hurt. The usage of standard methods for spell-making is good, the requirements in form of utility libraries e.g indexer are well chosen and there is no real overhead there. The script is effective, leakless and does the job as it should. Good job.
7

Awesomeness:
Having fun demolishing armies with single unit? Yes. This was very fun hero to play with. He is not boring, you should always be using his abilities to your advantage in chaos of battle and those are very meaningful. Concept is nice, there could be more "voidness" tho and some details could use a hand (raw stats..) but overall necros are fun.3

Codemonkey11

Theme:Very nice concept, I had great time testing her out. The kit is well made although you could chose more "arrowish" icon for your Arcane Arrows and use lovely Shadow Meld (hidden) icon instead of Orb of Annihilation one. Nontheless, the set up is more then fine, icons match spells and effects also couple nicely with this hero.
Another suggestion: provide different graphic for autoattacks when arcane buff is active.
The buff is not removed after 7 seconds what leads to permanent bonus untill it's fired against low level monster.
8

Role:
Supportive marksmen. Fills spot for range agility hero for HUM race - very good choice. Does not copy any of standard heroes, is a bit similar in concept to ranger from DotA but the amount of differences is high enough.10

Balance:
Good job. Mana costs match the ladder equivalents and effects triggered by those spells and abilities give an edge to the caster, but are not overpowered. You have to think to use this hero properly, instead of right clicking AoE anywhere around enemies.9

Creativity:
Original hero. You have found a way to provide marksmen's style and supportive spell in different fashion and whatmore, you managed to combine them together so it feels like we are playing one fresh hero, instead of playing couple of random concepts mixed together.9

Coding:
A bit different writing style than me, but you have made a rather clear, readable and efficient piece of code. Interpretation of hero as an object of class "ranger" is something very clever and should always be used as a frame for highly connected scripts with single pivot. There is a lot of configurables, and documentation is good.

You could, however, drop down ugly names such as "c" or "p" for method names. Also, public directive could also be omited, the BlessedRanger_<scope e.g data> doesn't look nice.
Arcane Arrows miss the timer factor - the buff is not reseted and has too much delay even if it is. Floating text could be configurable - flag it, whether display it or not.
Forrestwalk - first check if unit is alive, then start enumerating i.e this can save a lot of operation overhead. The calculations for ability stat should be omited by additing additional class member or via item ability. The second option might be even better due to displayed bonus on hero panel.
The timer for forrestwalking is never paused even when no instances are present.
In most cases, you can remove the SquareRoot and replace it directly with higher values. In later calculations, just refer to those values instead.
"dashT" member should only be initialized once a propper ability is learnt.
The Sigil of Dexterity dash feature would benefit greatly from "Tornado - Aura" effect.

The greatest concert comes from Arcane Arrows - the approach is exploitable - if the arrow if in the air, activation will trigger the effect immidiately i.e there is no "on next attack" factor. This could be taken into account with usage of Poisoned Arrows with proper custom buff. Check for damage event and buff placer. If both conditions are met, apply the effect. The buff will only be applied on "next attack", what fixes the problem. That method alows you to add different arrow model while spell is active.
This is tough spell anyway - it's hard to handle such case perfectly, especially since you want it to be Pop up bonus instead of arrow based ability. Additional object data resources would be needed too.
9

Awesomeness:
Don't think I've missed the pool of names that you have prepared for your Hero. Big bonus here. Once again, had great fun playing her. You have made sure both object and trigger data match each other, creating nice composition. As I've said in few other cases, you don't need big blows and mortal effects for hero to be awesome.5

Cosmicat

Theme:Arcana mage that should be placed into HUM arsenal - problem is, there is already a mage in their setup. This one is different though, so might not be that bad idea.
You've chosen well when it comes to effects and icons, they couple nicely with hero. The animation times in some cases could be extended to match visuals.
6

Role:
Strategic wizard whose role is to control the battlefield. Seems more like orcish Shadow Hunter than human mage, especialy the ultimate is wierd choice - it's a building with no effects triggered on spell cast rather than an orb of some kind.
The Energize is very unforgiving and hard to be placed correctly.
6

Balance:
This hero seems underpowered if not for the Lightning Rod - this one can deal very high damage in short amount of time but can also drain your mana in second. Thats the main problem with this hero, his underpow comes from fact that the tower is very easily counterable, while 2-4 tougher units (650+ hp) smash her into pieces no matter if shield is present or not. The escape ability provides no reliable bonus, might as well quicken your doom.
Whatmore, spells dont have any synergy. The speed provides for hero with insta cast times that wants to be hit? The idea behind "be hit" for intelligence hero is also wierd - there is no real way out once you start getting hit to trigger your effects. You will either lose whole mana or die.
5

Creativity:
Shadow Hunter for HUM is not a bad idea, and it is creative but the execution is lacking. By the way, why isn't the Charged Bolt based on classic spells? Don't complicate something that could stay simple.
If you had provided some additional synergies or effects, this one would have a better shot.
7

Coding:
If this was vanilla jass, i would say this is mediacore. But it's not and there are several places where you could improve the code. Honestly, the script can be improved greatly - With time you will be better and better at this.
Drop the ugly gg_ naming, it's vJass. Store references e.g GetSpellAbilityUnit() instead of recalling functions over and over.
You don't need to store player handle - unit handle is enough. Configurables should be placed in globals block instead of function spamming. Calls such as CountUnitsInGroup/GroupPickRandomUnit can be replaced easily, the latter could be even FirstOfGroup. ForGroup should be replaced by FirstOfGroup loop or the list iteration.
When you see a man on the street - would you rather describe him as (example) blond, tall, handsome guy <or> Tall guy. Blond guy. Handsome guy. See the difference? Single sentence this sounds more reasonable. The same situation goes to condition list - instead of emerging a if/elseif monster, just combine them together.
If you're not dealing with heights, always use coordinates directly, instead of locations.
Beacuse of fact that you are relying on native globals (e.g bj_enumDestructableCenter) your spells might work incorretly when placed in someones map i.e those might have different purpose already. Moreover, MPI & MUI feature might be lost too due to some improper delays that are present here - second cast or another unit performing the same task could ruin your script actions.
Dealing with variables that are level dependant? Use arrays to retrieve them instatly e.g MyData[1] = 'duf1' (index 1 stands here for level 1).
Static Shield's approach could be different - instead of catching attack event, you could react on damage event. This would make your spells more accurate.
Nulling trigger does not prevent leak from existing if circumstances align for leak to appear. Trigger leak may be removed via DestroyTrigger native, granted we stored required reference somewhere inside the code. To keep code clean, it's adviced to null local variables that refer to handles.
In many cases, GetTriggerUnit() should be used instead of specific getters.

There is a lot work ahead of you, even that for some this might be okish, if you chose vJass or any other script language available in War3 environment, make sure you know the standards to keep the code healthy and clean. Wish you good luck in future projects of yours.
3

Awesomeness:
Sorry to say, but this one feels like "meh" compared to some other entries. I want to give honest opinion so you can improve your further stuff. Instead of coupling random ideas, first try to think how you (yes, you) would see this hero in human army with other heroes running around. How is he fitting army set up and available choices?
Nonetheless, I had fun, as always, playing and testing something new coupled together with old units.
3

Direfury

Theme:I'll try not to take stuff you take, or at least try to avoid it if possible. Thats the wierd thing we got here..
An arcanist with voice of demon and green flares. Last time I've checked, the arcane is highly connected to blue and purple colours. Ya, whatever - or not?
Bird for roar icon? Paw for polymorph? Mage is changing his colours too - first she wears blue, then she shines with green. Nice..
Some icons are missing the disabled counterparts. The icon for hero could also be different.
4

Role:
A funny punny caster whose role might be better described as confusing opponents whats the hell is wrong with that hero rather than straigh fighting.
If I was to be serous here, she would probably ended up as disruptive caster with supportive capabilities.
5

Balance:
Underpowered and overpowered at the same time. The mechanics are not yet finished, thus there are a lot of unreliable things going on, thats why hero is hard to control.
I don't recall this one having synergies, on contrary, there is a lot of random stuff. The wisps especially. A random pile of beams with no description or tooltips. Mana costs are set to 75, no differences that might tell us if one spell is more powerfull than other. I know that the initial values for some are different, but you end up with ugly 3x75 anyway.
I'm not even sure if this one should have intelligence as primary stuff i.e that arcanist is certainly not the smartest one.
Chaos damage instead of hero type is unacceptable. Dexterity base and gain values are too low. Armor of 3 at level 10 for such hero makes her too squishy. Cooldown of Stormshiver is also something you could work on.
4

Creativity:
Wierd not always equals creative. I'm unsure whats the right judgement here. AoE polymorth with falling sheep and random wisps could be called creative if the execution was better. You could fix the effects of Nourish so there isn't so much stuff there e.g concetrate on one part e.g mana and armor gain. The damage reduction flavour is nice though.7

Coding:
No testing or debug preparation. I had to create and modify map myself in order to test it.
Code is in really bad shape and honestly, all triggers should be rewritten. I strongly advice you to visit tutorial section of hiveworkshop and start practising with examples available in spell section.
Improper usage of references, waits and globals. No configurables, code leaks is not MUI nor MPI.
You dont store any caught references and relay on ladder abilities (bonus +5 to stats) which can already be modified in someones map.
Again, (Triggering unit) could be the choice in most triggers of yours, replacing (Casting unit) and other natives.
Instead of picking units in rectangle of size 450x450, pick units found within circle around given point but not further than 450 units away. In current state, actual spell effect doesn't match graphic indicator.

Such code is not clean nor pleasant, but I wish you best in your future projects.
2

Awesomeness:
There is a lot that has to be improved in order to make this entry awesome. I found it funny, but the potential is unfortunately lost. Hero bugs out very quickly, especialy if you cast abilities multiple times or if another instances are present, that I'm not feeling awesome playing a gloryfied footman with effects and actions missing. Sometimes I felt like I'm doing nothing, really.
But I guess thats the part of disruption mechanics. Even if there is no effect, at least the enemy doesn't know what going on either.
2

Footman16

Theme:Lord Garithos! Unfortunately, as awesome the classic hero concept is, your composition hasn't impressed me. The grand marshall who is supposed to buff allies and charge into enemies with glory and light in his hands..
This one seems dull with no real effects and very lazy spells. Yeah, the first thing you notice is that your hero completely misses visual effects. Even if there is an effect, it's probably the wrong one e.g Charge.
The icons are chosen randomly i.e you could have found better choices for Cry Havoc and Charge spells because surely, hand and foot don't express the actions given spell triggers correctly. There are many options available e.g Berserk or Reincarnation at your disposal.
I'm sad that you avoided "holy" theme as much as possible. Also, since the hero speaks crazy phrases, you could have used that to your advantage via some interesting spells.
5

Role:
Offensive melee fighter able to greatly increase the power of allies and his own. Against heavy cc or disruption his abilities might not be that good but his late game power is of the roof.
This one would probably go to HUM arsenal - problem is, humans already have 2 strength heroes. You could have worked on agility version or make this one more unique.
5

Balance:
As i said, his early power is very low i.e you would probably choose Power Strike for first skill point. Power Strike has melee range and it's equivalences outrange and outdamage it heavily. The ministun doesn't help either.
However, the Charge bonus allows high level hero to nuke and kill everything in seconds, not to mention that it stacks with Cry Havoc. Both have the same duration what I don't agree with. Self buff should always last longer than AoE buff.
Honestly, Charge and Cry Havoc should be combined and you would have place for one additional ability. Power Strike could also use some adjustments, both in effect and visuals. Banner that scares enemies? Sure. Banner that damages enemies? Nope.
On top of pulsing effect that is missing here, this is the spell that could hold any op buff if you wanted some.
6

Creativity:
I'm not impressed. 2x buffs + underpowered thunderbolt with banner that deals damage. It's Lord Garithos! More glory, more honor, please!
I have described most of the points related to creativity above - once again, you should have combined some effects here and add new ones there. Few simple operations would make this one a lot more fun to play as.
4

Coding:
Almost no code here. You could have provided a better debug code but thats not the real deal.
Standard of the Alliance - you should have added all the units of type "banner" into single group and iterate through it every given period of time.
Battle Stomp is poor choice here since this one provides ministun which stops channeling abilities what is not mentioned in the description.
Temp_Point set but not used what effectively creates a leak since you are not using and removing location handle in a proper way.
Power Strike - there is only requirement for single if statement to check if the ability is already learnt. 3x if just to change 1 number in few lines? You can do better than that.
Storing the current level of ability during calculations might help you there.

No configurables, spells lack effects and additional bonuses - again, this could be greatly improved via simple triggers.
3

Awesomeness:
Lord Garithos is awesome, but not in this version. Because of the reason mentioned, the hero feels dull and it's a shadow of true Lord (or meaby this one is just asleep?)
The lack of graphics and visuals is the heaviest blow to Awesomeness because as much as I don't favour high bust effects, I don't like autoattackers either.
Cool set of names you got there tho :)
2

Rufus

Theme:An archery archer. Yeah, there is a lot of bow and "arrow" stuff. If everything leads to provide an answer to question: how big and how many arrows I can shoot? Why isn't her name: Big F. Gun?
Every effect has basically the same model: an arrow. Every icon represents a bow or arrow on black & white background. Don't get me wrong, I like the initial idea, but this one could be more than BFG..
Example of improving visuals: each time the proc for multistrike is active, different icon could be used: fire arrows (hidden). Hero itself could even benefit from visuals too e.g adding effect to his hand or weapon. Right now, it's hard to tell in chaos of battle when our effect is active. Also, it's certainly more than 3 arrows :)
The tooltips are lacking informations.
4

Role:
Marksmen. BFG. Reaper. The deaths wish. Agility for humans is good idea, but this one could be better executed then just being a right clicker - HUM race is always about abilities and strategy, never relies on raw attack power.5

Balance:
BFG, reaper, the deaths wish etc. I have not mentioned those for no reason. Girl with such power.. I wouldnt want her as my gf.
The moment this one gains few level, the second enemies leave the game. You don't need strategy, no skill, just right click to lay waste to countless armies. 30 mana for spammable 90 bonus damage hero-type damage?
Every second attack damage whole army? This scales enormously with her Drawback. Enemy hero running away? Arctic Arrow says welcome. If anyone was to fight against her, he needs more than skill and cheats to do so - if he hasn't left the game already that is.
13 armor at level 10, 49 agility and 3.20 gain per level - perfect and well chosen values.. wait, what!? Oh, this is B.F.G we talking about. Tanks like truck, fires like black hawk. Good job balancing this one.
2

Creativity:
There is a lot you should tweak to provide different view on our archer with each spell. Bow, Arrow, Bow, Arrow isn't really fascinating. You took most of stuff from LoL's Ashe hero and added some basic common abilities to create a monster.
Why not provide some kind of selfbuff? Or dexterity oriented spell? Or meaby some wizardy since she comes from elven country anyway. If you really wanted to implement Ashe, the lack of frost spells hurts. Vision based abilities are also perfect for differenciating autoattackers.
4

Coding:
Why not visit some tutorials first?
Code is dirty and lack configurables. Abilities are not MUI, MPI and leak horribly. Unpropper usage of waits and globals.
In most cases, (Owner of (...)) could be replaced with (Triggering player). The same goes to (Triggering unit) as a replacement for (Casting unit) and others.
Location and other handles such as groups should be stored and removed when effect is finished to prevent the leaks. Addition of global groups or list is required in order to provide MUI solution for your spells.
You have also forgotten about loops i.e instead of repeating given line multiple times, use loop statement to do that for you.
The approach for multishot is bad. Unit type enumetation into picking targets nearby and if found, repeat enumeration just to find which arrow was close enough? Store the (Picked unit) first, then perform some operations.
3

Awesomeness:
Arrow, arrow, arrow, bow, arrow. This pretty much sums up your hero. Even though I had great time demolishing everything around this little lady of yours, I'd not implement such hero into ladder environment.
Multishot could have used some sound effects and overall, there could be more than just arrows flying around. Right now, this feels like I'm firing the same projectile over and over again. All the effects are concentrated on dealing damage what provides a clear lack of mechanics for this one (tho you need to understand stutterstep technique in order to own your enemies in the first place).
3

Shadow Fury

Theme:You were talking with Rufus yes? This concept is very similar when it comes to idea: here the arrow theme is replaced with fire. Every spell is an area of effect ability that deals damage. How interesting.
Icons match the spells and their effects are also chosen well. The model, however, is somewhat lacking. Knight, chaos knight as a pyromancer of some kind? Certainly, melee doesn't fit this arsenal of spells. What about charging? Where my curses had gone?
Whatmore, first, second and ultimate spells are not really different from each other. They all deal damage, just in various shapes :)
5

Role:
High burst caster who is actualy a melee character (400 range yeah). Fate lets him join the ranks of horde. A chaos orc, really!? After all the Thrall has done to prevent the horde from Legions influence you want another bloodthirsty orc walking on this earth? You crazy..6

Balance:
His mana costs are high but so is his damage. His burst is outstanding. Stat gains for both, strength and intelligence are high. The ultimate's cd is too short. Horde already has heroes made for AoE damage but there is more of disruption there too.
This one lacks some mechanics, his slow is not reliable and for high level play, just damage is never enough (unless this one gains 10 levels). There are no real synergies, neither in hit kit nor with units from orcs arsenal.
5

Creativity:
You could do more than that. If one spell deals heavy AoE damage, provide second one that do something different. There is a reason why heroes usually have 1 lower (weaker) and 1 passive ability. Here, we got set of 4 abilities that do practicaly the same and have similar cost what will eventualy make some of them useless - you do not need 4 buttons if 2 are just enough.
Cuting some damage would leave space for spells such as Cauterize Wounds (since your hero is fire oriented). That would make your hero more fun to play with good strategy mechanics on top of that.
4

Coding:
Pretty much the same as in few other entries.
Lack of practise shows results here. Your spells are neither MUI nor MPI. They leak heavily and since all of them are AoE oriented, can quickly provide lag experience for user. Any other instance running after the first one effectively breaks your spells randering hero unable to perform any actions.
Improper usage of globals and waits. Skipping loop statements and dirty usage of if statements. Bring arrays to store data and use spell level as an index to retrieve proper values thus avoiding a lot of unnecessary code.
The approach for some spells is also bad - you don't need to search multiple times small areas in Cross Fire trigger. Initialize 4 rects instead, and they check if targets found within those rectangles.
(Triggering unit) should replace most of other calls such as (Casting unit). The same goes to (Owner of(...)) that should have been replaced with (Triggering player).
Store the references to prevent multiple calls what effectively improves efficiency greatly. Currently, you spam function calls left and right.
There are also no configurables presented. Honestly, just few hours of exercises and you would do the same stuff in much more efficient way, more readable way and with half of code size.
3

Awesomeness:
Hero is fun to play, especially on higher levels when you have a lot of mana. There are lots of effects going around too. However, if this was more than a bunch of fiery AoEs, you would have a better score. A lot of reds does not equal awesome. Clearly, the execution could have been better.
Once again, if you want to provide different shapes for your AoEs (not just circle), you could combine some spells and add another shape with each level leaving space for additional stuff. Here, it's more of a "boss" character than actual hero, but I know that with time, your projects will be better and better.
3

Wa666r

Theme:A Nathrezim Agent, sounds interesting. Sneaky assasin with powerful disruption, almost too powerful. Ok, honestly, you have watched too many games with Blade Master as a star.
This hero is subject for permanent invisibility with high damage potential and ability to be hero killer. The range attack doesn't fit this one, especially since dread lords are very intelligent demons but melee fighters. You could have added more shadow oriented or dark based elements into this concept.
The icons could have been chosen better. Egg for Mind War and Urn of Ashes for Summoning? There are already perfect icons for mind oriented spells (Possession) and there are plenty for summonings (even scrolls and Dark Ritual fit here). The effects lack shadowy theme i.e thats how I imagen the demons.
The summoning lacks consistency i.e the graphic effect doesn't match actual action. The randomness hurts too and tooltips could be improved.
7

Role:
Midrange assasin with high disruption potential. Goes into UD arsenal which lacks assasin kind of hero - well made choice. Agility oriented hero is something undead army was in need for a very long time. Unfortunately, this hero plays much differently compared to other undeads i.e is a solo character.5

Balance:
Overpowered. Permanent invisibility (yes, requires Brilliance Aura or a Mana Potion to achieve but you can also just hit heroes..) is broken. Together with his Mind War we got a recipe for Blade Master 2.0. Don't get me wrong, this hero has a lot of synergies e.g mana drain to sustain his invisibility & snare and stun to get the job done but there are too many of them and are not scaled properly.
Since his activation cost of Deceive is very low and Feeding is passive, the only thing he got to spend mana on is Mind War which potential is of the roof. Even peons become murderes when each hit has a 20% chance to stun for 2 seconds.
Couple those with fact that you can sneak invisible into an opponents base and summon just enough units to finish the key structures.
His attack speed is also something that multiplies effects of Feeding and Mind War greatly. Basicaly, if something gets hit by our Nathrezim Agent, it dies.
Raw stats and stat gains are fine and his armor values end up fair but that doesn't compensate the possibilties brought by his spell arsenal.
1.5

Creativity:
Blade Master 2.0 doesn't sound creative. Ultimate is kind of orginal - kinda, becuase it's campaign summoning with mixed randomness.
The invisibilty is meh. Why not something involed with darkness or night? Where is my vision manipulation or decieving skills?
The stun idea was nice, but you could have scaled it better and meaby replace stun with constant vision loss or such. NIGHT!
3

Coding:
(Triggering unit) together with (Triggering player) should be the choice if yours in almost all cases instead of (Casting unit) and (Owner of (...)).
Impropper usage of waits and uncorrent use of if statements. The globals and waits coupled made spells not MUI nor MPI in this case.
Instead of repeating the if statement to execution code, use arrays or other storages to halt the code size and improce efficiency.
Code leaks multiple handles, even that sometimes you set value to variable to remove some unnecessary calls, you don't clear the leaks when effect is finished.
The correct choice of event is: Unit begins effect of ability. Stick with this one. Spells lack configurables.
Your approaches could be improved greatly. Especialy the Deceive algorithm. Add agents or units with your ability to set group or list. Now, every time period event fires, just loop through that group or list and check for buffs to apply correct effect.
Right now, you are performing two enumerations - one for "on" and one for "off" effect. Whatmore, the enumeration type is: "every unit" (found on playable area) what can easily end up lagging someone out when the certain amount of units are present on the map.
Never ever do that. This piece was better than some others, but surely it could use a hell lot of improvements.
3

Awesomeness:
UD version of Blade Master feels good to play as, especialy if it is us who are under control of this monster. Hero effectively removes fun from other players to summon their heroes and draws ppl crazy because of his limitless potential brought by mix of mana burn, invisibility, tp and stun.
There are very few effects and in my eyes, they don't match hero theme completely. The only shadow effect comes from.. autoattack, yes. Range of 400 is a nail in to coffin for dream of balanced "blade master 2.0".
3

A Void

Disclaimer: Entry requires UMSWE or other modyfication in order to be opened properly. Such restrictions are forbidden in all of the contests and it's a surprise that it has been allowe here.
If not for Kyrbi0' good attitude, this entry would be disqualified.


Theme:Nice and original concept that shares some ideas with Techie from DotA. Unfortunately, this is ladder we are talking about, and no ladder hero would end up without basic attack. Right now you are obligated, almost forced to put first skill point into 3rd ability: "Light the Fuse!".
The ultimate spell is also very wierd - the damage is fine but the death of hero as a consequence? You would never ever pick this hero. The cost of reviving high level hero together with time loss is too much.
The Goblin Land Mine already does the job and there is no need for instant mine that hurts both sides a lot.
The volley ability which replaces autoattack effectively takes one spot from heroes arsenal of abilities.
5

Role:
Offensive, range (?) hero perfect for controling the battlefield. Goes into Orc army. The choice of goblin race is good, since horde lacks goblin flavour but this one could have been intelligence based.
Requires a lot of strategy to control well and is unreliable in most cases.
5

Balance:
Heavily underpowered, although the cooldown on mine is pretty wierd - 0 seconds (the duration of mine is strange subject too). The mines may be activated via single unit or killed with invisibilty ward and preparing them takes a lot of time. Whatmore, most of maps are at least middle-size but even when playing 1x1 map, the amount of area to cover is huge. Thats why in most cases, you cant get enough value from this spell.
Loss of autoattack replaced with volley ability doesn't help either - loss of one ability. The ultimate hits hard but cost up to 540gold not to mention the lumber and time consumption is far too much for this ability to be activated. Don't forget that during that time hero could be getting additional points of experience.
His health pool is very low and the dexterity as main stat is worst choice here.
3

Creativity:
Very creative in some way, yet those original concepts lead hero to be almost useless and lack functionality. The volley ability could be active type of effect which would "replace" his autoattack for the duration. Level 6 spell also requires some tweaks in order to make it actualy usable.6

Coding:
Not much to judge.
(Triggering unit) should have been used instead of (Casting unit), (Attacked unit) and such. Code leaks - you must store references to handles such as locations and remove them when they are useful no longer to avoid them. Instead of spamming if statements, use an array or store data in other way to eaze the retrieval of ability's information and effectively halt code size.
That would also improve the efficiency of your spells. Lack of configurables. AI code for Kaboom is pointless, first CP would never train such hero, second there are better ways to achieve such thing. Currently, that method is unreliable and the 0.01 period is bad choice.
4

Awesomeness:
Feeling awesome? Not really. Killing myself for cheap results is not rewardable. In most cases, you end up running around or using Cluster Rocket. If you are running around (maxing 3rd spell), then you dont even have to control your hero, just let it follow your army or be assigned to some ground. If maxing thunderbolt-like spell, then there is even less to do and there are better equivalents of that spell already.
Honestly, there is no way I would choose this one over any other ladder hero, except for the first time to see whats up. Nonetheless, with few additional mechanics this one would have much greater potential, since clearly, the potential is here.
1


DED1

Theme:Treacherous captain Kunkka with multiple additions. Pretty much a RPG character, who with just two hands is still able to hold 11 weapons. Yeah, this guy has many cards under his sleeve.
You have overcomplicated your entry - the amount of stuff does qualify this pirate neither for ladder nor for DotA map. Pirate, Navigator Beaks and Ghost Ship - really? Who's gonna control that? The amount of work to do when playing this guy pretty much
forces controler to resign from having an army, not to mention other heroes.. Never, ever provide low mana cost spell that can heavily impact another players infrastructure. The Walk in the Plank! can single handly win you the game from the very begining if used correctly. Opponent won't be able to react because his resources will be limited. Moreover, the Navirator Beaks has also something to say:
The ability to steal an item is an absurd. Ship + bird allows for very good scouting and can tease the enemy. Don't think I have forgotten about ship's passive - oh no, next nail in the coffin for statement that this one is OK.
You should have concentrated on 4-5 ideas and implemented them directly instead of going so far away from basic concept that you ended up creating 3 heroes under single banner: The Pirate.
6

Role:
A mother.f.k. and a thief. Each of 3 iconic players (the pirate, the bird and the ship) together fight with one goal in mind: steal everything from everyone. Owner gets super rich, foes are ultra poor.
HUM arsenal, you say hmm.. HUM race is the best one when it comes to economy, especially gold subject due to Militia + Cooperative Building + Easy exp protection - without even the addition of composition of yours. The addition of this gang removes the requirement of expension at all - the other player is working for our bank anyway.
5

Balance:
Ultra overpowered and toxic in environment due to fact, that our opponent can't do a thing if we play hero correctly. Sustain damage and constant gold income. His raw initial stats are also too high.
Beaks's and ship's stats are far too good, with abilities on top of that we don't have to focus on building too much. The scout possibilites are endless and each of our scouts has an arsenal of spells that help us exploit every misstep to our adventage.
You haven't probably played against him, but trust me - you wouldn't want too. There is no way you gonna hide your tech and valuables/treasures gained from neutral camps can be stolen so easily. Since ship is summoned from time to time - it lasts for very long time and has abilities which allow it to escape in most of situations. Parrot is very cheap (also consider it's duration time), the only thing you gonna end up spending mana on is Walk in the Plank! - what is exactly what you need: punish your enemy every time you see him (with taxes..).
1

Creativity:
Hero is very creative, especially the treasure mechanics and his general concept. Unfortunately it's not RPG but RTS and your abilities don't trigger properly in some cases thus not everything worked out. Don't get me wrong, this would be the perfect subject for RPG hero or character but here, we are more focused on standard ladder heroes what brings some limitations.
I like the connection between parrot, ship and pirate - all of them working together with the same goal in mind. Most of the effects are cool and the icons match the kit well.
9

Coding:
You have overcomplicated most of your algorithms and approaches, but the amount of triggers is too high to write everything down, although some triggers consist of no code at all. Most of the mistakes are repeated in each of them. Shortening the approaches would effectively result in reduction of code size to about 40-50% of yours.
Some scripts aren't MUI, MPI and waits are used in incorrect way. (Triggering unit) and (Triggering player) could replace most instances of (Attacked unit) etc. and (Owner of (...)). References to often used values retrieved from natives should be stored to improve the efficiency.
Code leaks heavily and is not well tested. Most of the spells can be bugged out quickly. Store handles, use them and clean them up when they are no longer needed.
With proper usage of loops and if statements you wouldn't need to write some pieces multiple times e.g Purchase Rumer hint (1, 2, 3).
There is a lot room for improvements, right now there are so many flaws that the game experience can be ruined in minutes - you don't want your hero to do nothing, do you? The readability could be better if the amount of triggers was reduced. 1-2 triggers should be enough for 1 spell. Configurables should be one of new additions too.
Strongly adviced to visit tutorial and spell section for explanations and exaples, wish you the very best.
3

Awesomeness:
Hero is fun to play with - stealing gold and everything - you feel like you are really playing as a pirate. The bird and ship couple nicely into this theme. The names found within pool fit perfectly. You have connected common subjects related to piracy very well. Unfortunately, it's not an RPG :(
Remember, if this is you who has to stand against might of trio gang.. uhmm.. well, good luck.
4


===
===SOFTMINTS
===
(Can't really copy/pasta it, so just check out the link)



Score
RepEntryName

85.24
50+5Blessed RangerCokemonkey11

84.55
35+5Banshee QueenDalvengyr

74.09
25+5Arch DruidKyrbi0

68.87
5ArtificerCosmicat

68.48
5Dark SorcerorMythic

67.76
5Nathrezim AgentWa666r

60.57
5Pirate CaptainDED1

57.01
5Grand MarshalFootman16

51.97
5Fire KnightShadow Fury

51.52
5MarksmanRufus

51.35
5ArcanistDirefury

40.32
5Elven ShadowAngkySaputra

20.38
5Goblin SappersA Void

Whew! It was pretty close there between the top two, with the rest of us lagging behind. Congratulations to Cokemonkey11, Dalvengyr and Kyrbi0 for their winning entries, and congratulations to all who entered! And on a personal note, thanks for letting me butcher manhandle botch up big time run this contest-thingie! Quite an interesting experience. :p

===

Contest ||Poll

(Hey, "a little over a month" isn't too bad, considering... :p)
 

Attachments

  • HC#7 - Voting Calculations.zip
    11.5 KB · Views: 124
Last edited:

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492
I was SO CLOSE!... But alas, I fell short. I'm grateful for those that liked my little Arch Druid. I worked hard on him, and even though I stuck to the incorrect guns (i.e. I just had to squeeze an "astral projection"-type ability in there :p), I did OK.

Have a few thoughts about what the Judges wrote (but LAWL even I can't respond to Kam & Bannar), but I'll save that for a bit later.

Oh, and Dalvengyr:

Uhm, okay, I think I'm losing because somehow people think my hero is a duplicate of Lich (just because of his frost nova spell), whereas it's not, guess I get not only 0/10 for theme, but -50/10 lol. Fair enough. My hero is extremely optimized, totally bug free, extremely balanced, has high versatility, totally melee-ish, easiest around here to be used, simply have the highest useability value. But guess those mean nothing here.

This is exactly why I will never achieve something here on THW, or any other places :)
are-you-fucking-kidding-me-face-620x250.png


//EDIT//
Criminy... Keiji was too quick on the draw, and [Closed] the Poll thread. So my reply post to several of you:

I hope we will not be waiting another month for judging to conclude.
aKZuBN9.gif
Nope. Shouldn't have to wait very long at all... :D

~~~

Softmints said:
Referring to my rule of thumb regarding hero theme: that using at least two visual elements distinctly, generally produces a much richer and firmer sense of character. But no-one else has seen me say that yet, since it's described in my judging document. :crazz:
Lol, good point. I kinda forgot that. : )

Depends upon your form of English, but in British English it is Marshall, with the two LLs.
Oh really? Huh, my bad. Yeah, it's spelled with one 'L' here in 'murica. That would explain things.

This is what I mean. We'd probably have more votes/participants if people were more willing to say, "I only had time to play all but four of the entries, so here are my votes for all but four of the entries."
Oh, I was willing (& able), and people knew they could (it's right there at the top of the page, in the information-providing "poll": "vote for as many as you can"). I just didn't want to. I really wanted to go through everybody's entry.

Cosmicat said:
Edit: Also, while polling the room for opinions on the best course of action is admirable in a way, you are the host. You don't really need everyone to agree with you before you make a decision.
Point taken. :p

Also, honestly, I can't expect a good score on that criteria indeed, I already knew it from the first place, it's totally fine. But I just can't make my mind how come it become a so terrible issue, causing me tobe kicked away to 8th rank. Without seeing other scoring in other fields, your review can be very argue-able. Maybe that's a side impact of this voting system.
Sure, everyone's vote (& even the judge's Judging, to an extent) is arguable. It's all opinion (though we strive for subjectivity).

But yeah. It's not that it was *so* terrible (you did make the top of my bottom bracket). But I'll be honest; given the Constraints that were decided on for this Contest ("5th Hero Addition" and "In-Game Models Only"), I was pretty much expecting (& hoping/preferring) to see people use the vast number of fancy unused (campaign) Hero models as the base for their Hero design (Arthas, Proudmoore, Jaina, Thrall, Illidan, Garithos, Malfurion, Sylvanas, etc), and then possibly unused (campaign) Unit models, with hero glow. That's what I feel/felt would fit best & be most awexome.

On the contrary, only about 3/4 of us did so (actually, more than I thought). And doing so didn't guarantee a good score from me (see: AngkySaputra, Shadow Fury, Wa666r, etc). But seeing it automatically gave me a good feeling about that particular Hero, and I then approached things based on the Theme & Role which I feel are so important to Hero Design. Not simply 'interior' Theme/Role coherence (does it make sense/fit well for itself), but 'exterior' coherence as well (does it make sense/fit well for the rest of the heroes/race).
 
Last edited:
Level 3
Joined
Dec 14, 2014
Messages
29
First of all congratualtions to all who participated and, specially, to the 3 winners!

Now, wouldn't it be cool to post links to these heroes so we could download them and have some fun since they're the awesomest-est-est-est heroes around? =]

Rick.
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492
Kyrbi0, make sure that the judging is visible to everyone - I can paste you the text again if you want to.
Umm...
First Post said:
...I forgot to save the text-versions (& thus explanations) of two of the Judges (Kam & Bannar). I wrote down the #'s immediately into the Voting Calculations sheet (which is why we have the Results at all), but you'll just have to trust me until I get another copy of them. Sorry again.//
So yeah, whenever I can get it again. That's what I'm waiting for. : )
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492
Cool! I've been a member on this site for like 8 years and this is the first time I won a contest :D
No kidding. Same here (sans '8 years').

Cokemonkey11 said:
Congrats to everyone who participated, and a big thanks to the judges who provided excellent feedback. I found this to be one of the best contests so far.
<3

... and not just because you won, right? ; )
 
Congratz to all the winners, I do feel though a bit of a gap between the contest theme and how the entries were judged (in my opinion). I feel as though the idea was to create a fifth melee hero and that seems to have been thrown out the window for just a make a cool hero that fits (meh) into melee.

Either way, if I'd wanted it judged my way I would've tried to be a judge which I didn't so well done to everyone, those rep bonuses though, wow.

EDIT: Are the user votes supposed to be in the OP?
 

fladdermasken

Off-Topic Moderator
Level 39
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
3,688
Congratulations winners, yadda yadda!

Just poking my head in to tell you to include links to all final entries in the poll. It makes it much easier to dish out the rep rewards. Having convoluted poll systems is fine and all that, but at least keep a list of all entries in the thread. I have chosen arbitrary posts in the thread (except for Cokemonkey11 that actually posted his final entry) as reward posts.

Except awards soon.
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492
How did Wolffman get disqualified?
You saw the Poll thread, right? Inside the .Zip is a readme file, which details me going through all the entries for obvious Disqualification issues to pass onto the Judges.

IIRC, Wolffman used both no triggers & had custom artwork, both of which were against the rules.

Just poking my head in to tell you to include links to all final entries in the poll. It makes it much easier to dish out the rep rewards. Having convoluted poll systems is fine and all that, but at least keep a list of all entries in the thread. I have chosen arbitrary posts in the thread (except for Cokemonkey11 that actually posted his final entry) as reward posts.

Except awards soon.
I will get on that; Ralle is also bugging me. : ) However, you should know that all the entries are actually in Pastebin's; there are no posts which contain entries (aside from, apparently, Cokemonkey11 (the rebel)). Of course, Ralle's getting on me for that too, so no worries, will do.
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492
~NOTiCE~

ATTENTION Entrants: As Ralle has requested, we need each entrant to post their final entry attached to a new post in this thread, so you may receive your eternal reward.

Thanks.


~~~

All the Judge's Judging is up on the First Post! Check it out.

//EDIT//

Footman16 said:
Congratz to all the winners, I do feel though a bit of a gap between the contest theme and how the entries were judged (in my opinion). I feel as though the idea was to create a fifth melee hero and that seems to have been thrown out the window for just a make a cool hero that fits (meh) into melee.
I could perhaps agree with you here, somewhat. I suppose I could optimistically state that "people (entrants, judges, etc) were all still adjusting to the idea of a Hero Contest of this kind"; that is, a more Melee-fitting (rather than any-fitting or AoS-fitting) Hero entry. Most entrants 'got it' and designed accordingly, but there were some snags. Most judges 'got it' and judged accordingly, but again, some snags. More thoughts on particular judges later...

Footman16 said:
...those rep bonuses though, wow.
What, not what you were expecting (high/low?)? Those rep amounts were stated since the very beginning of the Contest, & they have been standard across the last few Contests like this, AFAIK...

Footman16 said:
EDIT: Are the user votes supposed to be in the OP?
Umm.... Yes? And they are?

Since it wasn't the 'regular' poll (i.e. with a single vote per candidate & all that), I couldn't just write it out like we are used to seeing. However, I incorporated all the voters voting information (i.e. their rankings & the points they thus awarded to each entry they voted for) into the Excel spreadsheet attached to the first post (&, if you can't open that, check the screenshot (I attached it in the "voting" section, so people could see the... 'votes' : )...), so that's probably what you're looking for.
 
Last edited:
What, not what you were expecting (high/low?)? Those rep amounts were stated since the very beginning of the Contest, & they have been standard across the last few Contests like this, AFAIK...

High, I knew those would be the rewards but just looking at those numbers in the OP makes them seem... larger.

Anyway, my Grand Marshall. Thinking about it now and looking at the judge's comments they are some things I'd definitely do differently and some things that I'd want to implement but didn't have the confidence in this kind of contest.
 

Attachments

  • (4)THW. HC7 Footman16.w3x
    151.5 KB · Views: 73

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492
... The entire issue is that they can't give you your Rep for a Pastebin; we need you to actually physically post with your final entry attached. :<

High, I knew those would be the rewards but just looking at those numbers in the OP makes them seem... larger.

Anyway, my Grand Marshall. Thinking about it now and looking at the judge's comments they are some things I'd definitely do differently and some things that I'd want to implement but didn't have the confidence in this kind of contest.
I'm with you, there. In particular, balancing numbers better (esp. Preservation), tweaking some of the SFX & anims (harder than I thought), and probably re-working the Ultimate entirely (I was too dead-set on including an "Astral Projection" bit; really 'tore' the Ultimate in half, thematically, and thus crippled it role-matically).
 

Cokemonkey11

Code Reviewer
Level 29
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
3,522
ATTENTION Entrants: As Ralle has requested, we need each entrant to post their final entry attached to a new post in this thread, so you may receive your eternal reward.

Thanks.


~~~

All the Judge's Judging is up on the First Post! Check it out.

//EDIT//


I could perhaps agree with you here, somewhat. I suppose I could optimistically state that "people (entrants, judges, etc) were all still adjusting to the idea of a Hero Contest of this kind"; that is, a more Melee-fitting (rather than any-fitting or AoS-fitting) Hero entry. Most entrants 'got it' and designed accordingly, but there were some snags. Most judges 'got it' and judged accordingly, but again, some snags. More thoughts on particular judges later...


What, not what you were expecting (high/low?)? Those rep amounts were stated since the very beginning of the Contest, & they have been standard across the last few Contests like this, AFAIK...


Umm.... Yes? And they are?

Since it wasn't the 'regular' poll (i.e. with a single vote per candidate & all that), I couldn't just write it out like we are used to seeing. However, I incorporated all the voters voting information (i.e. their rankings & the points they thus awarded to each entry they voted for) into the Excel spreadsheet attached to the first post (&, if you can't open that, check the screenshot (I attached it in the "voting" section, so people could see the... 'votes' : )...), so that's probably what you're looking for.


Does this work? http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/pastebin.php?id=g7so00

(Contains attached file)
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492

Cokemonkey11

Code Reviewer
Level 29
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
3,522
Blessed Ranger Final Entry:

R6mAbvk.jpg
Blessed Ranger: The Blessed Ranger is thematically a kind
of ranged cleric; she is a battle hero with inherent supportive
abilities, especially related to healing allies.

In implementation, the blessed ranger is actually a very
combat-centric hero, and her ability to heal her allies is heavily
reliant on her ability to stick to enemy heroes and lay down
damage. Featuring agility as a primary stat, abilities that boost
attack rate and damage, and a reset mechanic, the Blessed
Ranger is set to provide a high-action, micro-heavy play-style.
vCXJBhJ.jpg
Arcane Arrows: When activated, the next basic attack deals
5/10/15 + 2/2.5/3% of the target's maximum health bonus
damage. If the target is a hero, another arcane arrow is
immediately readied, and the Blessed Archer restores 15/20/25
mana.

Lasts 7 seconds.
AdMa6iP.jpg
Forrestwalk: Passively grants 8/10/12 bonus agility while
within 500 of a live tree. Additionally, Forrestwalk provides
vision over trees and cliffs.
s9EKiug.png
Holy Sigil: For 6/7/8 seconds, the target allied non-hero unit
is marked with a holy sigil. When the Blessed Ranger deals
damage, marked units within 1000 of her are healed for
50/60/70% of the damage dealt.
Ui8kste.png
Sigil of Dexterity: The Blessed Ranger concentrates her
arcane energy, doubling her attack speed for 10 seconds.
During this time, the Blessed Ranger's basic movement orders
dash to the targeted point (1000 range max).
[TD]
[TD]
[TD]
 

Attachments

  • THW.HC7.Cokemonkey11.w3x
    216.8 KB · Views: 63

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492
I'd like to give my thoughts & get some understanding about the Judging. I'm grateful for you guys taking the time to do so in the first place; I look forward to your responses.


I have to admit... I was a little disappointed & even crestfallen to read your review of my entry. I mean, 14 out of 50?? That is literally 2nd worst, and quite dismal. It would be one thing if this was consistent across the rest of the opinion shared... But I consistently got high marks from the other two Judges, and nearly every person who voted!

What makes this even more painful is that, barring one or two others, if asked I would've given more weight to your opinion of anyone's! If asked (pre-Judging) whose opinion I cared about the most, it would've been yours. I was most excited for your offering to Judge, and like I said, knew you "needed no vouching".

On a side note, I'm not sure how I feel about you modifying the Judging Criteria. Not only from the standpoint of somewhat invalidating all the time & thought & discussion that went into creating the Criteria... But from the standpoint of standardization & equity between Judges. If each Judge felt free to modify the Criteria to their liking, why even have it? Voters may have the option to choose in what manner to vote, but Judges have an obligation to use the Criteria, out of fairness. If one feels they do not "cover all the bases"... Well, we have long months between Contests in recent past; plenty of time to discuss.

That being said, let's dive into it.

~~~
Softmints said:
Theme: 5/10
While the hero is a good lore fit for the Night Elves, the consistently poor visuals for his skills
fail to support the theme. I cast Fury of Nature, and there was no visual response, just an
eerie sound. Where are these “enraged” spirits? Spore Cloud showed no slow graphic on
affected enemies, while Preservation's missile is a speck of dust. I can barely see the graphic
for the hero's attack.
This is somewhat painful, as it is perhaps the one area in which I thought I had excelled. I generally put a lot (too much, some might say) of emphasis on the importance of Theme to a Hero; mixing elements, coming up with neat SFX, etc.

"A good fit"? At the risk of of sounding narcissistic, I'm not sure there is a better fit for the Night Elves (in an "Arch Druid"). I could see the complaint that the NE already have a "super nature caster" in the form of the Keeper of the Grove... Yet that's not what you complain about (& besides, I mixed equal parts "super Druid" & "guardian of emerald dream" to avoid it).

Poor visuals. Well, there are excuses & reasons (illegitimate and legitimate). It was difficult, given the lack of custom imports... Though this was a difficulty I willingly voted for & embraced. I attempted to use as little (i.e. next to none) of the SFX used in other races (since there's almost no overlap in the actual game), using almost entirely hidden or secret models/icons/etc for the projectiles & such. I feel I was actually quite inventive in this, but oh well... Specfically:
  • Fury of Nature: I was doing my best to ensure that the end-result was sufficiently distanced from it's "source material"; i.e. it didn't feel or look like some modded Locust Swarm (which, ultimately, it was). The primary method of 'distancing' was achieved by having the actual attackers as 'invisible dummies', circling right on top of the Hero; this gave their crackling, unused Faerie Fire attack projectiles the effect of appearing as if from the Hero himself, in a sort of "D&D Magic Missile" manner.
    Thus the spirits were intentionally hidden/not given a model; the importance was the swirling energies resulting from them. Perhaps a tooltip re-write would've been in order... But I fear if I gave the "spirits" more presence, you & others would complain that it was basically just Locust Swarm (understandably so). 'Between a rock & a hard place' is a tad apropos.
  • Spore Cloud... Was a challenge. I wanted something green, "spore-y", puffy & cloudy... And, following the source of inspiration (Beta Archdruid), nearly unnoticeable by the enemy. The actual "cloud" went through many iterations before I settled on one. Even still, it wasn't quite right, and ended up with an inventive solution; a passive, hidden Factory ability, spawning little Dummies given a re-sized Web-projectile model & the Wander ability. Voila, a purely-aesthetic addition that achieved the "Spore" look.

    Anyway, point is, there were graphics for the slowing effect. If you look (quite) closely, you'll see shimmering green rings (GreenRings.mdx, IIRC). It's a hidden model, useful for it's subtlety (& green-ness; both desired by me). Again, the effects were minimal & meant to be subtle; an opposing army should be (unpleasantly) surprised to happen upon one of the (long-lived) Spore Clouds
  • Preservation was great, I thought. Utilizing the un-used Barkskin effect, attached to most attachment points, resulted in a unique & flashy & obvious "frozen" effect, with (hopefully) the right amount of "spiritual"-ness to look exotic. Are you talking instead about the projectile (Healing Salve)? ... Yeah, it's pretty demure, I'll admit. Was it that problematic, though, given the compensation of the actual Buff's SFX? More importantly, who said it even needs a projectile? Plenty of spells don't have them, and if there's a spell of his that wouldn't, I'd point to Preservation. Perhaps I shouldn't have included one at all; but either way, a minimal one shouldn't be that big a problem.
  • No mention of Dreamscape; I was really enthused about the opportunities (both thematically/aesthetically/graphically, and mechanically/role-tastically/stylistically) presented by a "Dream Walk/Astral Projection/Dreamscape"-type ability. Specifically, the "cheat" of using two unused Campaign Hero models for the Hero; squeezing in the yak-mounted Malfurion as a suped-up, spirity-dream-guardian-version of the regular Hero/Malfurion. The rare Tome of Retraining SFX upon cast, the unused Aura of Blight SFX around the body, the shadowy Destroyer projectile SFX attached to the Yak-feet for trailer-effects, the Mana Flare on the spirit's chest to indicate closeness, the subtle Phase Shift on slowed enemies... No positive mention whatsoever. (I even had a neat-o jimmy-rig for the body; I wanted to make it so that players wouldn't accidentally select the (essentially useless) Mortal Coil when trying to select other units (especially the Spirit)... So I gave it a dummy-form of the passive Factory, which has a little-known side-effect of making the bearer un-selectable to group selections (can only be directly selected)!)
  • The Hero's attack 'projectile'... *sigh*, I was perhaps most proud of that. Or at least, proud of how I worked it in. Once again, utilizing the hidden MPQ models, I found these stabbing brown things... And realized it made perfect sense for a Druid to call on the roots of the earth to stab at his enemies! Granted, it was hidden in large buildings (& due to the brown, hard-to-see on units, as you pointed out)... But the pros (Lore & the resourcefulness) I felt outweighed the cons (visibility). I Suppose I should've made that more explicit. :<

To put things in perspective, I compared my score to the Theme score of other entries... And I did worse than entrants such as AngkySaputra ("elven shadow"??), Dalvengyr ("frost banshee" next to "frost lich") & Mythic ("evil living necromancer" next to "evil undead necromancer"). The same (5/10) as Shadow Fury (a "fiery (chaos?) orc general"?).

For the guy who intrinsically knew & followed your 'guidelines' of mixing two or more themes for proper Thematic cohesion, which is something perhaps half of the entrants did, I must admit I was expecting a bit more here. :<

Softmints said:
Role: 4/10
A slow/stun with an “immolation” ability makes sense, but the super-low 900 radius on the
ultimate means it's not really practical to do any chasing with those skills while ethereal. AoE
disables are something the Night Elves lack though, so the hero's motivation isn't bad. I
don't feel there was any justification for having a hero with 220 range instead of melee.
Granted much of a hero's "role" comes to fruition through their abilities, but I would've liked to see more of your thoughts on the 'whole package'; attributes, movespeed, etc etc.

Thing is, I tried to take all that into consideration from the get-go. This guy was designed in several ways to be a front-line support for the severely-lacking Night Elves. He's a support caster/tank. Not only do his spells benefit him in this Role (FoN is centered on him, dealing the most damage to the most targets when he is front & center -- Build 1 with FoN & Spore Cloud slows enemies who would try to reach/run away from him & his FoN damage; Build 2 with Preservation & FoN freezes enemies, allowing maximum damage & maximum troop positioning (though less frequently) (a handy thing for Night Elves))... but he has a high Strength (highest of any NE hero), and even his Attack Range (220, IIRC) was specifically chosen to be the shortest non-melee in the Night Elf race (treat him as sort of like the Spellbreaker; he's the ideal tank for when you don't have Treants, Mountain Giants or a Demon Hunter. He sits right up front with (slightly ahead of) the Huntresses & soaks the damage). That was all intentional. (the justification being that he is not the utter ideal tank; the Mountain Giant/Treants (or even Demon Hunter) are better for that. But he's a better tank than most, & I wanted him appropriately positioned. Also, points for Creativity; how many "short-ranged" Heroes are there?)

Now, I'll admit the problem with the Ultimate: It tried to do too much. You're right, a player might be thinking they can "chase", but the radius keeps them in. It wasn't meant to be a "chase" mechanic, though, but rather more like a "stay & defend" mechanic, with the Spirit being sort of the 'active arm', dealing damage & slowing & casting spells with impunity. Sort of like... Giving the player a 'beat-stick' to wave around for a while. : )

Thing is, I desperately wanted to squeeze both "Emerald Dream Zone"- and "Astral Projection"-type abilities, and did so, unfortunately, despite it kinda messing with the synergy of his Role. I had a good reason for it... But it kinda ruined things. See, you're right; he's tanking & supporting, and all of a sudden you get his Ultimate and BAM... You're no longer tanking. In fact, your simply surviving (the Spirit is effectively invincible, as Ethereal with Spell Immunity :p, the Body is super-strong & likely defended) & nuking (has all his spells & better mobility to cast them with, damages units by walking through them, etc). I realized this disjoint & tried to compensate by making the Mortal Coil still really tank-y (can take a lot of punishment, and will certainly intrinsically attract enemy attention so they can kill the Spirit)... But it wasn't really sufficient.

With 20/20 hindsight, what I should've done was remove the whole "Astral Projection" concept entirely, and focused completely on the "Dreamscape" bit. Keep the "channeling body" bit, but feature instead a host of Dream-creatures (maybe ghostly dream-things, or actual living creatures, or green dragons, or big faerie dragons, or even other druids, but most importantly Melee fighters) that would be 'pseudo-summoned' for the duration of the Channeling. The "body" would still "channel" (& killing the Spirits if killed, slowing enemies in a large area, standing still, etc), but now we'd actually have an extension of his existing Role (more Tanks to help Tank, and ones that are expendable to boot), while making sense Thematically (supreme ability to invoke the touch of the Emerald Dream upon the regular world, bringing with it a disorienting debuff for enemies and legions of Dream-creatures to support the Arch Druid). Bam. Is that more along the lines of what you were expecting/hoping/think should be there?

See, the thing was, I really wanted max out the "creativity" score (& test my own resourcefulness), and I realized I had the unique opportunity to use both the normal and mounted versions of Furion (especially neat, I hoped, given the "only in-game resources" constraint). When I tried to think of how best to do that, I realized that the "Emerald Dream" provided the way; what better way for a super-druid/e.dream-guardian to display his prowess than to mount a magical Dream-Yak and zip around, all ghostly & ethereal-like? Kinda hoping to pull what Chriz. pulled in Wc3C's 2nd Hero Contest with his self-mounting Orc hero. That entry was the star of the show in that respect, primarily due to that one simple thing.

But, that's what happens. You live & learn. : )

Softmints said:
Balance: 0/10
The hero has a 10 second AoE stun at level 1, for 120/110/100 mana.
...Aaaaand... That's it. Really? That's your justification for a debilitating 0 out of 10? A crippling blow for what is essentially (I would submit) a 'numbers' issue (i.e. balanced by a proper manipulation of OE values)?

I get it. I've made this mistake before; I'm notorious for "cool ideas, but miserable implementation when it comes to one teeny-tiny oversight that is totally over-/under-powered (re: my Goblin mini-race and the dreaded "Saboteurs"... My Nightwalker hero & the "Sign of the Bloodmoon" ultimate... etc). I'm working on it; it's not my strong suit. But should this one particular issue define the complete & overall failure of the whole?

Moreover, there's no mention made of anything else. I know my Fury of Nature was too powerful (not enough time/talent to balance it quite right), for example. Also, was Spore Cloud too subtle, to the point of being under-powered? The Ultimate, under-whelming as it might've seemed; was it not balanced? What about the attributes? Were(n't) they reasonable? There's just not a lot to go on here; again, I feel as if a small, fixable error (one you pointed out could be adjusted in other's) was hyper-focused upon until it drowned out all the other good (& bad) I'd done. :<

Also, I get that for a little over 100 mana, you get a 10sec AoE 'stun'. But what about the cooldown; 25 seconds isn't cheap. In fact, compared to the Tauren Chieftain's War Stomp (a comparable AoE 'stun' ability), which deals 25/50/70 damage in 250/300/350 area for 3/4/5 sec with a 6 sec cooldown, a targeted/ranged (better), non-damaging (worse) AoE 'stun' which stuns for 10 sec in a ~350 area with a 25 sec cooldown seems like a reasonable option (perhaps with a lower stun-time, but no farther than 7-9sec, probably)

Softmints said:
Creativity: 4/10
Using Parasite to spread spores is a nice concept, as was the ultimate, but I don't feel like
either really pushed any boundaries for the Night Elves.
Umm... Ok. I'm grateful you liked my usage of Parasite, and the Ultimate. Ironically, if I could the former's one of the few things I would change (since it's used by a neutral Creep & as aforementioned, I was striving diligently to avoid any overlap (icons, sfx, effect, buffs, etc)).

But also as aforementioned, this was one of the few areas that I was really trying to excel at. Your painful 4/10 only appears to take into account two of his abilities. I know the other two were 'basically' an AoE damage & an AoE stun, but they had their own little twists such that neither was truly seen elsewhere in the game. But more importantly, what about everything else? What about the loads of hidden SFX models & icons I used? What about the Proper Names? What about the Spirit's ability to "phase through" buildings (flying with ground-level flying height)? What about all that stuff I mentioned in my above response to [Theme]?
What about the Hero himself; using Malfurion, squeezing the DreamYak(TM) in there... Both Role-tastically (tanking/support caster) & Thematically ("nature-wielding druid" & "scion of Emerald Dream"), I felt this guy was unique (i.e. 'creative') to both the Night Elves and, to a lesser degree, the game itself!

I'm aware that much of my "vaunted" 'creativity' took the form of little OE workarounds & such that were invisible to the player (things like using Factory for it's "selective select-ability"... Or Wander & Locust on the little 'Spores' that were (also Factor-ied) out of the Spore Cloud so that they spun around... Or the crafty usage of "reverse HP regen" & a "positive HP Regen aura (set to only target a particular mix of characteristics (which this unit had, setting it apart))" to keep the Spirit "alive" in proximity to the Body... Or the usage of Storm,Earth,Fire for the ultimate, ensuring the Hero stays alive as long as the Body (or both) survive (as well as governing timed life & spawning distance & all that)... Or the usage of Freezing Breath & Tornado-Slow Aura & such for the various effects...). But even still.

I hate to sound petulant. But like I said, it's one of the few things I was really pouring a lot of heart & soul into, and it doesn't appear to have either been noticed or acknowledged.

Softmints said:
Coding: 0/10
This hero barely qualifies as coded, and the implementation was outright sloppy. Tooltips
were consistenly misleading (“summons a throng of spririts which deal over(!?) 10 damage
per second”) (how much more than 10?), there were no radius indicators despite 2 skills
(un)clearly affecting a circle, and the ultimate left me unable to do anything for 20 seconds
when the astral form died off. If I have to open the map file to figure out exactly how my skills
work, that's a really bad sign.
As aforementioned, I'm a little iffy on modding the Criteria, but at least here it made pretty good sense to (hard to see those issues being addressed elsewhere)

~Coding
That being said, I'll agree that the coding is minimal, to say the least. However, I ascribe to a school of thought along with Kam & others where I try to minimize the amount of Trigger Editor work I do, choosing instead to do most of my work in the Object Editor (workarounds & the custom/hidden abilities & the like). I feel that this keeps things running fast, and helps keep my abilities reasonable for the game-setting (e.g. "why give dummy casters/attackers an expiration timer (another call) when you can just give them negative HP regen?", or "why use triggers for a summon & try to keep track of it's proximity, when you can use a neat trick with a specialized Aura & HP to do the same?", etc)

But 0 pts? Absolutely nothing. Far be it from me to tell the Judges how to judge, but I'm always leery about extremes (see my response to Kam, especially). 10/10 is absolute perfection, literally nothing wrong & everything right. Conversely, 0/10 is utter failure. It's worse than rolling a 1 on a d20 in D&D. It denotes either absolute non-existence, or a complete & total failing of all that is being considered. It's swinging at the ball, & not only missing but clubbing the umpire in the head (who was the CEO of a massive philanthropic organization for blind orphanages, as well as the reincarnation of Buddha), and killing him. 0/10 is grounds for disqualification; it's the equivalent of saying "you didn't even try".

So by very virtue of the fact that I physically did complete the minimum requirements (i.e. 2 trigger-enhanced spells), I fail to see how this could warrant such a score. Moreover, I didn't just complete the minimum requirements; my coding was simple, straightforward, and easy to read/port/use. Furthermore, it was MPI and MUI (something many other contestants struggled with).

So it wasn't a lot of code. So it wasn't (v)Jass. So I still did, admittedly, make some errors (see Bannar's judging; he pointed out some things I failed to implement). Was that all worth a 0/10? With coding that was, I submit, Clean, Efficient, Robust, Reusable, MUI/MPI, I am pretty dumbfounded.

~Tooltips
I will admit, while I usually consider tooltips my forte (I can hear you chuckling all the way through the Internet.. >_<), I dropped the ball in a few places here.
- For FoN: I found that I couldn't quite predict exactly how much damage the summoned dummy-attackers would do, so instead of taking all the time to figure it out/standardize it, I found an average & just put it into the tooltip. Meh.
- For Preservation: Well, I can see why you'd say that (& you weren't the only one), but I was really trying to mirror/mimic the design of "original idea", which was Starcraft Brood War's Dark Archon's "Maelstrom". It's literally patterned after that in almost every way (targetting, effect, even the SFX (sorta; Cripple would've been closest but I was determined not to re-use SFX)). I suppose it would make sense as an AoE, but I was trying to make a faithful reproduction.
- For Spore Cloud: No idea. I guess I treated it more like a summon (which it technically was) than an AoE-affecting spell (which it more practically/truthfully was). My bad.
- For Dreamscape: To be honest, when I was doing that, I was literally down to the wire with minutes left before the deadline, so I expected some rightful flak as to my care & organization in that part of the aesthetics. Some good suggestions were made as to how I could've helped keep the player from inadvertently killing their Spirit (though the idea was, like several other Ultimates, to have the hero Channel for the full duration (unless killed, of course). That's basically all this is; a sort of "channeling" Ultimate. So you're not supposed to be able to "end it" (also, unfortunately, the way I did it there really isn't a good way of doing so with the way I made it work). So yeah, not ideal.

Softmints said:
Awesomeness: 1/5
The ultimate didn't feel like it let me do anything exciting with the ultimate's promised
mobility, and the hero generally being frustrating to use didn't help either.
Well, I know "Awexomeness" was the place for free subjectivity, and I would be a hypocrite if I criticized you for using it as you saw fit. However, it would be nice to know you didn't just look at the Ultimate & some of the spell issues when considering "awexomeness". I mean, was the Hero himself awexome? His theme, how he acted, what he did? Or was it all that much of a wash? :<

The Ultimate, as aforementioned, wasn't supposed to be about mobility, but was supposed to enhance his tanking role. Unfortunately, also as aforementioned, trying to split the difference between the two sources of inspiration ("dreamscape proper" and "astral projection") led to a dilution of both, so I understand your being nonplussed about it.

Softmints said:
Total: 14/55
The hero felt like a jumble of unrelated ideas, but suffered even more from its
implementation. To explain myself fully here:
Preservation's tooltip says it will stop enemy units from attacking or moving for 10
seconds. It does not say which units? I try to target the ground but it insists on an
enemy unit. So I find an enemy unit and cast, and the graphic applies to the enemy
units, but not all at once. What's going on? Is it bouncing? Is it a slow moving
projectile that I can't see? What is the radius? I have no idea who it's going to hit, or
what the logic is.
Opening the map, I see that you spawn 3 units at the target point, which apply a
freeze on attack (hence they don't all get frozen at once). But that's not represented at
all in-game! Both theme and coding took a big hit from this lack of thought for the
end-user. Lots to improve on.
If you're going to have a very distinctive ultimate like Dreamscape, you should be prepared to
build the hero around that more, and use abilities which can leverage the added mobility and
immunity to physical damage to accomplish something. Archdruid + Fury of Nature alone
isn't enough to get anything done, particularly since that skill can't focus fire one unit to
spawn more spores (the only use I could think of for it).
- "Jumble of unrelated ideas"? How, exactly? I tried pretty hard to engineer & design his 'co-sponsorship' (nature druid & dream warden) effectively. :<
- For Preservation: *checks WE* Alright, you got me. I coulda sworn I was more explicit about targeting... But alas, I did not. If I did, it would probably include some line about 'targeting a ground unit' and 'affecting an area around that target'. I would posit that all that other stuff (not all at once/bouncing/projectile/etc) is extraneous & not detailed in normal Blizzard tooltips (or rather, it's merely a result of the method I used to achieve the effect, and shouldn't be overly noticeable).
- For Dreamscape: Yeah, you are right. I pretty much discussed that one ad nauseam above, so I won't bore you. : )
~~~

I guess overall, I'd just really like to understand you & what you think a little more clearly. I remember reading your Judging for the first time; I read the "Preface" part to everyone and thought "alright, awexome, I've done almost everything on this list...". Then when I read my individual Judging, I was surprised, thinking "wait, what? yeah, ok, pretty much all of that is true... but what about the rest? Didn't I do anything right?". I'm not trying to guilt/convince you to make me your 'star pupil' with 10's all across the board; I know where I messed up, and to be honest, I'm just as uncomfortable with 10/10's (as you'll see in my remarks to Kam's Judging). I still respect your opinion & would like to think I could learn a lot from what you've done (though I focus more on Melee while you seem to have a focus on AoS's).

It's not perfect, but I thought it was... pretty good?



Bannar said:
Theme: A melee archdruid we got there. Interesting. Druids always fits well to nature-based races, which NE is one of. Nice composition of in-game icons and unique spells.
Preservation - misses disabled icon.
Fury of Nature - no indicator of actual buff, animation time is too short. The tooltip holds incorrect damage value.
Ultimate isn't finished. There is no way to end the spell, redundant icons, the values for ultimate could be higher (bonuses). Visual effect for "out of range" could be added e.g ethernal projection could start flashing red when reaching max distance. 8
Well thanks. I tried hard to get a good mix of icons & SFX & such to match the Theme.
- Good point on Preservation. Unfortunately I forgot my own Rule Amendment & didn't make a Disabled version (Blizzard didn't provide one, for some silly reason).
- Well, it's not really a 'buff', just like Locust Swarm isn't really a buff. It's a damage-dealing spell (centered on the Archdruid). - The animation-issue is one I was aware of. Actually quite frustrating; I figured I knew how to do things like that, but I just could not figure it out (I set the "spell animation names" to the "Stand Channel", but it would only do it once, kinda short-like). - How was the tooltip wrong? Or do you mean "not definitive"?
- Well, as I said to Kam, I finished the Ultimate in the final minutes before the deadline, so I expected to make some mistakes there. But "unfinished"? Ah dannae about that... About 'stopping', aren't there several Ultimates where the hero Channels for the full duration (unless killed, of course)? That's basically all this is; a sort of "channeling" Ultimate. So you're not supposed to be able to "end it" (also, unfortunately, the way I did it there really isn't a good way of doing so). The icons being the same... Meh, see above. Probably could've hidden them (though I wanted that (tooltip) info to be read by the player). "Flashing red" is an interesting idea... I'm not sure how I would've done it (sans triggers), but it's a good thought. And you say it was too weak? Do you mean 'higher values' for the AoE slow, or the "walk-thru" damage?

Bannar said:
Role: Melee fighter with caster-oriented theme. I'd say that there are some missconcepts here. Hero of yours has spells with decent cast range and is very potent when it comes to kiting, yet this is domain of range heroes which he is clearly not. Whatmore, his ultimative, although very unique, is designed for scout/hunter type of hero i.e prevent him from being at the front line. Kyrbi0, what have you done with his attack range values? :p 7
Well, not exactly. There are plenty of examples of caster-like melee warriors (Paladin, a "war cleric", a "battle medic"). This guy was designed in several ways to be a front-line support for the severely-lacking Night Elves. He's a support caster/tank. Not only do his spells benefit him in this Role (FoN is centered on him, dealing the most damage to the most targets when he is front & center -- Build 1 with FoN & Spore Cloud slows enemies who would try to reach/run away from him & his FoN damage; Build 2 with Preservation & FoN freezes enemies, allowing maximum damage & maximum troop positioning (though less frequently) (a handy thing for Night Elves))... but he has a high Strength (highest of any NE hero), and even his Attack Range (220, IIRC) was specifically chosen to be the shortest non-melee in the Night Elf race (treat him as sort of like the Spellbreaker; he's the ideal tank for when you don't have Treants, Mountain Giants or a Demon Hunter. He sits right up front with (slightly ahead of) the Huntresses & soaks the damage). That was all intentional.

Now, I'll admit the problem with the Ultimate: It tried to do too much. I desperately wanted to squeeze both "Emerald Dream Zone"- and "Astral Projection"-type abilities, and did so, unfortunately, despite it kinda messing with the synergy of his Role. I had a good reason for it... But it kinda ruined things. See, you're right; he's tanking & supporting, and all of a sudden you get his Ultimate and BAM... You're no longer tanking. In fact, your simply surviving (the Spirit is effectively invincible, as Ethereal with Spell Immunity :p, the Body is super-strong & likely defended) & nuking (has all his spells & better mobility to cast them with, damages units by walking through them, etc). I realized this disjoint & tried to compensate by making the Mortal Coil still really tank-y (can take a lot of punishment, and will certainly intrinsically attract enemy attention so they can kill the Spirit)... But it wasn't really sufficient.
With 20/20 hindsight, what I should've done was remove the whole "Astral Projection" concept entirely, and focused completely on the "Dreamscape" bit. Keep the "channeling body" bit, but feature instead a host of Dream-creatures (maybe ghostly dream-things, or actual living creatures, or green dragons, or big faerie dragons, or even other druids, but most importantly Melee fighters) that would be 'pseudo-summoned' for the duration of the Channeling. The "body" would still "channel" (& killing the Spirits if killed, slowing enemies in a large area, standing still, etc), but now we'd actually have an extension of his existing Role (more Tanks to help Tank, and ones that are expendable to boot), while making sense Thematically (supreme ability to invoke the touch of the Emerald Dream upon the regular world, bringing with it a disorienting debuff for enemies and legions of Dream-creatures to support the Arch Druid). Bam.
See, the thing was, I really wanted max out the "creativity" score (& test my own resourcefulness), and I realized I had the unique opportunity to use both the normal and mounted versions of Furion (especially neat, I hoped, given the "only in-game resources" constraint). When I tried to think of how best to do that, I realized that the "Emerald Dream" provided the way; what better way for a super-druid/e.dream-guardian to display his prowess than to mount a magical Dream-Yak and zip around, all ghostly & ethereal-like? Kinda hoping to pull what Chriz. pulled in Wc3C's 2nd Hero Contest with his self-mounting Orc hero. That entry was the star of the show in that respect, primarily due to that one simple thing.

But, that's what happens. You live & learn. : )

Bannar said:
Balance: Of the the best entries when it comes to balance. Perfect mana costs (the fury could have it's initial cost higher tho), nice damage scaling together with snare and root effects. You knew that hero doesn't need mass damage to be usefull and unique in his kit.
His scaling is very nice, mix of strength and intelligence fits well. This is how melee/caster types should be implemented.
My only concerns came from first spell's damage values, but it's AoE-ish kind of spell so there should be no worries in the long term. 10
- Well thanks. I must admit, I don't think I agree that FoN or Preservation are all that well-balanced; I'm bad at the numbers game, and I still feel that both of those are too strong (FoN not so bad, just a bit high on the damage... Preservation is really powerful, though, for a Lvl1 spell). But yeah, "mass damage" is not what it's all about. Kinda boring, IMO.
- Thanks.
- Thing about FoN being over-/under-powered is, it's very situational. In the early-game & in creeping (especially the first green creep camp), it's pretty overpowered, but against larger camps & enemy armies, it loses it's effectiveness. This is mainly due to the sheer number of targets; the player can't control the 'spirits', so maximizing damage means minimizing targets (It's a bit unique compared to other AoE DD spells in that way (kinda the opposite of things like Blizzard/Flamestrike)). Too many people makes the damage spread out enough to be less of a problem. I'm not sure if there's a good way to balance such an ability.

Bannar said:
Creativity: Melee druid with some wierd orientation - where is his range? Wierd sometimes equals uniqueness, this time I'm willing to agree with this.
Selfish voodoo spell together with spores and all the effects create crazy mix, however, they don't made hero useless. Stun effect, snare with addition of damage couple nicely with NE style of "hit and run" tactics. Might be especially usefull when combined with Warden and dryads which also benefit greatly from such tactics. 9
Thanks. As aforementioned, "Creativity" was one of the things I was angling for.

Bannar said:
Coding: Demo code :D It's for testing so no comments there.
There is almost nothing to judge, you surely could add more of it, consider handling the dummy abilities, providing bonus effects via code if object method results in incorrect timings etc. Coding some additional parts of spells would reduce the contrast between spells and improve some of the graphics.
(Casting unit) -> (Triggering unit)
(Owner of (...)) -> (Triggering player). This is not always true, but many events are generated strictly by players e.g spell castings, thus there is clear actions that comes from a player in order to perform given action. In such cases, we are save to use the faster native retrieving triggering player.
In the trigger related to your ultimate (Dreamscape), you could have stored references to units directly into local or global variables in order to prevent process of constantly repeating the reference statements. 4
Hm.
- Yeah, demo code. Had to have it. Hopefully it worked well.
- With the balance between Triggers & Object Editor stuff... Yeah, I suppose. But like Kam, I'm with those who hold that "the less I can do in the TE (& the more in the OE), the better". It's easier to work with & doesn't conflict with in-game stuff nearly as much. Graphics could definitely be improved that way, though.
- Why should one use "Triggering Unit" instead of "Casting Unit"? Isn't it better to use the more precise term ("triggering" could be anything, but for "unit casts a spell", you want to use "casting unit", right)?
- "Triggering Player", eh? Huh. Ok, so which spells should I generally use that for?
- True... But if I used local variables, I'd have to do all the crazy "cleaning/removing/garbage collecting", and if global, I'd have to have made a big ol' array to cover all the Player's worth of potential ArchDruids (or worse; hashtables!)... Easier to just avoid it. I was not under the impression that so few "calls" was a problem for a Trigger. I couldn't have called him more than a half-dozen times...

Bannar said:
Awesomeness: Funny hero, unique and wierd in some way. The concept seems to be a combination of 2 themes coupled together because author was unsure which one to choose. Anyway, I had fun playing and testing him. You could have choosen differend icons for some spells e.g paw buff icon could be replaced with Dark Ritual one, which even matches spell graphics. So many colours, lol. 5
- Thanks
- Well, the "concept" (Theme) was a combination of (at least) 2 core ideas ("nature-wielding druid" & "scion of Emerald Dream") because that's the ideal way to design Heroes. Many of the best in-game Heroes are designed this way, and it ensures a proper admixture of Thematic components. Dark Ranger (banshee/necromancer/ranger), Paladin (warrior/priest), Pandaren Brewmaster (monk/brewer), Goblin Tinker (mechs/explosives), Lich (necromancer/ice-wizard), Shadow Hunter (good juju/bad mojo), Demon Hunter (warrior/demon)... Etc.
So intentionally I chose those two to create the ideal Theme for an Archdruid (this was especially important because I was adding, essentially, a 2nd Druid to the Night Elf line-up; had to make sure it was different/unique enough to stand out). FoN & Spore Cloud were the more "druid-y" abilities, while Preservation & Dreamscape were definitely the "dream-y" ones. In fact, I was worried it would be too subtle (i.e. people not getting where Preservation or FoN came in).



Kam said:
Theme: Clearly a Night Elf caster. The ability cohesion here is good particularly between Preservation and Fury of Nature. Dreamscape is a pleasure to use.
10/10

Role: All of these abilities have the chance to interact with each other in different useful ways. Dreamscape extends the idea of a ranged caster in a literal sense.
10/10

Balance: Dreamscape could have been a real nightmare but you've created a good balance by forcing the Archdruid to remain stationary. I'm not sure the duration on Spore Cloud is working correctly, it lasts more than 20 seconds at level 3. I also don't think Toadstools should be permanenet. Enemy players need to be able to counter them. Right now all one can do is avoid them and they don't seem to have a timed life.
8/10

Creativity: Preservation is fairly simple but is integrated well into the spell set. Fury of nature I have seen in similar forms but never exactly like this. I would not have guessed Dreamscape was based on Storm, Earth, and Fire. Sporer Cloud, depsite the issues, is a unique spell. The threat of a unit producing a toadstool forces a player to make that unit retreat thus removing a unit from combat.
9/10

Coding: Extremely simple for what your spells do. This is wonderful for map makers as any time I can avoid using code heavy abilities that may conflict I do.
10/10

Awesomeness:
4/5

Total:
51

Additional:
-Fury of Nature, Preservation, and Spore Cloud should share the same button locations on the Astral projection.
-The Mortal Coil has two dummy abilities based on Unholy item and Clockwerk that should be in a disabled spellbook.
-It would be nice if when Dreamscape is cast it moved unit selection to the Astral Projection.
-Preservation should have an area indicator instead of a target point.
Theme: Thanks, though a perfect 10/10??
Role: Gratzi. (10/10? I'm certain I didn't do that well :p)
Balance: No, the Toadstools don't have timed life; they were intended to last forever. Basically the hope/idea is that the Night Elf player would end up with a vast, plausibly-map-spanning network of these little, forgettable fungi, giving them a big edge in seeing enemy movements late-game. Could plausibly encourage an enemy to take non-standard routes in order to avoid that.
Dreamscape... I'm fairly certain it wasn't fully balanced, but I tried; thanks.
I'm surprised you didn't say anything about Fury of Nature (which I was sure was too powerful at Lvl1) or Preservation (same deal, only worse).
Creativity: Thanks for noticing. : ) This is perhaps the biggest thing I tried to push in my entry (creative/resourceful/innovative design & construction). It's at nearly every layer; not only in the spells (how they're made/work) but in how some of their affects are achieved (the Mortal Coil's "selective untargettability", the way I managed to make the "spores" on the Spore Cloud, the way I kept the Astral Projection alive via proximity to the Mortal Coil, etc etc), as well as the Hero itself (attack range, stats, move-type in Astral Projection-form, etc).
Coding: Yeah, it is pretty simple (surprised I didn't lose more points for that, actually...). Your 2nd line is exactly my modus operandi; the more I can do in the OE (& the less in the TE), the better. "OE Workarounds" are kinda my bag. : ) (case in point: I can give my Dummy Casters a "generic expiration timer" to kill them off after a set time... Or I can avoid an extra call/line of code & merely give them negative HP regen & a set amount of HP. "timed life", fo' sho')
Awexomeness: I appreciate the high score, but I'm curious: why? Why was it awexome to you (& conversely, what was lacking that could've made it "perfectly awexome"? :p).
Additional:
- They don't? Dang, that's dumb.
- Wellllll..... I wanted the player to see them & know they were there (especially the bit about "don't move the Spirit too far!"), but I can see why you'd say that. To be honest, when I was doing that, I was literally down to the wire with minutes left before the deadline, so I expected some rightful flak as to my care & organization in that part of the design.
- That's a great idea. Why didn't I think of that?
- Well, I can see why you'd say that (& you weren't the only one), but I was really trying to mirror/mimic the design of "original idea", which was Starcraft Brood War's Dark Archon's "Maelstrom". It's literally patterned after that in almost every way (targetting, effect, even the SFX (sorta; Cripple would've been closest but I was determined not to re-use SFX)). I suppose it would make sense as an AoE, but I was trying to make a faithful reproduction.
Total: Well, I'm really grateful for your time & thoughts, looking into my entry. I must admit, while I'm gratified to top your personal list, I'm a little surprised; I really don't think I did that well. I got some (many?) things right, I hope, but there are some definite problems in it as well.
Meh, guess I shouldn't complain. But still.


Now, not like it's any of my business, but a few thoughts:
Kam said:
Role: My take is that the Artificer is a disruptive magic unit but that is not clear. Energize is throwing off the ability cohesion.
Hm, really? I always saw her more as a "supportive caster". (Nearly) Everyone's got a way to deal (direct) Damage (i.e. Charged Bolt), but then both Energize and Static Shield enhance the utility of your troops (support). Lightning Coil is a simple summon/DPS addition (more damage -> support).

Kam said:
Energize is interesting but I wonder why it affects enemy units and how it can be used in combat or in moving units across the map since the affected area is so small.
Well, I suppose that's probably because it wasn't designed around "moving troops across the map", but rather "moving troops around in a battle". It's meant (AFAIK) to give a player better opportunity to micro, moving/kiting/leading their troops around an enemy, manipulating movespeed.

Kam said:
Lightning Rod is too powerful. It deals Chaos damage and has 1000 HP/6 Fortified armor. If placed correctly behind an attacking force it decimates base defenders.
I suppose... But it's stationary, so if not placed right, then it's basically useless. Compare to other Summoning Ultimates (Infernal: spell resistant, immolation, loads of damage & tanking - Phoenix: loads of dps, ranged support, "never" dies - Tornado: loads of disrupt, good for siege - Doom Guard: tons of nasty damage & debuff spells, powerful tank, kills a unit to exist - Storm,Earth,Fire - lots of utility (3 units), one-man-army (tank-DPS-caster), plausible Hero invulnerability (run one back, Hero can't 'die') - Animate Dead: lots of tanking, invulnerable, steals corpses - etc...)
I won't claim it's perfect, but it does make sense for it to be very powerful (i.e. strong), in order to compensate for it's relative lack of utility & mobility.

Kam said:
Role: This would be better suited as a melee strength hero. His abilities rely on enemy units being close, and Feeding direclty encourages this.
I guess... But then not only would he not play as nice with the regular Dreadlord, but he would do the same for the entire Undead faction (e.g. too many melee Heroes crowding around in close-range combat). Out of 4 Heroes they already have 3 Melee Strength heroes; they seriously don't need another. Such a Hero would've/should've lost a good number of points for "originality/fitting to the race".

Kam said:
Theme: An archer could fit with Humans but it is clear that in WC3 Gnomes have taken over the Human ranged combat area. Upgrades are all for powder weapons.
...? Heroes don't benefit from upgrades? Also, someone has lost touch with Wc3 Beta. : ) The Elven Ranger was probably really hard to cut (just sort of an Elven (i.e. Alliance) standby). One of (what I considered the) prime ideas for this Contest was an Alliance (Elven) Ranger, if only for the presence of the Sylvanas model.

Kam said:
Balance: Arcane Arrows is too powerful. It is essentially a variant of Doom in how quickly it can maim a unit. In its current form Holy Sigil is difficult to use. It has a low cooldown but your window to deal damage is only 8 seconds. For a single target ability that is not enough time. I would like to see it be an AoE.
Totally agree on that bit about Holy Sigil. I was/am definitely not talented enough to make that work in any way.

Kam said:
...Forrestwalk seems much more a Night Elf bonus than Human. I understand the connection to a Ranger but it is too out of line with Human skill sets.
I can see how it's very Night-Elven... But IMO it fits nearly as well for a High Elf as well (heck, they essentially 'descended' from Night Elves; lots of cultural overlap). Remember the RoC Undead Campaign, Arthas storming through Quel'thalas? A "forest ranger"-style Sylvanas totally jives with me.

Also, there are more than Humans in the Alliance, so I'm not sure what is meant by "Human skill sets". Is Storm Bolt or Avatar too out of line with Human skill sets? Similarly with Mana Drain or Phoenix?

Kam said:
Coding: I can see no issues here but I am lacking in advanced coding skills. As with Kyrbi0 I would suggest reducing the required libraries if possible.
Whoops, I think you meant "Dalvengyr" here (judging by your Judging :p)... All I know about a library is that it's where you can loan out books. xD

(Kidding, obviously I know what a (coding) library is.)

Footman16 said:
Theme: The link to Human is dubious.
??? I'm sorry, but how in the world is a Human, leading troops into glorious combat, using the Garithos model, not a perfect fit for the Humans (thematically)? It's coherence in terms of Role could be argued, but Thematically I thought it was spot-on. That was my 2nd-place-pick for "best Human hero"; a Garithos-using "Grand Marshal"/"Crusader"/etc.

angkysaputra said:
Theme: There is a clear design direction towards a disruptive melee hero meant to be thrown into combat and confuse enemy players.
9/10

Role: I am partial to heroes that could fit into the timeline after the events of TFT. The Elven Shadow reflects both the former glory of the Night Elves and the remnant state they existed in after losing their eternal power source.
I think you switched the descriptions for "Theme" and "Role" on this one. Things like "design direction", "disruptive melee hero" & info on combat roles would go under "Role", while "fit into timeline", and info on the story/characterization behind the Hero would go under "Theme".

Rufus said:
Theme: This should have been a Night Elf hero. The abilities work together, but not as well as they could if Drawback behaved correctly. Additionally the idea of an archer with four arrow based abilties is somewhat overdone.
It could easily have been a Night Elf hero (using the Shandris model (another one I thought would be snapped up quickly (surprised that it wasn't (well it didn't have Hero Glow... (but an entrant could add it)))))... But then it would have clashed Thematically with the Priestess of the Moon. PotM's already a "paragon of archers" Hero with lots of Ranged DPS/Support-elements... including a "super-archer" would just be stepping on toes (rather then doing so for the Humans, who are Thematically devoid of such a character).

Why, it'd be almost as bad as trying to shoehorn in a second Druid-character into the Night Elves... :D


Thanks again for your time. Looking forward to the next one. : )
 
Level 14
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
209
Foreword: None of this is intended to be offensive or personal, I am being honest and write in the hope that it will help you understand my perspective, and help you learn.


I'm not sure how I feel about you modifying the Judging Criteria.

The balance category in the contest is described as:

"Includes how well the hero's Theme, & Role fit into the melee environment in terms of balance, theme, style, complicatedness, and so forth. Overpowered or Underpowered Heroes will result in a poor score; properly balanced elements will mean a good score."
I decided to address theme/role exclusively in their own categories, rather than polluting the mark for balance with them and causing marks to be lost/gained/explained twice. I feel that was a fair choice, and not contradictory to the criteria.

For theme, I placed a heavier emphasis than perhaps would have been expected on how well the theme was presented/implemented. But this is justified: theme is a unifying idea for the hero, and if there aren't unifying/cohesive visual elements, then the theme suffers.

Under role, most of my comments addressed whether a hero was "well-constructed", as any well-constructed hero will naturally settle into a role (providing there's no overlap within the race). Shadow Fury got my weakest mark here, since the hero has four AoE nukes. Sure it's effective, but the poor construction I described makes it unclear what the hero should be used for. Conversely, Wa666r and Cokemonkey11 got 10 (for construction), and equivalently their heroes' collective set of abilities do a great job conveying purpose to the player.

"A good fit"? At the risk of of sounding narcissistic, I'm not sure there is a better fit for the Night Elves (in an "Arch Druid").

An arch druid is a good fit for the Night Elves. It would be strange for me to applaud this any further, as though an arch druid was the most amazing fit I'd ever seen.

I mixed equal parts "super Druid" & "guardian of emerald dream"

There wasn't enough distinction between them in practice, as though you were mixing "fire" and "heat". You needed to execute this better.

I attempted to use as little (i.e. next to none) of the SFX used in other races(...) using almost entirely hidden or secret models/icons/etc for the projectiles & such

Most of those models are hidden because they're awful. Despite the lengthy justifications, they failed in doing their job. Every single ability was missing appropriate visual cues to the player. I could not understand or use the hero.

Get your priorities straight. The player, readability, and usability come first. "Lore" and "subtlety" and "perfect sense" and "rare/unused" are the icing on top.

To put things in perspective, I compared my score to the Theme score of other entries... I must admit I was expecting a bit more here. :<

Those heroes didn't excel at theme, so they got average marks. You actively failed, by having abilities with poor enough attention to visual cues to break a player's immersion.

Granted much of a hero's "role" comes to fruition through their abilities, but I would've liked to see more of your thoughts on the 'whole package'; attributes, movespeed, etc etc.

I didn't pay much attention to these in general, since I assumed no-one is going to mess them up. For those heroes which did have problems (such as poor build options), I pointed it out and deducted marks.

With 20/20 hindsight, what I should've done (with the ultimate) was...

Is that more along the lines of what you were expecting/hoping/think should be there?

There's too many ways to improve a hero for me to have specific ideas. It would depend on the direction you wanted to take.

See, the thing was, I really wanted max out the "creativity" score (& test my own resourcefulness)

Gimmicks like the 220 attack range when melee would have been fine make it look like you're trying too hard. Don't add unnecessary exceptions.

...Aaaaand... That's it. Really? That's your justification for a debilitating 0 out of 10?

I'm here to judge what's put in front of me. Other entries lost marks for shaky balance as well, but Presevation is irredeemably game-breaking. War Stomp is not even a close comparison.

I could have discussed how the Archdruid fit the Night Elves like I did with most other entries, and maybe I would have felt there were a few marks to be had. But honestly? After a frustrating experience with trying to figure out the abilities and then seeing the numbers on the stun, I wasn't willing to invest any further time on it.

What about the loads of hidden SFX models & icons I used? What about the Proper Names? What about(...)
I'm aware that much of my "vaunted" 'creativity' took the form of little OE workarounds & such that were invisible to the player(...)

I hate to sound petulant. But like I said, it's one of the few things I was really pouring a lot of heart & soul into, and it doesn't appear to have either been noticed or acknowledged.

I awarded marks for creative heroes, not creative implementations or looking up lists of hidden resources. Archdruid's abilities include an immolation variant and an AoE stun, with two others that are interesting but lack direction.

I'm not sure why "creative implementations" is even on the marking scheme. I'm supposed to award marks for good coding in one section, and the most roundabout possible implementations via object editor in another?

~Coding(...)

Having looked through all the entries, I decided to de-emphasise "programming", and focus on "implementation". I have discussed in detail that your implementation was both frustrating and misleading in ways I wouldn't have even thought possible. It really is 0/10.

I mean, was the Hero himself awexome? His theme, how he acted, what he did?

The hero was not awesome, nor was it average. It was actively irritating to use. It didn't execute an idea well. We've been through this.

"Jumble of unrelated ideas"? How, exactly?

You have a melee hero with ranged abilities, one of which works worse in melee range (Fury of Nature focuses fire less when near more units), and an ultimate which doesn't fit or synergise at all. There is no consistency of theme or purpose across the abilities.

I guess overall, I'd just really like to understand you & what you think a little more clearly.

Firstly, your priorities were/are muddled. Your abilities had roundabout implementations with weird side-effects, inconsistent behaviours, and poor visual cues. You repeatedly compromised the player experience, in the name of "using hidden resources", "avoiding the trigger editor", "resourcefulness", or "creativity". I can tell you were enthusiastic about being super-crafty when putting Archdruid together. But craftiness for the sake of craftiness is not going to produce a good hero. Good principles, such as focusing on clarity, elegance, and usability, will.

Secondly, your design lacked direction. If you're aiming for a plane-swapping hero, make a hero about that. If you're aiming for a viral/plague hero in the vein of Spores, make a hero about that. If you're making a frontline tank, go ahead and do it. But Archdruid tries to be all of these things, and ends up being none of them. All the best entries had a clear purpose and executed on it.

I am entirely sincere in judging that you had the second-worst entry. The other judges not identifying this came as a surprise to me.

If you are serious about design, start thinking about why you're doing what you're doing. If you don't know: ask, research, or experiment until you do. And you will have to keep trying, keep making heroes, and learn by doing. That you are willing to engage with this discussion and ask for clarification is a really good thing.

(...)I focus more on Melee while you seem to have a focus on AoS.

The AoS genre has pushed hero design far more than any other, and the relevant design skills are transferable. I don't think my judging suffered too much from my lack of melee experience.
 
Last edited:
Level 4
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
61
Haven't been looking here and wouldn't have noticed anything was amiss if I had, so thanks for pointing it out to me, Kyrbi0.

Here's my entry. I've lost the write-up(s) for her and don't currently have the mental wherewithal to do it again so, hope it's fine to just leave it here.
 

Attachments

  • THW.HC7.Cosmicat.w3x
    157.5 KB · Views: 70

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492
Direfury, Shadow Fury, and Rufus, your map needs to be (directly) attached to the post itself.

Thanks all for such a rapid response!

//EDIT//


Softmints said:
Foreword: None of this is intended to be offensive or personal, I am being honest and write in the hope that it will help you understand my perspective, and help you learn.
Don't worry; I refuse to be offended in a situation like this. : ) Doesn't help anything.
I feel, however, that I should preface some of my comments with a few things:
  • Some of your points regard the Criteria and their capacity to effectively "cover all the bases". Suffice it to say that the Criteria were painstakingly discussed & debated & tinkered with, and while I wouldn't dare imply we've reached 'perfection', I daresay we did a pretty good job of doing exactly that (avoiding overlap, etc). If you disagree(d), I would highly encourage you to join these discussions in the future to further discuss & streamline & 'play-test' these Criteria.
    I'd love to point to one particular post where it all came together (this overly-massive post of mine contains some nuggets in the middle-bits), but in truth it percolated throughout the discussion. However, in the interest of time I'll run through it quickly here:
    Basically we have come to feel that the two great elements contribute to good Hero design: Theme (aesthetics, lore & background, 'the BE', etc) and Role (mechanics, gameplay, 'the DO', etc). It is equally important to have a thoughtful, unique & interesting Theme as it is a robust, practical and useful Role; a cohesive mesh between the two is what makes great Hero design. (An example of failed Theme would be a Pyromancer with ice spells. An example of failed Role would be a melee-tank-guy with all Healing spells.) The classic Wc3 Heroes are great examples of these; a brawny undead insectoid monarch (T) who repels & soaks damage (R); a lithe vengeful Night Elf jailer (T) with strategically offensive & disabling powers (R); etc.
    That makes up the first bit, what I would call "the Idea". Then comes the Implementation (since this Contest, being not simply an Idealist Contest, must needs involve some actual world-editor work & the ensuing issues). For one can have excellent Theme & Role, but still have an Imbalanced Hero, right? "Balance" therefore was brought about; the numbers and such. However, it's more than that; given that Theme & Role were to be Judged "in isolation", effort should be made to consider how the Theme & Role of this Hero fit into the overall grand scheme of things (i.e. their particular faction, the game as a whole). For example, an entrant could create a malevolent Undead frost wizard (T) with ranged assault & defensive capabilities (R) for the Scourge. But then all of his abilities can OHKO opposing armies & bases. That's bad Balance (both on the 'numbers' bit & the 'overall fittingness' bit). Thus Balance was designated not simply as "the numbers" (over-/under-poweredness of the Hero), but also how well the Theme & Role fit cohesively with the whole.
    Then comes Creativity. Again, a similar mental exercise is illustrative. Can an entrant create a Hero that has excellent Theme, excellent Role, and excellent Balance? Sure For example, an entrant could take a fantastic Theme (powerful hammer-wielding champion of the Light) and a useful Role (melee defensive support & healing), make a great Human hero... But they would've basically re-created the Paladin, for the Alliance. That would be bad. So the Criteria entry called "Creativity" comes into play; how "Creative" (unique/original/innovative/resourceful/imaginative/etc) was the entry? Did it bring something new to the table (both racially & for the game overall)?

    Now granted, this one is a hard one; it is almost innately Subjective (when we're really striving for Objectivity in general). Also, it takes a certain mindset (which I espouse): There really is nothing truly "new" in the world; creatio ex nihilo is a myth that ancient scholars tried too hard to prove false. Everything is made out of bits and pieces of other, earlier things, either materially (i.e. geomerging from Wc3 models, or scratch-modeling from primitives) or idealistically (i.e. the ideas behind it). Nothing is truly new; it's the unique/original/etc combination of existing elements that results in what we would call "Creativity". (Is an "night elven arch druid" really all that unique? Or an "elven ranger", or an "orcish fire-warlord", or an "undead death-mage" or a "demonic manipulator" or a "human magitek" or a "elven sorceress" or a "human pirate-captain" or anything we made truly "new"? Naw. But it's all in how we put them together. And in whether it's "new" for the game of Wc3, as well)

    //NOTE// - Your comments have helped me to realize that as Creativity is currently understood, it would perhaps fit better under "Idea" rather than "Implementation". That's something I think we'll change for future Contests; granted it's just a label, but it's a bit more proper.

    So cool. We have the perfect entry; 10/10 in Theme, Role, Balance, & Creativity. There is at least one more Objective thing to consider; how well it is Coded. This falls similarly under Implementation. Because despite you having the "perfect" entry, if your Coding is all messed up (laggy, buggy, non-MPI/MUI, clunky, etc), it is demonstrably poorer than a similar entry with good Coding. Thus the Criteria of Coding.

    Finally, we come to the final Criteria, "Awesomeness". All along the way, we recognized that Objectivity is merely an ideal, subjected to the lens of Subjectivity (i.e. we want everything to be as Objective as possible, but this very Contest is a good example of how different the perceptions of these Criteria can be). However, we strive to encourage an environment where only Objective decisions are made & Judged upon.

    That being said, we found it appropriate to grant a sort of "outlet" for the naturally-occurring Subjectivity in each of the Judges. This was the "Awesomeness" category. "How cool overall did you feel this Hero was?" It didn't grant a lot of points in comparison to the other Criteria (& rightfully so), but it was a way for Judges to give that final, "overall" stamp of (dis)approval on each entry, give their personal thoughts outside the confines of a particular Criteria (i.e. Role, or Balance).

    Maybe that was unwise. But it seemed like a good idea at the time.


    Those were small sampling of the many thoughts swirling around about this subject. Doubtless you have your own interpretations, which I'd be grateful to hear/discuss (probably somewhere else, though, so we don't keep gumming up the thread).

    But all that being said, it just goes to show that these things were designed this way for a reason, and not to be bandied about or altered due to preference. Now it's too "close to home" (& really not ultimately important, in a cosmic sense) for me to ask you to go through the rigmarole of changing it or re-Judging or anything like that. However, imagine your feelings if a Contest you were running featured on of the chosen Judges modifying the Criteria for his own needs/interpretations? Your doing so in good faith/with good intentions is perhaps the only saving grace.
  • What are your thoughts on the existing, standard, 'melee' Warcraft 3 Heroes from RoC & TFT? How well do you feel they 'match up' in terms of the heroes of this Contest? Are there some that are better than others (which ones)? Do you feel that the Warcraft heroes (or some of them (which ones?)) evidence good (game) design? Do you feel the patterns described or implied by these Heroes can/should have some impact on others striving to create additions to that universe? Do you feel Contests such as this (particular one), with the above as the stated goal, are good/preferable to other kinds?

Softmints said:
An arch druid is a good fit for the Night Elves. It would be strange for me to applaud this any further, as though an arch druid was the most amazing fit I'd ever seen.
I suppose... Though I guess I was/am confused as to how "5/10" equates to "applauding" (Unless, horrifyingly, you were essentially awarding half of Theme to that (with "full marks", 5/5) and the other half to the implementation (with "full demerits", 0/5)).

Softmints said:
There wasn't enough distinction between them in practice, as though you were mixing "fire" and "heat". You needed to execute this better.
Hm, I'm curious. I don't see how "nature druid & emerald dream" equate to "fire & heat". If anything, your later remarks seem to indicate that the thematic elements were too disparate, rather than too alike. My thoughts were similar; I was confident about the Idea of mixing the two, but unsure as to my Implementation of such.

What are some suggestions you have to this effect? I thought the two aforementioned "builds" were sort of a good enough differentiator (due to mana usage, a player was likely to select either FoN & Spore Cloud (Nature-Nature), or FoN & Preservation (Nature-Dream), with the Ultimate being strongly Dream-oriented).

Softmints said:
You have a melee hero with ranged abilities, one of which works worse in melee range (Fury of Nature focuses fire less when near more units), and an ultimate which doesn't fit or synergise at all. There is no consistency of theme or purpose across the abilities.
My response to this is somewhat colored/dependent on my/your answer to my second preface bullet, so please let me know.

- In the meantime, I will nutshell by saying that I believe that the standard Warcraft heroes are, in general (with some notable exceptions & a reasonably wide spectrum) evidence of excellent game design & worthy of emulating & Contesting over.

When I take a look at these Heroes, then, for identifying patterns, I find that among the main 4 factions' Melee Heroes, there are 16 out of 32 abilities which are primarily ranged in nature (i.e. not including things like Thunder Clap, which are arguably "melee-esque" or "affecting primarily close/melee-range fighters"). That's half. Among the Neutral/Tavern Heroes it's even worse/better; 13 out of 20.

This was a quick count, and doubtless my opinion of what constitutes a "melee" or "ranged" ability would differ from yours. But suffice it to say, I would consider "Melee hero with ranged abilities" as a compliment, not an epithet.


For purposes of comparison, I will point out the Goblin Tinker. This guy is a prime example to me of "good/creative Hero design" on the part of Blizzard; a sort of trope-reversal with a Melee Intelligence hero. He acts as a sort of Tank despite his inferior Strength (& emphasis on Intelligence). The whole Hero is designed in a way to allow him to "tank"; his relatively-high Strength-for-a-Int/Caster, his high speed & armor, etc. All of his abilities (half of which are "ranged", by the way) aid in some way his ability to "tank" despite being Intelligence; Cluster Rockets can Stun possible attackers (the damage is secondary), Pocket Factory provides more bodies & distraction for creeps, Engineering Upgrade not only enhances all his abilities, but increases his Movespeed and damage (= greater threat). Finally, Robo-Goblin is a culmination of all that; massive, burly, Mechanical (immune to most disables/spells/hero-kills), with a boost to Strength & Armor.

While I recognize the areas where I messed up royally (e.g. Preservation's bad balance, lacking aesthetics for some spells, confusing/non-Role-enhancing Ultimate, etc), I tried to follow that same paradigm, with a "Melee" (short-ranged) Intelligence hero that is crafted from the ground up to handle "Tanking" (that being the Role I ordained for him)


- FoN... Does admittedly have that effect. I considered that about as much as I considered it's utility against small groups vs. armies (which is to say, not at all until after the effect). I would like to think about how that could be re-worked...
- As aforementioned, I've realized my sins with the Ultimate. I think it's salvageable, but currently too confused between "Dreamscape" proper and "Astral Projection"
- Again, not giving up an inch of ground... I have contended & will contend that there was synergy of Theme and Role across at least some of the abilities. They all followed the "Arch Druid" theme (either 'nature warrior' or 'emerald guardian'), and things like Preservation/Spore Cloud enable his Tanking (slowing/disabling attackers is a prudent strategy).


Softmints said:
Most of those models are hidden because they're awful. Despite the lengthy justifications, they failed in doing their job. Every single ability was missing appropriate visual cues to the player. I could not understand or use the hero.

Get your priorities straight. The player, readability, and usability come first. "Lore" and "subtlety" and "perfect sense" and "rare/unused" are the icing on top.
~~~
Firstly, your priorities were/are muddled. Your abilities had roundabout implementations with weird side-effects, inconsistent behaviours, and poor visual cues. You repeatedly compromised the player experience, in the name of "using hidden resources", "avoiding the trigger editor", "resourcefulness", or "creativity". I can tell you were enthusiastic about being super-crafty when putting Archdruid together. But craftiness for the sake of craftiness is not going to produce a good hero. Good principles, such as focusing on clarity, elegance, and usability, will.
I think here we can really agree. You have helped me realize that, while I do attempt to focus on those aspects (readability, clarity, usability, elegance, etc), I really failed (in this entry) to live up to that, eschewing it for a craftiness that was for it's own sake. I was really trying hard to impress, I suppose, with every little ounce of creative-craft-itude I could muster, and that got in the way of the more important considerations.

I suppose I would differ on saying that "Lore" is merely 'icing'. "Lore" I stick with "Theme", and (good) "Theme", to me, is one of the fundamental considerations/foundations of (good) hero Design. More on that later.

"Every single ability ... missing ... visual cues"?? I get how FoN was, or the buffs for the Spore Cloud, but Preservation was pretty flashy, and darned if Dreamscape wasn't appropriately full of SFX...

Softmints said:
The AoS genre has pushed hero design far more than any other, and the relevant design skills are transferable. I don't think my judging suffered too much from my lack of melee experience.
We might just have to agree to disagree, as while I appreciate that the AoS/MOBA genre has done pushed hero design very far, I'm not sure I agree with it being a good thing.

Or perhaps better stated; AoS heroes are fundamentally different from RTS Heroes, not only in their underlying gameplay-design but even somewhat the aesthetics & other considerations. Controlling one singular entity and a few other resources in a team-setting is vastly different from controlling a whole host of entities (of which the Hero is but one among many) with a wider variety of resources. The Hero in an AoS essentially stands alone, while the Hero in an RTS acts as one part of a greater whole. As one example, the relative complexity of the Heroes is illustrative; most of Wc3's Heroes would just be too simple for DotA, and the opposite is true for DotA -> Wc3. The most 'complex/confusing' Wc3 Hero (arguable, but I'd point to the Firelord or the Warden probably) isn't anywhere as crazy as, say, Invoker or Mercurial. And the simplest DotA hero (again arguable, but plausibly Lina or Leoric or something) is still more complex than, say, the Tauren Chieftain (2 actives that deal DD, 2 passives that buff) or *shudder* the Beastmaster (summon, summon, summon, damage(summon)).

I would agree that, at least in general, the "relevant design skills are transferable". But I think the kind of heroes required for either one can be very different; I intentionally submitted this Contest to get away from the preponderance of AoS-styled entries in these Contests, purposefully shaping it into a Hero Contest making Heroes for an RTS (I'm not averse, if people so decide for future Contests, to hosting/having an AoS-styled Contest. I just don't think the two should mix). It's what I prefer, it's what I feel I have some aptitude for.

Softmints said:
Gimmicks like the 220 attack range when melee would have been fine make it look like you're trying too hard. Don't add unnecessary exceptions.
I disagree that this was a 'gimmick'. I've essentially hero-ized an under-utilized element of the game; a short-ranged unit like the Spell Breaker or Mountain Giant (w/ War Club) or Huntress. I was striving to create a Pseudo-/Off[-Tank character, and that's precisely what a short, non-Melee attack range accomplishes (imagine a Hero based off of one of the aforementioned units with a Role defined that way; would you complain about such an attack range then?)

Softmints said:
Having looked through all the entries, I decided to de-emphasise "programming", and focus on "implementation". I have discussed in detail that your implementation was both frustrating and misleading in ways I wouldn't have even thought possible. It really is 0/10.
So... Given that you acknowledged putting a lot of emphasis on "implementation" into your judging on "Theme", I am confused as to why you would go to lengths to avoid
Softmints said:
... polluting the [score] ... and causing marks to be lost/gained/explained twice...
for Theme/Role & Balance, and yet not here?

My point is, you judged me harshly on my implementation in Theme. And then you go ahead and re-judge harshly for Coding.

As aforementioned, the Criteria weren't just "thrown together", and I am concerned for how boldly you modified them. Specifically, "Coding" was designated as Criteria because while a Hero may have excellent Thematic appeal, a cogent Role in design, is well-Balanced with Creative ideas/implementations & is just Awexome... It may yet have poor Coding. Or great Coding. The Coding thus deserves it's own Criteria, independent of the others.

(An argument can be made for "Coding" not being as important as the other Criteria (thus 10 pts = too 'powerful'), or that Coding is difficult to Judge on it doesn't need so much 'room' (thus 10 pts = too 'widespread'). I know; I made that argument. However, I was overruled.)

Softmints said:
The balance category in the contest is described as:

"Includes how well the hero's Theme, & Role fit into the melee environment in terms of balance, theme, style, complicatedness, and so forth. Overpowered or Underpowered Heroes will result in a poor score; properly balanced elements will mean a good score."
I decided to address theme/role exclusively in their own categories, rather than polluting the mark for balance with them and causing marks to be lost/gained/explained twice. I feel that was a fair choice, and not contradictory to the criteria.
...
Under role, most of my comments addressed whether a hero was "well-constructed", as any well-constructed hero will naturally settle into a role (providing there's no overlap within the race). Shadow Fury got my weakest mark here, since the hero has four AoE nukes. Sure it's effective, but the poor construction I described makes it unclear what the hero should be used for. Conversely, Wa666r and Cokemonkey11 got 10 (for construction), and equivalently their heroes' collective set of abilities do a great job conveying purpose to the player.
Much of my response to this is encapsulated in my preface. "Pollution" wasn't even an issue; T&R were to be considered in isolation, with "Balance" incorporating the two (& more) in a more holistic sense.

That being said, I'm very grateful for your examples of "the good, the bad, and the ugly" (in the bit about Role). As may be surmised from the Criteria descriptions, I'm a firm believer in providing the fundamentals, then providing examples of both good & bad; they really help illustrate a concept. I only wish you had done so for more than just that (& only when pressed for more information). : )

Softmints said:
I'm here to judge what's put in front of me. Other entries lost marks for shaky balance as well, but Presevation is irredeemably game-breaking. War Stomp is not even a close comparison.
I wouldn't mind a bit of explanation for that. I was unsure at first, but the more I think about it, the more I think War Stomp is an excellent comparison. Again, I don't think I had it "right", but what amounts to a ranged/targettable, weaker War Stomp? Makes sense to me.

Softmints said:
I could have discussed how the Archdruid fit the Night Elves like I did with most other entries, and maybe I would have felt there were a few marks to be had. But honestly? After a frustrating experience with trying to figure out the abilities and then seeing the numbers on the stun, I wasn't willing to invest any further time on it.
Well that's just unfortunate. :<

Softmints said:
I awarded marks for creative heroes, not creative implementations or looking up lists of hidden resources. Archdruid's abilities include an immolation variant and an AoE stun, with two others that are interesting but lack direction.
This I mentioned in my preface as well. Basically, "Creativity" is a fickle beast, and I submit that everything can be "boiled down" to their base components.

Cokemonkey11's Blessed Ranger (no offense, just one of his favorites) was basically an elven ranger (already in Wc3 with PotM) with a specialized/specific Searing Arrows (extra damage on Heroes, works once, multiple times on Heroes), a reverse-AoE-Cleaving Attack (healing nearby friendlies based on Ranger's attacks), a specialized/locational self-buff/Sentry (sight & damage/AGI near trees), and an Omnislash-esque ultimate (with some mobility thrown in).

But the thing is, I agree with you; his entry was Creative (as well as well-Themed & mechanically-sound & relatively-Balanced & well-Coded &, well, Awexome :p). Why? Because it brought a combination of those existing ("non-Creative") elements to the table that Warcraft hasn't seen before.

I feel the same is true for mine. Sure, it's a "variant of Immolation" (even though it is implemented in a radically different manner); but does Immolation deal Ranged damage, or 'scale' based on the number of nearby targets? Sure, it's an AoE Stun, but it's ranged/targeted (only Inferno does that, and that's an Ultimate/summon).

Many of the existing, in-game spells (to/for which all comparisons can profitably be made) are the same: Monsoon is a ranged/targeted Starfall, Spiked Carapace is a personal Thorns/Devotion Aura, Dark Ritual is a Death Pact for mana, Resurrect is a live-version of Animate Dead (get actual units back, but not Invulnerable)... Etc.

So I felt that was appropriate.

I appreciate the pseudo-compliment for Spore Cloud & Dreamscape, though.

Softmints said:
I'm not sure why "creative implementations" is even on the marking scheme. I'm supposed to award marks for good coding in one section, and the most roundabout possible implementations via object editor in another?
Not necessarily. "Good coding" can be independent of "creative OE junk". It's there for when people do it; I'm not sure I understand why it's an issue?

Softmints said:
Secondly, your design lacked direction. If you're aiming for a plane-swapping hero, make a hero about that. If you're aiming for a viral/plague hero in the vein of Spores, make a hero about that. If you're making a frontline tank, go ahead and do it. But Archdruid tries to be all of these things, and ends up being none of them. All the best entries had a clear purpose and executed on it.
(If I'm being pedantic, I'll point out that the first two ("plane-swapping" & "viral/plague") are not mutually exclusive with the third ("frontline tank"), the first two being more Thematic choices, with the latter being more a Role choice.)

That being said, I think it's clear I understand & agree with your prognosis on this count; this guy does a few too many things that aren't well-blended enough.

Softmints said:
If you are serious about design, start thinking about why you're doing what you're doing. If you don't know: ask, research, or experiment until you do. And you will have to keep trying, keep making heroes, and learn by doing.

//EDIT//
That you are willing to engage with this discussion and ask for clarification is a really good thing.
"Serious about design"? Well, I thought I was, and I try to be...

I've been making Heroes for a long time. Not for as long nor as prolifically as you, surely, but for some time since near the beginning of RoC. I've learned an awful lot, from a lot of people a lot smarter than me. And I've learned a lot through iteration (though not as much through play-testing as I would like).

But I hope that my comments might warrant some acknowledgement; what concessions I could grant to your points have not really been reciprocated. (I was about to post & realized you had Edited... So I had to re-read your whole post, lol. Anyway, found the Edit, and it gives a nod to what I was referring to here, so I've grayed it out. - Thanks) That being said, I will continue. I look forward to future Contests of this sort, and especially to seeing some entries from you (or even more Judging, lol). And as always, I look forward to your reply.

Respectfully,
Kyrbi0
 
Level 4
Joined
Nov 26, 2006
Messages
61
I deleted the map after I submitted it for testing. Not that it matters, I've long since stopped caring about the contest.

Consider me out or something, I don't care.

I wasn't sure if I'd made any changes since the contest, so I downloaded the zip from the poll, extracted my map, and then uploaded that.
 

Kyrbi0

Arena Moderator
Level 45
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
9,492
We're just waiting for the Rep; otherwise this thing is done. I don't mind entertaining conversation about the results & the Heroes, but it seems most people have moved on.

Have you (or anyone) not gotten Rep yet? I coulda sworn I messaged Ralle about it a while back...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top